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I am not the one who called you, described you, or compared you to "mentally ill". Or stupid. Sorry but that was not me. You'll find both comparisons and references in kat's posts, not mine. She said I should not mistreat someone who is mentally ill and/or stupid in defending you. I know...a rather odd form of being your champion or "public defender" as you call kat. Personally, if I were you I think I'd be offended.....but not my issue.

I did make an observation - "crazy is as crazy does". A slang phrase which is not a diagnosis or accusation of anyone being mentally ill. Google it - it means don't act or say something crazy if you don't want to be thought of as crazy. Forrest Gump changed it to his own version: Stupid is as stupid does. Same general meaning.

However you have posted a great deal here about your own psychiatric history and perspectives over the years - still published in multiple topics all begun by you and in the archives here for anyone to review. But I have not called you mentally ill. I did characterize you as stubborn and too lazy to read and indifferent to the text and unresponsive.

You don't need to discern the origin of Creator Sons Stephen. The text clearly specifies this...in text I already posted.

Here it is again:

21:1.1 (234.6) When the fullness of absolute spiritual ideation in the Eternal Son encounters the fullness of absolute personality concept in the Universal Father, when such a creative union is finally and fully attained, when such absolute identity of spirit and such infinite oneness of personality concept occur, then, right then and there, without the loss of anything of personality or prerogative by either of the infinite Deities, there flashes into full-fledged being a new and original Creator Son, the only-begotten Son of the perfect ideal and the powerful idea whose union produces this new creator personality of power and perfection.

21:1.2 (235.1) Each Creator Son is the only-begotten and only-begettable offspring of the perfect union of the original concepts of the two infinite and eternal and perfect minds of the ever-existent Creators of the universe of universes. There never can be another such Son because each Creator Son is the unqualified, finished, and final expression and embodiment of all of every phase of every feature of every possibility of every divine reality that could, throughout all eternity, ever be found in, expressed by, or evolved from, those divine creative potentials which united to bring this Michael Son into existence. Each Creator Son is the absolute of the united deity concepts which constitute his divine origin.

The first two persons of Deity create the Creator Sons in Paradise. Not created by the Infinite Spirit as you claimed. Why did you say that? Why don't you post actual quotes in support of your declarations? A little research - just a little research - would eliminate 90% of the falsehoods you claim here. What's up with that?

By the way, have you yet read Paper 21 The Paradise Creator Sons? If so you would also have discovered this:

21:1.3 (235.2) The divine natures of these Creator Sons are, in principle, derived equally from the attributes of both Paradise parents. All partake of the fullness of the divine nature of the Universal Father and of the creative prerogatives of the Eternal Son, but as we observe the practical outworking of the Michael functions in the universes, we discern apparent differences. Some Creator Sons appear to be more like God the Father; others more like God the Son. For example: The trend of administration in the universe of Nebadon suggests that its Creator and ruling Son is one whose nature and character more resemble that of the Eternal Mother Son. It should be further stated that some universes are presided over by Paradise Michaels who appear equally to resemble God the Father and God the Son. And these observations are in no sense implied criticisms; they are simply a recording of fact.



To help you research terms and concepts BEFORE posting and to locate relevant quotes TO POST you may find these 3 search engine links helpful.

There's a search engine at TruthBook here:

https://truthbook.com/

And at the Urantia Association International here:

https://urantia-association.org/search/

And at the Foundation here:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/search

Each search engine is different from the others and each has certain advantages so I use all 3 depending on the format of my search. If interested, I'm happy to describe those unique features and how to utilize them effectively. Let me know.

Stephen - there simply is no excuse for your laziness and misrepresentations of the UB with so many tools to properly read and research all claims and beliefs and opinions and theories we may have and hold compared to the UB BEFORE POSTING. How can you not understand our purpose here is the study of the UB and compare that to other teachings and writings and our own beliefs and opinions and theories.

Our personal beliefs are irrelevant here (no matter kat's opinion otherwise) EXCEPT as we relate them TO THE UB!!!

You not only do NOT relate them by posting relevant and appropriate supporting text but you contradict the actual text!

What's up with that? So easy to avoid and prevent....if only you cared about accuracy and the actual contents and teachings of the UB. For no one who truly cared would ever be so negligent and so wrong so often as you are here. Pity. I hope to see you sincerely attempt to improve your accuracy in presenting the contents and teachings of the UB. We would all so greatly benefit by such an effort and improvement!

:roll:


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 am +0000, edited 10 times in total.

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Fine. But I realise what you have said about "trust" is indeed very important. I need to trust. Of course I need to trust someone.

But then, at least too, I need to trust my perception. When Jesus had garnered the adult responsibility of rearing a household, after Joseph departed, of course he felt he was unable to discuss the true issues that were burgeoning in his mind. What can we say, except that He acted out of compassion for the true interests of our world and all souls who would ever inhabit our sphere, whereas I am immature and quite selfish in my motives at time. Therefore, I adhere to the principle that true fathers are better than I am, more reticent and less promulgative. Sometimes, I am able to privately share my actual concerns with great men such as that.

I am not overlooking the need for Parental Environment: a place of stability which maintains the continuity for childhood maturation, and having a buffer that protects children from invaders both physical and mental. The Parental Environment contain the expansion of ideational and perceptual growth for every Child. I want children to be safe in the synagogue/mosque, but I want education to have a foundation of essential truth so that adults may apply logic properly. Safety concerns both the physical and educational environment: [159:3.4 "This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force."] The environment where Children learn is where you might find only positive suggestions towards the revelation of the human individual's true universe potentials.

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to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Fine. But I realise what you have said about "trust" is indeed very important. I need to trust. Of course I need to trust someone.

But then, at least too, I need to trust my perception. When Jesus had garnered the adult responsibility of rearing a household, after Joseph departed, of course he felt he was unable to discuss the true issues that were burgeoning in his mind. What can we say, except that He acted out of compassion for the true interests of our world and all souls who would ever inhabit our sphere, whereas I am immature and quite selfish in my motives at time. Therefore, I adhere to the principle that true fathers are better than I am, more reticent and less promulgative. Sometimes, I am able to privately share my actual concerns with great men such as that.

I am not overlooking the need for Parental Environment: a place of stability which maintains the continuity for childhood maturation, and having a buffer that protects children from invaders both physical and mental. The Parental Environment contain the expansion of ideational and perceptual growth for every Child. I want children to be safe in the synagogue/mosque, but I want education to have a foundation of essential truth so that adults may apply logic properly. Safety concerns both the physical and educational environment: [159:3.4 "This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force."] The environment where Children learn is where you might find only positive suggestions towards the revelation of the human individual's true universe potentials.


I disagree. It is your perception that seems to so often get you in the weeds and ditches of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the text. I would advise you to trust the authors of the Papers and trust the words in the UB to speak for themselves and I suggest you might mistrust your own memory and beliefs and fictional metaphysics and theories related to universe reality compared to that in the UB - which you claim to believe. You either do or do not believe the UB. Your stated beliefs and theories so frequently directly disagree with and contradict the UB...so which is it?

Remember....I don't care if you believe the Papers or not....but it is your claim that you do and you insist it is so....so why then do you constantly misquote, misrepresent, and contradict that which you claim to believe? This is not a sign of understanding...or sanity. Crazy is as crazy does....don't say crazy things if you don't want to be thought of as crazy. Get it? If you believe and appreciate the Papers, then quit misrepresenting them with falsifications that only contradict those Papers. Some people might think that's a little crazy!! (The behavior that is....crazy is as crazy does.)

I appreciate the dialogue and opportunity to better understand one another!! Thank you.

Bradly 8)


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In comparing the 3 forms of revelation presented in the UB, I think we can discover the purpose and value of each form but also begin to appreciate the convergence and conjunction of all 3 in the objective of personal religious experience and reality perspective. The following is my opinion and subject to revision based on discussion and research in the text. I believe all help us achieve a more accurate and more relevant sense of identity! Who am I?

We begin with "self revelation", a term that I think describes the inherent properties of sentient mind to be self aware and also be able to discern environment, cause and effect, have insight and imagination - the mind of self as it functions for all beings endowed with mind above the animal and mechanical levels of mind. The ability of self to discover and perceive and learn and understand which, in humans/mortals, the function of the adjutants circuit. Certain impulses and responses lead mortals to an evolutionary religious experience, a faith experience of awareness of our dual nature that leads to those moral choices which delivers the birth of soul. This is a species experience inherent to the function and fact of personality + adjutant connected mind + free will.

Next is "personal revelation", a description of the transfer of images, yearning, feelings, insights, pictures, visions, words, and other devices of communication that originate not in-mind but are received by mind as delivered by Spirit and is very personal, meaning intentional and to the one person, a personalized ministry with the purpose of spiritual awakening, growth, transformation, and the development of relationship between God and self - me. This spirit ministry engages (today and on Urantia) all 3 of the Spirit Ministers in all their combinations and powers to personally engage each personality and mind in relationship.

194:2.12 (2062.1) In a way, mankind is subject to the double influence of the sevenfold appeal of the universe spirit influences. The early evolutionary races of mortals are subject to the progressive contact of the seven adjutant mind-spirits of the local universe Mother Spirit. As man progresses upward in the scale of intelligence and spiritual perception, there eventually come to hover over him and dwell within him the seven higher spirit influences. And these seven spirits of the advancing worlds are:

194:2.13 (2062.2) 1. The bestowed spirit of the Universal Father—the Thought Adjusters.
194:2.14 (2062.3) 2. The spirit presence of the Eternal Son—the spirit gravity of the universe of universes and the certain channel of all spirit communion.
194:2.15 (2062.4) 3. The spirit presence of the Infinite Spirit—the universal spirit-mind of all creation, the spiritual source of the intellectual kinship of all progressive intelligences.
194:2.16 (2062.5) 4. The spirit of the Universal Father and the Creator Son—the Spirit of Truth, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Son.
194:2.17 (2062.6) 5. The spirit of the Infinite Spirit and the Universe Mother Spirit—the Holy Spirit, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Spirit.
194:2.18 (2062.7) 6. The mind-spirit of the Universe Mother Spirit—the seven adjutant mind-spirits of the local universe.
194:2.19 (2062.8) 7. The spirit of the Father, Sons, and Spirits—the new-name spirit of the ascending mortals of the realms after the fusion of the mortal spirit-born soul with the Paradise Thought Adjuster and after the subsequent attainment of the divinity and glorification of the status of the Paradise Corps of the Finality.

194:2.20 (2062.9) And so did the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth bring to the world and its peoples the last of the spirit endowment designed to aid in the ascending search for God.

The first two forms of revelation do not and cannot deliver objectivity or universe perspective without the third form of revelation: epochal/planetary/universal revelation of fact and truth. The epochal form of revelation is very important to deliver and enhance the lens of reality perspective to the individual mind engaged in the personal revelation relationships and the inherent function of mind to discover, perceive, discern, learn, and acquire knowledge and subjective perspective. Both self revelation and personal revelation deliver a subjective and very personal experience and resulting perspective of reality. But epochal revelation delivers the power of objectivity and focus and scale and triangulation and relative positioning of the subjective to the objective - or the subject within the totality and its relationship of the one or the each to the all and all others - context. Only epochal revelation even has such potential to so expose, expand, and express universe reality and help us position our place within that reality.

The Papers list the purposes and value of epochal revelation as:

101:4.6 (1109.7) 1. The reduction of confusion by the authoritative elimination of error.
101:4.7 (1109.8) 2. The co-ordination of known or about-to-be-known facts and observations.
101:4.8 (1110.1) 3. The restoration of important bits of lost knowledge concerning epochal transactions in the distant past.
101:4.9 (1110.2) 4. The supplying of information which will fill in vital missing gaps in otherwise earned knowledge.
101:4.10 (1110.3) 5. Presenting cosmic data in such a manner as to illuminate the spiritual teachings contained in the accompanying revelation.

All forms of revelation help each of us to discover and define our personal identity relative to others and all others and in time and in space and in relation to eternity and infinity and origin and destiny. And remember that mind requires knowledge and demands such personal context or relationship to totality. This is an inherent function of mind - curiosity and the need to know and to understand and to explain. Revelation is the mechanism of satisfying this inherent function of mind. It includes both truth and fact or knowledge and understanding or meaning and value.

Because the mind is quite willing and capable of inventing concepts and context by observation and imagination and deduction and speculation whenever there is a shortage of actual knowledge and fact, the facts of reality are most reliable and accurate when delivered by experience, wisdom, and epochal revelation. Otherwise, the mind is capable of error and mischief and subjective prejudice in addition to our ignorance, inexperience, immaturity, and mortal weaknesses.

This is why, IMO, it is so important to learn and study this epochal revelation called the Urantia Papers as a gift of precise fact and knowledge about universe reality for the very purpose of reducing confusion and eliminating error. It is not our personal beliefs, theories, and metaphysics that will deliver us from ignorance and prejudice - indeed, those are the very definition of ignorance and prejudice!!!! Accuracy in our recall and study is important. Otherwise who is learning anything but more error for even greater confusion?? What's the point in that????

UB study groups, and this is one of those, are formed and gathered for the purpose of learning the universe reality perspective delivered WITHIN the contents of the Papers. Everything else is secondary to that. Lack of accuracy tears down and destroys our very reason to be here. This is textbook on the facts of universe reality and the cosmic relationships of personality and identity to one another and to the all and of our origins and destiny. It should not be taken lightly. We are told..."The chief inhibitors of growth are prejudice and ignorance."

If you are not here to learn....you have nothing to offer here. Or so I think.

Bradly 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
We begin with "self revelation", a term that I think describes the inherent properties of sentient mind to be self aware and also be able to discern environment, cause and effect, have insight and imagination - the mind of self as it functions for all beings endowed with mind above the animal and mechanical levels of mind.


If what you say is true, how does one differentiate between self-revelation and self-consciousness?

(31.6) 1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation.

fanofVan wrote:
Next is "personal revelation", a description of the transfer of images, yearning, feelings, insights, pictures, visions, words, and other devices of communication that originate not in-mind but are received by mind as delivered by Spirit and is very personal, meaning intentional and to the one person, a personalized ministry with the purpose of spiritual awakening, growth, transformation, and the development of relationship between God and self - me.


This sounds similar to Stephen's "download". Is this "transfer" or "delivery" an automatic event that just happens to a person?

fanofVan wrote:
The first two forms of revelation do not and cannot deliver objectivity or universe perspective without the third form of revelation: epochal/planetary/universal revelation of fact and truth.


Are you saying that the Thought Adjuster is incapable of providing objective validity of revelation to the mind without the help of planetary visitations of divine persons? It seems to me that it is quite the opposite, given the fact that in the foreword it is written that this epochal revelation is entirely dependent upon the Thought Adjuster and Spirit of Truth for translation of the revelation to our primitive minds. Also, are you saying that the three cosmic intuitions play no role in providing objective validity to reality? Reference:

(17.2) 0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

fanofVan wrote:
Both self revelation and personal revelation deliver a subjective and very personal experience and resulting perspective of reality.


Are you saying personal revelation which has been, as you say, delivered or transferred from a Divine source to the mind is not an objective reality? Isn't the most objective reality in the universe the Thought Adjuster? Granted, the experience of personal revelation is subjective, but the reality is objective. And, if epochal revelation requires translation by the Adjuster, who is the most objective reality in contact with mortal beings, wouldn't that also be a personal subjective experience?

The truth of an epochal revelation is just as important as the facts, and the truth is an experience of the soul in a co-creative relationship with the Thought Adjuster, Spirit of Truth and Holy Spirit. If the facts of the Fourth Epochal Revelation were the most important feature of Jesus' incarnation, then all we would have is a history lesson. Revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon. Reference:

(1109.6) 101:4.5 Truth may be but relatively inspired, even though revelation is invariably a spiritual phenomenon.

fanofVan wrote:
Lack of accuracy tears down and destroys our very reason to be here. This is textbook on the facts of universe reality and the cosmic relationships of personality and identity to one another and to the all and of our origins and destiny.


And who is the arbiter of this accuracy? If it isn't the Thought Adjuster, shouldn't it be a group decision? I don't think there is a single person capable of making that judgment. But more importantly, how often do people quibble over the accuracy of interpretation of facts rather than the facts themselves? Orthodoxy can be dangerous. Facts may be fixed, but relations are not. Facts are individually interpreted and given meaning according to each person's philosophical abilities and capacity to relate to the soul. Anyone can spit back facts, but that is a one-dimensional reality. Once facts become incorporated by a trifold approach to reality, they become unified by personality and each personality is uniquely different in its pattern of unifying.


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Many interesting points to consider. There is obvious differentiation and distinction between the forms of revelation described in the UB. I am hopeful you and others might actually wish to discuss what those differences are and their importance. Nit picking me may help in some regards but not so much as remaining focused on the actual topic of why there are multiple forms of revelation presented. What do you think the differences are and why are there different forms of revelation?

I am hoping you can help describe self revelation and its distinctions too. It seems to me that self consciousness is a state of mind while self revelation is an activity of mind that requires self consciousness. My impression is that self revelation is something the mind does simply by the inherent functions of mind and self (personality). It is observation + perception + reason + speculation which results in understanding and the formation of perspective as modified by experience and education. It is what the mind of self is able to reveal to self without personal revelation or epochal revelation.

As far as personal revelation, it is not merely a down-load of data because it is personalized based on each person's unique situation, circumstance, prior progress, capacity, etc. It is responsive to personal need I think and certainly not "automatic" or automated or mechanical or even the same content or order of content or emphasis of content from one mind/soul compared to any or all others.. The TA does not reveal fact, but truth...and truth is always subjective. So no, I do not think the Spirit ministers/ministries impart facts or objectivity by personal revelation - it is a purely subjective (personal) experience.

Has your TA told you the name of this world or the System or Universe or the names or existence of all the many celestials or the functions of the Deity, origins and destiny, how many Creator Sons (what's that?) or how many inhabited worlds there are, what architectural spheres are, Power Directors, Life Carriers, Adjutants, etc.?? No. What did personal revelation teach you of personality or identity (or personal revelation for that matter?)

Neither our religious experience or spiritual progress, as mortals, is dependent upon or requires such facts and objectivity to be real and progressive. Knowledge is secondary to faith and truth....for a season anyway. But the result of faith and truth when combined with experience and education of factual reality is a growing objective awareness and perspective of universe reality.

We are told that progress results in greater and greater objectivity and mind seeks out and requires knowledge and facts and reality perspective. And so the factual knowledge imparted by epochal revelation and factual science (true metaphysics) is of great value in gaining this desirable and effective objectivity I think. I do think the TA can validate truth as can the Spirit of Truth...and confirmation and assurance are key elements of Spirit ministry. Please note that in 0:12.13 that the TA and Spirit of Truth "conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings". This is not a delivery system of objective knowledge and facts. The quote ends by emphasizing that this ministry is about "truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness."
Truth and God consciousness!! Not cosmology and facts and objective knowledge of universe realities.

And this is the very point I am hoping to raise....each form of revelation is important and each is different from the other even though there is surely points of convergence, conjunction, intersection, and overlap. But it is ridiculous to suggest that there is NO difference function and purpose in these different forms of revelation. We may question what those differences are but not the fact of the existence of such differences....otherwise, please explain why there are more than one form.

kat posts above: "Are you saying personal revelation which has been, as you say, delivered or transferred from a Divine source to the mind is not an objective reality? Isn't the most objective reality in the universe the Thought Adjuster? Granted, the experience of personal revelation is subjective, but the reality is objective. And, if epochal revelation requires translation by the Adjuster, who is the most objective reality in contact with mortal beings, wouldn't that also be a personal subjective experience?

The truth of an epochal revelation is just as important as the facts, and the truth is an experience of the soul in a co-creative relationship with the Thought Adjuster, Spirit of Truth and Holy Spirit. If the facts of the Fourth Epochal Revelation were the most important feature of Jesus' incarnation, then all we would have is a history lesson. Revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon."



Certainly personal revelation is "an objective reality" but that which is revealed is not perceived by the mortal mind objectively for truth cannot be perceived objectively by mortal mind, can it? Is not truth always subjective to experiential and perfecting mind? To whom is truth an objective reality kat? You? And what has the reality of the Adjuster to do with any of this? Pure red herring!! Not the topic nor relevant to the topic. The issue is the objective or subjective nature of personal revelation - NOT its source. The truth of epochal revelation is important and it is THAT alone which requires the assistance of the TA. Your snippet of a quote above left out the declaration and fact that the cosmology of epochal revelation is never inspired - it is fact and knowledge and can be discerned and believed and added to knowledge and perspective without the aid of the TA but simply by reason and the scientific method of logic.

You say truth is as important as fact and then infer that fact is not important at all. Which is it? Is fact important? Is knowledge of universe reality meaningful and deliver value to mortals? The fact that epochal revelation includes truth does not exclude the truth that epochal revelation also includes fact kat! You know this to be so. Why do you choose to obfuscate this fact and reality and function of epochal revelation? Is the story of Jesus fact?

The Urantia Papers are filled with thousands upon thousands of facts from Page 1, paragraph 1, sentence 1 to last page and sentence!! The history of Nebadon and Urantia are fact as is the listing of Deity and the creatures of the universe of universes. Do you deny these facts????? And if not by the Papers and all other forms and prior epochal revelations, just how do you think such facts become known to the mortals who live on the evolutionary spheres of time???

The arbiter of accuracy are the Sons, celestials, and corporeal staff who present epochal revelation to every world. Epochal revelation is accurate and present facts accurately per the limitations noted of translation and comprehension by mortal mind. What group are you talking about? No mortals can arbitrate the facts of universe reality. Certainly not me! I am but another student seeking knowledge, understanding, perspective, and a philosophy of living.

You don't think the facts presented in the UB are understandable? You don't think the information and knowledge taught to mortals in Dalamatia and the Garden and to Mel's missionaries or the Apostles about universe realities were factual? Or not understandable? So you think the authors of the UB have then failed in their mission t our world as described in the Foreward, eh? Weird....all the way around...weird. For this too is a claim of the channeler crowd....that the UB requires keys and great knowledge to decipher and only the few might interpret the meanings of the UB to others.

Mortal religious experience requires both truth and fact and an integrating philosophy. The purposes of epochal revelation have already been posted straight from the UB...so what is your argument again about those purposes and differences? Your many objections to my speculations about the differences in format, function, and purpose of the different forms of revelation do not address your own opinions about them. I look forward to those. Thanks.

101:2.1 (1105.5) The fact of religion consists wholly in the religious experience of rational and average human beings. And this is the only sense in which religion can ever be regarded as scientific or even psychological. The proof that revelation is revelation is this same fact of human experience: the fact that revelation does synthesize the apparently divergent sciences of nature and the theology of religion into a consistent and logical universe philosophy, a co-ordinated and unbroken explanation of both science and religion, thus creating a harmony of mind and satisfaction of spirit which answers in human experience those questionings of the mortal mind which craves to know how the Infinite works out his will and plans in matter, with minds, and on spirit.

101:2.2 (1106.1) Reason is the method of science; faith is the method of religion; logic is the attempted technique of philosophy. Revelation compensates for the absence of the morontia viewpoint by providing a technique for achieving unity in the comprehension of the reality and relationships of matter and spirit by the mediation of mind. And true revelation never renders science unnatural, religion unreasonable, or philosophy illogical.

101:2.8 (1106.7) Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, logic the proof of philosophy, but revelation is validated only by human experience. Science yields knowledge; religion yields happiness; philosophy yields unity; revelation confirms the experiential harmony of this triune approach to universal reality.

The facts presented by the Papers and by epochal revelation are critical to the personal religious experience and the philosophy of living derived by and from proper perspective and context of the one related to the whole and the all by liberating us from isolation and the limits of reality awareness inherent in the mortal life and experience without awareness of objective universe realities as presented by epochal revelation.

(1039.5) 94:11.6 But a great limitation in the original gospel of Siddhartha, as it was interpreted by his followers, was that it attempted the complete liberation of the human self from all the limitations of the mortal nature by the technique of isolating the self from objective reality. True cosmic self-realization results from identification with cosmic reality and with the finite cosmos of energy, mind, and spirit, bounded by space and conditioned by time.


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fanofVan wrote:
Nit picking me may help in some regards but not so much as remaining focused on the actual topic of why there are multiple forms of revelation presented.


There are only two types of revelation, personal and epochal. Self-revelation and personal revelation are equivalent forms, as is autorevelation. I think you may have confused the term "self-revelation" with the term "self-consciousness". Revelation is always spiritual, therefore personal revelation, self-revelation and autorevelation are also spiritual. Self-consciousness, on the other hand, is not always spiritual. Self-consciousness covers the entire gamut of selfhood, including matter, mind and soul in addition to spirit because it is a feature of personality, the unifier of all those things.


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fanofVan wrote:
I am hoping you can help describe self revelation and its distinctions. It seems to me that self consciousness is a state of mind while self revelation is an activity of mind that requires self consciousness.


Isn't self-consciousness also an activity? Self-consciousness is an exclusive attribute of personality. When a pattern of personality is endowed upon a living energy system, which would by definition also be minded, it provides the mind with the ability to be aware of itself as an entity while at the same time able to distinguish the reality of other personalities apart from itself. Self-consciousness is the essential foundation of the phenomenon of "relationship". Self-consciousness is also the mechanism by which humans are conscious of their own thinking. Personality can actually be aware of mind ministry as something separate from itself. This is why personality is a critical component to the three cosmic intuitions which provide objectivity to experience with reality.

(194.6) 16:8.6 Self-consciousness consists in intellectual awareness of personality actuality; it includes the ability to recognize the reality of other personalities. It indicates capacity for individualized experience in and with cosmic realities, equivalating to the attainment of identity status in the personality relationships of the universe. Self-consciousness connotes recognition of the actuality of mind ministration and the realization of relative independence of creative and determinative free will.


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fanofVan wrote:
My impression is that self revelation is something the mind does simply by the inherent functions of mind and self (personality). It is observation + perception + reason + speculation which results in understanding and the formation of perspective as modified by experience and education. It is what the mind of self is able to reveal to self without personal revelation or epochal revelation.


What I think you're describing is adjutant mind ministry, and nowhere have I read that adjutant mind ministry is responsible for revelation, nor is adjutant mind ministry spiritual. In man, adjutant mind ministry is superanimal but subspiritual and we know that revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon. Even the soul is considered subspiritual without the presence of Spirit.

Yet we know that revelation is an experience of the soul, as is truth. Self-revelation, personal revelation and autorevelation are the same thing and they only happen in the soul where there is a source of revelation, the Thought Adjuster. As far as I can tell, the word "revelation" is only used in connection with the Thought Adjuster. Even the self-revelation that occurs through the three cosmic intuitions require a Thought Adjuster. And it is also written that epochal revelation requires a Thought Adjuster for interpretation.

(1122.8 ) 102:3.12 The pursuit of knowledge constitutes science; the search for wisdom is philosophy; the love for God is religion; the hunger for truth is a revelation. But it is the indwelling Thought Adjuster that attaches the feeling of reality to man’s spiritual insight into the cosmos.

(1641:3)  146:3.1 Religion is a revelation to man’s soul dealing with spiritual realities which the mind alone could never discover or fully fathom. Intellectual strivings may reveal the facts of life, but the gospel of the kingdom unfolds the truths of being.

(195.7) 16:9.1 The cosmic-mind-endowed, Adjuster-indwelt, personal creature possesses innate recognition-realization of energy reality, mind reality, and spirit reality. The will creature is thus equipped to discern the fact, the law, and the love of God. Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition.

(17.2) 0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.


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fanofVan wrote:
The TA does not reveal fact, but truth...and truth is always subjective.


Truth is actually an objective reality, as are beauty and goodness. Those realities are objective but human experience with them is subjective. I also believe the Thought Adjuster is capable and willing to reveal not only facts, but new meanings of facts since values are concealed within facts.

(2078.7) 195:7.4  Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.

(1141.7) 103:9.9 The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.

(1002:3) 91:8.12 God answers man's prayer by giving him an increased revelation of truth, an enhanced appreciation of beauty, and an augmented concept of goodness. Prayer is a subjective gesture, but it contacts with mighty objective realities on the spiritual levels of human experience; it is a meaningful reach by the human for superhuman values. It is the most potent spiritual-growth stimulus.

(1105:1) 101:1.4 Religion lives and prospers, then, not by sight and feeling, but rather by faith and insight. It consists not in the discovery of new facts or in the finding of a unique experience, but rather in the discovery of new and spiritual meanings in facts already well known to mankind. The highest religious experience is not dependent on prior acts of belief, tradition, and authority; neither is religion the offspring of sublime feelings and purely mystical emotions. It is, rather, a profoundly deep and actual experience of spiritual communion with the spirit influences resident within the human mind, and as far as such an experience is definable in terms of psychology, it is simply the experience of experiencing the reality of believing in God as the reality of such a purely personal experience.

(1181.3) 107:4.7   Can you really realize the true significance of the Adjuster’s indwelling? Do you really fathom what it means to have an absolute fragment of the absolute and infinite Deity, the Universal Father, indwelling and fusing with your finite mortal natures? When mortal man fuses with an actual fragment of the existential Cause of the total cosmos, no limit can ever be placed upon the destiny of such an unprecedented and unimaginable partnership. In eternity, man will be discovering not only the infinity of the objective Deity but also the unending potentiality of the subjective fragment of this same God. Always will the Adjuster be revealing to the mortal personality the wonder of God, and never can this supernal revelation come to an end, for the Adjuster is of God and as God to mortal man.


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fanofVan wrote:
Has your TA told you the name of this world or the System or Universe or the names or existence of all the many celestials or the functions of the Deity, origins and destiny, etc.??


To be frank I never asked. It's not something I ever really wanted to know. But the apostle John's Thought Adjuster did share some of those facts with him. Who in the first century would have known about the seven adjutants, or the four control creatures of Salvington? The Thought Adjuster obviously presented John with a vision of the universe headquarters and the system capital. And what about Paul and the third heaven? These are facts with concealed values of truth revealed by the Thought Adjuster to individual humans as personal revelation.

(378.6) 34:4.12 But it was of Salvington that John wrote: “And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices” — the universe broadcasts to the local systems. He also envisaged the directional control creatures of the local universe, the living compasses of the headquarters world. This directional control in Nebadon is maintained by the four control creatures of Salvington, who operate over the universe currents and are ably assisted by the first functioning mind-spirit, the adjutant of intuition, the spirit of “quick understanding.” But the description of these four creatures — called beasts — has been sadly marred; they are of unparalleled beauty and exquisite form.

(553.4) 48:6.23 You should consider the statement about “heaven” and the “heaven of heavens.” The heaven conceived by most of your prophets was the first of the mansion worlds of the local system. When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds. Some of your wise men saw the vision of the greater heaven, “the heaven of heavens,” of which the sevenfold mansion world experience was but the first; the second being Jerusem; the third, Edentia and its satellites; the fourth, Salvington and the surrounding educational spheres; the fifth, Uversa; the sixth, Havona; and the seventh, Paradise.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Nit picking me may help in some regards but not so much as remaining focused on the actual topic of why there are multiple forms of revelation presented.


There are only two types of revelation, personal and epochal. Self-revelation and personal revelation are equivalent forms, as is autorevelation. I think you may have confused the term "self-revelation" with the term "self-consciousness". Revelation is always spiritual, therefore personal revelation, self-revelation and autorevelation are also spiritual. Self-consciousness, on the other hand, is not always spiritual. Self-consciousness covers the entire gamut of selfhood, including matter, mind and soul in addition to spirit because it is a feature of personality, the unifier of all those things.


katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
My impression is that self revelation is something the mind does simply by the inherent functions of mind and self (personality). It is observation + perception + reason + speculation which results in understanding and the formation of perspective as modified by experience and education. It is what the mind of self is able to reveal to self without personal revelation or epochal revelation.


What I think you're describing is adjutant mind ministry, and nowhere have I read that adjutant mind ministry is responsible for revelation, nor is adjutant mind ministry spiritual. In man, adjutant mind ministry is superanimal but subspiritual and we know that revelation is always a spiritual phenomenon. Even the soul is considered subspiritual without the presence of Spirit.

Yet we know that revelation is an experience of the soul, as is truth. Self-revelation, personal revelation and autorevelation are the same thing and they only happen in the soul where there is a source of revelation, the Thought Adjuster. As far as I can tell, the word "revelation" is only used in connection with the Thought Adjuster. Even the self-revelation that occurs through the three cosmic intuitions require a Thought Adjuster. And it is also written that epochal revelation requires a Thought Adjuster for interpretation.

(1122.8 ) 102:3.12 The pursuit of knowledge constitutes science; the search for wisdom is philosophy; the love for God is religion; the hunger for truth is a revelation. But it is the indwelling Thought Adjuster that attaches the feeling of reality to man’s spiritual insight into the cosmos.

(1641:3) 146:3.1 Religion is a revelation to man’s soul dealing with spiritual realities which the mind alone could never discover or fully fathom. Intellectual strivings may reveal the facts of life, but the gospel of the kingdom unfolds the truths of being.

(195.7) 16:9.1 The cosmic-mind-endowed, Adjuster-indwelt, personal creature possesses innate recognition-realization of energy reality, mind reality, and spirit reality. The will creature is thus equipped to discern the fact, the law, and the love of God. Aside from these three inalienables of human consciousness, all human experience is really subjective except that intuitive realization of validity attaches to the unification of these three universe reality responses of cosmic recognition.

(17.2) 0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.


Whatever self-revelation may be, it is not adjutant ministry or personal/auto revelation or self consciousness. I have always agreed that there are only two forms of revelation - personal and epochal...until recently. And I am not yet convinced of the validity or definition of self-revelation. But there are quotes about it.

I have some confusions and doubts regarding whether mortals or celestials experience self-revelation, however it does make sense that some of reality is self revealing or that self does not require any other agent, other than self, to discover some realities - they are self-evident or self learned or able to be known by observation and perception and reason and speculation; or personal/self experience that does not require personal revelation or epochal revelation. Perhaps this is not self-revelation and is simply the normal functions of mind, including adjutant mind. But there is this to consider:

(31.6) 1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God’s bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father’s personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.

Me here: Notice that self consciousness is distinct and different from self-revelation, as is identity. Perhaps the cosmic mind and the reality response is the source of self-revelation as normal mindedness is able to discern much without TA revelations (personal) or epochal forms? Perhaps self-revelation is "reality sensitivity"? Please note 16:6.7 below: knowing right from wrong - prior to the personal revelation potential by the TA and before soul is born is the ability for right and wrong to be "self" revealed.

6. The Cosmic Mind

(191.4) 16:6.1 The Master Spirits are the sevenfold source of the cosmic mind, the intellectual potential of the grand universe. This cosmic mind is a subabsolute manifestation of the mind of the Third Source and Center and, in certain ways, is functionally related to the mind of the evolving Supreme Being.

(191.5) 16:6.2 On a world like Urantia we do not encounter the direct influence of the Seven Master Spirits in the affairs of the human races. You live under the immediate influence of the Creative Spirit of Nebadon. Nevertheless these same Master Spirits dominate the basic reactions of all creature mind because they are the actual sources of the intellectual and spiritual potentials which have been specialized in the local universes for function in the lives of those individuals who inhabit the evolutionary worlds of time and space.

(191.6) 16:6.3 The fact of the cosmic mind explains the kinship of various types of human and superhuman minds. Not only are kindred spirits attracted to each other, but kindred minds are also very fraternal and inclined towards co-operation the one with the other. Human minds are sometimes observed to be running in channels of astonishing similarity and inexplicable agreement.

(191.7) 16:6.4 There exists in all personality associations of the cosmic mind a quality which might be denominated the “reality response.” It is this universal cosmic endowment of will creatures which saves them from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion. This reality sensitivity of the cosmic mind responds to certain phases of reality just as energy-material responds to gravity. It would be still more correct to say that these supermaterial realities so respond to the mind of the cosmos.

(192.1) 16:6.5 The cosmic mind unfailingly responds (recognizes response) on three levels of universe reality. These responses are self-evident to clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds. These levels of reality are:

(192.2) 16:6.6 1. Causation — the reality domain of the physical senses, the scientific realms of logical uniformity, the differentiation of the factual and the nonfactual, reflective conclusions based on cosmic response. This is the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.

(192.3) 16:6.7 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the [color=#FF0000]recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.[/color]

(192.4) 16:6.8 3. Worship — the spiritual domain of the reality of religious experience, the personal realization of divine fellowship, the recognition of spirit values, the assurance of eternal survival, the ascent from the status of servants of God to the joy and liberty of the sons of God. This is the highest insight of the cosmic mind, the reverential and worshipful form of the cosmic discrimination.

(192.5) 16:6.9 These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking. But it is sad to record that so few persons on Urantia take delight in cultivating these qualities of courageous and independent cosmic thinking.

(192.6) 16:6.10 In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

(192.7) 16:6.11 It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind; of civilization to express them; of life experience to realize them; of religion to ennoble them; and of personality to unify them.

Key word search for self-revelation:

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1

So whatever it might be, and whether mortals participate, it is certain that self-revelation is not self consciousness or personal revelation. Try again?

:wink:


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fanofVan wrote:
Neither our religious experience or spiritual progress, as mortals, is dependent upon or requires facts and objectivity to be real and progressive.


Since you insist on accuracy, allow me to point out that all reality is objective which is why there are three cosmic intuitions for each of the three levels of objective reality. Experience with all three levels of reality is essential for progress in that mind discerns both facts and truth then utilizes philosophy to harmonize them in order to progress. Although knowledge of facts is not necessary for survival, it is essential for progress. References:

(192.6) 16:6.10 And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man's experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

(1435.2) 130:4.10 The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience.

(1120.2) 102:2.5 But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mind is firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

(739.8 ) 65:8.4 Although survival may not depend on the possession of knowledge and wisdom, progression most certainly does.


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fanofVan wrote:
And so the factual knowledge imparted by epochal revelation and factual science (true metaphysics) is of great value in gaining this desirable and effective objectivity I think.


Are you saying that factual science and true metaphysics are the same thing? I'm having difficulty understanding your sentence.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Has your TA told you the name of this world or the System or Universe or the names or existence of all the many celestials or the functions of the Deity, origins and destiny, etc.??


To be frank I never asked. It's not something I ever really wanted to know. But the apostle John's Thought Adjuster did share some of those facts with him. Who in the first century would have known about the seven adjutants, or the four control creatures of Salvington? The Thought Adjuster obviously presented John with a vision of the universe headquarters and the system capital. And what about Paul and the third heaven? These are facts with concealed values of truth revealed by the Thought Adjuster to individual humans as personal revelation.

(378.6) 34:4.12 But it was of Salvington that John wrote: “And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices” — the universe broadcasts to the local systems. He also envisaged the directional control creatures of the local universe, the living compasses of the headquarters world. This directional control in Nebadon is maintained by the four control creatures of Salvington, who operate over the universe currents and are ably assisted by the first functioning mind-spirit, the adjutant of intuition, the spirit of “quick understanding.” But the description of these four creatures — called beasts — has been sadly marred; they are of unparalleled beauty and exquisite form.

(553.4) 48:6.23 You should consider the statement about “heaven” and the “heaven of heavens.” The heaven conceived by most of your prophets was the first of the mansion worlds of the local system. When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds. Some of your wise men saw the vision of the greater heaven, “the heaven of heavens,” of which the sevenfold mansion world experience was but the first; the second being Jerusem; the third, Edentia and its satellites; the fourth, Salvington and the surrounding educational spheres; the fifth, Uversa; the sixth, Havona; and the seventh, Paradise.


John's vision did not result in knowledge or facts grasped or any true perception of universe reality. Obviously. His misinterpretations based on zero context and vocabulary. If this were factual/epochal revelation, John would have been able to describe and give name to what was in this vision. He could not. He wrote of lightnings and thunderings.

So you find no value in the facts presented in the UB? And you claim, apparently, that personal revelation is sufficient and there is no need then for epochal revelation? You did say epochal revelation exists. Why so? The visions described above are forms of personal revelation - not epochal revelations from the celestial or spirit beings to all other mortals. Indeed, and again, what you are claiming sounds so much like the claims of channelers who preach second hand revelation - from the TA to one mortal to then be delivered to some or all other mortals. The priestly go between and oracle; voices for God's through mortal representation.

Do you think John was given an epochal revelation for all others?

(1109.4) 101:4.3 Truth is always a revelation: autorevelation when it emerges as a result of the work of the indwelling Adjuster; epochal revelation when it is presented by the function of some other celestial agency, group, or personality.


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