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fanofVan wrote:
Whatever self-revelation may be, it is not adjutant ministry or personal/auto revelation or self consciousness.


Yes, I agree.

fanofVan wrote:
I have some confusions and doubts regarding whether mortals or celestials experience self-revelation, however it does make sense that some of reality is self revealing or that self does not require any other agent, other than self, to discover some realities - they are self-evident or self learned or able to be known by observation and perception and reason and speculation; or personal/self experience that does not require personal revelation or epochal revelation. Perhaps this is not self-revelation and is simply the normal functions of mind, including adjutant mind. But there is this to consider:

(31.6) 1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God’s bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father’s personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.


It is written in the reference the "possibility for self-revelation". That means there is potential for the selfhood of the personality to experience revelation. The emphasis should be on the word "revelation" rather than the word "self". Neither the self nor the personality do the revealing. Revelation is experienced as a personal religious experience. The self is not the source of revelation or religious experience, it is a participant, the entity undergoing the experience of revelation as a personal religious experience. It is a partnership and the other partner beside the self is a member of Deity, the enlightener.

fanofVan wrote:
Me here: Notice that self consciousness is distinct and different from self-revelation, as is identity. Perhaps the cosmic mind and the reality response is the source of self-revelation as normal mindedness is able to discern much without TA revelations (personal) or epochal forms? Perhaps self-revelation is "reality sensitivity"? Please note 16:6.7 below: knowing right from wrong - prior to the personal revelation potential by the TA and before soul is born is the ability for right and wrong to be "self" revealed.


Yes self-consciousness and self-revelation are two different things as I pointed out before. The ability to recognize right from wrong is an adjutant function on the superanimal or human level. Revelation is a superhuman phenomenon, a means to bridge the gap unbridgeable by the material mind. Revelation is an experience in the soul.

fanofVan wrote:
So whatever it might be, and whether mortals participate, it is certain that self-revelation is not self consciousness or personal revelation. Try again?


Sorry? I'm the one who told you that you (not me) was confusing self-revelation with self-consciousness and then attempted to highlight the difference. The fact that I pointed that out to you is proof that I'm well aware there is a difference. Try again?

Here's what I wrote:

katroofjebus wrote:
There are only two types of revelation, personal and epochal. Self-revelation and personal revelation are equivalent forms, as is autorevelation. I think you may have confused the term "self-revelation" with the term "self-consciousness". Revelation is always spiritual, therefore personal revelation, self-revelation and autorevelation are also spiritual. Self-consciousness, on the other hand, is not always spiritual. Self-consciousness covers the entire gamut of selfhood, including matter, mind and soul in addition to spirit because it is a feature of personality, the unifier of all those things.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I do not regard the Thought Adjuster, as an individual fragment of God the Father within every human individual, as an experiencial actuality (and I accept that the ways of the Thought Adjuster may be unsearchable as is the Universal Father): I regard the Thought Adjuster as a theoretical possibility, but maybe people in Society who actually do have a connection with their Thought Adjusters "Thought Controllers", have acted in a fatherly way to help me find work and advice me as to reality approach.


I believe those people who are fortunate to have arrived at the third cosmic circle are beginning to be able to experience the Thought Adjuster as a reality rather than a theoretical possibility. People who arrive at the first cosmic circle are able to be in contact with their Thought Adjusters. It is written that there are many people like that on the planet, at least at the time of the writing of the Urantia Book. And yes, those first circlers would undoubtedly be able to regard you with a fatherly love. Reference:

(1212:2)  110:7.1  The achievement of the seven cosmic circles does not equal Adjuster fusion. There are many mortals living on Urantia who have attained their circles; but fusion depends on yet other greater and more sublime spiritual achievements, upon the attainment of a final and complete attunement of the mortal will with the will of God as it is resident in the Thought Adjuster.


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.

Jean Royer pulled together a fascinating essay on personality in the UB, and drew certain conclusions. It wouldn't post here for some reason, but it would here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5595&p=73959#p73959

.


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rick warren wrote:
.

Jean Royer pulled together a fascinating essay on personality in the UB, and drew certain conclusions. It wouldn't post here for some reason, but it would here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5595&p=73959#p73959

.


Thank you.
Makes me wonder why personality is so mysterious, surely a merciful God would give us some answers when he knows how hard we are trying to figure this out.. : )
Or maybe he has already??


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Thanks katroofjebus for catching my fumble with the number of occurrences of "self-revelation"!

And especially for pointing to this one:
UB 1:7.6 wrote:
"The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. [. . .]" (31.6, 1:7.6])

Like the other 7 non-Nalda occurrences, I'm seeing this as another occurrence of personality revealing aspects of itself (i.e. "self-revelation"). Notice that this is quite different to the sort of personal or epochal revelation offered to ascenders.

Likewise here:
UB 16:6.10 wrote:
"[. . .]. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. [. . .]" (192.6, 16:6.10])

Like Makalu, I first glimpsed this as intuitive, self-revelatory recognition of validity. But then, given the flavor of all the other (non-Nalda) occurrences, I'm now seeing the infinite mind, self-revealing.

Also, regarding my question about [Truth as a "former technique of personality assurance"?], the thing which caught my attention was not the fact of superimposition and overlapping ministries, but that truth is seen as a technique of "assuring" the personality of ascenders.

Great discussion!
Nigel


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nnunn wrote:

Likewise here:
UB 16:6.10 wrote:
"[. . .]. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. [. . .]" (192.6, 16:6.10])

Like Makalu, I first glimpsed this as intuitive, self-revelatory recognition of validity. But then, given the flavor of all the other (non-Nalda) occurrences, I'm now seeing the infinite mind, self-revealing.



well the reason i said "that's part of it" is because i see this particular example as both an indirect self-revelation of the absolute Third Source and Center thru the manifested cosmic mind but also includes our own recognition of reality. the next sentence after the one you posted above elaborates:

Quote:
Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience.


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nnunn wrote:
Thanks katroofjebus for catching my fumble with the number of occurrences of "self-revelation"!

And especially for pointing to this one:
UB 1:7.6 wrote:
"The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. [. . .]" (31.6, 1:7.6])

Like the other 7 non-Nalda occurrences, I'm seeing this as another occurrence of personality revealing aspects of itself (i.e. "self-revelation"). Notice that this is quite different to the sort of personal or epochal revelation offered to ascenders.

Likewise here:
UB 16:6.10 wrote:
"[. . .]. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. [. . .]" (192.6, 16:6.10])

Like Makalu, I first glimpsed this as intuitive, self-revelatory recognition of validity. But then, given the flavor of all the other (non-Nalda) occurrences, I'm now seeing the infinite mind, self-revealing.

Also, regarding my question about [Truth as a "former technique of personality assurance"?], the thing which caught my attention was not the fact of superimposition and overlapping ministries, but that truth is seen as a technique of "assuring" the personality of ascenders.

Great discussion!
Nigel


Yes...in my own uncertainty of the definition of self-revelation, I also wondered if the term meant the revelation OF self TO others rather than the revelation BY self TO self. Does personality have an inherent ability to reveal itself to other personalities? If we study the context of the Papers and sections which include the few quotes about self-revelation, it often discusses the functionality of personality disbursement from the original and source personality outward to all other beings whom are given personality.

Paper 105 seems especially relevant to this idea of dispersion from the one to the all which remains part of the one after all...which lends itself well to Nigel's point about assurance. The I AM concept is the source, I think, of self-revelation as God reveals himself by Trinity and the Sevenfold reflections of Trinity and from there ever outward and downward through all of creation that is "personal" and has "self".

There is an aspect of assurance in the mortal mind, even in the minds of children and primitives, of the "other" and a comfort in the source of urge and nourishment attachment to the Mother Spirit that is primal and foundational to the faith response which eventually gives birth to soul and the truth assurance ministry of the Father Fragment....are then both of this Spirits "self revealing" through the personality circuit? We are told that when we recognize/connect to the actual personality in others, we should recognize and be attracted to the source and destiny of all personality too.

I agree....great discussion! I readily confess I am in way over my head here...and appreciate the thoughtful posts and reflections of others here!

0:2.18 (4.12) 7. God the Absolute—the experientializing God of transcended superpersonal values and divinity meanings, now existential as the Deity Absolute. This is the third level of unifying Deity expression and expansion. On this supercreative level, Deity experiences exhaustion of personalizable potential, encounters completion of divinity, and undergoes depletion of capacity for self-revelation to successive and progressive levels of other-personalization. Deity now encounters, impinges upon, and experiences identity with, the Unqualified Absolute.

23:1.1 (256.3) Immediately following the creation of the Seven Spirits of the Havona Circuits the Infinite Spirit brought into being the vast corps of Solitary Messengers. There is no part of the universal creation which is pre-existent to the Solitary Messengers except Paradise and the Havona circuits; they have functioned throughout the grand universe from near eternity. They are fundamental to the divine technique of the Infinite Spirit for self-revelation to, and personal contact with, the far-flung creations of time and space.

105:7.18 (1160.16) In the eternity of the past the forces of the Absolutes, the spirits of the Deities, and the personalities of the Gods stirred in response to the primordial self-will of self-existent self-will. In this universe age we are all witnessing the stupendous repercussions of the far-flung cosmic panorama of the subabsolute manifestations of the limitless potentials of all these realities. And it is altogether possible that the continued diversification of the original reality of the First Source and Center may proceed onward and outward throughout age upon age, on and on, into the faraway and inconceivable stretches of absolute infinity.


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fanofVan wrote:
"[...]. The I AM concept is the source, I think, of self-revelation as God reveals himself by Trinity and the Sevenfold reflections of Trinity and from there ever outward and downward through all of creation that is "personal" and has "self". [...]

When I first bumped into the Urantia Book's novel re-definition of "personality", I was struck by an unexpected notion; that the most personal actuality the Urantia Book reveals must be the I AM.

I mean, can it get any more personal than "I am" :D

Would this explain why the Father was not able to delegate responsibility for the personality circuit? It's simply too fundamental ?

Nigel


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katroofjebus wrote:
But the apostle John's Thought Adjuster did share some of those facts with him. Who in the first century would have known about the seven adjutants, or the four control creatures of Salvington?

That is bullshit. Thought Adjusters are not the only means by which new ideas or idea heretofore had not been presented, may dawn in the human perception. The revelation is an activity of the third source and center, through people who are amenable to such conduct. If a person is "receptive" or simply amenable to truth, then there would probably be some coordinated activities of the Thought Adjuster, but this is impossible to judge. If a person can perceptually be adjusted to perceive the reality of the morontial spheres, its societies, or perceptually as ascenders, then it would be recognised as another entity, a seraphim or archangel or even a Melchizedek or Lanonandek, say, bestowing the common knowledge of order in the universe. It happen more than you think and King Enma of Japon long ago had foreseen the 8 ascender spheres (7 ascender-morontia spheres +1 Adamic homeworld) of Jerusem to citizens of his island. Truth is not bound to one tradition or culture, be careful when society creates its own "underworld" (Raku, Roku), because what was once pure in the conceptual theology of the Japonese, is now a social construct, an underworld false personality, complete with the summation of attributation within the recepts of human actions, through observable actions and digital expenditure, and also the electricity you consume or waste.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
That is bullshit. Thought Adjusters are not the only means by which new ideas or idea heretofore had not been presented, may dawn in the human perception. [...]


haha, right on!!

And don't let anyone groundlessly bully you!!

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
But the apostle John's Thought Adjuster did share some of those facts with him. Who in the first century would have known about the seven adjutants, or the four control creatures of Salvington?

That is bullshit. Thought Adjusters are not the only means by which new ideas or idea heretofore had not been presented, may dawn in the human perception. The revelation is an activity of the third source and center, through people who are amenable to such conduct. If a person is "receptive" or simply amenable to truth, then there would probably be some coordinated activities of the Thought Adjuster, but this is impossible to judge. If a person can perceptually be adjusted to perceive the reality of the morontial spheres, its societies, or perceptually as ascenders, then it would be recognised as another entity, a seraphim or archangel or even a Melchizedek or Lanonandek, say, bestowing the common knowledge of order in the universe. It happen more than you think and King Enma of Japon long ago had foreseen the 8 ascender spheres (7 ascender-morontia spheres +1 Adamic homeworld) of Jerusem to citizens of his island. Truth is not bound to one tradition or culture, be careful when society creates its own "underworld" (Raku, Roku), because what was once pure in the conceptual theology of the Japonese, is now a social construct, an underworld false personality, complete with the summation of attributation within the recepts of human actions, through observable actions and digital expenditure, and also the electricity you consume or waste.


We must be careful here in assigning insights, imagination, visions, facts, and truth in the minds of mortals to other agents and personalities. The Papers repeatedly warn us of the inherent capability of the mind which can be transformed and transcend its material limits to invent voices and visions and insert meanings into complete inventions of the mind. Such potential can lead the mind astray into both confusions and certainties which contain neither fact nor truth but merely reflect unreality and human folly. Such experiences can be dismissed by the mind of their invention or taken seriously or even cause psychosis and mental disruptions which become disabling and regressive in those who embrace such experiences too seriously and insert too much meaning and importance. We are taught by the UB of the very real dangers and risks involved.

We must also be cautious about assigning credit for such "experiences" to particular sources such as angels or other celestials. The UB seems to be clear and specific that no other mind in creation has access to or the power to invade the minds of any other, including and especially the mortal mind, and most especially when the Thought Adjuster/God Fragment resides within. We are taught that only the 3 Spirits of the Father, Mother, and Son may communicate and that we cannot tell one of those from the other whenever any of them communicate to mind...the Adjuster is the voice and whisper and pilot. So accordingly, no celestials deliver any voices, visions, or information to mortal mind as I understand the Papers to teach.

So, now.... while the UB says to be very cautious of such events and to have no confidence in the voracity or our understanding of such phenomena and also limits the source of such when real and actual, the Papers certainly do give examples of personal revelations that include visions and voices of places and events of a morontial and celestial nature in real time. What then is the purpose of such wondrous experiences and to whom are such granted? The examples given in the UB appear to be experienced by those of significant Circle Progress attainment and spiritization of mind. It is my opinion such experiences are given to impress the mind of the reality of spirit connection as an affirmation and assurance of progress in the Spirit.

I do not believe this personal revelation is any reliable form of practical education regarding material reality, cosmology, source and destiny, personality relationship, or those matters which come to humanity by epochal revelation and normal educational formats including anything we might consider the scientific pursuits of understanding the physics and metaphysical and historical explanations for reality. In other words, it is my understanding that there are significant distinctions between personal revelation which are received and applied in very personal and subjective ways and educational disbursements of knowledge.

Consider that a primary purpose of Dalamatia and the Garden are permanent educational centers for every mortal world. The facts of cosmology, origin, destiny, relationships, physics, causes, and effects are a normal educational process on evolutionary worlds and every world mortals visit throughout all time and space. Education is progressive...just as progressive as spiritualization. Indeed, there are limits to spiritualization potential whose potential can only be realized by a knowledgeable, factual, and increasingly objective perspective of universe reality. To dismiss the meaning and value of knowledge or underestimate the importance of understanding and reality perspective to our universe adventure and progress is to ignore how much attention is given in the Papers on this very subject.

Now that Dalamatia and the Garden have been lost as centers of education and learning, evidently other epochal revelation forms are being utilized to reduce confusions and eliminate errors of belief and perspective to assist the mortals of our world to progress in a more balanced way with the desired perspective which includes more details and more context and greater angles and depth of view and appreciation for universe reality. Primitive superstitions and ignorance must be overcome. Personal revelation is not sufficient - on any world. I think because its primary purpose and value is focused on personal religious experience and progress and the growth of soul...the Holy Spirit and Adjutants are focused on the priority of evolutionary religious experience based on faith and faith assurance and the birth of soul and the Adjuster is focused on the priority of spiritization and progress through the 7 Psychic Circles and growth of soul....the journey to fusion.

But, we are told, the gaining of knowledge and growth of perspective and the expanding objectivity of reality knowledge and understanding are also critical to our perfecting and becoming and spiritization adventure and education. Thusly, schools and learning centers are inherent to our experience. The facts in the UB are thoughtfully gathered, organized, and presented to provide individual students and, eventually, our entire world with a profound paradigm shift in perspective. They add factual scale and detail and relationship and conceptual validation to expand our ability to realize and actualize truth given to each of us by personal revelation...the truth and truth assurance ministry of the Thought Adjuster.

Stephen - it is unfortunate that you come here to present the ancient and primitive superstitions of hell and the gods of hell which could not be more irrelevant to the topic or to a UB study group. Enma actually originated in India long before its arrival in China and then Japan and is pure mythology. Hell is also purely fictional. You present both concepts here as if somehow valid or relevant. Unfortunate. Raku and Roku do not have the meanings you proscribe to them I do not think...but also irrelevant no matter your intended meaning. Still making up definitions and words to suit your own beliefs rather than focus on the UB.

The UB does also teach that truth can be found most everywhere by those minds who seek it out or have the discernment to recognize it in its many forms and presentations. But truth is not truth simply because someone believes it to be so as much that is believed is fiction, superstition, fantasy, delusion, illusion, and other forms of falsehood. The mind is not so hard to deceive or confuse...obviously.

I agree with you that mind, even mortal mind, is created and given so that knowledge and understanding and truth may all be discovered, discerned, applied, and made real (realized and actualized) in a multitude of ways. The ministry of mind is incredibly complex and capable of transcending the limits of our knowledge and the extent of our ignorance in marvelous ways!! Curiosity, imagination, insight, intuition, perception, discernment, cognition, enlightenment, wisdom....all of these are inherent in the function of mortal and celestial mind without personal revelation I think. Also, the growth of one's soul and cooperation with the Spirit within can be accomplished by the willing mind regardless of false beliefs, primitivisms, and ignorance of material fact and knowledge.

All of which brings me back to thoughts of personality and identity and the truth assurance received by the inner recognition and embrace of the original and source personality of the I AM. Is it this primal "personal" relationship reality that leads to all other truth and growth in the Spirit...by any and all agents and agencies of knowledge and wisdom? I AM of the original I AM as are we all so. The sharing of the same source and the same destiny is a function of relationship that results in the endless and infinite relationship of the each to the all, the all to the each, and the each to one another. Truth is found within such relationship I think.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Thought Adjusters are not the only means by which new ideas or idea heretofore had not been presented, may dawn in the human perception.


That's correct. Any Deity can be the source of revelation and inspiration, but in human experience Deity is always one. Additionally, all such inspiration has its origin in the superconscious.

(380.3) 34:6.2 Although Divinity may be plural in manifestation, in human experience Deity is singular, always one.

The problem is that not all new ideas are revelatory or inspired. Some new ideas rise merely from the utilization of the adjutant of wisdom which coordinates past experiences and present opportunities to solve everyday problems. Ideas which may appear to be new can arise from the subconscious where they have accumulated from past experience. The adjutant of wisdom is able to apply all conscious and subconscious data for idea, or thought assistance. The word "adjutant" means to aid or assist.

(997.3) 91:3.5 Prayer induces the human ego to look both ways for help: for material aid to the subconscious reservoir of mortal experience, for inspiration and guidance to the superconscious borders of the contact of the material with the spiritual, with the Mystery Monitor.

36:5.12 7. The spirit of wisdom - the inherent tendency of all moral creatures towards orderly and progressive evolutionary advancement. This is the highest of the adjutants, the spirit co-ordinator and articulator of the work of all the others. This spirit is the secret of that inborn urge of mind creatures which initiates and maintains the practical and effective program of the ascending scale of existence; that gift of living things which accounts for their inexplicable ability to survive and, in survival, to utilize the co-ordination of all their past experience and present opportunities for the acquisition of all of everything that all of the other six mental ministers can mobilize in the mind of the organism concerned. Wisdom is the acme of intellectual performance. Wisdom is the goal of a purely mental and moral existence.


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Yes, okay indeed Katroof: this is where my major concern is laid. What about the simple functioning of the adjutant mind spirits, and the human choice actions in the universe, and any interference I may have caused in the adjutant mind spirits. Is there any way to know observatively or retrospectively to understand the shape that the universe has taken in lieu of my existences, and whatfor, or whymay has this shape occurred.

When you are looking at human actions consciously affirmative or subconsciously habituated, then in the postmodern sense do you think that all of the cookies and all of the footprints are accumulated as temporary, adjutant, actual assisting, and if so this could be upon a corporate individuality rather than a human individuality. Information, useless and ubiquitous to some, whereas much that I could glean contains the discernible imprint of others' thoughts.

This is expressible form of the artist, although many do not give credit where guidance may follow in this prospect: to identify a person through his signature. But then in a modern world, a signature has been taken into multifarious stages of embossment and reproduction, such that a person is hardly thought of as having a hand in his own signature. Therefore, the question of authorship is whether there is a distinct human personality, and other energy system linked voices who may come out of the Source of Reality, as we draw nearer we would meet Lanonandek Vorondadek and Melchizedek Sons, and I would hope to be able to distinguish the pattern of their work, their inflectivity of tone, and maybe a certain emphasis from which they are drawn to perform by fate or destiny attainment.

It is impossible now in the postmodenrn society, without giving recognition to people like Morehei Ueshibi and the Shaolin School, where samurai who had sought to master the potency of Tai Chi, were given new insight via revelation, as to the moral imperative, to help each living being to master its own lifepattern. Triple and quadruple en tendres are of the common order, as is in figure skating "quadruple axles". We are told to judge on a scale of how many tautologies may fit into a given framework. The old myth of John Henry "to become like a machine in ultimate performance standards" and do it all, impossible and incredulous as it seems. Without recognising the experts within one's field, one is inevitably fed the same story "Lemuria" from 6th, 7th, 8th times double-cited material. This is why I think Authorship of the originating concept is important. Often times, even the name becomes as important as the factual framework of the scientific concept.

It seemed reasonable to trademark something like the Paradise Trinity Symbol, in 1946 when there were so few companies in America, and so many independent housewives, households. But what does a trademark mean, when it is owned through a corporate merger? How does the purchasing of conceptual ideaologies, in the form of slogan or brandmark, within a capitalist environment create in terms of "what one can and cannot say in the public vein". Living in Endicott, I have grown up hearing stories about plumbers who contributed 2-5 patents (average, each!) to national corporations earlier in their careers. These are the people who advice me as to what one can and cannot do, while under contract for a greater community organisation. It is indeed pitiable for people like that to see how after mergers are brought through, much of the patent material is even less admissible in normal conversation, though the invention's application often goes neglected, its function lost to society.

This amounts to a situation where people are systematically deprived of even the common knowledge they should employ within their own climates to gain good use of the land. Jesus did many things that I think upon often, which helps me to resist these kinds of superstitions, which creep up through everyday words and often not given proper consideration by the common people who use the internet. I am talking about suggestions enscribed into the headlines of everyday articles, and nowadays given the "best fit" type actually just a computerized mismash amalgam of what appears to be meaningful concept words of the human mind. Suggestions where they may appear to the ordinary experience whether on a billboard or within a personalised scroll of data which is attributable to the person. Within the pool of information that a person draws from, is suggestions and prayers from others, some of an antagonistic and some of a benevolent kind. And in my opinion, the antagonists seem to have a better claim because what are people doing sending their prayers through a phone or a message it just seems senseless. But then again, I have spent a lot of time on the internet and have read a great many different kinds of expression. I have always been amazed at the expressions of people who begin to apply the precepts of Jungian psychiatry, because it seems so interconnected with the essence of many different cultures.

It will seem like a funny prospect, for the people who spent their time, lent their expertise, to the factual verification of wikipedia. Those fierce defenders, who prevent vandalism or bad journalism from setting into the course of opinionation and verity. What will they think about the stergom adherence of exacting details, when they are reborn inon the morontial spheres? What will they think about a system that allows seraphim to categorize and record the meaningful experiences of the universe?

I would be concerned about those "cookies", and the "footprints" that one leaves behind in this world. Because I would not want to have to take too long washing those clean, observing every action, every adaptation and movement, for every person as a stipulation eretofore they each could leave Urantia off, leave the adjutant mind spirits of mortality away, and be glad to enter into a new life in the resurrection of the morontia spheres. Because you would would want to help the Divine Minister improve His Ministry of adjutant mind function within Urantia, for now and each succeeding generation.

It is one thing to look at the maturation development of the human individual according to the life of Jesus of Nazareth, wherein he may have experienced doubt, wherein he was given to the common pleasures of life. But if you are observing these differentials, through a person's life and seeing where a person could have done better, could have adapted better, could have made more of a difference, you know, you have to say that only a father of such a sympathetic and agreeable disposition would be qualified to actually help you, or perforce help one of your sibling when they encounter a similar set of challenges during the time you were given choices.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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Stephen asks above: "What about the simple functioning of the adjutant mind spirits, and the human choice actions in the universe, and any interference I may have caused in the adjutant mind spirits. Is there any way to know observatively or retrospectively to understand the shape that the universe has taken in lieu of my existences, and whatfor, or whymay has this shape occurred."

Since you are asking about concepts presented in the UB let us consider them in relation to their relevant presentations in the UB. The Revelation teaches that no mortal being can interfere with the adjutants or any other ministry of any celestial or spirit - except as it relates to their own personal experience. We can effect, influence, and impact other persons' experiences, both positively and/or negatively by our own choices. Others may suffer by our hand and/or by our choices and the repercussions of those choices.

However, the universes have a built-in repercussion-limiter which works to protect reality and others from the repercussions of individual choice. The lower the order of being and the further outward in materiality one exists, the more limited is the range of repercussion. The mortal orders certainly cannot disrupt or effect the adjutant circuit or the circuits of physical/material gravity, spirit gravity, mind gravity, personality gravity or any of the ministering Spirits or the TA's (except our own relationship with our personal TA) or planetary. System, or Universe governance or management, etc.

Nor can our personal choices or repercussions prevent any other mortal from their own religious experience, connection to the Spirit, or opportunity for the eternal adventure. Even locally and in our own family, our repercussions are limited. Even a Hitler cannot deprive anyone of their God given potential and opportunity to fulfill that potential. Life and liberty and comfort and sustenance may be deprived by someone's domination and unfair and malicious actions, but still are all beings protected by God's love and affection and mercy and patience to be given adequate time and opportunity to overcome all such sufferings and to find God and his path to Paradise.

Your "in lieu of my existence" question makes no sense....you do exist so there can be no "in place of" or "instead of" your existence and effects of your existence in contributions to the Supreme of actualization of potential resulting in the creation of potential...you exist therefore you cannot not-exist and nothing can now be as-if you don't exist. But to your point, our choices do contribute to the totality of universe experience...or can anyway. Those who do not survive into their eternal potential do also deprive the universe of that personal and specific potential by our own free will choices. Our reality response and realization or actualization of reality potential by our experiences with and expressions of truth, beauty, and goodness do matter and contribute to The Supreme's personal growth and reality realization. We have the power to contribute or deprive the Supreme of that personal experiential expression.

We do not have the power to contribute any error, sin, or other negativity or unreality to the universe or to the potential of the universe future....we may only add our positive contributions. This is like an osmosis filter...only the good stuff gets through the temporal filter to the eternal realities....all the junk and poison and pollutants are filtered out and never affect universe reality OR potential. Evil, sin, and iniquity - no matter who commits those - is always a temporal and local effect, soon to be overcome by the effects and antibodies of love. It's a natural form of isolation and quarantine which effectively prevents the spread of infection beyond certain restricted time and space frames.

Capra's It's A Wonderful Life explores how our being and our not-being might affect outcomes radially and by proximity of effect and offers much to be considered I think. By our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices we are given a powerful opportunity to positively affect an amazing range of outcomes that ripple outward in time and space in ways we can hardly fathom. But the UB clearly teaches that as unlimited are our positive choices in influence and repercussions, the evil/error and sin and iniquity of mortals is very constricted and limited in its potential repercussions and certainly does not interfere with or influence to work of the Spirit or the celestials in their performance or success.

Or so I understand the UB to teach.

And sorry...but I cannot understand a word of anything else you posted above...it's just gibberish to me. But perhaps that's just me?

:wink: 8)

The sins of celestials do have a larger reach of repercussions but even those are limited and the response delivers far more blessings and goodness than all costs and consequences of the repercussions...always this is true! Indeed, the functional reality that good not only overcomes evil but by the overcoming of evil, the auto reaction and reflex of truth and beauty and goodness in response to evil and sin are very active agents that deliver vitality and strength and beneficial gain to the entire organism of creation and results in a growing immunity and ever more effective responsiveness to evil and sin. This is one result of experiential wisdom...an incredible topic of its own to consider. The more the persons of the universes of time identify with the Spirit, the more capable we become and the less susceptible to error we are and the less and less we will choose or suffer from sin itself. Or so I understand.

67:7.5 Evil and sin visit their consequences in material and social realms and may sometimes even retard spiritual progress on certain levels of universe reality, but never does the sin of any being rob another of the realization of the divine right of personality survival. Eternal survival can be jeopardized only by the decisions of the mind and the choice of the soul of the individual himself.

67:7.6 Sin on Urantia did very little to delay biologic evolution, but it did operate to deprive the mortal races of the full benefit of the Adamic inheritance. Sin enormously retards intellectual development, moral growth, social progress, and mass spiritual attainment. But it does not prevent the highest spiritual achievement by any individual who chooses to know God and sincerely do his divine will.

67:7.7 Caligastia rebelled, Adam and Eve did default, but no mortal subsequently born on Urantia has suffered in his personal spiritual experience because of these blunders. Every mortal born on Urantia since Caligastia's rebellion has been in some manner time-penalized, but the future welfare of such souls has never been in the least eternity- jeopardized. No person is ever made to suffer vital spiritual deprivation because of the sin of another. Sin is wholly personal as to moral guilt or spiritual consequences, notwithstanding its far-flung repercussions in administrative, intellectual, and social domains.

67:7.8 While we cannot fathom the wisdom that permits such catastrophes, we can always discern the beneficial outworking of these local disturbances as they are reflected out upon the universe at large.

54:6.6 At first the Lucifer upheaval appeared to be an unmitigated calamity to the system and to the universe. Gradually benefits began to accrue. With the passing of twenty-five thousand years of system time (twenty thousand years of Urantia time), the Melchizedeks began to teach that the good resulting from Lucifer's folly had come to equal the evil incurred. The sum of evil had by that time become almost stationary, continuing to increase only on certain isolated worlds, while the beneficial repercussions continued to multiply and extend out through the universe and superuniverse, even to Havona. The Melchizedeks now teach that the good resulting from the Satania rebellion is more than a thousand times the sum of all the evil.

54:6.7 But such an extraordinary and beneficent harvest of wrongdoing could only be brought about by the wise, divine, and merciful attitude of all of Lucifer's superiors, extending from the Constellation Fathers on Edentia to the Universal Father on Paradise. The passing of time has enhanced the consequential good to be derived from the Lucifer folly; and since the evil to be penalized was quite fully developed within a comparatively short time, it is apparent that the all-wise and farseeing universe rulers would be certain to extend the time in which to reap increasingly beneficial results. Regardless of the many additional reasons for delaying the apprehension and adjudication of the Satania rebels, this one gain would have been enough to explain why these sinners were not sooner interned, and why they have not been adjudicated and destroyed.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
What about the simple functioning of the adjutant mind spirits, and the human choice actions in the universe, and any interference I may have caused in the adjutant mind spirits.


I don't think you can interfere with the adjutants. You can ignore some of them but that does not affect them, it affects you. When it comes to human choice the most important choice is to do the will of the Father which is superadjutant.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Is there any way to know observatively or retrospectively to understand the shape that the universe has taken in lieu of my existences, and whatfor, or whymay has this shape occurred.


The activities of the five lower adjutants do not cause repercussions in the Supreme. The two higher adjutants which overlap the spiritual circuits of the Holy Spirit do cause repercussions in the Supreme, but through the Holy Spirit. Additionally, the religion of Jesus has no provision for spiritual self-evaluation. The actions you have made are entirely yours, but any spiritual consequences belong to the Father. Consequences which are not spiritual, which do not actualize truth, beauty or goodness, have no lasting effects.

(1096.1) 100:2.4 Spirituality becomes at once the indicator of one’s nearness to God and the measure of one’s usefulness to fellow beings. Spirituality enhances the ability to discover beauty in things, recognize truth in meanings, and discover goodness in values. Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
When you are looking at human actions consciously affirmative or subconsciously habituated, then in the postmodern sense do you think that all of the cookies and all of the footprints are accumulated as temporary, adjutant, actual assisting, and if so this could be upon a corporate individuality rather than a human individuality. Information, useless and ubiquitous to some, whereas much that I could glean contains the discernible imprint of others' thoughts.


The adjutants are impersonal and they never transmit experience from personality to another.

(1286.5) 117:5.7 The great circuits of energy, mind, and spirit are never the permanent possessions of ascending personality; these ministries remain forever a part of Supremacy. In the mortal experience the human intellect resides in the rhythmic pulsations of the adjutant mind-spirits and effects its decisions within the arena produced by encircuitment within this ministry. Upon mortal death the human self is everlastingly divorced from the adjutant circuit. While these adjutants never seem to transmit experience from one personality to another, they can and do transmit the impersonal repercussions of decision-action through God the Sevenfold to God the Supreme. (At least this is true of the adjutants of worship and wisdom.)


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