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26:5.3 "But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing - absolutely nothing - is impossible.”"

39:5.9 "man's appreciation of the truth that uncertainty (I will say in contradistinction towards that restive assurance you defined) is the secret of contented continuity."

103:8.5 "The certainty (or assurance) of the God-knowing religionist should not be disturbed by the uncertainty of the doubting materialist; rather should the uncertainty of the unbeliever be mightily challenged by the profound faith and unshakable certainty of the experiential believer." Ok I give you a point here.

But what about this one 108:6.8 "you humans have begun an endless unfolding of an .... sublime uncertainty .... ."

In your spiel about assurance you reject anxiety and other causational factors of human action. But the Urantia Book condones anxiety as healthy if man is transcendant of his own dilemma. [111:6.1]

Therefore you will have to attain your assurances, or your faith-assurance, even though as a surveyor, as one who observes the universe, seeing many many possible outcomes and looking for a new time in the age of the Supreme where unknown possibilities may be accessible to the setnient ones of the outer universe.

I watched "Donnie Darko" when I was in college, and my group of friends explained it to me, that the dichotomous implicity of evil being defined "as a result of non-conformity to the socially perscribed good", is unacceptible. Let the goodness of good be discovered independently and people will love it more. Therefore I rule in my heart that anxiety and uncertainty, the things you describe which go against assurance, are quite healthy "if a man is capable of wresting disappointment from the jaws of defeat", and that the assurance you have found is something that is not completely rational. Therefore I am really not concerned if your faith is true, but rather how to transform fear and anxiety into work of a personal kind, teach patience to children in the midst of their uncertainties.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
26:5.3 "But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing - absolutely nothing - is impossible.”"

39:5.9 "man's appreciation of the truth that uncertainty (I will say in contradistinction towards that restive assurance you defined) is the secret of contented continuity."

103:8.5 "The certainty (or assurance) of the God-knowing religionist should not be disturbed by the uncertainty of the doubting materialist; rather should the uncertainty of the unbeliever be mightily challenged by the profound faith and unshakable certainty of the experiential believer." Ok I give you a point here.

But what about this one 108:6.8 "you humans have begun an endless unfolding of an .... sublime uncertainty .... ."

In your spiel about assurance you reject anxiety and other causational factors of human action. But the Urantia Book condones anxiety as healthy if man is transcendant of his own dilemma. [111:6.1]

Therefore you will have to attain your assurances, or your faith-assurance, even though as a surveyor, as one who observes the universe, seeing many many possible outcomes and looking for a new time in the age of the Supreme where unknown possibilities may be accessible to the setnient ones of the outer universe.

I watched "Donnie Darko" when I was in college, and my group of friends explained it to me, that the dichotomous implicity of evil being defined "as a result of non-conformity to the socially perscribed good", is unacceptible. Let the goodness of good be discovered independently and people will love it more. Therefore I rule in my heart that anxiety and uncertainty, the things you describe which go against assurance, are quite healthy "if a man is capable of wresting disappointment from the jaws of defeat", and that the assurance you have found is something that is not completely rational. Therefore I am really not concerned if your faith is true, but rather how to transform fear and anxiety into work of a personal kind, teach patience to children in the midst of their uncertainties.


My "spiel"???? So you did not enjoy or believe the topical presentations, opinions, and text about "assurance" then?

Hmmmm…….

spiel
[spēl, SHpēl]

NOUN
a long or fast speech or story, typically one intended as a means of persuasion or as an excuse but regarded with skepticism or contempt by those who hear it.

synonyms:
speech · line · patter · pitch · sales pitch · monologue · rigmarole · story · saga



I look forward to text support of anything positive about "anxiety". Here's a little related mota:

48:7.21 (557.5) 19. Anxiety must be abandoned. The disappointments hardest to bear are those which never come.

As to the reference you posted (thank you) (and see below), I am uncertain you understand it as I don't think it is saying anxiety is good but only normal, if immature and counterproductive. But much is normal to the material mind and self that is to be overcome and out grown and abandoned as we mature and grow in faith and wisdom...as I understand it. The text you referenced most definitely does NOT condone "anxiety as being healthy" (your claim above)....not even a little bit! Read the quote again please.

111:6.1 (1221.8) Many of the temporal troubles of mortal man grow out of his twofold relation to the cosmos. Man is a part of nature—he exists in nature—and yet he is able to transcend nature. Man is finite, but he is indwelt by a spark of infinity. Such a dual situation not only provides the potential for evil but also engenders many social and moral situations fraught with much uncertainty and not a little anxiety.

Uncertainty is not anxiety...it is often the cause of anxiety. We are taught we need to embrace and relish uncertainty, not anxiety. There can be no insight, intuition, discovery, problem solving, metaphysics, or adventure without uncertainty. Uncertainty merely means unknown outcomes from our current position in time and space or knowledge and understanding. It is a pivotal lesson which must be learned in the teaching of the act is ours but the consequences are God's. Outcomes are neither pre-determined (even to the gods and creators and Deity and Divinity) even if to those who abide in eternity outcomes may be pre-known, still are they not pre-determined - another paradox for the mortal mind! Free will means undetermined and unpredictable and uncertain outcomes.

Anxiety, like disappointment, does have purpose...it is to teach us of its own unworthiness and it must be overcome. Uncertainty is to be embraced as the doorway of adventure itself...the adventure of the unknown but without fear and anxiety of outcomes which are to be placed in God's most capable and caring hands. I hope you and others can discern this important difference?! For it is profoundly important. You should not embrace nor endorse anxiety. Anxiety merely demonstrates a lack of faith in God's power, purpose, and plan...it is a personal doubt about long term outcomes.

Remember the Master's many teachings on anxiety and doubt - what does it matter if all material things should crash about us? The lilies do not toil nor worry. If the birds fear not, why do we fear for our material needs? Or our spiritual ones? The more faith we have, the less fear and anxiety we have. To uphold anxiety is to denigrate faith itself and embrace immaturity...or so it appears to me.

keyword search for "anxiety":

https://truthbook.com/search/UBParagrap ... &start=all

9:5.7 Too often, all too often, you mar your minds by insincerity and sear them with unrighteousness; you subject them to animal fear and distort them by useless anxiety. Therefore, though the source of mind is divine, mind as you know it on your world of ascension can hardly become the object of great admiration, much less of adoration or worship. The contemplation of the immature and inactive human intellect should lead only to reactions of humility.

108:6.2 No matter what the previous status of the inhabitants of a world, subsequent to the bestowal of a divine Son and after the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth upon all humans, the Adjusters flock to such a world to indwell the minds of all normal will creatures. Following the completion of the mission of a Paradise bestowal Son, these Monitors truly become the “ kingdom of heaven within you.” Through the bestowal of the divine gifts the Father makes the closest possible approach to sin and evil, for it is literally true that the Adjuster must coexist in the mortal mind even in the very midst of human unrighteousness. The indwelling Adjusters are particularly tormented by those thoughts which are purely sordid and selfish; they are distressed by irreverence for that which is beautiful and divine, and they are virtually thwarted in their work by many of man's foolish animal fears and childish anxieties.

140:8.3 Jesus made clear to the three the difference between the requirements of apostleship and discipleship. And even then he did not forbid the exercise of prudence and foresight by the twelve. What he preached against was not forethought but anxiety, worry. He taught the active and alert submission to God's will. In answer to many of their questions regarding frugality and thriftiness, he simply called attention to his life as carpenter, boatmaker, and fisherman, and to his careful organization of the twelve. He sought to make it clear that the world is not to be regarded as an enemy; that the circumstances of life constitute a divine dispensation working along with the children of God.

keyword search for "uncertainty":

https://truthbook.com/search/UBParagrap ... &start=all


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
But the Urantia Book condones anxiety as healthy if man is transcendant of his own dilemma. [111:6.1]


I agree. Anxiety is a natural state of mind and it certainly does have a positive purpose as an integral part of the hammer and anvil approach to evolution. It is written that painful anxiety actually institutes essential evolutionary adaptations. Anxiety is part of the divine plan meant to bring out the best in us if we work to overcome it, as you say. References:

(951.3) 86:2.1 Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind. When men and women fall victims to excessive anxiety, they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; and when anxiety becomes actually painful, it inhibits activity and unfailingly institutes evolutionary changes and biologic adaptations. Pain and suffering are essential to progressive evolution.

(258.11) 23:2.12 The Creators are possessed of full power to make Urantia a veritable paradise, but such an Eden would not contribute to the development of those strong, noble, and experienced characters which the Gods are so surely forging out on your world between the anvils of necessity and the hammers of anguish. Your anxieties and sorrows, your trials and disappointments, are just as much a part of the divine plan on your sphere as are the exquisite perfection and infinite adaptation of all things to their supreme purpose on the worlds of the central and perfect universe.


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The UB does not teach or say (anywhere at all, including and especially in the quotes posted) that anxiety is a good thing or something to embrace, promote, perpetuate, encourage, or even tolerate. It is presented as something to outgrow and overcome by faith, experience, and maturity.

Is anxiety a normal part of our unspiritzed, animal mind? I don't think so. I think it peculiarly human. Animals do have fear but I think only people worry. Worry is a primitive, even a savage state of mind leading to superstition and ghost fear. It is positive and good like slavery and greed are...it leads to something less bad or better.

Ask your physician if anxiety is "healthy".

To claim anxiety is healthy is to declare a principal mind (and body) poison to be good for people...and anxiety is NOT good for people, at least according to the wisdom of the UB (and modern medicine - both). It is to be abandoned because it is pure poison which is debilitating and crippling in its effects to the individual sufferers. It often prevents good choices, clear thinking, and is oppositional to faith. Prayer and faith and hope and confidence in God's friendly universe are its antidote and cure.

So kat, you agree with Stephen- feeling assurance of one's safety in a friendly universe (as taught by Jesus) is irrational while being worried, anxious, and fearful about our material lives and destiny is "healthy"??!! Well, you and Stephen share some very peculiar beliefs you both promote here which defy the UB.

The text you posted kat says anxiety leads to pain and suffering and not to health. It leads to change which causes less anxiety which does not mean or claim it is a good thing or healthy thing. Do the enlightened, spiritualized, progressive, and faithful souls have anxiety?

Sigh...careful what you are so eager to agree with...and to disagree with.

8)


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But isn't there a major difference between animal anxiety and the internal recognition and fairly balanced response of a person to "gentle pressure from above"?

The challenges we face due to that pressure surely cause commotion to our systems, hopefully temporarily. If that commotion is the necessary means to our adaptation and growth then it must not only be a good thing but a very, very good thing.


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“they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; ”

Anxieties of today reflected in the music of today like beating on a hollow log with a bone.


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Riktare wrote:
But isn't there a major difference between animal anxiety and the internal recognition and fairly balanced response of a person to "gentle pressure from above"?

The challenges we face due to that pressure surely cause commotion to our systems, hopefully temporarily. If that commotion is the necessary means to our adaptation and growth then it must not only be a good thing but a very, very good thing.


How is worry "pressure from above"? Do you suggest that anxieties are sourced by or originate with the Spirits? I am quite certain that the Spirits deliver assurance and affirmations and confirmation and confidence and faith and truth....not anxiety. Any quotes that suggest anxiety is a very good thing for the mind, soul, progress, or faith of a believer? Or only that it leads savages to store food for the winter to avoid starvation? Please describe all the benefits listed in the UB for this "healthy" emotion...so claimed now by 3 different students. A puzzler to me. Did you all read the quotes listed in the link I provided? It seems very clear...at least to me.


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fanofVan wrote:
Is anxiety a normal part of our unspiritzed, animal mind? I don't think so.


What do you think our "unspiritized animal mind" is if not human? A spiritized mind is superadjutant, an unspiritized mind is adjutant. Anxiety is a natural state of the adjutant mind.

(951.3) 86:2.1 Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind.

fanofVan wrote:
To claim anxiety is healthy is to declare a principal mind (and body) poison to be good for people...and anxiety is NOT good for people, at least according to the wisdom of the UB.


Firstly, Stephen said this, which you took out of context. The word "if" must be included in your critique of his writing.:

SEla_Kelly wrote:
But the Urantia Book condones anxiety as healthy if man is transcendant of his own dilemma.


Additionally, it is written in the Urantia Book quite clearly that human anxiety is part of the divine plan. Do you think our Creator Son would plan something for us that is not beneficial in the grand scheme?

(258.11) 23:2.12 Your anxieties and sorrows, your trials and disappointments, are just as much a part of the divine plan on your sphere as are the exquisite perfection and infinite adaptation of all things to their supreme purpose on the worlds of the central and perfect universe.

fanofVan wrote:
The text you posted kat says anxiety leads to pain and suffering and not to health.


Again, if you read Stephen's post the healthy part is overcoming the pain and suffering. He used the word "transcendant [sic]", rather than "overcome", but the meaning is the same. So yes, pain and suffering does lead to better things. Suffering is essential to evolutionary progress, both physical, mental and spiritual.

(51:13) 3:5.14 9. Is pleasure--the satisfaction of happiness--desirable? Then must man live in a world where the alternative of pain and the likelihood of suffering are ever-present experiential possibilities.

fanofVan wrote:
So kat, you agree with Stephen- feeling assurance of one's safety in a friendly universe (as taught by Jesus) is irrational while being worried, anxious, and fearful about our material lives and destiny is "healthy"??!! Well, you and Stephen share some very peculiar beliefs you both promote here which defy the UB.


But that's not what Stephen said, is it? If you could constrain your hypercritical attitude toward everything he writes, perhaps you could find a grain of truth in it. Where is the untruth in this:

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Therefore I rule in my heart that anxiety and uncertainty, the things you describe which go against assurance, are quite healthy "if a man is capable of wresting disappointment from the jaws of defeat", and that the assurance you have found is something that is not completely rational. Therefore I am really not concerned if your faith is true, but rather how to transform fear and anxiety into work of a personal kind, teach patience to children in the midst of their uncertainties.


Again, you ignored the word IF which is troubling. A man who can overcome disappointment and defeat while transforming fear and anxiety is a healthy man. Personally I find your persistent and totally unnecessary ridicule more poisonous than anxiety could ever be.

fanofVan wrote:
Do the enlightened, spiritualized, progressive, and faithful souls have anxiety?


Yes they do, as long as they have an adjutant mind. Anxiety is a natural emotion. It's how an enlightened person handles anxiety that makes a difference. I don't care how enlightened you are, if you're trapped or attacked, you will have anxiety as a natural physical stress reaction. Worry, which is a form of anxiety, is also a normal human emotional reaction. Who doesn't worry when a loved one falls ill, or when a child leaves on his first solo driving experience in the family car? Worry and anxiety are part of life. It's how you react to those emotions, what you do when they pop into consciousness, that can be labeled healthy or unhealthy. Personally, I don't think it is even possible to shut off all anxiety and worry as long as we are living an earth-bound life. But as Stephen says, we can transcend it, or rise above it, gain control of it and not let it win; we can wrest it "from the jaws of defeat" and make it work for personal gain, meanwhile being an example to our children. If only you had really read what he said, if only. Here's what the Urantia Book suggests we do with worry:

(1223.4) 111:7.2 May I admonish you to heed the distant echo of the Adjuster’s faithful call to your soul? The indwelling Adjuster cannot stop or even materially alter your career struggle of time; the Adjuster cannot lessen the hardships of life as you journey on through this world of toil. The divine indweller can only patiently forbear while you fight the battle of life as it is lived on your planet; but you could, if you only would — as you work and worry, as you fight and toil — permit the valiant Adjuster to fight with you and for you. You could be so comforted and inspired, so enthralled and intrigued, if you would only allow the Adjuster constantly to bring forth the pictures of the real motive, the final aim, and the eternal purpose of all this difficult, uphill struggle with the commonplace problems of your present material world.

fanofVan wrote:
Sigh...careful what you are so eager to agree with...and to disagree with.


Said Jesus:
(1571.4) 140:3.17 “You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother’s eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye."


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Did Jesus preach against anxiety?....or not?

Is assurance irrational?...or "not completely rational"?

100:2.7 (1096.4) Jesus portrayed the profound surety of the God-knowing mortal when he said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?” Temporal securities are vulnerable, but spiritual sureties are impregnable. When the flood tides of human adversity, selfishness, cruelty, hate, malice, and jealousy beat about the mortal soul, you may rest in the assurance that there is one inner bastion, the citadel of the spirit, which is absolutely unassailable; at least this is true of every human being who has dedicated the keeping of his soul to the indwelling spirit of the eternal God.

100:2.8 (1096.5) After such spiritual attainment, whether secured by gradual growth or specific crisis, there occurs a new orientation of personality as well as the development of a new standard of values. Such spirit-born individuals are so remotivated in life that they can calmly stand by while their fondest ambitions perish and their keenest hopes crash; they positively know that such catastrophes are but the redirecting cataclysms which wreck one’s temporal creations preliminary to the rearing of the more noble and enduring realities of a new and more sublime level of universe attainment.

176:3.2 (1916.2) “And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.


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fanofVan wrote:
Did Jesus preach against anxiety?....or not?


Did Jesus himself experience anxiety both before and after his baptism? Or didn't he?

(1401.7) 127:4.7 James was growing up to be a well-balanced and even-tempered youth, but he was not so spiritually inclined as Jesus. He was a much better student than Joseph, who, while a faithful worker, was even less spiritually minded. Joseph was a plodder and not up to the intellectual level of the other children. Simon was a well-meaning boy but too much of a dreamer. He was slow in getting settled down in life and was the cause of considerable anxiety to Jesus and Mary. But he was always a good and well-intentioned lad. Jude was a firebrand. He had the highest of ideals, but he was unstable in temperament. He had all and more of his mother’s determination and aggressiveness, but he lacked much of her sense of proportion and discretion.

(1938.2) 179:2.3 The Master had but one anxiety, and that was for the safety and salvation of his chosen followers. And so, with the full knowledge that the Father had put all things under his authority, the Master now prepared to enact the parable of brotherly love.


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Are anger, hate, greed, lust, envy, and racism all "a natural emotion"?

Do you also recommend those as "healthy"? Or something else to outgrow and overcome and transcend?

Stephen's "grain" of truth is buried in a falsehood and incorrectly equates anxiety and fear with uncertainty and personal assurance as less than rational.

He appears to promote anxiety as healthy and assurance as irrational. You appear to agree.

These beliefs promoted here seem to me to be the antithesis of the very positive message of the Papers, which Stephen has stated clearly and redundantly he does not believe and has disagreed with and contradicted too many times to count. You keep encouraging and spinning his falsehoods and contradictions by finding kernals of truth in the bushels of misstatements contradicted by the teachings.

But so long as the teachings remain front and center here, that's all good.


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fanofVan wrote:
Are anger, hate, greed, lust, envy, and racism all "a natural emotion"?

Do you also recommend those as "healthy"? Or something else to outgrow and overcome and transcend?


Perhaps you didn't read my previous post? The baser human emotions are meant to be mastered. Self-mastery is the goal, which I have already explained. If you could back away from your condescension for a moment, we might be able to have a more in-depth discussion of that very thing, for I think all of those emotions you mentioned are indications of immaturity, as are anger, impatience, hostility, aggression, disparagement, mockery, ridicule, disrespect and contempt of others.

fanofVan wrote:
Stephen's "grain" of truth is buried in a falsehood and incorrectly equates anxiety and fear with uncertainty.


And you're saying they are not related at all? Of course they are. They all arise from the moral confusion caused by man's dual nature as explained in this reference:

(1221.8 ) 111:6.1 Many of the temporal troubles of mortal man grow out of his twofold relation to the cosmos. Man is a part of nature — he exists in nature — and yet he is able to transcend nature. Man is finite, but he is indwelt by a spark of infinity. Such a dual situation not only provides the potential for evil but also engenders many social and moral situations fraught with much uncertainty and not a little anxiety.

What reaction do you have to uncertainty, Bradley? Have you already learned to feast upon uncertainty like those who arrive on the shores of Havona? Have you already completely transcended your human body and mind to a point of complete mastery? I'm sorry to tell you that a tadpole will naturally feel the emotions of fear and anxiety when faced with baffling uncertainties, and that is part of the divine plan which ever urges the tadpole mind to search for higher levels of thinking and living.

(1778.3) 160.3.5  This new gospel of the kingdom renders a great service to the art of living in that it supplies a new and richer incentive for higher living. It presents a new and exalted goal of destiny, a supreme life purpose. And these new concepts of the eternal and divine goal of existence are in themselves transcendent stimuli, calling forth the reaction of the very best that is resident in man’s higher nature. On every mountaintop of intellectual thought are to be found relaxation for the mind, strength for the soul, and communion for the spirit. From such vantage points of high living, man is able to transcend the material irritations of the lower levels of thinking — worry, jealousy, envy, revenge, and the pride of immature personality. These high-climbing souls deliver themselves from a multitude of the crosscurrent conflicts of the trifles of living, thus becoming free to attain consciousness of the higher currents of spirit concept and celestial communication. But the life purpose must be jealously guarded from the temptation to seek for easy and transient attainment; likewise must it be so fostered as to become immune to the disastrous threats of fanaticism.


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fanofVan wrote:
You keep encouraging and spinning his falsehoods and contradictions by finding kernals of truth in the bushels of misstatements contradicted by the teachings.


Isn't that what Jesus did? Am I wrong in attempting to do the same? Isn't it more important for us to learn from what Jesus did rather than what he taught?

(1455.4) 132:0.4 And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error.

(2088:5) 196:0.10 When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of the religious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did.


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Well....what a lively and most interesting discussion!! Several very important issues at play! Indeed, the very crux and purpose of the Revelation to me is to reduce confusions while delivering assurance to help us transcend all anxiety and embrace all uncertainty!!!!

Kat claims above that uncertainty is "related" to anxiety and fear because "they all arise from moral confusion caused by man's dual nature...".

I don't think so, no. Uncertainty does not arise from moral confusion...or certainly not only from that cause. Uncertainty is inherent to all free will creatures in time regardless of their moral certainties and sublime confidences and absolute faith in a friendly universe and no matter their experiential wisdom. Indeed, only the Trinity themselves and those created in eternal perfection and completion do not experience uncertainty. Uncertainty may be the source of confusion or anxiety but it is not either of those. We are not taught to embrace and feast upon "moral confusion" but we are taught to discern and understand precisely what uncertainty is and how important it is and how wonderful it is!

No mind can learn anything without it! Everything must not only be known but all outcomes must be pre-known to eliminate uncertainty. The only certainty in life is uncertainty and the only changeless thing is change itself (not true but nice Zen koans/paradoxes to contemplate). This is the lesson of uncertainty that must be learned. There is only one cure for any and all anxiety related to change and uncertain futures and unknown solutions to problems and unpredictable outcomes and the unexpected results inherent in free will choices in time and space!

That cure is faith in God and the absolute dependence upon God and God's love and power and plan - that no matter what is chosen by ourselves or by others and no matter what repercussions may befall us or others, including all others, and including material and personal catastrophe and calamity - and only THAT cure and practice will deliver that sublime peace and absolute confidence to mind regarding all uncertainties and only THAT will allow us to feast and fatten on uncertainty and disappointment.

Indeed, what is disappointment or what is its cause? It is an expectation of outcome which does not occur or does not happen within the expected time frame. Disappointment is a function of personal expectations! But personal attachments to personal expectations demonstrates an ego/self driven outcome rather than us letting go of expectations and allow God the consequences or out-workings of our self forgetting actions and choices in time. Disappointment means we are still not trusting God with the outcomes of our choices. Anxiety means the same thing. Both are primary indicators of our lack of faith in God and our lack of trust in God's out-working and timing of the realization and actualization of all choices and all consequences of all choices and all eventuations and all realizations of potential.

Uncertainty is not about or related to "moral confusion". Uncertainty is wonderful. It is a Divine Gift to the creatures of time. Surprise and adventure are also effects or results of uncertainty! Uncertainty is a gift to the pilgrim's of time to deliver anticipation and excitement when considering potential and future destinies and opportunities and adventures still to come!

26:5.3 (291.3) That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: “In liaison with God, nothing—absolutely nothing—is impossible.”

111:7.1 (1223.3) Uncertainty with security is the essence of the Paradise adventureuncertainty in time and in mind, uncertainty as to the events of the unfolding Paradise ascent; security in spirit and in eternity, security in the unqualified trust of the creature son in the divine compassion and infinite love of the Universal Father; uncertainty as an inexperienced citizen of the universe; security as an ascending son in the universe mansions of an all-powerful, all-wise, and all-loving Father.

It appears kat and Stephen would have us believe we are equate uncertainty with anxiety and consider them equally of value and benefit. Stephen is dubious about the function, reality, and desirability of assurance, and whether it is even rational. I am certain the UB teaches something else completely different. Assurance is the very ministry of Deity in mortal/celestial mind, including mortal children and primitives! Uncertainty teaches us to trust in the source of that assurance!! And anxiety is something to be abandoned and offers no succor or hope or trust or faith.

As to "condescension" kat...I'll let others here determine whose nose is being looked down upon others here but the one who accuses another of such an offence is certainly not innocent of such accusations. Just sayin'...…

As usual, Stephen has grossly misrepresented the teachings and contents of the UB. Defend him and his misrepresentations as you may. But letting the text speak for itself is of inherent and inevitable benefit to us all. Assurance is quite rational and dependable. Uncertainty is not the same as anxiety...one is quite functional and desirable and inherent while the other is immature and certainly not "healthy" - its abandonment is healthy but not its embrace!

Isn't assurance the opposite of anxiety? Which is desirable? Which is undesirable? Which is rational? Which is irrational for a faith child who trusts the Lord? Uncertainty with absolute security!!

See....that's not so difficult is it??????

Or so I understand..... :wink: :biggrin: 8) :idea: :!:


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed May 15, 2019 3:16 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
You keep encouraging and spinning his falsehoods and contradictions by finding kernals of truth in the bushels of misstatements contradicted by the teachings.


Isn't that what Jesus did? Am I wrong in attempting to do the same? Isn't it more important for us to learn from what Jesus did rather than what he taught?

(1455.4) 132:0.4 And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error.

(2088:5) 196:0.10 When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of the religious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did.


What an odd set of questions.... Cannot we do both? So his teachings contradict his actions? Are his teachings NOT to be followed then? Really????!!!! Did he preach against anxiety and worry? Why yes he did! Frequently and eloquently. Did he suffer anxiety? Not so much, no...…….

You found two quotes which illustrate Jesus having anxiety...one as a teenager left with the responsibility of his entire family's welfare but still in his youth and immaturity. Especially confusing to him as he thought he had his expectations set for something else completely. A large dose of disappointment as well as uncertainty and anxiety for his mastery of self and the embrace of letting go of material expectations of outcome and all related fears...to allow God all consequences to all choices and all circumstances.

And then he had anxiety ("but one anxiety") for the material fates (not the souls) of those he personally placed in harm's way with some certainty of the dangers and suffering consequences this would bring to them....a caring love and affection, but not a doubting or fearful worry as to their real welfare and outcomes. The worry for others is certainly a higher standard than fear for oneself and one's own welfare and outcomes. How very human...and noble.

kat...you keep comparing yourself to Jesus and contrasting me to Jesus....I would caution you about such a practice as it smacks of spiritual pride....and condescension.

Regarding the manner in which Jesus shared truth with strangers....let us consider how he taught the Apostles in contrast. We are gathered here as students to learns a specific set of teachings we share in common. Much like the gospel was learned by the Apostles and the disciples. They were taught to be teachers themselves. We are admonished by the authors of the UB to always and forever consider both audience and context when studying the words, teachings, and actions of Jesus!! kat posts random text without such consideration to prove beliefs to the rest of us. There are so many examples where Jesus was very detailed and specific in the intricacies of the parables and the lessons of the gospel and 4th epochal revelation. He was demanding and sometimes impatient and a little indignant too.

Jesus was a teacher. The Apostles were students. Accuracy of lessons and facts and understanding were required of the students by the teacher. Who has read Part IV and does not know this? We are students. The authors of the Papers delivered its thousands of facts and details about universe reality to us as students to learn those thousands of facts and gain knowledge of reality to reduce confusion and eliminate error. This does NOT mean we are to pass on the beliefs, claims, proclamation, and declarations of some readers here which CONTRADICT those teachings...to be polite. This is a classroom, not a tea party for Pete's sake. It is not okay to silently and blindly allow Stephen or anyone else to defy and directly contradict the teachings here kat….or anyone else who would rather be polite and misled than to object and correct falsehoods posted here. What was the reaction and attitude of Jesus regarding the washing of the feet and the seating arrangements at the Last Supper? Was he meek and accepting of such evil and falsehood? Hell No!

Assurance is desirable and rational. Anxiety is not. No matter who claims otherwise.


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