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katroofjebus wrote:
Bradly, the references you provided do not answer the question I asked what you meant by this: "The adjutants of worship and wisdom delivers our spirit nature which is the will of God I think."

Do the two higher adjutants deliver our spirit nature? As I understand it, our spirit nature is our soul. If you mean that, how do the spirits of worship and wisdom deliver our soul?

Are you perhaps attempting to say that the spirits of worship and wisdom minister to our material minds and are responsible for providing the soil from which the material co-partner of soul formation arises?

And, are you saying the will of God is our spirit nature or are you saying the adjutants of worship and wisdom are the will of God, or is it the delivery that is the will of God? It's all very confusing as written and I'm asking for a clarification in your own words please. It's not possible to have a discussion if we don't understand one another. Talking at one another is not a discussion, it's contest. I would prefer to avoid that.


It is my understanding that faith is the relationship between God and me. That relationship begins before the Adjuster's arrival and birth of soul as does the evolutionary religious experience and the faith and faith assurance relationship. I think the religious "nature" originates by the function of the higher adjutant circuits and the Holy Spirit. We have a religious experience, a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth I think. I am saying it is the presence of God is our spirit nature and that occurs long before the Adjuster arrives - on entire planets and with the children of today's world both. Faith, assurance, and religion do not begin with nor await the arrival of the TA...not according to the UB as I understand it.

103:0.1 (1129.1) ALL of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

108:2.2 (1187.1) The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil—moral choice.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
If faith were a gift like personality, free will, and time, then would not all mortals have faith? Do all mortals have faith?


If they are God-conscious, if they have a soul, then every personality has the gift of faith. Whether or not a person accepts the gift is entirely a personal matter.

As it is written in the reference you provided above, faith is the relationship between Creator and creature; it is a living and growing gift provided the creature participates. Additionally, this relationship occurs in the soul, and each individual person has his own personal experience with the gift of faith, which is why they say: "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself."

fanofVan wrote:
Is there faith prior to the soul's birth? Is it faith that gives birth to soul?


Obviously not if it's a relationship between Father and son, Creator and creature, God and man. Wisdom is the coordinator of the lower nature with the higher nature (soul), but neither it nor the adjutant of worship are equipped to provide the gift of faith. Only a spirit personality can do that within a personality relationship. The adjutants are not personalities. This is why the endowment of the Holy Spirit at the birth of the soul is so critical. She is a spirit personality presence. Even before Adjutants arrive she provides the relationship, which makes available the gift of faith.

When it is written that faith is the price of admission to the Father's kingdom, it is a reference to the maintenance of the faith-trust relationship between Father and son, known as sonship. Incidentally, sonship is also a gift. It goes right along with faith.


Sorry for my confusion...are you claiming there is no relationship between our personality and the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit also God? The text clearly says we have relationship with the Holy Spirit and we enjoy the "presence of the other" and faith and faith assurance without the presence of the Adjuster and the ministry of personal revelation and truth assurance. The UB further says you cannot distinguish one God from any other...all Deity is God...including the Holy Spirit.

How is that faith and faith assurance occur prior to the TA's arrival? Let me repeat:


103:0.1 (1129.1) ALL of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

108:2.2 (1187.1) The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil—moral choice.

8:5.3 (95.6) In your sacred writings the term Spirit of God seems to be used interchangeably to designate both the Infinite Spirit on Paradise and the Creative Spirit of your local universe. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual circuit of this Creative Daughter of the Paradise Infinite Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a circuit indigenous to each local universe and is confined to the spiritual realm of that creation; but the Infinite Spirit is omnipresent.

8:5.4 (95.7) There are many spiritual influences, and they are all as one. Even the work of the Thought Adjusters, though independent of all other influences, unvaryingly coincides with the spirit ministry of the combined influences of the Infinite Spirit and a local universe Mother Spirit. As these spiritual presences operate in the lives of Urantians, they cannot be segregated. In your minds and upon your souls they function as one spirit, notwithstanding their diverse origins. And as this united spiritual ministration is experienced, it becomes to you the influence of the Supreme, “who is ever able to keep you from failing and to present you blameless before your Father on high.”

8:5.5 (96.1) Ever remember that the Infinite Spirit is the Conjoint Actor; both the Father and the Son are functioning in and through him; he is present not only as himself but also as the Father and as the Son and as the Father-Son. In recognition of this and for many additional reasons the spirit presence of the Infinite Spirit is often referred to as “the spirit of God.”


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Bradly, I don't think it is fair to keep adding material to your posts after-the-fact. The edit button is for correcting errors of print.

fanofVan wrote:
Regarding kat's post and quotes above, please note that faith stands for the individual's relation to God, which is certainly God's gift to all beings in his creation. So life itself, free will, personality, mind, time, and faith are all gifts of God. And faith is the relationship, initiated by God, which grows according to our inner response to God and God's gifts.


There are many more gifts of God. Other gifts are: sonship, salvation, mercy, revelation, spiritual insight, adjutant mind ministry, and don't forget the Adjuster (Love), the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth. I would even say that grace is a gift. So many gifts. We are all very rich. Which is what is meant by this reference:

(556.6) 48:7.6 4. Few mortals ever dare to draw anything like the sum of personality credits established by the combined ministries of nature and grace. The majority of impoverished souls are truly rich, but they refuse to believe it.


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fanofVan wrote:
It is my understanding that faith is the relationship between God and me. That relationship begins before the Adjuster's arrival and birth of soul as does the evolutionary religious experience and the faith and faith assurance relationship.


Thank you for that clarification. I agree with your definition of faith, but if faith is a relationship between two persons, what person are you having a relationship before your soul is born and the Adjuster arrives?? I don't think that is logical. You might be having a relationship with a psychological alter-ego God-wanna-be, but not with God himself, the giver of faith.

Evolutionary religious experience begins with the spirit of worship, an adjutant which is not a personality. It's not possible to have a personal relationship with an impersonal mind circuit. What the spirit of worship does is provide impetus to search for God. The adjutants are directional urges meant to evolve thought toward higher realms of potential. And no impersonal mind circuit can provide assurance. Divine assurance requires a relationship with a divine personality.

fanofVan wrote:
I think the religious "nature" originates by the function of the higher adjutant circuits and the Holy Spirit.


You can't have access to the Holy Spirit without a soul. She doesn't just float around hooking up with minds randomly. She cannot encircuit a mind until it has been prepared by all seven of the adjutants and the personality has made its first moral decision, entering into the seventh psychic/cosmic circle. Take note of the word "first" in this reference:

103:0.1 All of man's truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man's first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man's viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

fanofVan wrote:
We have a religious experience, a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth I think. I am saying it is the presence of God is our spirit nature and that occurs long before the Adjuster arrives - on entire planets and with the children of today's world both.


A faith experience is a creature-Creator personal religious experience. Where would a creature get access to the personality of God without a soul? And how would a creature have a personal relationship (personality-to-personality) without the presence of God in the soul? If the presence of God is our spirit nature, as you say, and exists before the Adjuster arrives, then such a presence can be none other than the personality presence of the Holy Spirit within the soul. By the way, our spirit nature is our soul. Reference:

(1738.1) 156:5.2 Your spirit nature — the jointly created soul — is a living growth, but the mind and morals of the individual are the soil from which these higher manifestations of human development and divine destiny must spring. The soil of the evolving soul is human and material, but the destiny of this combined creature of mind and spirit is spiritual and divine.”

fanofVan wrote:
Faith, assurance, and religion do not begin with nor await the arrival of the TA...not according to the UB as I understand it.


I'm under the impression that you believe it's impossible to have a soul without an Adjuster. That's simply not true. The Holy Spirit is a sufficient source of spirit substance for soul (morontia) birth.


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fanofvan requests Example how I might doing things each day to better one's self.

134:9.6 “It behooves me to keep busy while I wait for my hour to come.”
128:2.2 As a result of several family conferences it was decided that it was unwise for all the boys to take up carpentry. It was thought that by diversifying their trades they would be prepared to take contracts for putting up entire buildings. Again, they had not all kept busy since three of them had been working as full-time carpenters.
& Ephesians 4:11-17

If we could observe the state of readiness and business, then we see why Jesus gave Simon unto Jacob the Mason's teaching. There were already 3 carpenters in the family, and perhaps that was enough for the entire town of Nazareth. Men and women all have different skillsets, and also different potentials in terms of what can be learned, what one might be good at doing. The basic skills must be mastered before achievements of final reality may begin. But Jesus was looking to help every member of his family find the right work to do, to help people plan for the better set of challenges that they would be sure to face in their own labours.

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fanofVan wrote:
My response: I don't find motive to be at all cerebral. Guess we'll disagree on that.


I don't think you understood me. I didn't say motive is cerebral, I said emphasizing on "why" is too cerebral. Why God's will involves this or that is none of my business. Why am I willing that God's will be done? There's only one answer to that, because I love him. I don't see any reason for asking why when it comes to having a loving relationship whether it be with God or with a spouse or a child or any other person I happen to have a relationship with. Do you recall this:

(1140.3) 103:8.3 A good and noble man may be consummately in love with his wife but utterly unable to pass a satisfactory written examination on the psychology of marital love. Another man, having little or no love for his spouse, might pass such an examination most acceptably. The imperfection of the lover’s insight into the true nature of the beloved does not in the least invalidate either the reality or sincerity of his love.

A good and noble man who is sincerely in love with his spouse may not be able to explain why.

fanofVan wrote:
Motivation becomes nearly instinctual in determining our responses at every intersection of choice....we are told it becomes reflexive even....automatic and natural.


First let it be known that I am not minimizing the importance of motivation, but what I think you're confusing with motivation is the intentional conditioned habitual reflexes to spiritual stimuli which promote spiritual growth. There's only one motivation for that and it's love.

fanofVan wrote:
Faith and assurance and religious experience and wisdom all combine to change our motivations and our intentions and our priorities...these determine our choices and our outcomes...or so I understand.


And that change is the result of what? Increasing love of the person you're having a relationship with – God the Father. The more you love him the more you know him. Divine things must be loved in order to be known. And the more you know God the Father, the more you want to be like him, the more you want to fulfill his decree, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” It's all about love, the only motivation, and there's no need to know why because it is self-evident.

fanofVan wrote:
I think you are choosing to ignore the issue raised by Stephen which is a very common one among believers....the desire by some to know the timing and tactic and strategy and intention that reflects God's perfect choice at the intersection of human decision. This is something that will remain elusive and impossible to all mortals for all time. The UB says mortal ascenders will ONLY perfect the MOTIVE for our decisions when we arrive in Paradise. We will not be making perfect choices or know the will of God so long as we believe that knowing WHAT his will is should be ours to know. It's not.


That's funny because I haven't read anything like that from Stephen. I think everyone knows that for any particular project, only when our minds are attuned to the Adjuster's premind and we act upon it can we be assured of doing God's will. But chances are it's not a conscious thing, since doing the Father's will is an act of goodness and all goodness is unconsciousness, as Jesus said. The goal of the psychic/cosmic circles its to achieve and maintain that attunement, to connect to the vine so as it cannot be disconnected, then joyfully reap the fruits of such a union.

fanofVan wrote:
All God requires for spiritual growth is that our will be driven by the motive of love of God and a desire to do his will and then trust God for all outcomes related thereto. This is a critical point!


On this we can agree, but there is no reason to wonder "why?".

fanofVan wrote:
There can be no assurance and no security unless and until we understand the difference.


I think that's an overzealous claim. Assurance can be had without understanding a dang thing. I think assurance passes all understanding. But that's not to say that assurance cannot be strengthened and grown by increasing understanding of the nature of truth, beauty and goodness, the personality's love of God.


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fanofVan wrote:
Sorry for my confusion...are you claiming there is no relationship between our personality and the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit also God?


No. I did not say such a thing. Here's what I said: "This is why the endowment of the Holy Spirit at the birth of the soul is so critical. She is a spirit personality presence. Even before Adjutants arrive she provides the relationship, which makes available the gift of faith."

She provides the first or initial relationship, and "she" is the Holy Spirit. I think what I wrote is pretty clear.

fanofVan wrote:
How is that faith and faith assurance occur prior to the TA's arrival? Let me repeat:


Let me repeat your words:
We have a religious experience, a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth I think. I am saying it is the presence of God is our spirit nature and that occurs long before the Adjuster arrives - on entire planets and with the children of today's world both.

There is no way to have a soul without the Holy Spirit. So, there is no way to have "a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth." No soul, no Holy Spirit, no source of spirit personality presence to have a relationship with, no gift of faith, no faith assurance. Sorry. Either your thinking is wrong or your writing is wrong. Something is not right with what you wrote. The soul, and the Holy Spirit, can exist without a Thought Adjuster but faith is not possible without a soul.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Sorry for my confusion...are you claiming there is no relationship between our personality and the Holy Spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit also God?


No. I did not say such a thing. Here's what I said: "This is why the endowment of the Holy Spirit at the birth of the soul is so critical. She is a spirit personality presence. Even before Adjutants arrive she provides the relationship, which makes available the gift of faith."

She provides the first or initial relationship, and "she" is the Holy Spirit. I think what I wrote is pretty clear.

fanofVan wrote:
How is that faith and faith assurance occur prior to the TA's arrival? Let me repeat:


Let me repeat your words:
We have a religious experience, a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth I think. I am saying it is the presence of God is our spirit nature and that occurs long before the Adjuster arrives - on entire planets and with the children of today's world both.

There is no way to have a soul without the Holy Spirit. So, there is no way to have "a faith experience, and faith assurance relationship prior to the soul's birth." No soul, no Holy Spirit, no source of spirit personality presence to have a relationship with, no gift of faith, no faith assurance. Sorry. Either your thinking is wrong or your writing is wrong. Something is not right with what you wrote. The soul, and the Holy Spirit, can exist without a Thought Adjuster but faith is not possible without a soul.


Yes...it is my understanding that the Adjuster and mortal mind are the co-parents of the soul. This seems especially true on a world where the Son's Spirit is activated. I am always interested in learning more and finding new meanings in prior information and knowledge...so I look forward to learning about the parentage of soul. Thank you. So no Holy Spirit connection until the birth of soul? So we give birth to soul with the Holy Spirit as co-parent and then we have a faith experience relationship that does not yet include personal revelation but is faith based only and delivers faith assurance and then, eventually around age 5.5-6 the TA arrives after the soul has already been born? If so, I do indeed still have plenty to learn about the UB.

I have posted text which clearly says we experience the ministry of both the adjutants and the Holy Spirit prior to the birth of the soul. We have religious experience before the TA and prior to birth of soul in liaison with the Holy Spirit. 103:0.1 does not say our first supermind endowment is the soul. 108:2.2 clearly says it is the mortal mind of man that is so encircuited. You seem to be claiming that mortal mind is the same as soul. 8:5.4 says that our minds AND our souls are ministered to by the ministry of spirit. How do we have religious experience without the Holy Spirit I wonder?

I look forward to text which specifies that the Holy Spirit does not minister to mortal mind until after the birth of soul and that it is the Holy Spirit that is responsible for and is the spirit parent of soul. Cannot the Holy Spirit minister to mind prior to the birth of soul? On Urantia, the Adjusters come immediately upon qualification and the birth of soul is completed upon their arrival according to 108:2.1-4. Until then, let us consider:



108:6.6 (1193.5) And as you are the human parent, so is the Adjuster the divine parent of the real you, your higher and advancing self, your better morontial and future spiritual self. And it is this evolving morontial soul that the judges and censors discern when they decree your survival and pass you upward to new worlds and never-ending existence in eternal liaison with your faithful partner—God, the Adjuster.

108:6.7 (1193.6) The Adjusters are the eternal ancestors, the divine originals, of your evolving immortal souls; they are the unceasing urge that leads man to attempt the mastery of the material and present existence in the light of the spiritual and future career. The Monitors are the prisoners of undying hope, the founts of everlasting progression. And how they do enjoy communicating with their subjects in more or less direct channels! How they rejoice when they can dispense with symbols and other methods of indirection and flash their messages straight to the intellects of their human partners!

111:1.2 (1216.3) There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

111:2.2 (1217.6) The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings—a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.

Are you saying that supermind is the same as soul? I'd also like more information on that claim. Thank you.

92:0.4 (1003.4) 3. The Holy Spirit—this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.

This sure sounds pre-soul to me. The evolutionary religious experience is a personal experience but prior to soul as I understand it. Children have religious experience prior to soul birth, as do primitive peoples.

103:7.14 (1139.6) There is a real proof of spiritual reality in the presence of the Thought Adjuster, but the validity of this presence is not demonstrable to the external world, only to the one who thus experiences the indwelling of God. The consciousness of the Adjuster is based on the intellectual reception of truth, the supermind perception of goodness, and the personality motivation to love.

Again, no mention of soul here for the supermind connection to the Holy Spirit.

Just seeking clarification on the birth of soul and the religious experience prior to that birth if there is such a thing. Thanks again.


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When I look at the example of what a Thought Adjuster might be like, I am drawn to the nature of great psychiatrists like Sigmund Freud, who was drawn to the psychological issues of others in Society that provoked them much trauma. With the idea of the imitatio d' Christi as a guiding stone on the path of Carl Jung's psychiatry, is also very appealing. If these people came to shoulder the real psychological burdens of mankind, then why were they so drawn to the needs and anxieties of others?

Rudolf Steiner said that Jesus Christ is the human archetype and so does the Urantia Book. I would like to know about your explanation about why anxiety is to the human psyche just as fear is to human evolutionary religion. And I want to know how anxiety may reveal the true nature of a person's goals, why success and failure occurs, and I need Book IV of the Urantia Book to see a healthy human family function as a unit, as in the family of Joseph of Nazareth, in order to understand how much I can push progress, when people can become more amenable to growth, and how Jesus respected the culture of the home. From an experiencial perspective, these facets of personal and developmental growth are intimately linked.

Luke 15:27&32 "The servant said to him, ‘Your brother has returned and your father has slaughtered the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’
His father said to him, " now we must celebrate and rejoice, because your brother was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’”

You have heard the lengthy deliberations about assurance from the perspective of one who, apparantly, has never disobeyed orders and has always known God's will without deviation. However, for one who has gone off, for heedless sorts of pursuits, and experienced the uncertainty of God's foregiveness, I just want you to know that God holds the ultimate blueprint of my destiny, and no matter how much you dismiss my claim, it has been from the distress and despair of reaping of my own folly, and the anxiety therefrom, that I am crawled back to begin the approach for a lifetime to serve, as a servant, in order to gain the wisdom of the one you love.

Human individuals can reach ascender status while alive in their lifetimes, and the goal of attaining destiny is so powerful that anxiety can shape the human psyche in many ways. Like the Urantia Book suggests: humans eventually come to a surfeit of knowledge that they conclude that human choice by nature is constituted in the will of God. It is as you have said katroof: I will find my answers "through the anvils of necessity."

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Neither God's love or forgiveness are ever uncertain or conditional....according to the UB. Any and all limitations to love originate within ourselves. The prodigal son is a good example...the father's love was limited only by the son's willingness to accept and receive it. God's love is certain, absolute even, unwavering, enduring, patient, forgiving, uniform, universal, and yet deeply personal, tender, and affectionate.

We each and all determine our personal fate and destiny. We must choose the path and commit to the work of experiential wisdom and transcendent ascendency, learning the reality of love and service as we embrace truth, beauty, and goodness. God's gifts of mind, free will, and personality puts us in charge of the blueprint. But, as you say, God has a plan and provides the pilgrim's path for us to follow home. We are upon it now.

And no one avoids the hammer and anvil Stephen. Certainly not me. Karma or the repercussions and consequences of folly and self indulgence have been a relentless teacher. I only claimed to have already learned how useless and unhealthy is anxiety and worries. The hammer and anvil have taught me to trust the Lord and be contented with life and my certain destiny. I have earned my faithful peace of mind promised to all tadpoles who believe and walk the pilgrim's path and I have the scars to prove it. But belittle my experience as you wish. I can take it. = )

:roll:


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Dear katroofjebus and Bradly,

Thanks for exploring the birth of the soul. Just wondering, with regard to human survival, do any papers mention mortal survival where an Adjuster was not involved in creating the soul of that survivor?

Paper 40 section 5 discusses various types of ascending mortals of time and space, and says something about various relationships with Adjusters,
UB 40:5 wrote:
(40:5.5) 1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
(40:5.6) 2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
(40:5.7) 3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential.

but I can't recall any mention of souls being born, except in association with an Adjuster.

Can anyone help with this?
Nigel


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Nigel - the Adjuster does not respond if the human soul has not been found to be worthy of survival. This choice is not constituted as much in the vouching for, as much as perhaps a failure to respond to the universal urge to surival, for the soul within the human individual.

174:1.1 "James claims you [Jesus] teach that the Father forgives us even before we ask him, and I [Peter] maintain[s] that repentance and confession must precede the forgiveness."

169:3.2-3 "while this olden parable is not according to the gospel we preach, you would all do well to heed its lessons until such a time as you comprehend the new light of the kingdom of heaven. The story as John told it was like this:
There was a certain rich man named Dives, who, being clothed in purple and fine linen, lived in mirth and splendor every day. And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at this rich man's gate, covered with sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; yes, even the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died and was carried away by the angels to rest in Abraham's bosom. And then, presently, this rich man also died and was buried with great pomp and regal splendor. When the rich man departed from this world, he waked up in Hades, and finding himself in torment, he lifted up his eyes and beheld Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. And then Dives cried aloud: ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send over Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue, for I am in great anguish because of my punishment.' And then Abraham replied: ‘My son, you should remember that in your lifetime you enjoyed the good things while Lazarus in like manner suffered the evil. But now all this is changed, seeing that Lazarus is comforted while you are tormented. And besides, between us and you there is a great gulf so that we cannot go to you, neither can you come over to us.' Then said Dives to Abraham: ‘I pray you send Lazarus back to my father's house, inasmuch as I have five brothers, that he may so testify as to prevent my brothers from coming to this place of torment.' But Abraham said: ‘My son, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And then answered Dives: ‘No, No, Father Abraham! but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.' And then said Abraham: ‘If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded even if one were to rise from the dead.'"
This is the risk that if your assurance is not provided from the cultural and mundane sources, then neither could it be provided by the Thought Adjuster.

Since the Thought Adjuster is the mark of cosmic citizenship, it follows that it would become something of the title of authority within a culture who congregates around the Urantia Papers. When we are seeking assurance, the same could come from any experiencial source. If "even a dog came to lick Lazarus' sores", we can see how not just Holy Spirit but many creatures helping that individual to relieve the conditions which cause stress on the psyche. Even Dogs, who have not wisdom, try to relieve the anxiety of others. Therefore, it is inevitable that we would come to hear people blaspheming, claiming to have such authority to speak for the Fragment, claiming the ultimate assurance, and all this instead of electing "I would represent that, if I am able," knowing that such representation is uncertain, knowing that at best one may try to do so, as a child.

The assurance that each person may gain must be culturally and experiencially valid, according to a person's original experiences. no sophist exclaims that he does not even know if Jesus' assurance that John Mark will become the mighty messanger, if it is the same assurance whether John Mark is Adjuster Indwellt. But what is the difference between a "mighty messanger" or a "Mighty Messanger", the theory is that Mighty Messangers are fused human ascenders, and the fact is that John Mark was told that he will become that, so John Mark must have been Adjuster Indwellt, inferentially. And the beauty in that is that John Mark's own work as an Apostle is so obscure.

What kind of assurance if you only demand the kind that can be provided by the Thought Adjusters. It is because you want us to presume that you do attest for the assuredness of faith bestowed upon every human individual by God the First Source and Center. But assurance can be brought through the love of others, through the experiencial actuality of the Supreme Being.

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nnunn wrote:
but I can't recall any mention of souls being born, except in association with an Adjuster.


The Urantia Book describes the birth of a soul as entrance into the seventh psychic circle. We know in our current era that all souls are indwelt with Thought Adjusters, so the description in the Revelation includes the arrival of the Thought Adjuster. But prior to the gift of the Spirit of Truth not all souls are indwelt by Adjusters. If you read the next reference closely it states that prior to the presence of the Spirit of Truth, Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings, and only bona fide human beings have souls. Later I'll try to explain what a bona fide human being is, but bear with me.

(227.6) 20:5.3 Some order of Paradise Son must be bestowed upon each mortal-inhabited world in order to make it possible for Thought Adjusters to indwell the minds of all normal human beings on that sphere, for the Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings until the Spirit of Truth has been poured out upon all flesh; and the sending of the Spirit of Truth is dependent upon the return to universe headquarters of a Paradise Son who has successfully executed a mission of mortal bestowal upon an evolving world.

In the next set of references note that Thought Adjusters cannot enter the mind until it has been properly prepared. Part of that preparation is a morontia arena for the Thought Adjuster's indwelling, created by the encircuitment of the Holy Spirit, which is the soul. In the second paragraph it states that not even this morontia soul creation is sufficient to insure the reception of an Adjuster until the outpouring of the Spirit of Truth. This means it is possible to have a soul without an Adjuster. The requirement for a soul as three components: contact by all seven adjutants; a moral decision; and encircuitment by the Holy Spirit. That's it.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

(1187.2) 108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

Reading further, the Revelation explains that in those days of old before the Spirit of Truth was poured out, the Adjusters arrived to indwell the soul under several different circumstances. One of those conditions was entrance into the third psychic/cosmic circle. Entrance into any of the seven psychic/cosmic circles cannot be done without a soul because of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the soul supermind arena. Additionally, the psychic/cosmic circles are circles of soul growth due to bona fide personality choice.

(1187.6) 108:2.7 2. The attainment of the third circle of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment. I have observed Adjusters arrive in mortal minds upon the conquest of the third circle even before such an accomplishment could be signalized to the local universe personalities concerned with such matters.

And then I appeal to logic. If prior to Pentecost not every personality was indwelt with an Adjuster, and if the possession of a soul is impossible without an Adjuster, then an absolute enormous number of personalities would have no chance of survival until 2,000 years ago. That makes no sense especially since we know that in order to be called a bona fide human being one must have personality, contact with all seven adjutants and contact with the Holy Spirit, which all add up to a soul, and it is the soul which assures survival, continuing life. If the creatures roaming our planet prior to Pentecost did not have souls, they would not be considered humans, they would be animals or possibly pre-humans. The Holy Spirit, the source of soul supermind, appears in all bona fide human personalities. Reference:

(1003.4) 92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit — this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.

What makes a personality bona fide in the eyes of the universe? It's the first bona fide functioning of the power of free-will choice in making a moral decision. In other words, the birth of the soul, which is entrance into the seventh psychic/cosmic circle. When an individual's personality begins to truly function, as described in the reference below, it is utilizing its free will to make moral decisions with cosmic potential, and that gives personality bona fides. The soul is the result, and again, the soul contains the Holy Spirit who appears in all bona fide personalities, but prior to the Spirit of Truth, not all of those souls had Thought Adjusters indwelling them.

(1209:1)  110:6.1  The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality. Entrance upon the seventh circle marks the beginning of true human personality function. Completion of the first circle denotes the relative maturity of the mortal being. Though the traversal of the seven circles of cosmic growth does not equal fusion with the Adjuster, the mastery of these circles marks the attainment of those steps which are preliminary to Adjuster fusion.

I hope you have been able to follow me and connect the dots. The take-home message is that Thought Adjusters do not come to all bona fide human beings (prior to Pentecost), and in order to be considered a bona fide human being, there must be a soul.


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Quote:
The Urantia Book describes the birth of a soul as entrance into the seventh psychic circle.


nope...birth of a soul is described as the first moral choice and entering the 7th circle is described as attaining moral responsibility (along with additional attainments). not here to argue it with you again...just pointing out the facts for those who see the difference....


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katroofjebus wrote:
108:2.7 2. The attainment of the third circle of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment. I have observed Adjusters arrive in mortal minds upon the conquest of the third circle even before such an accomplishment could be signalized to the local universe personalities concerned with such matters.


the Thought Adjuster may be functioning within the center of progress, you know as it is written "like a pilot light or a spiritual nucleus", all along. But such conquest is marked because of the greater set new challenges that such human must inevitably face. The preparation of growth prepares the unconsciousness in the personality to perform on a greater stage, a plane of existence within the psychic circle. The signalisation is not necessary for the human individual's personality, but for the ministry or spiritual administration how they consult or refer to a person who had gained such status. Certainly, you would not want your own child to be treated as on such plane until their own experiencial accomplishments had been well-proven.

I agree with your analysis. I do not understand what is meant by "free-will choice" as to me choice must be acceptible according to the possibility of circumstance in the fulfillment of God's will. I am unsure because it is written that the Thought Adjuster holds the records of my choices, and this is according to the life of the Supreme Being, rather than my identity or self-conception. But I trust that the home of Joseph & Mary was the best circumstance in which to portray that actuality of the Universal Father as a human individual, namely "the son of man". So that would be my justification as to why Jesus is really the pattern-archetype of human psychology. My personal anxiety will always be compared to that ideal, if I am too part of that home. This is a major adjustment, not only to be part of that family but to bring my entire family ancestors and progeny into that fold.

My friend Saul once told me, maybe you will one day journey to Jerusalem and Bar Joppis (Tel Aviv) to see and experience this nation Israel for yourself. But I am so unsure as to how I could gain such Diploma or Visa, that I am almost convinced that I may never do so in the course of my life.

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