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kat asks above: "What reaction do you have to uncertainty, Bradley? Have you already learned to feast upon uncertainty like those who arrive on the shores of Havona? Have you already completely transcended your human body and mind to a point of complete mastery? I'm sorry to tell you that a tadpole will naturally feel the emotions of fear and anxiety when faced with baffling uncertainties, and that is part of the divine plan which ever urges the tadpole mind to search for higher levels of thinking and living."

Personally I have relished the unknown and uncertain most of my life. I eagerly embraced adventures and new opportunities to learn and challenge my abilities. I think that's very normal. I think some of us learn anxiety and fear over time by social pressures and media and by the bitterness and disappointments and fears of our elders and the demands of society for conformity and uniformity.

I left home, friends, and family when a teen with a backpack on my back and a few hundred bucks and a thumb raised with the wind at my back to go see what I could find out.....must have some Andite in me somewhere. There is nothing more uncertain than the adventure of the road. My life has been quite the adventure of discovery and becoming. I am very good at adapting to Plan B...hahahaha!

Complete mastery? Again with the condescension and sarcasm kat, eh?

I have less and less anxiety and more and more confidence and security in all uncertainties kat. It's part of growing in the Spirit and a result of the fruits of the Spirit...and even us tadpoles may aspire and can accomplish much regarding absolute trust in God and faith in our destiny and anticipation of the adventures ahead! It's called maturity and experience and wisdom born of spiritization and growth of the soul. It's pretty natural...and completely normal. Or so I understand.

Thanks for asking..... :roll: :biggrin: 8)

156:5.12 (1739.7) Kingdom believers should possess an implicit faith, a whole-souled belief, in the certain triumph of righteousness. Kingdom builders must be undoubting of the truth of the gospel of eternal salvation. Believers must increasingly learn how to step aside from the rush of life—escape the harassments of material existence—while they refresh the soul, inspire the mind, and renew the spirit by worshipful communion.

156:5.13 (1739.8) God-knowing individuals are not discouraged by misfortune or downcast by disappointment. Believers are immune to the depression consequent upon purely material upheavals; spirit livers are not perturbed by the episodes of the material world. Candidates for eternal life are practitioners of an invigorating and constructive technique for meeting all of the vicissitudes and harassments of mortal living. Every day a true believer lives, he finds it easier to do the right thing.

156:5.20 (1740.7) The God-conscious mortal is certain of salvation; he is unafraid of life; he is honest and consistent. He knows how bravely to endure unavoidable suffering; he is uncomplaining when faced by inescapable hardship.

156:5.21 (1740.8) The true believer does not grow weary in well-doing just because he is thwarted. Difficulty whets the ardor of the truth lover, while obstacles only challenge the exertions of the undaunted kingdom builder.


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Hi katroofjebus and Bradly,

Regarding how to help each other (*) grow beyond anxiety and fear, (*) learn truly to relish adventure and uncertainty, and (*) bask in (ever more deeply appreciated) assurance, I'm guessing that lightness of touch, and love, are the base of the recipie? Reflecting on what Jesus did rather than what he taught, whatever he did (and now does), the best part is that he "awakens the response of love in the human heart",
UB 188:5.2 wrote:
"Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart." (188:5.2, 2018.1)

thanks to you both for such deep explorations!

Nigel


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fanofVan wrote:

How is worry "pressure from above"? Do you suggest that anxieties are sourced by or originate with the Spirits? I am quite certain that the Spirits deliver assurance and affirmations and confirmation and confidence and faith and truth....not anxiety. Any quotes that suggest anxiety is a very good thing for the mind, soul, progress, or faith of a believer? Or only that it leads savages to store food for the winter to avoid starvation? Please describe all the benefits listed in the UB for this "healthy" emotion...so claimed now by 3 different students. A puzzler to me. Did you all read the quotes listed in the link I provided? It seems very clear...at least to me.


You point out wisely, I think, that worry is not desirable and very likely not part of the divine plan. But anxiety doesn't necessarily develop into worry. It is very important for us to develop the capability and habit of keeping anxiety as an impetus for positive change and never let it drive us into negative, non-constructive things like worry, compulsion, helplessness, ambivalence, etc., Isn't it?

Expressed mathematically, I believe

Anxiety = (External Pressure / Mastery of Situations Such Pressure Elicits) - Mastery Steps That We Are Currently Engaged In

Where "External Pressure" may chance to be the voice of all spiritual agencies which are interesting in seeing us advance from circle to circle.
Or not. "External Pressure" can be entirely mundane and in that case, on the advice of The Master we ought to downstep our over concern of the issue.


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Riktare wrote:
But anxiety doesn't necessarily develop into worry. It is very important for us to develop the capability and habit of keeping anxiety as an impetus for positive change and never let it drive us into negative, non-constructive things like worry, compulsion, helplessness, ambivalence, etc., Isn't it?


I agree with this. Anxiety is part of the divine plan, "the anvil of necessity and the hammers of fear". It's initially put there to help our animal nature survive and evolve. Our perfecting divine nature is meant to direct and master its effects through purposive supremacy, or evolution of dominance, or transfer of identity. Fear operates the same way. "Fear of the Lord" is the beginning of wisdom. Problems from fear and anxiety arise only when people allow those emotions to enslave them, when they fail to be the master of them. This apparently is a huge problem in our current era of civilization.

(1124.1) 102:5.2  This same purposive supremacy is shown in the evolution of mind ideation when primitive animal fear is transmuted into the constantly deepening reverence for God and into increasing awe of the universe. Primitive man had more religious fear than faith, and the supremacy of spirit potentials over mind actuals is demonstrated when this craven fear is translated into living faith in spiritual realities.

(1090.2) 99:4.6 During the psychologically unsettled times of the twentieth century, amid the economic upheavals, the moral crosscurrents, and the sociologic rip tides of the cyclonic transitions of a scientific era, thousands upon thousands of men and women have become humanly dislocated; they are anxious, restless, fearful, uncertain, and unsettled; as never before in the world’s history they need the consolation and stabilization of sound religion. In the face of unprecedented scientific achievement and mechanical development there is spiritual stagnation and philosophic chaos.


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Greetings Riktare! My Grannie always said....when you're worried you should be praying and when you're praying there is no need for worry.

8) :idea: :biggrin:


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katroofjebus wrote:
Riktare wrote:
But anxiety doesn't necessarily develop into worry. It is very important for us to develop the capability and habit of keeping anxiety as an impetus for positive change and never let it drive us into negative, non-constructive things like worry, compulsion, helplessness, ambivalence, etc., Isn't it?


I agree with this. Anxiety is part of the divine plan, "the anvil of necessity and the hammers of fear". It's initially put there to help our animal nature survive and evolve. Our perfecting divine nature is meant to direct and master its effects through purposive supremacy, or evolution of dominance, or transfer of identity. Fear operates the same way. "Fear of the Lord" is the beginning of wisdom. Problems from fear and anxiety arise only when people allow those emotions to enslave them, when they fail to be the master of them. This apparently is a huge problem in our current era of civilization.

(1124.1) 102:5.2  This same purposive supremacy is shown in the evolution of mind ideation when primitive animal fear is transmuted into the constantly deepening reverence for God and into increasing awe of the universe. Primitive man had more religious fear than faith, and the supremacy of spirit potentials over mind actuals is demonstrated when this craven fear is translated into living faith in spiritual realities.

(1090.2) 99:4.6 During the psychologically unsettled times of the twentieth century, amid the economic upheavals, the moral crosscurrents, and the sociologic rip tides of the cyclonic transitions of a scientific era, thousands upon thousands of men and women have become humanly dislocated; they are anxious, restless, fearful, uncertain, and unsettled; as never before in the world’s history they need the consolation and stabilization of sound religion. In the face of unprecedented scientific achievement and mechanical development there is spiritual stagnation and philosophic chaos.


So then...anxiety is not healthy or desirable for the one who is anxious, worried, and fearful... but the abandonment of anxiety is both healthy and desirable? Indeed, the very purpose of anxiety is its eventual abandonment in favor of faith and truth assurance. And then is assurance rational and desirable? Let us be clear and truthful here in our attempts to represent the teachings.

I believe this is the very beginning of this most recent wrangle.

:wink:


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Well Bradley, please consider that anxiety, like suffering, is not desirable not pleasurable and people do not ask for it. But if undealt with, anxiety accrues compound interest leading to stagnation. Anxiety is a spur that helps the human mechanism to either withdraw from or embrace universe reality. Harry Stack Sullivan' gospel is very edifying to me, in that it provides the vector for a man's modus operandus with regards to anxiety: one must be courageous to embrace the situation which may provoke anxiety. Ihaleakala Hew Len, the promulgator of the Christian Science "O'Hoponopono" began his career as a psychologist for a prison. His basic modus is one that probes the nature of the human mind, and finds the causational factors relating to anxiety within that one.

Wow you do not even consider the relationship between "adaptation" and "anxiety": how do you know that anxiety IS NOT "of the adjutant mind ministry"??? Maybe you don't consider because you are wrapped in a "Religion of Recitation" rather than a "Religion of Work" a la Jesus and Sullivan. Matthew 15:9 "in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’"

I read a recent study that the mammalian instinctual set associated with motherhood is closely akin to but more powerful than: addiction. [ https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 101212.php ] This is very interesting when you consider the billions of dollars that go to subsidy of treatment for the catchall field of "recovery" and "addiction". Many people who identify as addicts use this culture to finance their education and become therapists and ministers to ex-addicts. But in this process, we can see the validity of the addiction instinct in the mothering that may occur, a new community a new family that has separated from the woes of society in order to live clean or whatever. Look I know that I sound like an arrogant and perhaps insensitive person, however I posit the theory that if mothering addiction trumps chemical dependency addiction, then such professionals should not assume progress has occurred during a meeting. An AA Sponsor will look after a new member like a little brother or sister, but what about the Licensed Professionals? What assurance do they have that progress occuring after client walks out the door.

The point is that we subsidize an entire branch of the economy which supports ex-addicts mothering or nurthuring other newly ed-addicts. With this, there is indoctrination, and a limited view of reality. How far to therapists go in their affection/disdain for their clients? Does any of them go so far as to truly love people as brother and sister: if so, is this universal or limited to the community, conditional upon formal declaration and supplications?

Maybe it seems irrelevent; let me bring in my last point. We have in America such a high premium on literacy, that we have failed in many baser more fundamental lifeskills. One mentor of mine named Rotawa told I, "I did not teach my children to read until age 6." Here is a big cause for anxiety: we may have neglected the fundamentals?

I don't know. I learned mathematics before I learned to read. What I am interpolating with Donnie Darko movie was more of an exposition: that the morality of America has been ill and partly from the educational system. I do not glorify or admire that protagonist; however: I see him as the valedictorian of that satirical (though somewhat true) morality of his school-community. How can we help people like that? My friend who explained it committed suicide. Schools are said to produce scholars, but what if a school was like a soviet, a centre for nonindustrial production in the community. Hey I know you can peg me with that, but what I mean is sooner or later, those "gameboys" that young adults play with are going to become the instruction booklets, and so sooner rather than later we should affirm that basic farm-skills can be taught in the elementary school, and carpentry and other votives can be taught in the secondary: NOT the post-secondary.

If motherhood is the original instinct and therefore transcendant of addiction, what does this say about fatherhood? Is there any attachment in fatherhood? We dependant on Michael the Creator not only for our creature-life patterns, but for the spiritual patterns as well, that is a big attachment fromwith the Second Source and Center. However fatherhood maybe impersonal votive for creature manifest destiny, and it is harder to see if any attachment combined in the quality of such love. And yet sentient human beings are individually indwellt by fragments from the First Source.

Haha maybe Bradley is anxious about anxiety. But with regards to its validity, we know the prophet Amos as one "a voice crying in the night." If that is your child or not, how could you not be inclined to comfort that one? Anxiety and uncertainty, also a big reason why Michael came to Urantia. If he had not, his own anxieties about his own universe would not have been dealt with.

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This like the myth of the pearl, that which grates against the mouth of the oyster until it has become something beautiful. This one big purpose of Urantia Papers: to demystify the gospels. We no longer see Jesus as a hermit, neither the Apostles. In fact, many of the Apostles became Apostles because or when seeking labour. This forever eschews the vanity of prayer if only a coping mechanism. Let us address anxiety properly, and for every source of anxiety: adapt via Revelation of perscriptive labours, proper labours which will not only quell anxiety but conquer it.

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Stephen says above: "Anxiety and uncertainty, also a big reason why Michael came to Urantia. If he had not, his own anxieties about his own universe would not have been dealt with."

So...now Stephen claims anxieties for our Creator Son! Oh dear.

While Michael must also deal with uncertainty, I have my doubts about his inner turmoil related to worry, anxiety, fear, and doubts Stephen. I believe Michael has well proven his endless faith assurance in all things in all times and was on Urantia to demonstrate his absolute and unshakeable trust in God for his own outcomes and that of all of Nebadon.

Now, drilling a little deeper into Stephen's original claims regarding anxiety being healthy and the irrationality of assurance. The original quote: "Therefore I rule in my heart that anxiety and uncertainty, the things you describe which go against assurance, are quite healthy "if a man is capable of wresting disappointment from the jaws of defeat", and that the assurance you have found is something that is not completely rational."

Let us consider the difference between fear and anxiety and the effects of anxiety on the mind. And let us consider the irrationality of worry/anxiety as well. It has been shown, by kat and Stephen (and I agree) that anxiety is, or more accurately - can be - a motive for either action or prayer (a form of action) in response. But is it a good one? Or a reliable one? No its not.

To my understanding fear is specific and related to a situation or circumstance that causes caution and increases attention and increases certain brain and body chemistry in response until the situation is resolved and fear subsides. Anxiety and worry are far more general and tend to be a state of mind and being, an attitude toward the future generally...being fearful not about something in particular but to all things or most things or unspecified things - a perpetual feeling of doubt and even dread of the known and the unknown things to come in life.

This is how many people deal with the inherent uncertainties of life. Remember - uncertainty is not anxiety but it may cause anxiety, however it does not inherently cause anxiety as many mortals learn to embrace and welcome uncertainty and deal with it quite well.

Some synonyms for anxiety:
worry · concern · apprehension · apprehensiveness · consternation · uneasiness · unease · fearfulness · fear · disquiet · disquietude · perturbation · fretfulness · agitation · angst · nervousness · nerves · edginess · tension · tenseness · stress · misgiving · trepidation · foreboding · suspense · butterflies (in one's stomach) · the willies · the heebie-jeebies · the jitters · the shakes · the jumps · the yips · collywobbles · jitteriness · jim-jams · twitchiness · worriment


What is ANXIETY? definition of ANXIETY (Psychology Dictionary)

a mood state characterized by worry, apprehension, and somatic symptoms. Similar to the tension caused when an individual anticipates impending danger, catastrophe, or misfortune. The threat the person is responding to may be real or imagined or internal or external. It may be an identifiable (cued) situation or a more vague fear of the unknown (uncued). The body often mobilizes itself to meet the threat, whether this is real or imagined: Muscles become tense, breathing becomes faster, and the heart beats more rapidly. Anxiety may be distinguished from real fear both conceptually and physiologically, although the two terms are often mistakenly used interchangeably in everyday language. See also acute anxiety- anticipatory anxiety- generalized anxiety disorder- separation anxiety- social anxiety.

Me here: So IMO, anxiety and worry are often an underlying and often perpetual state of mind that destroys physical health and also is a significant obstacle to peace of mind and trust and patience and faith and security and assurance to the mind that suffers from it. And the fact is the worried mind is not a very good problem solver. It is a mind of avoidance behavior and procrastination I think. A mind looking for a way to not lose rather than to win in most situations.

A wise one once said (I think Twain but don't quote me...hahaha): Nine out of ten of the worst things that ever happened to me...never did happen....I just worried about them a lot!

That reminds me of the UB quote:

48:7.21 19. Anxiety must be abandoned. The disappointments hardest to bear are those which never come.

The disappointments hardest to bear are those which never came. Wow. We can worry so much about being disappointed to no end and for no valid purpose...just worry, worry, worry.

Like uncertainty, disappointment and failure are truly good things, important things, even vital to experiential wisdom. Remember we are disappointed only when we have a predetermined outcome expectation. The Apostles were disappointed in the mission and end of Jesus while that disappointment led to the betrayal by Judas whose disappointment was bitter indeed.

All of these elements are important lessons to consider - anxiety, uncertainty, disappointment, and especially assurance.

Assurance is that solution to all anxiety and fear and disappointment. And despite Stephen's contention that assurance is less than or not quite rational....it is the most rational and dependable of all influences discussed here so far....assurance is a result of faith and truth realized. It is the antidote to all negative emotions and gives us the courage to boldly live and face all uncertainties and eliminate all doubts for the eternal adventures to come! Or so I see it.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
What an odd set of questions.... Cannot we do both? So his teachings contradict his actions? Are his teachings NOT to be followed then? Really????!!!! Did he preach against anxiety and worry? Why yes he did! Frequently and eloquently. Did he suffer anxiety? Not so much, no...…….


Odd? Asking if I'm wrong in attempting to do what Jesus did is odd to you? I'm sincerely interested to know if anyone else thinks that question is odd. If Jesus "NEVER ONCE" attacked a person's errors, but instead selected and embellished the truth in what they said, you think it odd for anyone else to attempt to do the same thing? You think it odd to love your fellows in the same way as Jesus loves us all, the highest realization of the golden rule?

(1455.4) 132:0.4 And this was his method of instruction: Never once did he attack their errors or even mention the flaws in their teachings. In each case he would select the truth in what they taught and then proceed so to embellish and illuminate this truth in their minds that in a very short time this enhancement of the truth effectively crowded out the associated error.

(1950.3) 180:5.8 But the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule consists in the consciousness of the spirit of the truth of the enduring and living reality of such a divine declaration. The true cosmic meaning of this rule of universal relationship is revealed only in its spiritual realization, in the interpretation of the law of conduct by the spirit of the Son to the spirit of the Father that indwells the soul of mortal man. And when such spirit-led mortals realize the true meaning of this golden rule, they are filled to overflowing with the assurance of citizenship in a friendly universe, and their ideals of spirit reality are satisfied only when they love their fellows as Jesus loved us all, and that is the reality of the realization of the love of God.

So correct me if I'm wrong. You're saying, or implying, that the words printed in the Urantia Book are inaccurate and untrue? Perhaps it would be useful to look at the reference again:

(2088:5) 196:0.10 When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of the religious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did.

Just as you overlooked the word "IF" in Stephen's writing, you appear to have also missed the critical words "NOT SO MUCH". The author is not suggesting that Jesus' teaching should be ignored; he is suggesting that more emphasis should be placed on what Jesus did in regards to the religious life. Why do you suppose this is important? After all, it seems important to the author, important enough to point it out to us. It's a celestial tip, a clue to the religious life.

fanofVan wrote:
You found two quotes which illustrate Jesus having anxiety . . . . The worry for others is certainly a higher standard than fear for oneself and one's own welfare and outcomes. How very human...and noble.


Yes of course. That's what purposive supremacy is all about. The basic emotions of fear and anxiety are the same for every human being. Jesus was a human being. The meaning and value attached to those emotions changes with maturity, yet even when Jesus was most mature, the sovereign of a universe, his human mind still encountered anxiety which, as Stephen described, he transcended and utilized for a supreme purpose.

Fear and anxiety did not suddenly disappear in the mind of Jesus during his human life. Nor does ego suddenly disappear. All those things are meant to be transformed and mastered, which is what Stephen was saying, and what you attacked as being false.
And for your own edification and a further example of how human emotions can be mastered, a very enlightened individual of who you are a great fan, also suffered from anxiety, and for a long time. Reference:

(756.1) 67:2.6 For more than seven years this struggle continued. Not until every personality concerned had made a final decision, would or did the authorities of Edentia interfere or intervene. Not until then did Van and his loyal associates receive vindication and release from their prolonged anxiety and intolerable suspense.

Anyone in a human body, which includes Jesus and Van, will experience anxiety and fear. It's built into the genome from the original germ plasm and is put there for a divine reason as part of a divine plan, to which neither Jesus or Van were exempt. It's part of being human.

fanofVan wrote:
kat...you keep comparing yourself to Jesus and contrasting me to Jesus....I would caution you about such a practice as it smacks of spiritual pride....and condescension.


Thank you for the warning Bradly.


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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Riktare! My Grannie always said....when you're worried you should be praying and when you're praying there is no need for worry.


I think our Grannies would have gotten along quite well. :)


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I see the claws are still out kat...oh well....

Again you fail to apply context and audience to the "never" quote. He certainly corrected the apostles and disciples and priests and lawyers kat. Good grief. You are completely misrepresenting the UB....just to be "right"...but you're not.


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katroofjebus wrote:
(756.1) 67:2.6 For more than seven years this struggle continued. Not until every personality concerned had made a final decision, would or did the authorities of Edentia interfere or intervene. Not until then did Van and his loyal associates receive vindication and release from their


Michael/Jesus is an existential being. How can you compare the anxiety or worry (of others) that he shepherded to that of a materially-original being such as I? This quotation reveals to me, the fatherly affection that Jesus gave to those of Urantia who struggled, experienced isolation, and pleaded to God for something better, from this dark sphere Urantia. This is the tradition of living beings in the advancement of the Supreme, people who themselves experienced a higher degree of uncertainty due to their trusts. Michael's sensitive heart cannot impede the prayers that "go directly to the father", but partial minute concerns are in fact dealt with by the lower administrations, or else deemed irrelevent. For a long time the Sangiks and Andons could directly appeal to Cali & Dali, whereby our world been blessed by the shattering of disilluionment of perfect huniverse harmony.

Bradley speak 99% of the truth, but too afraid of the whole truth to accept anxiety as a real and necessary part of ascencion. Even if HE has no personal anxiety, yet tremendously affectionate and sympathetic unto the challenges, plights, and conditions of others.

The problem is that Bradley has already made his decisions. These morontial mind-realities might not be apparent to him. He thinks of Van as a stalwart hero who never sinned. He does not regard for the patience of Michael with regard to the overall administration of Nebadon. It is very "black & white", "0" or "1", "YES" or "NO" without the allowance for extrapolation of maximum potential. There are extra considerations he need to have in order to even begin to understand or sympathise. With regards for the maximum potential of every universe possibility, choice is a very important ordeal for mankind individuals. He see Declaration of Independence as breech of loyalty, and has not fully considered the wisdom in Michael's patience. Maybe isolation is like rebirth, to be enshrowded, protected, "swaddled": something is wrong but we try to make the best of it. Like the movie "Sparticus" we see how something that is like a good idea at the time, something right for one person not good for everyone. "I AM SPARTICUS" i.e. "I, too, am (or will become) like the Most High", you can see that Cali & Dali were not mature enough to accept it. "If I am lifted up, then I will draw all men to me." "If a seed dies in darkness, then it can be reborn." Well, you Bradley are like a fatted calf or an embibed goose, so overblown with the riches of truth that you are not able to serve or supplicate.

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:biggrin:

Stephen...I don't think you know me well enough to keep measuring my spiritual status or religious experience or record of service or motivation. Please stop it. Thank you.

I am a drunk goose who cannot pray?

Are you defending Lucifer and his manifesto again Stephen? Sounds like it.

Bradly


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My dog resolves his anxiety so efficiently. See rabbit, chase, kill and eat - get exercise, sharpen hunting skills, learn rabbit tricks as a bonus.
Little or no personality to twist things around.
Would it be an additional bonus if he could communicate the experience as an idea or ideal?
Would this help him grow?
Observing him helps me.


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