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Actually, I did list the issues and claims I disagree with that were posted and the issue of not acknowledging or correcting those contradictions to the text and did so without comment on any personality I believe.


Up until the last few posts, including this one, that is...

Well, then...you've done what you can do - short of answering these issues yourself.

Maybe the fact that no one but yourself is exercised over these issues might tell you something. Maybe you are failing to see the bigger picture of what is going on here. In any event, if you see an issue - YOU should address it rather than admonish others about not doing so.


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Hi katroofjebus,

Getting back to the fascinating question of who, how and why regarding our souls, did you get a chance to look at Paper 40 section 5?

This section describes mortal survival [not by extrapolating intuitions about what an author may have intended, but] from the perspective of a Trinity embraced mortal finaliter ("Mighty Messenger", see 40:10.12).

In the three cases of soul survival explicitly described, all involve the activity of an Adjuster. Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?
40:5.4 wrote:
"Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension." (40:5.4)

PS: thanks for your thoughtful and patient responses these last few days.
Nigel


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nnunn wrote:
Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?


I think I already answered that. There are children with undeveloped souls who survive. How can an undeveloped soul survive without an associated immortal spirit endowment? –– a spirit who creates the capacity to realize survival, a spirit referred to as the Holy Spirit.

(531.5) 47:2.1 The infant-receiving schools of Satania are situated on the finaliter world, the first of the Jerusem transition-culture spheres. These infant-receiving schools are enterprises devoted to the nurture and training of the children of time, including those who have died on the evolutionary worlds of space before the acquirement of individual status on the universe records. In the event of the survival of either or both of such a child’s parents, the guardian of destiny deputizes her associated cherubim as the custodian of the child’s potential identity, charging the cherubim with the responsibility of delivering this undeveloped soul into the hands of the Mansion World Teachers in the probationary nurseries of the morontia worlds.

(1478.5) 133:6.6 “The saving or losing of a soul has to do with whether or not the moral consciousness attains survival status through eternal alliance with its associated immortal spirit endowment.


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fanofVan wrote:
manner of false claims about free will and Stephen's demands for (civil) liberty


It sound strange that people would attempt to dissuade me about how such Society exists. Jemima Wilkinson definetly was a Quaker before her NDE, and the traditions of abolition (abolitionist?), of free right to worship, and the quorum necessary for group decision, all abide in Him. Then you have the military hierarchy, where strategies and plans are known by the fourth industrial estate, as citizens explain them. You have lieutenants advicing generals, and asking permission for the plans that they have made.

how I plied into what constitutes the nature of a free will decision: as you can imagine, I am so frustrated and disenchanted by the games human beings have been playing with each others, from video-replays of the Roman Conquest, to tricky politics of "Grant Writing", it all superveighles the true theory that the Urantia Book presents of "a friendly universe", a universe where evolutionary creatures ascend and do ascend, and in their families encourage this and socialises a deeper more existential goal of "the First Source and Center's faith in the mortal creature."

The Spirit of Truth will collect every ascender and bring us all into one family. The "Two" could refer to the primary Administration for creature-series life, in the likeness of the married partner Adam-Eve of Jerusem, and the "or more" could refer to any sentient being, human or fallen, who elects to find the First Source and Center, attain likeness with the Universal Father, from Nebadon. You have the examples Adam & Eve of Jerusem, and the Michael and the Divine Minister, who are separately levels of how such sanctification occurs. Jesus, as Supreme Representative took no mortal partner of Urantia, but his decisions were perhaps universal, sanctified by the Divine Minister. As a man, or a son of man, you should try to affirm your choices both in the estimation of mature women, and the Divine Minister.

katroofjebus wrote:
nnunn wrote:
Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?

The Holy Spirit contains "the Father and Son and Spirit", and as a being is capable of Representing the First Source and Center to the mortal creature, as the impetus that (Who!) oversees the creature-evolution. When the Holy Spirit awakens as a new soul, there is another entity sent from Paradise to help such soul to recognise the First Source and Center. When you say that an evolutionary creautre makes a "significant enough choice", so as to have received such gift? Then they are comparable to Adam & Eve, the representatives of the Second Source and Center, and such tribes are capable of actually representing the Universal Father to seraphim.

You would have to see that "the Holy Spirit" is the father of every mortal creature, and that these beings? The Life Carriers & the Melchizedek, are "our mothers, and God's sons". An individuating Holy Spirit within each of us, a Son of Man, one (a Child, an Orphan Child of the Universe) who actually is "Father, Son, and Spirit", and called by JEsus "my mother, my brother, and my sister", THAT (but see the self-same individuating soul-entity as would allow "you" to bear witness to such truth) Whom allows any of us "to actually see the First Source and Center". That is the true implicity of "Lak'ech aL a Kin": "you are also the Holy Spirit".

See that is a very difficult intellectual-rational truth to understand: that as the soul of a man/woman is Born again into another human individual, say from your own family even, He, you know an Artist formerly recognised as a prince/princess, (formerly "it", a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit within that one") must be regulated by the constraints of universe activity and learn how trinity function applies to each sentient individual. This is not to say that such being "a Son of Man, who is the Holy Spirit reborn as a human individual within each person 'capable of knowing truth beauty and goodness'", as you say, does not already know "Who He Is"; in fact if true, any soul "Born of the Spirit" would indeed know unconsciously "Who He Is". Rather, I suggest when human psychology is revealed to human individuals by the revelation of the impact on their choices, in the activity of the home or the cosmic economy, I or one must then begin to negotiate and evolve through the strenuous ascencionary path, even the Sissyphaean or iliadic Journey, that perhaps only an individuated parcel of the First Source and Center could reveal to that person. In other words such Journey, the journey of every individualised spirit to ever have returned to the eternal life of servitude in Paradise, must be personally experiencible. In other words, I want to share my experiences not only with all other human individuals, but with every finalitor, and every sentient being Whom is capable of knowing me "in truth beauty and goodness". I do not need the approval of other human individuals, but I crave to teach you that you must gain such approval of the First Source and Center, and you must learn the faith of the human individual if not from your own work then from knowledge in/of the life of Jesus. And if "your own society" i.e. "the society 'that of the world-state' or 'that of the family'" could reflect this need for children, i.e. "human individuals", to become finalitors, how much more individualised could each person from your family become?

In this, I think you must realise that although Jesus may be the only example of universal experienced, to be recognised as one who shared his trials and tribulations with mankind not in sorrow but in eternally-revealing awesome joy, but rather a father or mother should recognise that every child has the opportunity to become finalitors, and share their universal experiences with all other (infinite) Deities.* The difference is knowing the difference between "having an origin as a Spirit", and the moral recognition of the Second Source and Center, and "being able to ascend" the potential to become a father of universes. If you realise what I am saying, you should no longer crave to know the universal father "in Word" i.e. "contractural obligations", but rather in deed and in the spirit of truth.

*Not just the Deities who have attained the Universal Absolute, or who can still attain the life of the Universal Absolute, but even the Deities (Thought Adjusters who forfeit the Life of the Soul) who have returned to the Unqualified Absolute. You would have to believe, that the Chief Thought Adjuster (you know the one who indwellt Machiventa & Jesus), if real, would have the responsibility to rule over this "unqualified existence in the life of" the Holy Spirit, in such souls as have failed to ascend, would seek means to device how "the Life in THE Holy Spirit" would return thereto (not Urantia but the universe), if "A" Holy Spirit has finally ceased to find means for maturation (psychological ascension) through current apparatus or life-format.

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The Roman Empire witnessed the poor-animal stewardship of the Maccabaean Empire long ago, seeing that the # of Tribes for that People, was decreasing rather than increasing. It is very disturbing to think that I am an animal-evolutionary Holy Spirit, witnessing "Halal Killings" of Lambs & Dogs, and do such highly-evolved beings have something close to what can be considered a spirit, or a soul? Where goes that "the Soul of a Creation" when a person decides, within the cosmic economy to end one life??? I do not care how primitive it seems, but this is the true representation of a human soul, and we should be attempting to forge new Creation Patterns, rather than reveling in the mirth of slaughter. The Roman Empire went to Jerusalem in A.D. 70 not to slaughter a people, but to end the pattern of civilization that had threatened the potentials of their existence, not only the potentials of their civilization, but the potentials of any civilization.

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Stephen...so many declarations and proclamations the past few days...hard to know where to start. Your many posts over the years contain certain elements of your personal beliefs that appear to profoundly conflict with the UB. The quotes below are some recent examples of those beliefs. You are very consistent in your claims of pre-existence. You also seem to support the ideas of fate or predetermined outcomes. You seem quite confused about the UB's portrayal of free will and its absolute nature and purpose for each personality in the universe of universes. And then there is the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth declarations you so boldly make here.

Your unwillingness to post supporting text makes it so difficult to examine your claims in light of the actual contents of the UB for you would not make so many of such claims if you first posted any text in support of them...I am sure.

Below in red is one of your most recurring themes over the years. It was the very thesis of your topic - "Lucifer Doing God's Will when he made Declaration of Liberty" - that there really is no such thing as free will anywhere or rebels would not be punished and you could do anything you wish - absolute and unlimited and unrestricted liberty - without any consequences for the choices made - you claim there is only Divine Will and Lucifer was doing God's will. You have always supported false liberty here Stephen...as you do so again below. While free will and personal liberty is certainly related to the topic here of personality and identity, perhaps we should start a topic dedicated to that issue specifically?

Stephen says above: "I would regard "the birth of" a soul as a meaningful milestone, that differentiates the soul of mankind from the soul of the human individual. Bear in mind that every soul, before it is "born", in the sense of individuated sentience has its life there in the Holy Spirit. Bear in mind that a human soul is regarded as like "the least of my children", compared to a sanobim. That each one, each soul, is holy and precious, in its potential to diverge from the establish system of homeworld, and become like that which is universal. The Holy Spirit represents the evolving soul of mankind, until such time as the Adjuster Fragments are able to represent, individually, man as human individuals, ascenders of Paradise and yet there is a continuation of the life of the Holy Spirit, responsible for the preexistence and birth of the soul, that is not lost, preserved in tact throughout this journey."

Stephen says above: "The pattern is for something universal to emerge as persons, indiviudals who can become universal, in an accelerated but reciprocal journey to the Source we came out of."

Stephen says above: "See that is a very difficult intellectual-rational truth to understand: that as the soul of a man/woman is Born again into another human individual, say from your own family even, He, you know an Artist formerly recognised as a prince/princess, (formerly "it", a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit within that one") must be regulated by the constraints of universe activity and learn how trinity function applies to each sentient individual."

Me here: There is a significant body of text which clearly teaches us that there is no pre-existence for mortals or for souls or for any creature at all but one in all the universe of universes. The very notion of pre-existence contradicts so many important elements of universe reality and the life of all ascenders and the originality of all persons and personalities. Our journey to our Source is not reciprocal but is our first trip which originates from Urantia for us...for we did not exist...not you or I or anyone prior to their birth here on Urantia. Likewise does the teaching of pre-determination or fate/destiny completely contradict the teachings of free will. We only enjoy potential destiny which can only be attained by the manner of our personal choices in this life....the only life we have....which begins here.

Stephen says above: "the Thought Adjuster may be functioning within the center of progress, you know as it is written "like a pilot light or a spiritual nucleus", all along. But such conquest is marked because of the greater set new challenges that such human must inevitably face. The preparation of growth prepares the unconsciousness in the personality to perform on a greater stage, a plane of existence within the psychic circle. ...

I agree with your analysis. I do not understand what is meant by "free-will choice" as to me choice must be acceptible according to the possibility of circumstance in the fulfillment of God's will."


Me here: Yes Stephen, you've been very clear about this belief. You do not believe in free will choice that is not pre-approved and by someone else...some authority figure that needs to rubber stamp and confirm your decisions, therefore the choices you make today - to believe what you believe and do what you do today - you somehow do appear to consider free will at all or decisions or choices but this declaration contradicts other proclamations of yours about perfected free will - so confusing. And yet the UB is so clear that we do choose...every day, all day long...and it is by the decisions we make and our motives and intentions which determine our choices are what makes us into who we are - we choose who we are by every choice we make. Every religion and philosophy on the world today - including the Gospel of Jesus and the UB - acknowledges and accepts and promotes this universal truth that we reap what we sow. Our decisions and choices are the seeds sown...the results, repercussions, and consequences, including our very formative being and character, are the harvest to come.

You deny this over and over and over. In complete contradiction to the UB and almost all known philosophies and religions. Free will does not come later. Maturity and experience does not come first. Maturity and experience come only from and by the decisions made by free will choice over time. God does not choose for us. The Adjuster does not choose for us. Nor the Holy Spirit or adjutants or angels or any other agent or agency. It is forbidden by God for anyone, including God and all Deity, to interfere with our free will. Doesn't happen. Can't happen. Will never happen. God does not require that our will be the same as God's will. That's why it's called "free" "will" - it is personal and we self determine what OUR will is. If we are wise and can discern our relationship with God, we will choose the Spirit nature within and seek God and strive to dedicate our will to God's....but we will never be so wise as to know what God would do as we will never be perfect. But we are promised that eventually, as we reach Paradise we will have perfected our motive to "seek" God's will and to be able to choose without self importance and self love. This must be enough for us.

Stephen says above: "That is not something I would choose, because I want will that is truly unlimited. You say that the Infinite Father I AM consciousness has unlimited will and capacity thereof. But what about the supernal potential of each man, not only in his life but in his destiny. This is if in the circumstance of a very patient man, who is willing to withhold his own desire until they could be truly fulfilled. If free will is what you say it is, then that is because you say you are constrained by circumstance, rather than blessed with circumstance."

God the Father is the source of all will and all reality, so if you have a chance to become like that, no longer constrained by your humanity, and in this life allowing for the full possibility of the Thought Adjuster to coordinate the unknown potentials of the seven universes, and the central universe the life that you can have, if you allow it to happen then it would be unlimited.

Stephen says above: "Ok Jim: only as long as continuational expansion of potentiality for every being, every universe creature of the Holy Spirit. here we go constrained once again by some sophisticated stratification of what may or should be determined "healthy" for another individual? I do not know how that. I just think that I would be unable to make any real choices as katroof suggesting "with my free will", unless or until if I am in Paradise, if I am free to enter and leave Paradise, beginning my postultimate career.


Stephen says above: We have awkward ways of explaining how "mortal creatures have free will." This explanation is not satisfying partly due to the obscurity of language, and partly due to not understanding the difference between will and the recognition of opportunity. The universe opportunities for my soul have not been fully revealed, so why should I be told to choose now? It is spoken in such generalities, much like the way "Holy Spirit" is spoken of: something or someone that is universal, whereas Holy Spirit represents the prime perfection urge of every creature both as an individuated life form and as a planetary bestowal. I can agree that every creature shares in the will of God, but to be honest, I would need to have more time and better understanding about the nature of will, not to increase my capacity at manipulating universe differentials, but to simply identify the moments wherein I would have been acting in the capacity of will. If it is true that my soul was part of my mother's soul until I was able to diverge and have my mind develop on its own, well but I have a whole set of pre-existing urges that I have not sorted out in terms of individuality, to free her from the scorn I placed on her, and to let her become like the Universal Father as an eventuality of her own spirit. I would have to unbraid all of this black rope, the interplay of individual creature will acts, until at least I can see to the moment of the beginning of the divergence of spirit into forces and the material components of the universe. And if I were successful at extricating all of the karma, on the level of discernment, would I observe the acts of creation by the existential beings, or would I see each creature's creation as comprised of God's will, their identities or form emerging out of primal will and therefore their propensities to act somewhat circumscribed by what the First Source and Center had bestowed upon them before the beginning. And then, sorry to sound so shakespearaean, Having my own thread, my own universe ideal to become Trinitized, but if I have become split from the chorus of universe activity, would I be able to effectively employ God's will "as my own" (see I do not understand this) or must I have been joined with the fullness of life all along to even have a hope at abiding in the will of God, let alone understanding the nature of will, or God's will, let alone my own free will if any.

I ask you Nigel, or someone who will attain Paradise in the interest of the post-ultimate Reality, to remember I have asked you this question. Suppose I fail of survival and you as a Holy Spirit human ascender being, have been given all things in the kingdom of heaven, and having attained Paradise, gained the full attainment of expressible personality. Then you remember someone who as a soul obliviated, asking "was there any choice all along?" my request that even if you know, or think you know the answer to this question now, but to answer only after you have gained the fullness of truth.

Also, Nigel, I do not understand "free will choices" because you or no one has answered my question from a few years ago: "what did Jesus mean when he told Judas Iscariot, "we are all of one flesh."? [UB 138:5.1]"

For instance, "did the Infinite Spirit have any choice when flashing the Central Universe in its full creation?" "did the Eternal Mother have any choice when He became a being in the likeness of tripartate flesh?" Compared to the "choices" or selections that humans appear to make in a marketplace society, what a human is truly seeking of acquisition, and then you cannot blame the planet for all the disappointment and desperation you have accrued as the result of "purchasing" "that which your family should have made for itself".

And then look at the obsurdity of Thought Adjusters. The Bestowal comes after the human being has made his first choice. But doesn't this mean that we do not know the well-developed psyche? That God must have known in the life of each being, before such being had the reason to make any choice. What is the prerelationship of will before the creature has made the choice, especially between that human individual and the Thought Adjuster? The Child's Will is still part of God's will? And before choices are made, there is said to be little differentiation between the mother and the child, the child actually "depending on" the mother for the impression of the universe.


Me here: Again do we see the confusion about whose will is who's? Every mind has free will Stephen. Every one. We choose. We may choose to align our will with God. We may dedicate our will to God. But still is our individual will our own individual will...and God's will is God's.

Please provide text support that the Infinite Spirit created the Central Universe. What is "tripartate flesh"?

The absurdity of Thought Adjusters? What "prerelationship of will"? The Adjuster does not and will not interfere with our free will Stephen. The sanctity of free will is absolute...without exception.

It is unfortunate for us all, and especially you Stephen, that so many of your misunderstandings and misrepresentations are not addressed by others here, thereby leaving you and all others here so confused by what the actual contents of the UB teaches us about all these profoundly important issues you so eagerly distort here.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The Roman Empire witnessed the poor-animal stewardship of the Maccabaean Empire long ago, seeing that the # of Tribes for that People, was decreasing rather than increasing. It is very disturbing to think that I am an animal-evolutionary Holy Spirit, witnessing "Halal Killings" of Lambs & Dogs, and do such highly-evolved beings have something close to what can be considered a spirit, or a soul? Where goes that "the Soul of a Creation" when a person decides, within the cosmic economy to end one life??? I do not care how primitive it seems, but this is the true representation of a human soul, and we should be attempting to forge new Creation Patterns, rather than reveling in the mirth of slaughter. The Roman Empire went to Jerusalem in A.D. 70 not to slaughter a people, but to end the pattern of civilization that had threatened the potentials of their existence, not only the potentials of their civilization, but the potentials of any civilization.


Stephen - you are NOT an "animal-evolutionary Holy Spirit". Not by any definition of those words found in the UB. You cannot just jumble up random words Stephen and consider them real or with meaning.

And no...according to the UB animals do not have a spirit or soul.

What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term. Are you asking about suicide? …."to end one life?" Or murder? The path of the soul is described in detail in the UB, no matter the manner of the death of the body.

And more ill advised and immature and inaccurate politics??? Really?

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fanofVan wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:

Stephen - you are NOT an "animal-evolutionary Holy Spirit". :x

And no...according to the UB animals do not have a spirit or soul. :-#

What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term. Are you asking about suicide? …."to end one life?" Or murder? The path of the soul is described in detail in the UB, no matter the manner of the death of the body.

Pattern of Creation comes out of the Central Universe, and you will have the opportunity "to draw from" those, if you are having become the finalitor, one who is a father of universes, capable of using Pattern of Creation from the existential reality in the existing life of the outer universes, as settlers all. The "Soul of Creation" is the Holy Spirit, that which (Who!) is brought into new life-developments, as we have known in the seventh universe, the same gift that the Divine Minister of Nebadon has bestowed upon Urantia. In all my explanations, I have made my best attempt "to draw from" the Urantia Book, and I have already explained fully what I may have meant by "Holy Spirit" or "individual human soul" in my "Replies to Topic"; meanwhile Makalu and no sophist is providing numerous insights, you and I have truly dealt with the differences between "What is faith-assurance?" and "the anxieties that a mortal creature has faced before seeking the first source and center as a refuge of his own faith", and then this conversation has actually evolved into Nigel and Kat-Roof's stalwart explanations as to "the identity of an emerging soul" and "the constitution and precedent of the free will choice", I have to sall all very remarkable. And Mary Jo Bonita has very much been gracious in her supernal tolerance of overall considerations from every member of the group.

Okay no I am not asking about suicide: I am theorizing about how jointly (a) the Life of the Holy Spirit returns thereto and (b) what happens to Thought Adjuster when make that decision "I will do better not as an ascender"? Not my friend who passed but all human individuals might wonder about their eternal survival, and "if the fear of the Lord returns to them", find faith in reconciliation unto the plans that such individualised Father Fragment may still have and do all that they can to save* their families in this new and modern age. Suicide is another topic, just a fact, I do not really want to talk about.

to save their families: to help each member of the family find salvation as a soul

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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
The desire to teach is only effective when the other party is wishing to learn and sharing agreement in subject...good luck with that with your current "student" and "conversation".


Sorry? All teachers are students and all students become teachers. We are learning from one another, which is what sharing and socializing the personality is all about.

(647.5) 56:10.14 Every impulse of every electron, thought, or spirit is an acting unit in the whole universe. Only sin is isolated and evil gravity resisting on the mental and spiritual levels. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Self-realization is potentially evil if it is antisocial. It is literally true: "No man lives by himself." Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Said Jesus: "He who would be greatest among you, let him become server of all."

Have you had a chance to review all the answers I gave to your questions directed at me a few days ago? Rather than criticizing a friendly conversation that you're really not a part of, why not develop the conversation we were having? Have you forgotten? I spent a lot of time with the hope of developing a discussion, sharing ideas and socializing our personalities. Any thoughts?

fanofVan wrote:
Stephen definitively stated where two or more are present " is necessary in the function of the Spirit of Truth." This falsehood was not corrected or even addressed by you really.


That's because Stephen is essentially correct in that two persons are necessary for a relationship. The Spirit of Truth is one person, any other person, or persons, will do. And incidentally, I already provided the reference to group leadership in the conversation. Perhaps you missed it? Here it is again for your perusal:

katroofjebus wrote:
When it comes to group decisions, I remember what Jesus said, "where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.” He also said: "Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership." Sooner or later a leader pops up in a group of people, and when that happens, I have to assume it's God's doing, but that doesn't mean you follow the leader blindly.


Stephen is NOT "essentially correct" kat. Come on. We seem to be swallowing camels here while rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic of this conversation.

Stephen claims two or more PEOPLE must be gathered to bring the function of the Spirit of Truth. Nothing true about that at all. The Spirit of Truth is an individual mind ministry that all minds share. He has also claimed that this Spirit is universal to all sentient beings...also not true. Isn't the Son's Spirit specific in its ministry to mortal ascenders? And only on a planet by planet basis? Not universally? Do the seraphim enjoy the Son's Spirit ministry? The descending Sons?

Stephen was discussing decision making by one's self and in groups and discovering authority and validation for such decisions. Why not deal with the issue raised? That's what I meant when I said you two appear to be talking past one another rather than to one another. The friendly conversation you claim to be having seems oddly disconnected on both sides from the other. Must just be me then? I'm not finding any agreement or mutual understanding to appreciate. Sorry.

What I am seeing is some profoundly important topics Stephen keeps bringing up that no one is addressing at all. In hopes of being agreeable and avoid all conflict, it appears to me that a confused mind is being left to flap in the winds of befuddlement while the new readers among us are being fed pre-existence, pre-determination, pet souls, the myth of fate and lack of free will, and many other falsehoods that Stephen repeats over and over again regarding universe organization and function, seeking confirmation of his beliefs and those without correction by text and teachings. I said you "appear" to agree only because you do not object or dispute such declarations of Stephen.

And yes, thank you...I remain in study and contemplation about your claims regarding soul and the Holy Spirit. I am discovering many new aspects of the power and role of the Holy Spirit.

8)


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You simply must ask yourself, before you bolt your driving implications, Bradley, "are you being social or am I being social?" When I say that a man should be able to put down the life that he has in the flesh, and you insinuate or make attempt "To put down my own words", in the suggestion to have others "ignore what I say".?!?. Consider what he says, for indeed the implications that he gives may apply to his own psyche, even as I would rule my own soul as a human individual. "Two or more People" i.e. "Two or more persons", distinct individuals, don't forget "in Jesus' Name" (Jesus' name is 'the son of man') or "in the Name of 'The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'", equally-valuable transliterations, as a de facto stipulation on that if you consider the true origin and nature OF the Spirit of Truth, Sir. Because I would just ask you, again and again, because you DO claim to be as a Spiritual Advisor, and thought I am very afraid of the impact I may have on my parents and brothers, and people whom I would consider family in general, I DO try to make the ways of my family and my community according to the truth as you have explained it to me: teach me how to become as a son of man. See, this is what is so valueable to me: to know that I have led this life in the Holy Spirit "out of unqualified existences", rather than simply allowed the divine covenant to be brought to Urantia from Heaven.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Last edited by SEla_Kelly on Tue May 28, 2019 10:26 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:

Stephen - you are NOT an "animal-evolutionary Holy Spirit". :x

And no...according to the UB animals do not have a spirit or soul. :-#

What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term. Are you asking about suicide? …."to end one life?" Or murder? The path of the soul is described in detail in the UB, no matter the manner of the death of the body.

Pattern of Creation comes out of the Central Universe, and you will have the opportunity "to draw from" those, if you are having become the finalitor, one who is a father of universes, capable of using Pattern of Creation from the existential reality in the existing life of the outer universes, as settlers all. The "Soul of Creation" is the Holy Spirit, that which (Who!) is brought into new life-developments, as we have known in the seventh universe, the same gift that the Divine Minister of Nebadon has bestowed upon Urantia.

Okay no I am not asking about suicide: I am theorizing about how jointly (a) the Life of the Holy Spirit returns thereto and (b) what happens to Thought Adjuster when make that decision "I will do better not as an ascender"? Not my friend who passed but all human individuals might wonder about their eternal survival, and "if the fear of the Lord returns to them", find faith in reconciliation unto the plans that such individualised Father Fragment may still have and do all that they can to save* their families in this new and modern age. Suicide is another topic I do not really want to talk about.

to save their families: to help each member of the family find salvation as a soul


The Holy Spirit is not any individual person Stephen so the Holy Spirit goes nowhere upon the death of any being, whether temporary or the self termination of any mind by its own free will choice. You've asked about choosing self destruction before Stephen...several times in fact...usually in relation to our mansion world experience and as it relates to free will choice.

The UB teaches that self destruction is permanent. No do overs. No temporary self terminations. The exception to that I think is material suicide but even that is not certain. There are several topics and discussion here at TB about it to consider. Personally, I don't think suicide is permanent or a final choice of non-existence. It is an immature and inexperienced choice of temporal suffering and distress and desperation...in our culture, while in others it is motivated by perceived honor and obligation. But we are told of God's near-endless patience and mercy and affection and the universal preservation of potential. Therefore, I think it takes a consciousness of choice to self terminate that cannot be attained during the material life.

The TA never makes the decision of "I will do better not as an Ascender". We have no choice but ascension Stephen. It is ascend or perish because we choose to perish. We cannot "save" others Stephen. We can only save ourselves and serve others. All souls are safe Stephen. The are saved merely by faith and trust and love. It's really not so difficult. We are designed and created and born to prosper in soul and by the Spirit and we are given plenty of time to find our way and make better and better choices along the way. Fear not Stephen...all is well and all will be well in God's kingdom. The turmoil and suffering on this confused world is only temporal and truly insignificant compared to what is coming...personally, planetarily, and universally.

As I endlessly preach brother....this is a friendly universe ruled by love. Worry not and be not anxious. We may trust God for all good things to come. Evolution is only scary within its midst in this brief life, but not when viewed by the proper time unit lens. Faith brings assurance. Help others feel assured of God's greatness and goodness. Be the example of sublime peace of mind....for that is all any of us can do I think.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
The Holy Spirit is not any individual person Stephen


I ask All: "Do not slay this possibility," when amazingly enough we are dealing with, in this conversation about (a) the Identity of the Universal Father (b) the Potential in the Holy Spirit to become like the Universal Father (c) Elaborate and myriad considerations from Nigel and Kat-roof, though somewhat mystifying, about how "the Holy Spirit" who came initially as the Spark that initiated life developments on Urantia, "can in fact emerge as a soul, an individuation of sentience".

Okay: the Holy Spirit is unindividuated (undifferentiated spiritualsubstance) and the Universal Father shall employ Trinity Function (in the maintenance, gratification, and preservation of the Grand Universe); two separate theories! I feel that I can fulfilled the maximum life-potential of any Form, but my parents could have chosen for me any Name, but one must know experiencially "to have, look after, and profide for a family of one's own", must apply both on Urantia as on Paradise.

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fanofVan wrote:
What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term. Are you asking about suicide? …."to end one life?" Or murder? :cry:

I have assessed fanofVan as blind for a while. So I am just citing this quote for the rest of readers to see:
Quote:
7:1.3 (82.2) Spirit realities respond to the drawing power of the center of spiritual gravity in accordance with their qualitative value, their actual degree of spirit nature. Spirit substance (quality) is just as responsive to spirit gravity as the organized energy of physical matter (quantity) is responsive to physical gravity. Spiritual values and spirit forces are real. From the viewpoint of personality, spirit is the soul of creation; matter is the shadowy physical body.

Please also note that fanofVan has been touting his evil "truth assurance" for years, though it never appears once in the papers.

If we cannot stop fanofVan from keep making false accusations and false assertions, his account should be killed off for good, though I don't mind he re-register with a less deceptive handle.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
You simply must ask yourself, before you bolt your driving implications, Bradley, "are you being social or am I being social?" When I say that a man should be able to put down the life that he has in the flesh, and you insinuate or make attempt "To put down my own words", in the suggestion to have others "ignore what I say".?!?. Consider what he says, for indeed the implications that he gives may apply to his own psyche, even as I would rule my own soul as a human individual. "Two or more People" i.e. "Two or more persons", distinct individuals, don't forget "in Jesus' Name" (Jesus' name is 'the son of man') or "in the Name of 'The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'", equally-valuable transliterations, as a de facto stipulation on that if you consider the true origin and nature OF the Spirit of Truth, Sir. Because I would just ask you, again and again, because you DO claim to be as a Spiritual Advisor, and thought I am very afraid of the impact I may have on my parents and brothers, and people whom I would consider family in general, I DO try to make the ways of my family and my community according to the truth as you have explained it to me: teach me how to become as a son of man. See, this is what is so valueable to me: to know that I have led this life in the Holy Spirit "out of unqualified existences", rather than simply allowed the divine covenant to be brought to Urantia from Heaven.


???????????????????????????????????????????????

:?: :?: :?: :-s :? Confused...

Nope...never claimed to be anyone's Spiritual Advisor. Not yours and not anybody else either. God is our advisor. My advice is to pray to God and seek personal counsel there. But I am happy to consider what the Revelation advises us all. Indeed, I thought that was our purpose here....but lately I wonder....

Stephen....we are all babes, truly tadpoles, with so much to learn and do. First we must learn how to be motivated by our aspirations and ideals and follow the spirit influence within. Then we begin to make better choices and learn better how to choose at every intersection of choice. It comes together slowly. We must only do the best we know how to do and learn to be patient with our own transcendence and ascendency. It will come and it happens one decision at a time over time. Do not demand too much of yourself. Allow yourself to enjoy being a tadpole. We only get to be tadpole one time in this eternal adventure! Enjoy! All of us and each of us must live life and make these choices for ourselves. Simply encourage others with your own courage and faith and assurance and peace of mind.

Consider yourself advised! Hahahahha…. I am but another child in God's kingdom Stephen. I am no fount of wisdom or experience. I am very irritating even...apparently!! = )

:wink: :biggrin:


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supermath wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
What is "the Soul of Creation"? Not a UB term. Are you asking about suicide? …."to end one life?" Or murder? :cry:

I have assessed fanofVan as blind for a while. So I am just citing this quote for the rest of readers to see:
Quote:
7:1.3 (82.2) Spirit realities respond to the drawing power of the center of spiritual gravity in accordance with their qualitative value, their actual degree of spirit nature. Spirit substance (quality) is just as responsive to spirit gravity as the organized energy of physical matter (quantity) is responsive to physical gravity. Spiritual values and spirit forces are real. From the viewpoint of personality, spirit is the soul of creation; matter is the shadowy physical body.

Please also note that fanofVan has been touting his evil "truth assurance" for years, though it never appears once in the papers.

If we cannot stop fanofVan from keep making false accusations and false assertions, his account should be killed off for good, though I don't mind he re-register with a less deceptive handle.


Thanks for the reference!! Still, the soul of creation, or the Spirit does not retreat or go anywhere when any being chooses self destruction...which was the question. Lots of material here to contribute to and comment on. Speaking of deceptive handles...mine at least has remained the same my whole tenure here. You?

The assurance of faith and truth is evil??? Wow.

Keyword search: assurance

https://truthbook.com/search/UBParagrap ... &start=all

101:0.3 Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance.

101:1.6 Faith unites moral insight with conscientious discriminations of values, and the pre-existent evolutionary sense of duty completes the ancestry of true religion. The experience of religion eventually results in the certain consciousness of God and in the undoubted assurance of the survival of the believing personality.

101:2.14 Your deepest nature—the divine Adjuster—creates within you a hunger and thirst for righteousness, a certain craving for divine perfection. Religion is the faith act of the recognition of this inner urge to divine attainment; and thus is brought about that soul trust and assurance of which you become conscious as the way of salvation, the technique of the survival of personality and all those values which you have come to look upon as being true and good.

101:2.15 The realization of religion never has been, and never will be, dependent on great learning or clever logic. It is spiritual insight, and that is just the reason why some of the world's greatest religious teachers, even the prophets, have sometimes possessed so little of the wisdom of the world. Religious faith is available alike to the learned and the unlearned.

101:2.16 Religion must ever be its own critic and judge; it can never be observed, much less understood, from the outside. Your only assurance of a personal God consists in your own insight as to your belief in, and experience with, things spiritual. To all of your fellows who have had a similar experience, no argument about the personality or reality of God is necessary, while to all other men who are not thus sure of God no possible argument could ever be truly convincing.

101:5.13 Evolutionary religion provides only the assurance of faith and the confirmation of conscience; revelatory religion provides the assurance of faith plus the truth of a living experience in the realities of revelation. The third step in religion, or the third phase of the experience of religion, has to do with the morontia state, the firmer grasp of mota. Increasingly in the morontia progression the truths of revealed religion are expanded; more and more you will know the truth of supreme values, divine goodnesses, universal relationships, eternal realities, and ultimate destinies.

101:5.14 Increasingly throughout the morontia progression the assurance of truth replaces the assurance of faith. When you are finally mustered into the actual spirit world, then will the assurances of pure spirit insight operate in the place of faith and truth or, rather, in conjunction with, and superimposed upon, these former techniques of personality assurance.

102:3.9 Knowledge yields pride in the fact of personality; wisdom is the consciousness of the meaning of personality; religion is the experience of cognizance of the value of personality; revelation is the assurance of personality survival.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue May 28, 2019 10:54 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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