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In an attempt to re-direct the thread that was locked yesterday, this post by nnunn, taken from the last page of that thread, may offer a new train of thought for readers and members. In his last sentence here, nunnn opens the possibility and it seems a topic worthy of discussion.

maryjo


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Hi katroofjebus,

I'm still very interested in your thoughts on section 40:5. This seems to cover all options for human survival, and each involves the activity of an Adjuster (40:5.4):
UB 40:5.4 wrote:
"Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension. And since the Thought Adjusters are the only spirits of fusion potential to be identified with man during the life in the flesh, the mortals of time and space are primarily classified in accordance with their relation to these divine gifts, the indwelling Mystery Monitors. This classification is as follows:

1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential." (40:5.4)


Also, thanks for mentioning the "probationary nurseries". The infants and young children who spend time as material beings in this remedial opportunity are discussed in more detail in paragraphs 49:6:11-14.

katroofjebus wrote:
nnunn wrote:
Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?

I think I already answered that. There are children with undeveloped souls who survive. How can an undeveloped soul survive without an associated immortal spirit endowment?

Notice that all such children either (1) have adjusters, or (2) ... "are reckoned as still attached to their parents.". So a question remains: do those infants "who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters" actually have their own morontia soul? If so, why are they salvaged as material beings in the system probationary nursery? And what do the authors mean by "still attached to their parents." ?!

UB 49:6.12 wrote:
"Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents." (49:6.11,12)

Regarding "an associated immortal spirit endowment", that's the reason I keep nudging you to consider section 40:5 ...

PS: Would you like to take this slightly technical side-issue to a new thread?
Nigel


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And here's Nigel's original inquiry and some responses related to this new thread of a very important and interesting topic and discussion (I've left out my own posts and kat's direct replies to me to keep the focus here on Nigel's and kat's dialogue/discussion):

Dear katroofjebus and Bradly,

Thanks for exploring the birth of the soul. Just wondering, with regard to human survival, do any papers mention mortal survival where an Adjuster was not involved in creating the soul of that survivor?

Paper 40 section 5 discusses various types of ascending mortals of time and space, and says something about various relationships with Adjusters,
UB 40:5 wrote:
(40:5.5) 1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
(40:5.6) 2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
(40:5.7) 3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential.

but I can't recall any mention of souls being born, except in association with an Adjuster.

Can anyone help with this?
Nigel

Kat replies:

nnunn wrote:
but I can't recall any mention of souls being born, except in association with an Adjuster.



"The Urantia Book describes the birth of a soul as entrance into the seventh psychic circle. We know in our current era that all souls are indwelt with Thought Adjusters, so the description in the Revelation includes the arrival of the Thought Adjuster. But prior to the gift of the Spirit of Truth not all souls are indwelt by Adjusters. If you read the next reference closely it states that prior to the presence of the Spirit of Truth, Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings, and only bona fide human beings have souls. Later I'll try to explain what a bona fide human being is, but bear with me.

(227.6) 20:5.3 Some order of Paradise Son must be bestowed upon each mortal-inhabited world in order to make it possible for Thought Adjusters to indwell the minds of all normal human beings on that sphere, for the Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings until the Spirit of Truth has been poured out upon all flesh; and the sending of the Spirit of Truth is dependent upon the return to universe headquarters of a Paradise Son who has successfully executed a mission of mortal bestowal upon an evolving world.

In the next set of references note that Thought Adjusters cannot enter the mind until it has been properly prepared. Part of that preparation is a morontia arena for the Thought Adjuster's indwelling, created by the encircuitment of the Holy Spirit, which is the soul. In the second paragraph it states that not even this morontia soul creation is sufficient to insure the reception of an Adjuster until the outpouring of the Spirit of Truth. This means it is possible to have a soul without an Adjuster. The requirement for a soul as three components: contact by all seven adjutants; a moral decision; and encircuitment by the Holy Spirit. That's it.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

(1187.2) 108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

Reading further, the Revelation explains that in those days of old before the Spirit of Truth was poured out, the Adjusters arrived to indwell the soul under several different circumstances. One of those conditions was entrance into the third psychic/cosmic circle. Entrance into any of the seven psychic/cosmic circles cannot be done without a soul because of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the soul supermind arena. Additionally, the psychic/cosmic circles are circles of soul growth due to bona fide personality choice.

(1187.6) 108:2.7 2. The attainment of the third circle of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment. I have observed Adjusters arrive in mortal minds upon the conquest of the third circle even before such an accomplishment could be signalized to the local universe personalities concerned with such matters.

And then I appeal to logic. If prior to Pentecost not every personality was indwelt with an Adjuster, and if the possession of a soul is impossible without an Adjuster, then an absolute enormous number of personalities would have no chance of survival until 2,000 years ago. That makes no sense especially since we know that in order to be called a bona fide human being one must have personality, contact with all seven adjutants and contact with the Holy Spirit, which all add up to a soul, and it is the soul which assures survival, continuing life. If the creatures roaming our planet prior to Pentecost did not have souls, they would not be considered humans, they would be animals or possibly pre-humans. The Holy Spirit, the source of soul supermind, appears in all bona fide human personalities. Reference:

(1003.4) 92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit — this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.

What makes a personality bona fide in the eyes of the universe? It's the first bona fide functioning of the power of free-will choice in making a moral decision. In other words, the birth of the soul, which is entrance into the seventh psychic/cosmic circle. When an individual's personality begins to truly function, as described in the reference below, it is utilizing its free will to make moral decisions with cosmic potential, and that gives personality bona fides. The soul is the result, and again, the soul contains the Holy Spirit who appears in all bona fide personalities, but prior to the Spirit of Truth, not all of those souls had Thought Adjusters indwelling them.

(1209:1) 110:6.1 The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality. Entrance upon the seventh circle marks the beginning of true human personality function. Completion of the first circle denotes the relative maturity of the mortal being. Though the traversal of the seven circles of cosmic growth does not equal fusion with the Adjuster, the mastery of these circles marks the attainment of those steps which are preliminary to Adjuster fusion.

I hope you have been able to follow me and connect the dots. The take-home message is that Thought Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings (prior to Pentecost), and in order to be considered a bona fide human being, there must be a soul."


Nigel Responds:

Hi katroofjebus - thanks for your attempt to explain all this!

You may have missed my question earlier?

First, can we assume that survival of humans from this world requires a soul? From what the Urantia Book reveals, this seems to be the case. If so, can you point me to any mention of the possibility of mortal survival, without the involvement of an Adjuster? In each of the three cases discussed in Paper 40 section 5, survival appears to be dependent on a relationship (either temporary or permanent) with an Adjuster. See 40:5.5
UB 40:5.5 wrote:
(40:5.5) 1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
(40:5.6) 2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
(40:5.7) 3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential.

So I repeat my question: can a soul exist without the presence and action of an Adjuster?

You asked me to try and join the dots. When I try, I see a picture slightly different than yours. Recall that extraordinary description in 36:5.4, of the 7 adjutant circuits as a level of consciousness (36:5.4) of the Divine Minister. As I understand it, the Holy Spirit is also a level of her consciousness, tuned perfectly to minister to bona fide humans. Recall also that a "human" is defined to be that animal which can interface with all 7 circuits of her adjutant interface.

Now, you ask "where would the Holy Spirit reside, if not in our soul?"

As I understand it, the Holy Spirit is the Divine Minister's first super adjutant ministry to ascending humans. That is to say, the Holy Spirit is her personal spiritual ministry TO us, not any sort of indwelling OF our soul.

With such abundant and loving ministry in place, from 34:5.4,
UB 34:5.4 wrote:
"When mind is thus endowed with the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it possesses the capacity for (consciously or unconsciously) choosing the spiritual presence of the Universal Father—the Thought Adjuster." (34:5.4)

It's her personal ministry that makes it possible for bona fide humans to make their first truly moral choice. And it's this choice -- this act of personal will -- that an Adjuster can literally convert into a morontia fiber, a first thread in the tapestry which will become our soul.


thanks all for such a great discussion!
Nigel

And Kat replies:

nnunn wrote:
If so, can you point me to any mention of the possibility of mortal survival, without the involvement of an Adjuster?


"There are child survivors who never had Adjusters And that is an interesting thing to consider because some of them survive without souls. Here's where I will make an assumption though, prior to Pentecost I imagine adults with souls but without Thought Adjusters did survive in order to give them time to acquire one, just like the children.

There’s a reference to a borderline type of mortal who lived in the early pre-Pentecost age of the planet who had the capacity for a Thought Adjuster (one assumes a soul is necessary for such capacity of reception), yet they didn’t receive one until they asked for one. In this case, indicated in the reference below, indwelling is not immediate at the birth of the soul, which is what we were also told in (1187.1) 108:2.2.

(1198.2) 109:3.7 In many of the early evolutionary races of Urantia, three groups of beings existed. There were those who were so animalistic that they were utterly lacking in Adjuster capacity. There were those who exhibited undoubted capacity for Adjusters and promptly received them when the age of moral responsibility was attained. There was a third class who occupied a borderline position; they had capacity for Adjuster reception, but the Monitors could only indwell the mind on the personal petition of the individual.

The Revelation describes 6 different conditions in which the Thought Adjusters arrive in these souls and most have to do with intention, which I interpret as a form of petition. It’s also interesting to note that in one of the conditions it specifically mentions conquest of the third circle. It’s not possible to get to the third circle without a soul. Here we have a pre-Pentecostal individual laboring through the psychic/cosmic circles and making spiritual achievements, all without a Thought Adjuster, and you think if that person dies prior to Adjuster arrival would be unqualified to survive, survival denied? That makes no sense to me.

(1209:3) 110:6.3 The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement.

(1187.6) 108:2.7 2. The attainment of the third circle of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment. I have observed Adjusters arrive in mortal minds upon the conquest of the third circle even before such an accomplishment could be signalized to the local universe personalities concerned with such matters.

But to be honest, the Revelation doesn't tell us much about pre-Pentecost souls other than the fact that not all of them had Thought Adjusters even though they had souls. I think the Revelation is mostly geared to the current and future ages thus the authors emphasize what current and future mortals face in regards to survival, and all of whom old enough to read the Revelation would have Thought Adjusters."

Kat continues:

nnunn wrote:
So I repeat my question: can a soul exist without the presence and action of an Adjuster?


"Yes, I think I gave rather explicit evidence in regards to the Adjusterless soul making a third circle conquest. Perhaps there is another way to express this. Please note, if you wish, that the references below describe the steps of soul formation, then it is remarked that not all souls received Thought Adjusters in those pre-Pentecost days. The first paragraph describes how the mind is prepared for the Thought Adjuster by formation of the soul. The second paragraph states that "such minds", prepared for a Thought Adjuster did not always receive one. The preparation they are speaking of is the receiving arena known as soul, a supermaterial level of mind, or supermind.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

(1187.2) 108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

Here are the steps in soul birth, or formation, outlined in the reference above:

The mind is prepared first by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind spirits.
All seven adjutants must be coordinated and functioning before anything can happen
In order for all seven adjutants to be considered coordinated there must first be worship outreach followed by wisdom functioning.
Wisdom functioning is exhibited when the personality chooses between good and evil, a moral choice.
The instant wisdom begins to function it signals the Universe Mother Spirit.
The Universe Mother Spirit then immediately encircuits the mind with the Holy Spirit providing the superadjutant, supermaterial supermind within which is her personal presence.
A soul is now born, a morontia space filled by the material decision and the spirit's contribution, a co-creation.
This is a soul which has begun its premorontia career in the seventh psychic/cosmic circle, and once a soul is born it begins to grown in and of itself.
If this soul is born in post-Pentecostal times it is fortunate because it also receives the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjuster.
But not all pre-Pentecostal souls automatically got Thought Adjusters at soul birth. More is required of them for some reason.
Nevertheless, even without an Adjuster, at this point the personality has a dual mind with which to work out its circle conquests.
The soul also has a spirit presence, the Holy Spirit, for guidance and to spiritualize thoughts which are consciously lodged in her supermind, the liaison space which overlaps the two higher adjutants who continue to direct the material mind in that direction, towards the higher mind (supermind,soul).

Now I ask you, do you believe a soul, prior to Pentecost, which has been encircuited by the Holy Spirit would be denied survival? 40:5.4 states: "Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension," I think the Holy Spirit qualifies as a Spirit Deity for identification. And although my experience and understanding of the nature of God the Father is limited, what I do know of him tells me he would never deny survival to anyone who has morally chosen to do something acceptable enough for the Holy Spirit to encircuit and provide with a supermind, regardless of the presence or absence of a Thought Adjuster. It's not logical to think that such a mind and personality would not survive and be given the opportunity, just like nursery children some of whom don't even have souls, the opportunity to attain a Thought Adjuster or at least become Spirit or Son-fused."

Kat replies further:

nnunn wrote:
As I understand it, the Holy Spirit is the Divine Minister's first super adjutant ministry to ascending humans. That is to say, the Holy Spirit is her personal spiritual ministry TO us, not any sort of indwelling OF our soul.


"The Holy Spirit is supermaterial and is not part of the material adjutant mind ministry which does indwell the mind (See (1187.1) 108:2.2). Yet the Holy Spirit circuit overlaps the higher adjutant ministry, which does indwell the mind. This means either the adjutant ministry is both indwelling and out-dwelling, or the Holy Spirit ministry is both indwelling and out-dwelling, or both indwell. And here is where it becomes a bit of a paradox because mortals have two minds, a material mind and a supermaterial morontia mind.

The Holy Spirit is a dual presence, a package deal of both mind ministry and spirit personality presence. Her supermind ministry overlaps the two higher adjutants within her spirit circuit, but her actual spirit personality presence cannot do that. The personal presence of the Divine Minister, known as the Holy Spirit, resides in the soul. Incidentally, the Holy Spirit's package deal is similar to the Spirit of Truth's, who is both the mind of Michael and the spirit personality presence of Michael. The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth are similar in another way in that they are actually both dual spirits. And for those who may not know, the Holy Spirit consists of the Creative Spirit and the Infinite Spirit; and the Spirit of Truth consists of the Creator Son and the Universal Father.

(2062.5) 194:2.16 4. The spirit of the Universal Father and the Creator Son — the Spirit of Truth, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Son.

(2062.6) 194:2.17 5. The spirit of the Infinite Spirit and the Universe Mother Spirit — the Holy Spirit, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Spirit.

And lest you think the Holy Spirit is not a spirit personality presence refer to the first reference below which also reveals that she appears in man. The adjutants are not personal so they cannot accommodate spirit personality presence; the adjutants are the mind-spirit presence of the Divine Minister as delineated in the second reference below, and not spirit-personality presence.

(403.4) 36:5.16 The adjutant mind-spirits are in no manner directly related to the diverse and highly spiritual function of the spirit of the personal presence of the Divine Minister, the Holy Spirit of the inhabited worlds; but they are functionally antecedent to, and preparatory for, the appearance of this very spirit in evolutionary man.

(2062.7) 194:2.18 6. The mind-spirit of the Universe Mother Spirit — the seven adjutant mind-spirits of the local universe.

Another reason the Holy Spirit must be within the soul is because the Spirit of Truth is within the soul and she provides his locus. Neither are integral parts of the soul that can't be separated, and for that matter, the indwelling Thought Adjuster is not an integral, non-separable part of the soul either. I provided only one of many references below which states the Spirit of Truth lives IN man (more if you insist), and another two references which explain how the Spirit of Truth needs the Holy Spirit in order to be in two or more places at the same time. If the Spirit of Truth is IN man, then the Holy Spirit must also be IN man or he can't function but in one person at a time. But where IN man? In the last reference below Jesus explains to Judas Alpheus, in simple to understand language, that his Spirit of Truth will be living in every soul who loves him, and if the Spirit of Truth is in the soul, the Holy Spirit must be there with him, according to the other two references.

(2060.6) 194:2.1 Jesus lived on earth and taught a gospel which redeemed man from the superstition that he was a child of the devil and elevated him to the dignity of a faith son of God. Jesus’ message, as he preached it and lived it in his day, was an effective solvent for man’s spiritual difficulties in that day of its statement. And now that he has personally left the world, he sends in his place his Spirit of Truth, who is designed to live in man and, for each new generation, to restate the Jesus message so that every new group of mortals to appear upon the face of the earth shall have a new and up-to-date version of the gospel, just such personal enlightenment and group guidance as will prove to be an effective solvent for man’s ever-new and varied spiritual difficulties."

(377.10) 34:4.6 The Creator Son may come and go; his personal presence may be in the local universe or elsewhere; yet the Spirit of Truth functions undisturbed, for this divine presence, while derived from the personality of the Creator Son, is functionally centered in the person of the Divine Minister.

(378.1) 34:4.7 The Universe Mother Spirit, however, never leaves the local universe headquarters world. The spirit of the Creator Son may and does function independently of the personal presence of the Son, but not so with her personal spirit. The Holy Spirit of the Divine Minister would become nonfunctional if her personal presence should be removed from Salvington. Her spirit presence seems to be fixed on the universe headquarters world, and it is this very fact that enables the spirit of the Creator Son to function independently of the whereabouts of the Son. The Universe Mother Spirit acts as the universe focus and center of the Spirit of Truth as well as of her own personal influence, the Holy Spirit.

(1949.1) 180:4.5 Jesus looked down upon them all, smiled, and said: “My little children, I am going away, going back to my Father. In a little while you will not see me as you do here, as flesh and blood. In a very short time I am going to send you my spirit, just like me except for this material body. This new teacher is the Spirit of Truth who will live with each one of you, in your hearts, and so will all the children of light be made one and be drawn toward one another. And in this very manner will my Father and I be able to live in the souls of each one of you and also in the hearts of all other men who love us and make that love real in their experiences by loving one another, even as I am now loving you.”

Kat continues:

nnunn wrote:
It's her personal ministry that makes it possible for bona fide humans to make their first truly moral choice.


"Firstly, humans aren't bona fide until they make their first truly moral choice under the direction of the adjutant of wisdom. Think of Andon and Fonta. Also, there's a list of considerations for Thought Adjusters before they elect to indwell a human. The first one is the capacity to become a bona fide will creature by giving the spirit of wisdom an opportunity to function. No moral choice, no bona fides. Moral choice comes first. Reference:

(1186.1) 108:1.3 The volunteering Adjuster is particularly interested in three qualifications of the human candidate:
(1186.2) 108:1.4 1. Intellectual capacity. Is the mind normal? What is the intellectual potential, the intelligence capacity? Can the individual develop into a bona fide will creature? Will wisdom have an opportunity to function?

Secondly, I suppose you’re basing your conclusion on the reference which tells us that the Holy Spirit enables the mind to choose the spiritual presence of the Thought Adjuster. The spiritual presence of the Thought Adjuster is the spiritual father of the soul, the decisions of the material mind is the mother. Moral decisions which contribute to either the birth or growth of soul have their origins in the material adjutant mind, and this is necessary in order to provide the dual ingredients which make up the morontia soul. If the Holy Spirit is providing the mind ministry to make a moral choice, where is the material input coming from? The Holy Spirit is supermaterial.

Additionally, choosing the Thought Adjuster’s presence has to do with God-consciousness. The reason why the Holy Spirit enables the mind to choose the Father’s presence is because she is the provider of soul intelligence which allows consciousness of the soul and the multiple spirit presences who live there, including herself.

As I pointed out in a previous post, the first moral choice must occur prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit because it is the actuated proof that the seventh adjutant of wisdom is indeed functioning. The adjutants merely urge and prod mind to seek higher realms of thought. But it’s not enough that the mind decides to submit to the urge to think in the direction of God, it requires the personality to actually reach out through it's own free will and act upon that directionalized thinking.

As we've been shown in the case of Andon and Fonta, an action is required to prove the presence of bona fide human free will. This is done by choosing wisely according to the spirit of wisdom which has urged the mind to seek higher options. It takes two steps: activation of the seventh adjutant by making contact, and moral free-will choice to follow its directional urging. This final step is necessary to signal the coming of the Holy Spirit's supermaterial mind ministry and her personal presence, a package deal, which reaches down as the personality choses to reach up, proven by its actions to actually move in that direction. (Recall the decision of the twins to move, then actually packing up and going before the announcement was made that bona fide human will had appeared on Urantia. )

Please note in the references below that it wasn't until after the decision to flee was made that there was a new mobilization of the seven adjutants. This means that all seven adjutants had been activated and chosen in order to prepare the way for the Holy Spirit, a new mind circuit of overlapping ministry on the planet. The announcement of the presence of bona fide human will on Urantia did not occur until after this mobilization and that is because bona fide human will indicates the presence of the Holy Spirit and a soul.

Bona fide human will is human will recognized by the universe as freely functional, meaning able to utilize wisdom in order to engage in ascending thought and eventually choose the Father thus becoming sons. A soul establishes the arena for the relationship of Father and son, even without an Adjuster, since the Holy Spirit provides the supermind ministry for God-consciousness. If an Adjuster’s presence is not immediately forthcoming, as in pre-Pentecostal souls, God-consciousness becomes the personal presence of the Holy Spirit until such time that he does arrive because God-consciousness resides IN the indwelling spirit, not in the adjutant mind, as indicated in the last reference below."

(709.6) 62:6.5 We knew that something closely akin to human mind was approaching culmination; and when, about a year later, they finally resolved, as a result of meditative thought and purposeful decision, to flee from home and journey north, then did the spirit of wisdom begin to function on Urantia and in these two now recognized human minds.

(709.7) 62:6.6 There was an immediate and new order of mobilization of the seven adjutant mind-spirits. We were alive with expectation; we realized that the long-waited-for hour was approaching; we knew we were upon the threshold of the realization of our protracted effort to evolve will creatures on Urantia.

(2095.7) 196:3.23 The God-consciousness is resident in the indwelling spirit.

Maryjo has posted Nigel's last query above. Hope the context helps. I learned many new things personally about the Holy Spirit and related ministry. When and how does soul begin and emerge and grow and come to dominate our mortal identities? Important information I think. I am going to begin a topic on "Evolutionary Religion & Religious Experience" soon to also consider the connections and growth of personal and social religion without or prior to the Adjuster connection. While very related to this topic, perhaps it is best to stay focused more specifically on Nigel's original question about the Adjuster and the soul here:

"Thanks for exploring the birth of the soul. Just wondering, with regard to human survival, do any papers mention mortal survival where an Adjuster was not involved in creating the soul of that survivor?

Paper 40 section 5 discusses various types of ascending mortals of time and space, and says something about various relationships with Adjusters,
UB 40:5 wrote:
(40:5.5) 1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
(40:5.6) 2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
(40:5.7) 3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential.

but I can't recall any mention of souls being born, except in association with an Adjuster.

Can anyone help with this?"

Nigel


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri May 31, 2019 8:22 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Thanks Maryjo for transporting Nigel's request.

Nigel, thank you for nudging me to read Paper 40 again. I'd like to point out a few details that you may not have noticed. Firstly, the Paper is written by a Mighty Messenger whose audience is clearly the current post-Pentecostal Urantian reader. He mentions the word "you" or "your" 85 times. Secondly, section 5 is describing classification of mortals in relation to Adjusters, it is not classifying all mortals. Please take particular note in the reference below to the word "primarily". The Might Messenger is saying that for the most part, but not all, mortals are classified in relation to the Thought Adjuster.

(445.5) 40:5.4 Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension. And since the Thought Adjusters are the only spirits of fusion potential to be identified with man during the life in the flesh, the mortals of time and space are primarily classified in accordance with their relation to these divine gifts[/u], the indwelling Mystery Monitors. This classification is as follows:

Additionally, note in the description of the series one mortals only those personalities who receive Thought Adjusters are mentioned, most likely due to the fact that this classification has to do only with mortals in relation to Adjusters. Elsewhere in the Revelation we are given more information concerning the early stages of inhabited planets which describes Adjusterless personalities traversing psychic circles who do not fit into this series mentioned by the Mighty Messenger until they fulfill one of six criteria.

It is impossible for me to accept, as I know you would like me to, that a personality living during those early phases of planetary evolution, who is spiritualizing the personality by conquering psychic/cosmic circles, and suddenly dies before receiving an Adjuster, will cease to exist as an identity. It is inconceivable that the universe will annihilate an identity for the simple reason it had no contact with an Adjuster. That is totally inconsistent with both the epochal revelation and my personal revelation. And because it is unthinkable, I'm convinced there must be a mechanism whereby the Father salvages these progressing souls since we know that every single personality, every will-creature, will have one final opportunity to make a final and conscious choice for survival. The reference below mentions nothing about indwelling Adjusters but it does mention "any being of personality status".

(1233.5) 112:5.9 This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.


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To make the discussion easier to follow, here is my post from 31 May, with embedded links for reference.
Thanks to maryjo and Bradly!
Nigel

- - - - -

Hi katroofjebus,

I'm still very interested in your thoughts on section 40:5. This seems to cover all options for human survival, and each involves the activity of an Adjuster (40:5.4):

UB 40:5.4 wrote:
"Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension. And since the Thought Adjusters are the only spirits of fusion potential to be identified with man during the life in the flesh, the mortals of time and space are primarily classified in accordance with their relation to these divine gifts, the indwelling Mystery Monitors. This classification is as follows:

1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential."
(40:5.4)


Also, thanks for mentioning the "probationary nurseries". The infants and young children who spend time as material beings in this remedial opportunity are discussed in more detail in paragraphs 49:6:11-14.

katroofjebus wrote:
nnunn wrote:
Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?

I think I already answered that. There are children with undeveloped souls who survive. How can an undeveloped soul survive without an associated immortal spirit endowment?

Notice that all such children either (1) have adjusters, or (2) ... "are reckoned as still attached to their parents." So a question remains: do those infants "who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters" actually have their own morontia soul? If so, why are they salvaged as material beings in the system probationary nursery? And what do the authors mean by "still attached to their parents." ?!

UB 49:6.12 wrote:
"Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents." (49:6.11,12)

Regarding "an associated immortal spirit endowment", that's the reason I keep nudging you to consider section 40:5 ...

Nigel


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Great topic that dives into some details that would otherwise be easy to ignore. For what it's worth, I've always interpreted the statement "in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents" as meaning if either parent is resurrected to the Mansion Worlds, the child will also be.


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Things get complicated here for me:

Quote:
49:6.13 (570.2) In due course Thought Adjusters come to indwell these little ones, while the seraphic ministry to both groups of the probationary-dependent orders of survival is in general similar to that of the more advanced parent or is equivalent to that of the parent in case only one survives. Those attaining the third circle, regardless of the status of their parents, are accorded personal guardians.


I was under the impression all humans survive death. But in the above, the author seems to imply the possibility that an adult human could fail to survive death. Or am I incorrectly reading it?

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


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The issues here are whether souls are co-created by the TA and the mortal mind or by the Holy Spirit and the mortal mind and when the mortal mind first receives the spirit ministry of the Holy Spirit. These issues also relate to the definition of and function of evolutionary religion within the individual mind and how we are prepared experientially for giving birth to soul...regardless of its parentage.

Here are some of Kat's points as organized and presented by the author and listed above and at the original post and topic (now locked):

"The mind is prepared first by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind spirits.
All seven adjutants must be coordinated and functioning before anything can happen
In order for all seven adjutants to be considered coordinated there must first be worship outreach followed by wisdom functioning.
Wisdom functioning is exhibited when the personality chooses between good and evil, a moral choice.
The instant wisdom begins to function it signals the Universe Mother Spirit.
The Universe Mother Spirit then immediately encircuits the mind with the Holy Spirit providing the superadjutant, supermaterial supermind within which is her personal presence.
A soul is now born, a morontia space filled by the material decision and the spirit's contribution, a co-creation.
This is a soul which has begun its premorontia career in the seventh psychic/cosmic circle, and once a soul is born it begins to grown in and of itself.
If this soul is born in post-Pentecostal times it is fortunate because it also receives the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjuster.
But not all pre-Pentecostal souls automatically got Thought Adjusters at soul birth. More is required of them for some reason.
Nevertheless, even without an Adjuster, at this point the personality has a dual mind with which to work out its circle conquests.
The soul also has a spirit presence, the Holy Spirit, for guidance and to spiritualize thoughts which are consciously lodged in her supermind, the liaison space which overlaps the two higher adjutants who continue to direct the material mind in that direction, towards the higher mind (supermind,soul)."


Like Nigel, I've always thought it is the TA that is the co-parent of soul. And like Kat, I've always believed in the universal preservation of potential and mercy ministry leading to the morontial survival of very large numbers of people...even primitive peoples. But I also know there can be no survival without soul...the mortal's morontial being.

So....I am personally very keen for this discussion and discovery of when does the Holy Spirit begin her ministry to human mind and what is the mechanism for birth of soul and are there souls without or prior to TA endowment? While I remain open minded about the issues, I will present some text which supports my current view of TA as co-parent...this was posted by Nigel at another Forum discussion considering the same issues:

(5:2.5) “[…]. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, …” (65.1, 5:2.5)

(5:5.13) “[…]. The indwelling of the Mystery Monitor constitutes the inception and insures the possibility of the potential of growth and survival of the immortal soul.” (69.8, 5:5.13)

(5:5.14) “[…]. A human mind discerning right and wrong and possessing the capacity to worship God, in union with a divine Adjuster, is all that is required in that mortal to initiate and foster the production of his immortal soul of survival qualities …” (70.1, 5:5.14)

(5:6.7) “[…]. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.” (71.2, 5:6.7)

(37:5.1) “[…]. During this temporary sojourn they foster the evolution of an immortal soul just as in those beings with whom they hope to fuse, […]” (410.4, 37:5.1)

(40:9.2) “[…]. During this temporary sojourn the Adjusters effectively build up the same spirit counterpart of mortal nature — the soul — that they do in the candidates for Adjuster fusion. […]” (450.4, 40:9.2)

(48:6.2) “You should understand that the morontia life of an ascending mortal is really initiated on the inhabited worlds at the conception of the soul, at that moment when the creature mind of moral status is indwelt by the spirit Adjuster. […]” (551.7, 48:6.2)

(86:5.2) “[…]. As civilization advances, this superstitious concept of the soul is destroyed, and man is wholly dependent on revelation and personal religious experience for his new idea of the soul as the joint creation of the God-knowing mortal mind and its indwelling divine spirit, the Thought Adjuster.” (954.1, 86:5.2)

(111:2.2) “The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings — a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.” (1217.6, 111:2.2)

(111:3.1) “The mistakes of mortal mind and the errors of human conduct may markedly delay the evolution of the soul, although they cannot inhibit such a morontia phenomenon when once it has been initiated by the indwelling Adjuster with the consent of the creature will. […]” (1218.9, 111:3.1)

(112:5.12) “[…]. This newly appearing entity is the soul, and it survives the death of both your physical body and your material mind. This entity is the conjoint child of the combined life and efforts of the human you in liaison with the divine you, the Adjuster.” (1234.1, 112:5.12)

(117:5.3) “The evolving immortal soul of man, the joint creation of the material mind and the Adjuster, […]” (1286.1, 117:5.3)


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Things get complicated here for me:

Quote:
49:6.13 (570.2) In due course Thought Adjusters come to indwell these little ones, while the seraphic ministry to both groups of the probationary-dependent orders of survival is in general similar to that of the more advanced parent or is equivalent to that of the parent in case only one survives. Those attaining the third circle, regardless of the status of their parents, are accorded personal guardians.


I was under the impression all humans survive death. But in the above, the author seems to imply the possibility that an adult human could fail to survive death. Or am I incorrectly reading it?


It is evidently possible. The opinions of students varies widely as to how common non-survival is for humans in this brief life. I am of the belief that survival is very common due to the preservation of potential and the near endless mercy credits and Divine affection and patience and forgiveness attributes of Deity and the fact we are told no one fails to survive due to ignorance, doubts, fear, incorrect beliefs, immaturity, poor judgment, or the "age appropriate" behaviors of the universe infants which we are. We are told that we must knowingly and willingly make final and absolute choices of sin embrace and iniquity sufficient to self erase and terminate our very being...or we survive. A soul may not be so easy to grow but it is also not so easy to destroy! But people may embrace iniquity sufficiently to destroy their soul and not survive the slumber and judgement to come.

But do note that in the quote you posted the issue is the level of seraphic ministry these little ones receive...the same as their highest circle achieving parent or their personal guardian upon the child attaining the third circle....survival is not the issue in this quote...just level of guardian angels - group or personal?

The question of children's survival based on their parent's survival is the quote before:

49:6.12 (570.1) Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents.

This means that pre-soul children (soul is the morontia being that can survive mortal death) who die will awaken in the mansion world nursery at the same time their first parent who awakens from the slumber of death on the mansion worlds awakens. So if a child has 2 parents who await a dispensational, group resurrection, the child will also awaken then. If a child has one or both parents that are third circlers and awaken after a 3 day slumber, then so will the child. What might be inferred if one were so inclined is the question...what if neither parent survives? Hmmmm…..

To me, this simply indicates how rare such a contingency might exist. Not often I do not think. At least no since Pentecost. Prior to that? Pure speculation but I remain convinced about the "flicker" and preservation of all potential. We shall see....

8)


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