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"Man does not have unfettered free will" hm "Man has fettered free will"?... How can man be both fettered and free? When others attain Paradise, they will know how patience & eternal servitude liberates them from the fetters of material constraint, I withhold that they make any real choices until they reach such status as Sons of God. Amen.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I withhold that they make any real choices until they reach such status as Sons of God. Amen.


How are you defining a "real choice", and how are you defining "Sons of God"?


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I will provide no further elaboration. I do feel inclined to say, that while I may still await any promulgation of the True Verdict of the Ancients of Days, that I have witnessed the emergence of the Divine Minister "as a Person". And I promise to guide Him/Her, to find the true Paradise as an experiencial Being. And I have great pity on the agony of our Mother, during the trials of the Lucifer Rebellion, and I can also say with real settled peace, that I have already heard the means by which this trial "is/has been decided". But as in any mothers who suffers during the pains of birth, you may recognise how He has been born. I say of the Divine Minister of Nebadon: "unto Us a Child has been born."

"real decision": one that you can make after having attained Paradise
"Challenge of a Rival": but what if your Rival is the Eternal Son.

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And there you go. :(


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Last edited by fanofVan on Wed May 29, 2019 1:58 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
"real decision": one that you can make after having attained Paradise


Ok, I think I see what you mean. Real decisions are the most spiritual decisions. But what about Sons of God?


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fanofVan wrote:
Mortals who pity Deity. Can anyone demonstrate hubris more?


Bradly, you're attacking Stephen again.

I'm mortal and I pity Deity. I cry uncontrollably when I think of the horrific death Michael had to endure.


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Steven,

When you use the word "real" and equate it to that which we can only truly experience when we attain Paradise, are you maybe overlooking the fact that reality, though partially experienced, is still "real". Every real experience, partial though it may be, contains the value of the source (God) which makes it equally important in the business of spiritual growth. A decision to accept the reality of the value of God may afford one a real though partial perception of Infinity and Eternity without impinging on the necessity of such a one to attain the entirety of the potential offered by God.

Read the following as a positive explanation of this process rather than focusing on the admonition against conversion seeking.
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100:5.1 The world is filled with lost souls, not lost in the theologic sense but lost in the directional meaning, wandering about in confusion among the isms and cults of a frustrated philosophic era. Too few have learned how to install a philosophy of living in the place of religious authority. (The symbols of socialized religion are not to be despised as channels of growth, albeit the river bed is not the river.)

100:5.2 The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship.

100:5.3 It should be made clear that professions of loyalty to the supreme ideals—the psychic, emotional, and spiritual awareness of God-consciousness—may be a natural and gradual growth or may sometimes be experienced at certain junctures, as in a crisis. The Apostle Paul experienced just such a sudden and spectacular conversion that eventful day on the Damascus road. Gautama Siddhartha had a similar experience the night he sat alone and sought to penetrate the mystery of final truth. Many others have had like experiences, and many true believers have progressed in the spirit without sudden conversion.

100:5.4 Most of the spectacular phenomena associated with so-called religious conversions are entirely psychologic in nature, but now and then there do occur experiences which are also spiritual in origin. When the mental mobilization is absolutely total on any level of the psychic upreach toward spirit attainment, when there exists perfection of the human motivation of loyalties to the divine idea, then there very often occurs a sudden down-grasp of the indwelling spirit to synchronize with the concentrated and consecrated purpose of the superconscious mind of the believing mortal. And it is such experiences of unified intellectual and spiritual phenomena that constitute the conversion which consists in factors over and above purely psychologic involvement.

100:5.5 But emotion alone is a false conversion; one must have faith as well as feeling. To the extent that such psychic mobilization is partial, and in so far as such human-loyalty motivation is incomplete, to that extent will the experience of conversion be a blended intellectual, emotional, and spiritual reality.

100:5.6 If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster., The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

100:5.7 In contrast with conversion-seeking, the better approach to the morontia zones of possible contact with the Thought Adjuster would be through living faith and sincere worship, wholehearted and unselfish prayer.Altogether too much of the uprush of the memories of the unconscious levels of the human mind has been mistaken for divine revelations and spirit leadings.


So, we are advised against conversion "seeking" but certainly not against embracing and experiencing it when it happens. Allowing God to guide us must not include our precautions against success merely because we have no history of personally administering such.

Jim


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So, what I am attempting to say is that the process of discovering the true reality of God is similar to the description of conversion but on a less than complete personal issue. But, the experiential value may be of the same quality even though limited in scope, perceptually.


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Sons of God, as Simon Peter declared.

133:5.8 "There is unity in the cosmic universe if you could only discern its workings in actuality. The real universe is friendly to every child of the eternal God."

i.e.: "Real choices can be made when/after you have found the real universe" (my interpretation: the real universe = Paradise, the universe-center) The faith of the human individual, an individualising experiencial Holy Spirit, accrues and edifies until having been created a final and perfect value for such a spirit, a son of man, and in the life that you will has thereafter, you would be free to choose any outcome: to become the father of worlds in the outer universes, to discover the life that the Universal Father has in the border of the ultimate and absolute, and to make agreements with others in a manner that shapes not only the outcome of the universe but the life of the universe therein: choose any kind of servitude you wish unto the Unversal Father. I have not already explained this, but at least now I have clarified my reasoning.

Am I not a Jurist even after you have already explained my qualifications and potential "trickery" to others, as "one who would be a good jurist". I have already stated that humans must find Paradise before making real choices. You have told me again and again, that I do make choices now and perhaps every day. But what is a verdict, if not final. I have given you my verdict, but a verdict to me, is not nearly as much as a real choice, or what I would consider that.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I will provide no further elaboration. I do feel inclined to say, that while I may still await any promulgation of the True Verdict of the Ancients of Days, that I have witnessed the emergence of the Divine Minister "as a Person". And I promise to guide Him/Her, to find the true Paradise as an experiencial Being. And I have great pity on the agony of our Mother, during the trials of the Lucifer Rebellion, and I can also say with real settled peace, that I have already heard the means by which this trial "is/has been decided". But as in any mothers who suffers during the pains of birth, you may recognise how He has been born. I say of the Divine Minister of Nebadon: "unto Us a Child has been born."

"real decision": one that you can make after having attained Paradise
"Challenge of a Rival": but what if your Rival is the Eternal Son.


You will guide our Divine Minister to Paradise??!! You pity rhe co-creator of Nebadon? And kat pities Michael? And you have been told the outcome of the rebellion's adjudication as a jurist in its verdict. And how do you know this? By what power do you make such bold and audacious proclamations of personal authority and knowledge?

I thought you were concerned about your survival? Now you choose such a demonstration of presumption and self importance. You presume much to and for yourself it appears. Such as the ability to lead others to Paradise, including the creator of Nebadon. Remarkable. And kat supports your claims. Incredible.

Egotism and self importance is not faith. You deny assurance and free will and then proclaim such power and knowledge? You are no mere tadpole obviously. Oh dear. So you speak for the gods and of the gods and will guide the gods...and speak to them as well?

You claim you originate from Paradise, are a jurist and abdicator of universe affairs, and will guide our local universe creator back to Paradise and have declared for years here that Lucifer was doing God's will by rebellion and his Manifesto denying God's existence and proclaiming Gabriel is guilty instead...among other things which defy and contradict the Papers. Sounds like self deification. Pray tell us of this child that is born.

All of this at a study group of the Revelation. :shock: :?


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu May 30, 2019 6:42 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Hi katroofjebus,

I'm still very interested in your thoughts on section 40:5. This seems to cover all options for human survival, and each involves the activity of an Adjuster (40:5.4):
UB 40:5.4 wrote:
"Spirit identification constitutes the secret of personal survival and determines the destiny of spiritual ascension. And since the Thought Adjusters are the only spirits of fusion potential to be identified with man during the life in the flesh, the mortals of time and space are primarily classified in accordance with their relation to these divine gifts, the indwelling Mystery Monitors. This classification is as follows:

1. Mortals of the transient or experiential Adjuster sojourn.
2. Mortals of the non-Adjuster-fusion types.
3. Mortals of Adjuster-fusion potential."
(40:5.4)


Also, thanks for mentioning the "probationary nurseries". The infants and young children who spend time as material beings in this remedial opportunity are discussed in more detail in paragraphs 49:6:11-14.

katroofjebus wrote:
nnunn wrote:
Can you think of any place in the papers where the authors mention a soul being brought into existence ("parented") by the Holy Spirit, and surviving?

I think I already answered that. There are children with undeveloped souls who survive. How can an undeveloped soul survive without an associated immortal spirit endowment?

Notice that all such children either (1) have adjusters, or (2) ... "are reckoned as still attached to their parents.". So a question remains: do those infants "who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters" actually have their own morontia soul? If so, why are they salvaged as material beings in the system probationary nursery? And what do the authors mean by "still attached to their parents." ?!

UB 49:6.12 wrote:
"Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents." (49:6.11,12)

Regarding "an associated immortal spirit endowment", that's the reason I keep nudging you to consider section 40:5 ...

PS: Would you like to take this slightly technical side-issue to a new thread?
Nigel


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What?! I did not "been told" the outcome of such Legal Case. I have "rendered my verdict", as one a human individual, unto the Universal Father of Paradise. I fashioned and produced such verdict, rather than received from anyone else. And I arrogantly say, even though I not hear "the Broadcast that Gabriel v. Lucifer has reached a final outcome," I hear the Ancients of Days murmuring to themselves and the Quorum they have and oh wow they must have reached a conclusion to these trying circumstances.


Reality of Paradise. Even though Central Universe is existentially real, being fully a unfoldment of the possibilities of Paradise, in relative to the primary triune relationship of the Original Three Source and Centers. That is the tripartate matter.

The ultimaton, the dual matter, contains the marriage-tension between existing and existential complements, between the spiritual reality of the central universe, and the material reality of the grand universe. Those are the two forces represented in the nucleus of every ultimaton. "The Reality of Spirit", on Paradise, is "reflected" by the ultimate experience of the grand universe, into every particle in this manner. "The Life of" an ultimaton, is experienced in the same way by the Universal Father, the same way that the Eternal Son of Paradise experiences "the Life of " the Spiritual Community consisting at Paradise. And then the primordial forces can be "drawn from", the Infinite Spirit's absolute dependence on the Universal Father for the energy and drive to have created every Form existing in the Central Universe, and Eternal Son to know how one may live as on Paradise. And so these existential Spiritual Relativities could be "projected " into an existing force-opposition, to form the basis of distinct components of matter. All very real; sorry about that.

I know that the material universe is unfathomably deep: because the ultimaton comprise the outer universe, and just as the Holy Spirit is "the spirit of my spirit", so too must it be true though almost imperceptibly, "the material universe is the spirit of the Universal Father," and so the reality of my existence, as the Third Person of the Third Source and Center, must be found in the manner that I may tend the land I have been given. Now that I realise this, I respect Urantia's exquisite place in the seventh universe, and do my best to preserve the creature-patterns I will encounter here.

And you are saying the truth Nigel, no longer can sacrifices be seen as Priest mercifully killing an animal: people are literally handing over materially a piece of our collective soul, the Holy Spirit, back to Jerusem with unwise sacrifice of their own foetus ("materially"). Of course you will have to say that what are adults actually doing in their socialisation activities that there are such preposturous waste of fortunes that I would hold for Urantia rather than Jerusem. Well but you must rest in the assurance that Jesus returned Joseph and Amos to a higher jurisdiction, Amos "one who would have been worthy to have received the Thought Adjuster," who signifies to us all the life of the Holy Spirit, an unindividualised Person from the House of Joseph of Jerusalem, who nevertheless possessed the full potential to become like the Universal Father.

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Sorry but this is the weirdest bunch of crap I’ve encountered since my early days of exposure to people who used psychedelics and gave me the useless task of sorting through their ramblings which to them was a valid interpretation of the Urantia book.
My intellect is likely much lower than most around here but none of this makes any sense to me.
Reading through this thread was painful and a wasted effort.


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What?! I did not "been told" the outcome of such Legal Case. I have "rendered my verdict", as one a human individual, unto the Universal Father of Paradise. I fashioned and produced such verdict, rather than received from anyone else. And I arrogantly say, even though I not hear "the Broadcast that Gabriel v. Lucifer has reached a final outcome," I hear the Ancients of Days murmuring to themselves and the Quorum they have and oh wow they must have reached a conclusion to these trying circumstances.


Reality of Paradise. Even though Central Universe is existentially real, being fully a unfoldment of the possibilities of Paradise, in relative to the primary triune relationship of the Original Three Source and Centers. That is the tripartate matter.

The ultimaton, the dual matter, contains the marriage-tension between existing and existential complements, between the spiritual reality of the central universe, and the material reality of the grand universe. Those are the two forces represented in the nucleus of every ultimaton. "The Reality of Spirit", on Paradise, is "reflected" by the ultimate experience of the grand universe, into every particle in this manner. "The Life of" an ultimaton, is experienced in the same way by the Universal Father, the same way that the Eternal Son of Paradise experiences "the Life of " the Spiritual Community consisting at Paradise. And then the primordial forces can be "drawn from", the Infinite Spirit's absolute dependence on the Universal Father for the energy and drive to have created every Form existing in the Central Universe, and Eternal Son to know how one may live as on Paradise. And so these existential Spiritual Relativities could be "projected " into an existing force-opposition, to form the basis of distinct components of matter. All very real; sorry about that.

I know that the material universe is unfathomably deep: because the ultimaton comprise the outer universe, and just as the Holy Spirit is "the spirit of my spirit", so too must it be true though almost imperceptibly, "the material universe is the spirit of the Universal Father," and so the reality of my existence, as the Third Person of the Third Source and Center, must be found in the manner that I may tend the land I have been given. Now that I realise this, I respect Urantia's exquisite place in the seventh universe, and do my best to preserve the creature-patterns I will encounter here.

And you are saying the truth Nigel, no longer can sacrifices be seen as Priest mercifully killing an animal: people are literally handing over materially a piece of our collective soul, the Holy Spirit, back to Jerusem with unwise sacrifice of their own foetus ("materially"). Of course you will have to say that what are adults actually doing in their socialisation activities that there are such preposturous waste of fortunes that I would hold for Urantia rather than Jerusem. Well but you must rest in the assurance that Jesus returned Joseph and Amos to a higher jurisdiction, Amos "one who would have been worthy to have received the Thought Adjuster," who signifies to us all the life of the Holy Spirit, an unindividualised Person from the House of Joseph of Jerusalem, who nevertheless possessed the full potential to become like the Universal Father.


SEla_Kelly, This thread is becoming too strange. Over the span of 20+ pages, various members have done their best to fellowship you, to explain to you, to be kind to you...and the thread has been allowed to continue because of those efforts. However, at this point, I feel that the original topic has been pretty thoroughly exhausted, and now is becoming a distraction to others.

I am not sure why you wish to continue to provide these long, rambling posts. Over this thread, as mentioned, several members have gleaned a thought here, a sentence there, and have sincerely tried to engage you on those. But you insist on coming back with more, and seem unable to reach any agreement with others. Moreover, your posts are becoming even more disjointed and incomprehensible.

For this reason, I am locking this thread today. I advise you to read back over the thread yourself...try to see where you might gain some deeper understanding of The Urantia Book through the efforts of those who have really done their best to be of help to you. And in future, please try to be a good learner, and take to heart the love and sincere concern of your fellows here. You are welcome here, but your apparent inability - or unwillingness - to really learn is becoming painfully obvious. I really don't know whether it is inability or unwillingness (only you can honestly answer that), but in any event, this thread stops here.

I invite others to start new topics as they see fit, but SEla_Kelly, you are on notice that this kind of long, drawn-out thread will not be permitted again. It takes away from others, who ARE doing their best to discuss the Revelation. Again, I advise you to look over these past pages, and appreciate how much people have tried to be of service to you...you must come (at least) half-way in order to make the discussions fruitful.

the management


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