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katroofjebus wrote:

110:6.16 " conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship." The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders' experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

This group, nor any other group, is the arbiter of the Father's will. That is a matter entirely between you and the Father. No one else is privy to such a thing. If you desire to do social service as an outpouring of your soul, allow the Spirit of Truth to guide you in all relations.



However the experiencial relationsihp to the Supreme being, in the Urantia Papers, is likened unto universe citizenship. You say that there is no group but perhaps you mean no existing group of humans in this capacity that you have found? What about the group of all Creators and Created Beings Who Have Found Universe Citizenship? The group that truly abides in the Father's Will, as you have described? Are you saying that there is really no such group, or just that our current values and mores have not produced a nation like this, a free ability to consider all ideas and contribute one's own unique contribution to society. I certainly have not found that either, but I would like to be able to say, yes my dear brother sister or mother, that sounds like a spiritual decision that I can ratify in the supreme sense: provide that assurance if it is true, if I believe that a person truly wants what they says that they wants. But I would not like to do so unless it is also unanimously approved by other men, recognised or encouraged in one sense or another. It is a simple matter of support versus fear and cowardice. I do not really know what is to do the will of God, and it hopefully mean different for each person, even as each person's own concept of God is different. However, whatever it is from your own family members, that you do see as good, wouldn't you want to affirm and encourage, to help, (the work of) that one? In this sense, each family is seen in the way that they give advice, are supportive & encouraging to one another, and in this wise begin to engage their assets and functions in the universe, and teach their neighbours in the same manner.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
However the experiencial relationsihp to the Supreme being, in the Urantia Papers, is likened unto universe citizenship. You say that there is no group but perhaps you mean no existing group of humans in this capacity that you have found? What about the group of all Creators and Created Beings Who Have Found Universe Citizenship? The group that truly abides in the Father's Will, as you have described? Are you saying that there is really no such group, or just that our current values and mores have not produced a nation like this, a free ability to consider all ideas and contribute one's own unique contribution to society.


Yes, that's what I meant, no group of flesh and blood humans on this planet. I suppose whenever this planet gets to one of the advanced stages of light and life there might be groups which possess higher wisdom. In the sixth stage of planetary light and life a new mind circuit function develops which makes cosmic wisdom constitutive. Until then, the awareness of cosmic citizenship will have to suffice, and all that means is being conscious of the supermaterial level of reality, soul-consciousness and God-consciousness.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
I certainly have not found that either, but I would like to be able to say, yes my dear brother sister or mother, that sounds like a spiritual decision that I can ratify in the supreme sense: provide that assurance if it is true, if I believe that a person truly wants what they says that they wants. But I would not like to do so unless it is also unanimously approved by other men, recognised or encouraged in one sense or another.


Neither you nor any human group have the right to ratify truth. That would be a mistake. Every person must discover and recognize truth for themselves; it is a highly personal and entirely relative matter. All you can do is encourage a person to seek wisdom and spiritual insight into truth, beauty and goodness. In the case of my own children who come for advice, I always ask if they had prayed or reflected deeply on the matter. Then I ask, what does your heart say? Then, what does your mind say? If the answers are different, I ask which answer is the most loving. And then I tell them, you have to decide for yourself, pick the best option and the best option, in my opinion, is usually the least selfish. No decision is worth a tittle unless it is made sincerely and wholeheartedly by the individual person who really desires to do the Father's will. And you, as a father or family member, must give the other person the opportunity to listen to their own inner guiding voice, or at least attempt to find it for themselves. And I agree, it does take courage.

When it comes to group decisions, I remember what Jesus said, "where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.” He also said: "Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership." Sooner or later a leader pops up in a group of people, and when that happens, I have to assume it's God's doing, but that doesn't mean you follow the leader blindly.


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katroofjebus wrote:

Neither you nor any human group have the right to ratify truth. That would be a mistake. Every person must discover and recognize truth for themselves; it is a highly personal and entirely relative matter. All you can do is encourage a person to seek wisdom and spiritual insight into truth, beauty and goodness. In the case of my own children who come for advice, I always ask if they had prayed or reflected deeply on the matter. Then I ask, what does your heart say? Then, what does your mind say? If the answers are different, I ask which answer is the most loving. And then I tell them, you have to decide for yourself, pick the best option and the best option, in my opinion, is usually the least selfish. No decision is worth a tittle unless it is made sincerely and wholeheartedly by the individual person who really desires to do the Father's will. And you, as a father or family member, must give the other person the opportunity to listen to their own inner guiding voice, or at least attempt to find it for themselves. And I agree, it does take courage.

When it comes to group decisions, I remember what Jesus said, "where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.” He also said: "Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership." Sooner or later a leader pops up in a group of people, and when that happens, I have to assume it's God's doing, but that doesn't mean you follow the leader blindly.


Okay you say this, not any human group has the right to ratify truth. I agree that as a human individual, I do not have the right to ratify truth, but in another sense, "I can affirm Revelation," that which I have experienced and deemed to be true, in terms of ought, my plans, the things which I must do, thought conclusive in a private and personal manner, according to my ability and wherewith, the duty to action of which I may actually be obliged.

Then there is this consideration, of how each of the decisions that were made in council by the Apostles, were to be accepted by Jesus: and the way that Andrew negotiated with the followers of John the Baptist. How does each man, each household say, set aside demands and in the best attempt at tolerance, consider all the views of the member presented at council. This pertains to what we, or what one who identifies as part of society, take into consideration and then regulate the function of I do not know? God's will or "the ministry of the angels of nations", "the Rule of the Most High", when there are any specific plans that should be acknowledged in the group-function of sentient beings in the universe. This pertains to what a person actually holds accountable within himself as an individual, and that portion of duty from citizenship that applies to their rights to enact such plan, without trammeling on the existing laws of the land, the values of a home nation or homeworld.

I believe that if the 12 Apostles cannot be found to ratify such decisions, a person should do their best to speak about community issues at town council meetings, be present to hear the needs of others whereever the experiences of others would lend towards their own personal experience of Revelation. But a person should remember that the 12 Melchizedeks do look after the plans for progress for our world, for the human ascenders that should grace Urantia, and it should be considered that these members of our PLanetary Supervision, would assist law-abiders in their quest to acquire greater capital, to foster and develop young adults within their communities. And even though the joint-decisions of the Melchizedeks are recognised by Michael and usually apply to overarching planetary affairs, we know that JEsus, of himself, was able to affirm his testimony and "the ability to bear witness", even though Jesus was the one who ratified the Apostles' decision, to follow Him.

Whereever two or more are present is necessary in the function of the Spirit of Truth. However, what does the "or more" imply to you? "As many as possible"? The consent of every human individual, wouldn't that be recognised in the Spirit of Truth? I think Originality of Concept applies mostly in this case. For example, on Binghamton City Council, one representative Conrad Taylor was only 18 years old when first elected. Sometimes I believe he is not very skilled or does not know always the best plans for the city, but since there are people like Dan Livingston serving in other capacities, perhaps the originality of Tyler's approach is more promising in the career of a good legislator, being that he is good at raising the attendance and bringing in the greater consideration of the community on issues he feels strongly about.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Okay you say this, not any human group has the right to ratify truth. I agree that as a human individual, I do not have the right to ratify truth, but in another sense, "I can affirm Revelation," that which I have experienced and deemed to be true, in terms of ought, my plans, the things which I must do, thought conclusive in a private and personal manner, according to my ability and wherewith, the duty to action of which I may actually be obliged.


Yes, that's why it's personal and relative. What you're describing is personal, self or auto revelation of truth to your soul as it pertains to your particular life and its relationship to the cosmos. Your ratification of your personal experience with truth can also be considered a form of assurance. You know what is true in your personal experience and you know now. This relationship with truth is also called genuine personal religious experience.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Then there is this consideration, of how each of the decisions that were made in council by the Apostles, were to be accepted by Jesus: and the way that Andrew negotiated with the followers of John the Baptist. How does each man, each household say, set aside demands and in the best attempt at tolerance, consider all the views of the member presented at council. This pertains to what we, or what one who identifies as part of society, take into consideration and then regulate the function of I do not know? God's will or "the ministry of the angels of nations", "the Rule of the Most High", when there are any specific plans that should be acknowledged in the group-function of sentient beings in the universe. This pertains to what a person actually holds accountable within himself as an individual, and that portion of duty from citizenship that applies to their rights to enact such plan, without trammeling on the existing laws of the land, the values of a home nation or homeworld.


I don't think you have to worry about any of this if your labors are the spiritual fruit produced by your relationship with truth. The act is yours, but the consequences are God's. Allow him to worry about the consequences of fruit production. All you have to concern yourself with is more and more fruit production from your soul. Consider this reference, especially the part where Jesus says that you cannot yield the fruits of loving service without him:

(1945:04) 180:2.1 Then Jesus stood up again and continued teaching his apostles: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. I am the vine, and you are the branches. And the Father requires of me only that you shall bear much fruit. The vine is pruned only to increase the fruitfulness of its branches. Every branch coming out of me which bears no fruit, the Father will take away. Every branch which bears fruit, the Father will cleanse that it may bear more fruit. Already are you clean through the word I have spoken, but you must continue to be clean. You must abide in me, and I in you; the branch will die if it is separated from the vine. As the branch cannot bear fruit except it abides in the vine, so neither can you yield the fruits of loving service except you abide in me. Remember: I am the real vine, and you are the living branches. He who lives in me, and I in him, will bear much fruit of the spirit and experience the supreme joy of yielding this spiritual harvest. If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition. Herein is the Father glorified: that the vine has many living branches, and that every branch bears much fruit. And when the world sees these fruit-bearing branches--my friends who love one another, even as I have loved them--all men will know that you are truly my disciples.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
Whereever two or more are present is necessary in the function of the Spirit of Truth. However, what does the "or more" imply to you? "As many as possible"? The consent of every human individual, wouldn't that be recognised in the Spirit of Truth?


No, it only takes two personalities to form a relationship and the Spirit of Truth directs the loving relationship between one human being and another. But he can handle more than two if necessary. The only thing that hinders the efforts of the Spirit of Truth is refusal to accept his gospel.

(1950.6) 180:5.11 And so must we clearly recognize that neither the golden rule nor the teaching of nonresistance can ever be properly understood as dogmas or precepts. They can only be comprehended by living them, by realizing their meanings in the living interpretation of the Spirit of Truth, who directs the loving contact of one human being with another.

(379.5) 34:5.5 Though the Spirit of Truth is poured out upon all flesh, this spirit of the Son is almost wholly limited in function and power by man's personal reception of that which constitutes the sum and substance of the mission of the bestowal Son.

However, more than two people in a group is considered to be a social problem by the angels called the "Social Architects". This next set of references describes their work with social groups.

(432.5) 39:3.4 3. Social Architects. From the individual planets up through the morontia training worlds, these seraphim labor to enhance all sincere social contacts and to further the social evolution of universe creatures. These are the angels who seek to divest the associations of intelligent beings of all artificiality while endeavoring to facilitate the interassociation of will creatures on a basis of real self-understanding and genuine mutual appreciation.

(432.6) 39:3.5 Social architects do everything within their province and power to bring together suitable individuals that they may constitute efficient and agreeable working groups on earth; and sometimes such groups have found themselves reassociated on the mansion worlds for continued fruitful service. But not always do these seraphim attain their ends; not always are they able to bring together those who would form the most ideal group to achieve a given purpose or to accomplish a certain task; under these conditions they must utilize the best of the material available.

(432.7) 39:3.6 These angels continue their ministry on the mansion and higher morontia worlds. They are concerned with any undertaking having to do with progress on the morontia worlds and which concerns three or more persons. Two beings are regarded as operating on the mating, complemental, or partnership basis, but when three or more are grouped for service, they constitute a social problem and therefore fall within the jurisdiction of the social architects. These efficient seraphim are organized in seventy divisions on Edentia, and these divisions minister on the seventy morontia progress worlds encircling the headquarters sphere.


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It sounds like you both agree that the Spirit of Truth requires 2 or more people to function?

Isn't it true that wherever and whenever any group of believers gather, of any size, the Spirit(s) attend - all of them - even just one believer is so attended and accompanied. But when "two or more will creatures act in cooperation, there is always provided the authority of leadership."

This thread has become quite a rabbit hole recently with all manner of false claims about free will and Stephen's demands for false liberty and personal power being ignored, including more personal politics of no relevance or interest. Stephen's meandering manifesto and its pandering support. Another topic hijacked...with help this time.


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fanofVan wrote:
It sounds like you both agree that the Spirit of Truth requires 2 or more people to function?

Isn't it true that wherever and whenever any group of believers gather, of any size, the Spirit(s) attend - all of them - even just one believer is so attended and accompanied. But when "two or more will creatures act in cooperation, there is always provided the authority of leadership."


Not sure what you're talking about Bradly. Of course the Spirit of Truth communes individually with every soul who welcomes him. We're talking about groups, and in regards to groups Jesus said: "where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.” Also, the Spirit of Truth is about relations, all relations between with all things and all people.

(1762.5) 159:1.3 While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth, shall be recognized in heaven. Although you cannot determine the eternal fate of the individual, you may legislate regarding the conduct of the group, for, where two or three of you agree concerning any of these things and ask of me, it shall be done for you if your petition is not inconsistent with the will of my Father in heaven. And all this is ever true, for, where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.”

(647.4) 56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

fanofVan wrote:
This thread has become quite a rabbit hole recently with all manner of false claims about free will and Stephen's demands for false liberty and personal power being ignored.


We were having such a lovely, friendly and beneficial conversation. Please don't start again.


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IMO, Stephen has been discussing leadership and group wisdom and decision making issues...not Spirit of Truth questions. I then quoted Jesus... related to group leadership and authority.

Stephen definitively stated where two or more are present " is necessary in the function of the Spirit of Truth." This falsehood was not corrected or even addressed by you really.

Glad you're enjoying yourself but seems to me neither of you is really conversing with the other but each mostly having two one way monologues in different languages. The desire to teach is only effective when the other party is wishing to learn and sharing agreement in subject...good luck with that with your current "student" and "conversation".

And how do the 12 Mels reward us here as material beings with material rewards?

And does the spark of life become the soul? And does the spark "become" the one celled organism or actual evolution of all creatures? Really? And is the Holy Spirit an "it" until soul is born?


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fanofVan wrote:
The desire to teach is only effective when the other party is wishing to learn and sharing agreement in subject...good luck with that with your current "student" and "conversation".


Sorry? All teachers are students and all students become teachers. We are learning from one another, which is what sharing and socializing the personality is all about.

(647.5) 56:10.14 Every impulse of every electron, thought, or spirit is an acting unit in the whole universe. Only sin is isolated and evil gravity resisting on the mental and spiritual levels. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Self-realization is potentially evil if it is antisocial. It is literally true: "No man lives by himself." Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Said Jesus: "He who would be greatest among you, let him become server of all."

Have you had a chance to review all the answers I gave to your questions directed at me a few days ago? Rather than criticizing a friendly conversation that you're really not a part of, why not develop the conversation we were having? Have you forgotten? I spent a lot of time with the hope of developing a discussion, sharing ideas and socializing our personalities. Any thoughts?

fanofVan wrote:
Stephen definitively stated where two or more are present " is necessary in the function of the Spirit of Truth." This falsehood was not corrected or even addressed by you really.


That's because Stephen is essentially correct in that two persons are necessary for a relationship. The Spirit of Truth is one person, any other person, or persons, will do. And incidentally, I already provided the reference to group leadership in the conversation. Perhaps you missed it? Here it is again for your perusal:

katroofjebus wrote:
When it comes to group decisions, I remember what Jesus said, "where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them.” He also said: "Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership." Sooner or later a leader pops up in a group of people, and when that happens, I have to assume it's God's doing, but that doesn't mean you follow the leader blindly.


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Are we as individuals enjoying a round trip or "reciprocal" journey to Paradise per Stephen's claim? Why do you choose to ignore all of his very persistent claims about human pre-existence?

Also, Stephen has claimed on this thread at least 6 times that he and others do not "yet" enjoy free will. Yet no response.

So the intuition of the Divine Minister originates with creatures and backdoors to the DM by the adjutants?

And each mortal becomes another or the Holy Spirit by eventuation?

And the Divine Minister is an experiential soul and creature of the Holy Spirit, eh?

And why does the Supreme require the spark of life ...again?



So you appear to agree with these and so many other false claims by simply ignoring them in this so called conversation. Ignoring falsehood does not make it true...but it does appear to be agreement. Nice. And treacherous for students who also know they teach here...and those too new to know the difference.


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fanofVan wrote:
Are we as individuals enjoying a round trip or "reciprocal" journey to Paradise per Stephen's claim? Why do you choose to ignore all of his very persistent claims about human pre-existence?

Also, Stephen has claimed on this thread at least 6 times that he and others do not "yet" enjoy free will. Yet no response.
So the intuition of the Divine Minister originates with creatures and backdoors to the DM by the adjutants?
And each mortal becomes another or the Holy Spirit by eventuation?
And the Divine Minister is an experiential soul and creature of the Holy Spirit, eh?
And why does the Supreme require the spark of life ...again?
So you appear to agree with these and so many other false claims by simply ignoring them. Nice. And treacherous.


Bradly, you have just launched a personal attack on me, making unfounded accusations, impugning my character, challenging my integrity and indicting the honesty of my motives.

Jesus asked us to return good for evil and so I will, not only forgive you, but I will also pray for you. I will also do anything within my ability to help you. I'm not sure what that would be, but I am willing. The only thing I will not do is attack another human being to make you feel better. Sorry.


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Quote:
This thread has become quite a rabbit hole recently with all manner of false claims about free will and Stephen's demands for false liberty and personal power being ignored, including more personal politics of no relevance or interest. Stephen's meandering manifesto and its pandering support. Another topic hijacked...with help this time.


Quote:
Glad you're enjoying yourself but seems to me neither of you is really conversing with the other but each mostly having two one way monologues in different languages. The desire to teach is only effective when the other party is wishing to learn and sharing agreement in subject...good luck with that with your current "student" and "conversation".


From my viewpoint, this conversation is quite refreshing and informative and mature. We've been several days now without rancor, without accusation, without strife. What we HAVE had is discussion of The Urantia Book and its teachings in pretty great detail. A lot of Q+A, which is a great way to learn. Any new reader might benefit from going over this thread and using their own God-given minds to discern what's being said.

Thanks to those who are contributing in a positive way. The truth - and the teachings of The Urantia Book - will always withstand open discussion.

maryjo


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So you appear to agree with these and so many other false claims by simply ignoring them. Nice. And treacherous.


Bradly, I advise you to take care. You words are - once again - inflammatory and unkind. Do you need a time-out? Or, are you able to address issues in a mature fashion without the accusations? Your interjections here today are threatening to hijack this (up til now) productive conversation far more than the ones you accuse...

maryjo


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Are we as individuals enjoying a round trip or "reciprocal" journey to Paradise per Stephen's claim? Why do you choose to ignore all of his very persistent claims about human pre-existence?

Also, Stephen has claimed on this thread at least 6 times that he and others do not "yet" enjoy free will. Yet no response.
So the intuition of the Divine Minister originates with creatures and backdoors to the DM by the adjutants?
And each mortal becomes another or the Holy Spirit by eventuation?
And the Divine Minister is an experiential soul and creature of the Holy Spirit, eh?
And why does the Supreme require the spark of life ...again?
So you appear to agree with these and so many other false claims by simply ignoring them. Nice. And treacherous.


Bradly, you have just launched a personal attack on me, making unfounded accusations, impugning my character, challenging my integrity and indicting the honesty of my motives.

Jesus asked us to return good for evil and so I will, not only forgive you, but I will also pray for you. I will also do anything within my ability to help you. I'm not sure what that would be, but I am willing. The only thing I will not do is attack another human being to make you feel better. Sorry.


How is it a personal attack on you to repeat Stephen's unanswered claims made since Saturday? What did I accuse you of? The appearance of agreement by silence? But you were silent on these claims so confidently posted. A statement of fact is not an attack.

Maryjo, while no one objects, or even addressess these many false declarations which do not originate in the UB but are presented as is if they do, and which are not posted as questions by the way, the student body is being misled IMO. But you believe it to be pleasant and informative? If you say so. I disagree. I find it confusing, misleading, and a disservice to all sincere students. Sorry dissenting opinions are so unwelcome.

:-#


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Are we as individuals enjoying a round trip or "reciprocal" journey to Paradise per Stephen's claim? Why do you choose to ignore all of his very persistent claims about human pre-existence?

Also, Stephen has claimed on this thread at least 6 times that he and others do not "yet" enjoy free will. Yet no response.
So the intuition of the Divine Minister originates with creatures and backdoors to the DM by the adjutants?
And each mortal becomes another or the Holy Spirit by eventuation?
And the Divine Minister is an experiential soul and creature of the Holy Spirit, eh?
And why does the Supreme require the spark of life ...again?


Quote:
Maryjo, while no one objects, or even addressess these many false declarations which do not originate in the UB but are presented as is if they do, and which are not posted as questions by the way, the student body is being misled IMO. But you believe it to be pleasant and informative? If you say so. I disagree. I find it confusing, misleading, and a disservice to all sincere students. Sorry dissenting opinions are so unwelcome.


Bradly, if you find all of this to be so misleading, maybe you could address these issues yourself, instead of calling out those who have been only helpful in this thread. Why do you do that? All of a sudden, we are truly hijacked into something unpleasant, and it's become an issue of personalities rather than content. It could all be avoided with some real attempt to fellowship one another, as has been demonstrated here in the past few days. Now, here you come stirring a pot that's been bubbling along quite nicely...turning up the heat - and for what?

Again - you underestimate the ability of people here to think for themselves. You are not the gatekeeper, but you insist on trying to be. It is distressing and uncalled-for. If you can't contribute something positive, please don't contribute anything at all...


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maryjo606 wrote:
Quote:
Are we as individuals enjoying a round trip or "reciprocal" journey to Paradise per Stephen's claim? Why do you choose to ignore all of his very persistent claims about human pre-existence?

Also, Stephen has claimed on this thread at least 6 times that he and others do not "yet" enjoy free will. Yet no response.
So the intuition of the Divine Minister originates with creatures and backdoors to the DM by the adjutants?
And each mortal becomes another or the Holy Spirit by eventuation?
And the Divine Minister is an experiential soul and creature of the Holy Spirit, eh?
And why does the Supreme require the spark of life ...again?


Quote:
Maryjo, while no one objects, or even addressess these many false declarations which do not originate in the UB but are presented as is if they do, and which are not posted as questions by the way, the student body is being misled IMO. But you believe it to be pleasant and informative? If you say so. I disagree. I find it confusing, misleading, and a disservice to all sincere students. Sorry dissenting opinions are so unwelcome.


Bradly, if you find all of this to be so misleading, maybe you could address these issues yourself, instead of calling out those who have been only helpful in this thread. Why do you do that? All of a sudden, we are truly hijacked into something unpleasant, and it's become an issue of personalities rather than content. It could all be avoided with some real attempt to fellowship one another, as has been demonstrated here in the past few days. Now, here you come stirring a pot that's been bubbling along quite nicely...turning up the heat - and for what?

Again - you underestimate the ability of people here to think for themselves. You are not the gatekeeper, but you insist on trying to be. It is distressing and uncalled-for. If you can't contribute something positive, please don't contribute anything at all...


Actually, I did list the issues and claims I disagree with that were posted and the issue of not acknowledging or correcting those contradictions to the text and did so without comment on any personality I believe. I know of kat's integrity and knowledge of the UB and dedication to accurately portray the contents of the Revelation which is why I am so puzzled with all lack of response to total fictions and flatly false fabrications which directly contradict the Revelation- a new and unexpected strategy by a long time poster and seasoned student...whose person or personality I would never "attack".


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