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fanofVan wrote:
Consider yourself advised! Hahahahha…. I am but another child in God's kingdom. I am no fount of wisdom or experience. I am very irritating even...apparently!!=') "."


Hahahaha! Oh dear ok I at least for now keep much of your words under advicement. [en wiki: "As Robert Browning (a modern historian, not the poet) observed: "Did Justinian really bring himself in the end to make a choice, or did Callinicus make it for him? Only Callinicus knew."" - Justin II]

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fanofVan wrote:
What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term.


But the phrase does appear in the Urantia Book:

(82.2) 7:1.3 Spirit realities respond to the drawing power of the center of spiritual gravity in accordance with their qualitative value, their actual degree of spirit nature. Spirit substance (quality) is just as responsive to spirit gravity as the organized energy of physical matter (quantity) is responsive to physical gravity. Spiritual values and spirit forces are real. From the viewpoint of personality, spirit is the soul of creation; matter is the shadowy physical body.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The Holy Spirit contains "the Father and Son and Spirit", and as a being is capable of Representing the First Source and Center to the mortal creature, as the impetus that (Who!) oversees the creature-evolution.


The Holy Spirit is a dual spirit consisting of the spirit of the Divine Minister (Universe Mother Spirit) and the spirit of the Infinite Spirit, (Third Source and Center).

(2062.6) 194:2.17 5. The spirit of the Infinite Spirit and the Universe Mother Spirit — the Holy Spirit, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Spirit.


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What does it mean to have"the Eye of the Tiger"?? That song means so much, "rising up through the Challenge of a Rival" except the Challenge which is presented to you in the Spirit of Truth the Challenge of JEsus' tutelage, by another, perhaps a brother or sister or mother who would try to show his own family a new way? How can we learn to, rather than suppress our animal urges, "give voice to them properly", "that we may learn to better to employ the full function (the fully functioning operation) of the human mechanism."??

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fanofVan wrote:
But we are promised that eventually, as we reach Paradise we will have perfected our motive to "seek" God's will and to be able to choose without self importance and self love..


The Perfector of Wisdom from Uversa reveals that when we reach Paradise we arrive with only one sort of perfection, the perfection of purpose. Perfection of purpose is defined below as a personality who is disappointment proof and who has sublime sincerity. That along with divinity of desire and steadfast faith secures entrance to Paradise.

(290.3) 26:4.13 When, through and by the ministry of all the helper hosts of the universal scheme of survival, you are finally deposited on the receiving world of Havona, you arrive with only one sort of perfection — perfection of purpose. Your purpose has been thoroughly proved; your faith has been tested. You are known to be disappointment proof. Not even the failure to discern the Universal Father can shake the faith or seriously disturb the trust of an ascendant mortal who has passed through the experience that all must traverse in order to attain the perfect spheres of Havona. By the time you reach Havona, your sincerity has become sublime. Perfection of purpose and divinity of desire, with steadfastness of faith, have secured your entrance to the settled abodes of eternity; your deliverance from the uncertainties of time is full and complete; and now must you come face to face with the problems of Havona and the immensities of Paradise, to meet which you have so long been in training in the experiential epochs of time on the world schools of space.
(290.4) 26:4.14 Faith has won for the ascendant pilgrim a perfection of purpose which admits the children of time to the portals of eternity. Now must the pilgrim helpers begin the work of developing that perfection of understanding and that technique of comprehension which are so indispensable to Paradise perfection of personality.


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fanofVan wrote:
Every mind has free will Stephen.


You mean HUMAN mind, don't you?


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fanofVan wrote:
The Spirit of Truth is an individual mind ministry that all minds share.


All minds do NOT share the ministry of the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth's ministry is almost wholly limited in function and power by man's personal reception of that which constitutes the sum and substance of the mission of Jesus.

(379.5) 34:5.5 Though the Spirit of Truth is poured out upon all flesh, this spirit of the Son is almost wholly limited in function and power by man’s personal reception of that which constitutes the sum and substance of the mission of the bestowal Son.

Jesus himself explained that not every person will accept his Spirit of Truth:

(1954.1) 181:1.4 “The Father sent me into this world, but only a few of you have chosen fully to receive me. I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh, but all men will not choose to receive this new teacher as the guide and counselor of the soul. But as many as do receive him shall be enlightened, cleansed, and comforted. And this Spirit of Truth will become in them a well of living water springing up into eternal life.

Jesus also explained that to those with faith (a gift to the soul by spirit) the ministry of his Spirit of Truth will teach "the way". Faith seems to be a prerequisite like the reception of the Master's mission.

(1796.1) 162:6.3 But now has come to this generation the revelation of the Father of spirits through the bestowal of his Son, and all of this will certainly be followed by the bestowal of the spirit of the Father and the Son upon the children of men. To every one who has faith shall this bestowal of the spirit become the true teacher of the way which leads to life everlasting, to the true waters of life in the kingdom of heaven on earth and in the Father’s Paradise over there.”

fanofVan wrote:
Isn't the Son's Spirit specific in its ministry to mortal ascenders?


The Spirit of Truth ministers to faith-sons. Mortals aren't called ascenders, or ascending sons, until after fusion. However, it is written that the Spirit of Truth will accompany ascending sons beyond the local universe.

40.6.1  The mortal races stand as the representatives of the lowest order of intelligent and personal creation. You mortals are divinely beloved, and every one of you may choose to accept the certain destiny of a glorious experience, but you are not yet by nature of the divine order; you are wholly mortal. You will be reckoned as ascending sons the instant fusion takes place, but the status of the mortals of time and space is that of faith sons prior to the event of the final amalgamation of the surviving mortal soul with some type of eternal and immortal spirit.

40.7.2  Your own races of surviving mortals belong to this group of the ascending Sons of God. You are now planetary sons, evolutionary creatures derived from the Life Carrier implantations and modified by the Adamic-life infusion, hardly yet ascending sons; but you are indeed sons of ascension potential — even to the highest heights of glory and divinity attainment — and this spiritual status of ascending sonship you may attain by faith and by freewill co-operation with the spiritualizing activities of the indwelling Adjuster. When you and your Adjusters are finally and forever fused, when you two are made one, even as in Christ Michael the Son of God and the Son of Man are one, then in fact have you become the ascending sons of God.

(1286:7) 117:5.9 While such spiritual influences as the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth are local universe ministrations, their guidance is not wholly confined to the geographic limitations of a given local creation. As the ascending mortal passes beyond the boundaries of his local universe of origin, he is not entirely deprived of the ministry of the Spirit of Truth which has so constantly taught and guided him through the philosophic mazes of the material and morontial worlds, in every crisis of ascension unfailingly directing the Paradise pilgrim, ever saying: "This is the way." When you leave the domains of the local universe, through the ministry of the spirit of the emerging Supreme Being and through the provisions of superuniverse reflectivity, you will still be guided in your Paradise ascent by the comforting directive spirit of the Paradise bestowal Sons of God.

fanofVan wrote:
And only on a planet by planet basis? Not universally?


All Avonal-bestowal planets get a Spirit of Truth upgrade with the Master's sovereignty and his Spirit of Truth; and all subsequent bestowal planets receive it as well.

(230.2) 20:6.9 Upon the completion of a Creator Son’s final bestowal the Spirit of Truth previously sent into all Avonal-bestowal worlds of that local universe changes in nature, becoming more literally the spirit of the sovereign Michael. This phenomenon takes place concurrently with the liberation of the Spirit of Truth for service on the Michael-mortal-bestowal planet. Thereafter, each world honored by a Magisterial bestowal will receive the same spirit Comforter from the sevenfold Creator Son, in association with that Magisterial Son, which it would have received had the local universe Sovereign personally incarnated as its bestowal Son.

fanofVan wrote:
Do the seraphim enjoy the Son's Spirit ministry? The descending Sons?


Do seraphim and descending Sons have souls?

fanofVan wrote:
The friendly conversation you claim to be having seems oddly disconnected on both sides from the other. Must just be me then?


Seems so.

fanofVan wrote:
What I am seeing is some profoundly important topics Stephen keeps bringing up that no one is addressing at all.


Aren't you the one who rails against people who try to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do? Are you now telling me what I should or should not be doing? If you see a fire, do you stand around screaming someone should put it out, or do you put it out? Stop screaming and get a bucket Bradly, and don't drag me into your personal fight. As Maryjo said, you're the only one exercised over Stephen's posts.

fanofVan wrote:
I said you "appear" to agree only because you do not object or dispute such declarations of Stephen.


But appearances can be deceiving, can't they? May I recommend that you stop worrying about what I'm doing and concentrate on what you're doing?

fanofVan wrote:
And yes, thank you...I remain in study and contemplation about your claims regarding soul and the Holy Spirit. I am discovering many new aspects of the power and role of the Holy Spirit.


You're welcome.


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fanofVan wrote:
. We cannot "save" others Stephen. We can only save ourselves and serve others.


If that is true, why did Jesus say this:

(1430.2) 130:2.4 There is no adventure in the course of mortal existence more enthralling than to enjoy the exhilaration of becoming the material life partner with spiritual energy and divine truth in one of their triumphant struggles with error and evil. It is a marvelous and transforming experience to become the living channel of spiritual light to the mortal who sits in spiritual darkness. If you are more blessed with truth than is this man, his need should challenge you. Surely you are not the coward who could stand by on the seashore and watch a fellow man who could not swim perish! How much more of value is this man’s soul floundering in darkness compared to his body drowning in water!”


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Every mind has free will Stephen.


You mean HUMAN mind, don't you?


Nope...I mean ALL mind above animal mind. Like angels and midwayers and all minds...as in all minds. Are there minds, above animal mind, that do not enjoy the gift of free will? How then is rebellion or error or sin even possible?

My aren't we in a snit???


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
myriad considerations from Nigel and Kat-roof, though somewhat mystifying, about how "the Holy Spirit" who came initially as the Spark that initiated life developments on Urantia, "can in fact emerge as a soul, an individuation of sentience".


Again, the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the spark of life. The spark of life comes from the Divine Minister. The other names for the Divine Minister are: Universe Divine Minister; Creative Spirit; Creative Daughter; Daughter Spirit; Spirit Daughter; Universe Mother Spirit; Universe Mother Creator; Universe Daughter; Mother Creator; Creative Mother Spirit; Mother Spirit; Spirit Mother; Coordinate Ministering Daughter.

Please note that NOWHERE is it mentioned that "Holy Spirit" is another name for the Divine Minister.

Please also note that the "spark of life" and the "breath of life" are the same thing.

(376.2) 34:2.5 In the later evolution of mortal creatures the Life Carrier Sons provide the physical body, fabricated out of the existing organized material of the realm, while the Universe Spirit contributes the “breath of life".

(399.6) 36:3.4 The vital spark — the mystery of life — is bestowed through the Life Carriers, not by them. They do indeed supervise such transactions, they formulate the life plasm itself, but it is the Universe Mother Spirit who supplies the essential factor of the living plasm. From the Creative Daughter of the Infinite Spirit comes that energy spark which enlivens enlivens the body and presages the mind.

Please, please note that the Holy Spirit is NOT mentioned anywhere in these references.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
But we are promised that eventually, as we reach Paradise we will have perfected our motive to "seek" God's will and to be able to choose without self importance and self love..


The Perfector of Wisdom from Uversa reveals that when we reach Paradise we arrive with only one sort of perfection, the perfection of purpose. Perfection of purpose is defined below as a personality who is disappointment proof and who has sublime sincerity. That along with divinity of desire and steadfast faith secures entrance to Paradise.

(290.3) 26:4.13 When, through and by the ministry of all the helper hosts of the universal scheme of survival, you are finally deposited on the receiving world of Havona, you arrive with only one sort of perfection — perfection of purpose. Your purpose has been thoroughly proved; your faith has been tested. You are known to be disappointment proof. Not even the failure to discern the Universal Father can shake the faith or seriously disturb the trust of an ascendant mortal who has passed through the experience that all must traverse in order to attain the perfect spheres of Havona. By the time you reach Havona, your sincerity has become sublime. Perfection of purpose and divinity of desire, with steadfastness of faith, have secured your entrance to the settled abodes of eternity; your deliverance from the uncertainties of time is full and complete; and now must you come face to face with the problems of Havona and the immensities of Paradise, to meet which you have so long been in training in the experiential epochs of time on the world schools of space.
(290.4) 26:4.14 Faith has won for the ascendant pilgrim a perfection of purpose which admits the children of time to the portals of eternity. Now must the pilgrim helpers begin the work of developing that perfection of understanding and that technique of comprehension which are so indispensable to Paradise perfection of personality.


Yes indeed. Of course "perfection of purpose" IS the very description of MOTIVE! You are still looking for disagreement where there is none! But continue to be disagreeable nonetheless. Go figure.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue May 28, 2019 7:16 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
. We cannot "save" others Stephen. We can only save ourselves and serve others.


If that is true, why did Jesus say this:

(1430.2) 130:2.4 There is no adventure in the course of mortal existence more enthralling than to enjoy the exhilaration of becoming the material life partner with spiritual energy and divine truth in one of their triumphant struggles with error and evil. It is a marvelous and transforming experience to become the living channel of spiritual light to the mortal who sits in spiritual darkness. If you are more blessed with truth than is this man, his need should challenge you. Surely you are not the coward who could stand by on the seashore and watch a fellow man who could not swim perish! How much more of value is this man’s soul floundering in darkness compared to his body drowning in water!”


To save one from a material drowning is but to be of service to others. Stephen's question and issue was specific about saving the souls of his family and others. Do you save souls kat? From what exactly?

I happen to think souls are safe without "saving" them. Did you ever notice that Jesus sent out the Apostles to "win" souls for the kingdom but not to save souls from hell fire and damnation, like the Baptists to come later?


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fanofVan wrote:
[ Nope...I mean ALL mind above animal mind. Like angels and midwayers and all minds...as in all minds. Are there minds, above animal mind, that do not enjoy the gift of free will? How then is rebellion or error or sin even possible?


But not all minds above the animal level have free will Bradly. There are minds without personality who do not have free will, such as the frandalanks. So what you really mean is all minds with personality, right?

fanofVan wrote:
Are My aren't we in a snit???


This is the second personal attack on me in two days. Please do not speak condescendingly to me as though I were a child. I see you do not enjoy being corrected, yet you tell me I should correct people who make mistakes in describing the Revelation. Why is that?

I am sincerely praying for you Bradly. May God give you insight and wisdom; may he open your heart and bring light to your mind.


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kat says above: "Aren't you the one who rails against people who try to tell other people what they should or shouldn't do? Are you now telling me what I should or should not be doing? If you see a fire, do you stand around screaming someone should put it out, or do you put it out? Stop screaming and get a bucket Bradly, and don't drag me into your personal fight. As Maryjo said, you're the only one exercised over Stephen's posts."

I don't tell others what to do or what they should do or shouldn't do. Above my pay grade. And I don't care what others choose to do. I'm pretty busy minding what I do and should and shouldn't do and making plenty of mistakes amidst my own choices. I'm asking you why you so often ignore the true issues Stephen offers? And reminding you that the issues you ignore are the bigger issues to him and more confusing issues to others and so your replies and "conversation" may not be nearly so relevant as you seem to think.

Stephen and I are not having a personal fight like you choosing to fight with me for some reason. Stephen has been posting beliefs and opinions here for many years as declarations of truth and as if originating in the UB with great authority but which demonstrate his fears and anxieties and disbeliefs in the UB. Recently and on this topic he has shared his anxiety about his own survival and that of others and declared he doesn't believe in free will and is holding onto his choice to perhaps terminate his ascension and his belief in pre-existence and pre-determination of mortal outcomes, among other critically vital topics of fundamental nature. These you choose to ignore???

My fire bucket has been full around here for a long time offering the contents of the UB regarding hope, trust, assurance, and the perspective of God's safe and friendly universe to all who come here to sincerely learn about this lighthouse of truth and assurance!! My bucket has been filled in many other ways too. But that's a bad analogy really....for I am not driven by any sense of urgency or emergency or danger or fear. Like the Master, my message is Fear Not and Trust the Lord. Evidently you do not know me after all.....or care to.

I am not exercised. Thanks anyway. I just believe in the guidelines here; that we gather to study one book together and its contents should be the center of the focus here related to all topics, discussions, and questions. Whenever Stephen or anyone else chooses to use this site as a platform and audience for declarations and proclamations which contradict the Revelation, I think those should be pointed out and the actual contents considered in contrast. Ignoring false claims and misrepresentations keeps a very false peace that results only in confusion and doubts as to the actual contents of that which we gather here to study.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
[ Nope...I mean ALL mind above animal mind. Like angels and midwayers and all minds...as in all minds. Are there minds, above animal mind, that do not enjoy the gift of free will? How then is rebellion or error or sin even possible?


But not all minds above the animal level have free will Bradly. There are minds without personality who do not have free will, such as the frandalanks. So what you really mean is all minds with personality, right?

fanofVan wrote:
Are My aren't we in a snit???


This is the second personal attack on me in two days. Please do not speak condescendingly to me as though I were a child. I see you do not enjoy being corrected, yet you tell me I should correct people who make mistakes in describing the Revelation. Why is that?

I am sincerely praying for you Bradly. May God give you insight and wisdom; may he open your heart and bring light to your mind.


Well....you found an exception...bully for you!

Funny....you don't think you are attacking me here and now? No anger? No sarcasm? Blue sky and flowers huh?

I'm happy to be corrected kat.

For example, while I did know that the Spirit of Truth is a ministry to mortal minds and is bestowed planet by planet and why I said it was not a universal ministry (as Stephen claims)...I lacked specificity so thank you.

I am impressed by your scholarship kat and look forward to learning much about the Revelation by your posts.


There is much about the UB and the truth and reality itself I have yet to learn and much I believe that is incorrect or incomplete. No worries....correct me as you wish. You appear quite eager to correct me and Nigel and Malaku...which makes me wonder why you let Stephen go on and on with false proclamations. Curious behavior indeed. You do know that he is not a new reader by any definition...right? His disagreements with the UB are not unintentional or accidental. Just so you know....


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue May 28, 2019 3:03 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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