Switch to full style
An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
Post a reply

Re: Quanta

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:20 pm +0000

So what are you saying that Paradise is not actually an intrinsic component of an ultimaton?

if paradise is not part of creation....has no location in time or space...is stationary and singular uniquely and therefore paradise can't be at the center of every ultimaton then yeah that's what i'm saying. paradise has dimensions too despite your theory and it's not infinitely small...its the largest thing there is in all of reality.

ultimatons are composed of emergent energy (ultimata), "originally neutral but consequent upon further metamorphosis will exhibit the so-called negative and positive qualities"

Re: Quanta

Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:06 am +0000

Let’s look at some relevant passages referencing “nucleus” for clarification:

42:1.2 (467.4) Matter—energy—for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise. The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.

15:3.1 (167.17) Practically all of the starry realms visible to the naked eye on Urantia belong to the seventh section of the grand universe, the superuniverse of Orvonton. The vast Milky Way starry system represents the central nucleus of Orvonton, being largely beyond the borders of your local universe.

106:2.1 (1164.4) As God the Sevenfold functionally co-ordinates finite evolution, so does the Supreme Being eventually synthesize destiny attainment. The Supreme Being is the deity culmination of grand universe evolution—physical evolution around a spirit nucleus and eventual dominance of the spirit nucleus over the encircling and whirling domains of physical evolution.

93:2.4 (1015.4) Within a few years Melchizedek had gathered around himself a group of pupils, disciples, and believers who formed the nucleus of the later community of Salem.

84:1.8 (932.5) While the mother-child association is neither marriage nor home, it was the nucleus from which both sprang.

106:2.1 (1164.4) As God the Sevenfold functionally co-ordinates finite evolution, so does the Supreme Being eventually synthesize destiny attainment. The Supreme Being is the deity culmination of grand universe evolution—physical evolution around a spirit nucleus and eventual dominance of the spirit nucleus over the encircling and whirling domains of physical evolution.

It seems there is no definite association of the word “nucleus” with a physical “center”. In fact, one invocation of “nucleus” is modified by the addition of the word “central” which would be redundant if that were the case. So of the word nucleus it appears that the revelators mean focus, core, root, essence, seed or even pattern or template. A physical point in space is not implied by the word’s use.

Re: Quanta

Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:47 am +0000

The reason why I believe the 42:1.2 description of the ultimaton does not merely indicate that utimatons are constrained to follow the circular motion induced by Paradise is that all matter and energy are constrained to do so. That interpretation reduces the 42:1.2 description to a trivial and redundant statement. There is surely something more the revelators are hinting at in 42:1.2 that is unique to the ultimaton.

I make no claims about what that is and see no solid basis to base any claim on. But we may and should consider some possibilities about what specifically the revelators are alluding to in 42:1.2.

Re: Quanta

Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:39 am +0000

well the statement there about all matter and energy being derived from and dependent on Paradise is redundant to those who've read the preceding information on paradise gravity as it's been expounded upon a couple places already at that point. and the next bit about ultimatons being the first measurable form of energy isn't redundant or trivial, it's a good starting point for the information that follows.

Re: Quanta

Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:53 am +0000

11:8.6 (126.2) 2. Gravity Stages (Energy). This modification of the force-charge of space is produced by the action of the Paradise force organizers. It signalizes the appearance of energy systems responsive to the pull of Paradise gravity. This emergent energy is originally neutral but consequent upon further metamorphosis will exhibit the so-called negative and positive qualities. We designate these stages ultimata.

That's a very useful and interesting paragraph, by the way. When I suggest that polarity is more primitive than charge I mean charge as human physicists understand it. The revelators often talk about space charge which I think has more to do with the mighty-tensioned-ness and energy content of pre-ultimata stages of space potency than electric charge.

Re: Quanta

Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:09 am +0000

yeah the force-charge of space is a feature of pre-gravity/pre-electrical charge segregata too, nothing to do with electric charge. polarity, on the cosmic scale i dunno, but the disk of inhabited pervaded space formed by paradise gravity is above and below other features

Re: Superchemical storage battery

Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:14 am +0000

Riktare wrote: "We're getting into some really nice things here" [...] "To understand better, we might remember that the revelators tell us that electricity is not a primary form of energy but a secondary one."

Precisely! As we know, electricity requires electric charge, and electric charge requires electron-level structures (i.e. "fermions"). Also, let's keep in mind that without such electrically charged, electron-level structures, there can be no electromagnetic photons...

The implication is that ultimatons exist at a MUCH lower level (of size and structure) than fermions. In other words, fermions (and their photons), when compared with ultimatons, are HUGE.

To get a feel for this -- comparing the relative size (spatial extent) of ultimatons to electrons -- I imagine an empty ellipsoidal volume the size of a football stadium. Within this volume, distribute 100 tiny pins, each say 2 cm long, each spinning really, really fast.

Now, switch on a tendency between those tiny pins to "huddle", and then to cluster.

In my working model, that vast, football-field-sized volume represents an unassociated ("free") electron; and each of those tiny spinning pins represents a mature ultimaton.

It's this vast emptiness of electron-level structures that allows matter (e.g. neutron stars) to shrink all the way down to "dark islands" before reaching that "limiting and critical explosion point of ultimatonic condensation", and exploding,
UB 458.6, 41:3.6 wrote: "[...]. This process of cooling and contraction may continue to the limiting and critical explosion point of ultimatonic condensation." (458.6, 41:3.6)

Getting back to that famous double entendre (the ultimaton having Paradise as its nucleus), in context I think it refers to the way the content of space drifts around Paradise along those elliptical "space paths of lessened resistance to motion",
UB 125.2, 11:7.8 wrote:"A space level thus functions as an elliptical region of motion surrounded on all sides by relative motionlessness. Such relationships of motion and quiescence constitute a curved space path of lessened resistance to motion which is universally followed by cosmic force and emergent energy as they circle forever around the Isle of Paradise." (125.2, 11:7.8)

In the above paragraph, notice the way emergent energy (ultimata, 470.4, 42:2.13) orbits the Paradise nucleus of the master universe along those "curved space paths"?

UB 129.9, 12:1.11 wrote:"The Paradise-Havona System, the eternal universe encircling the eternal Isle, constitutes the perfect and eternal nucleus of the master universe." (129.9, 12:1.11)

UB 476.5, 42:6.3 wrote:"Ultimatons function by mutual attraction, responding only to the circular Paradise-gravity pull. Without linear-gravity response they are thus held in the universal space drift." (476.5, 42:6.3)

The secondary idea (double entendre), encouraged by mathematician Phil Calabrese, is that some connection to the "absolutum" of the Isle of Paradise can be found inside each ultimaton. Of course, this seems to suggest the sort of n-dimensional topological connections that may require morontia mathematics to model.

But then again... while working on this "Exploding Dark Islands" video, a third alternative (triple entendre ?) came to mind: when you squeeze all the space out of absoluta (space potency), what'cha got? Absolutum?

UB 120.1, 11:2.9 wrote: "This literal substance of Paradise is a homogeneous organization of space potency not to be found elsewhere in all the wide universe of universes. It has received many names in different universes, and the Melchizedeks of Nebadon long since named it absolutum." (120.1, 11:2.9)

UB 1149.13, 104:4.28 wrote: "[...] The endless possibilities of the Unqualified Absolute are centered around the absolutum of the Isle of Paradise, [...]" (1149.13, 104:4.28)

Point being, when Associate Transcendental Master Force Organizers organize the quantization of ultimatons from segregata, since the Primary Eventuated Master Force Organizers condensed this same segregata from raw space potency (absoluta), this "condensate of a condensate" may turn out to be the very same stuff from which the Isle is made: absolutum.

[P.S.] that is to say, the mature ultimaton, as a quantized vortex of angular momentum in (not-quite-finite) segregata, may serve so well as the quantum of mass (responsiveness to absolute gravity) because it is "absolutely ultimately" dense ?

In which case we might even say that the absoluta pervading the master universe has absolutum as its nucleus :?


Re: Quanta

Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 am +0000

i think the connection between all absoluta (space potency) is tension in the everywhere presence of the Unqualified Absolute:

11:8.9 (126.5) Paradise is the absolute source and the eternal focal point of all energy-matter in the universe of universes. The Unqualified Absolute is the revealer, regulator, and repository of that which has Paradise as its source and origin. The universal presence of the Unqualified Absolute seems to be equivalent to the concept of a potential infinity of gravity extension, an elastic tension of Paradise presence. This concept aids us in grasping the fact that everything is drawn inward towards Paradise. The illustration is crude but nonetheless helpful. It also explains why gravity always acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to the mass, a phenomenon indicative of the differential dimensions of Paradise and the surrounding creations.

42:2.3 (469.3) 1. Space potency. This is the unquestioned free space presence of the Unqualified Absolute. The extension of this concept connotes the universe force-space potential inherent in the functional totality of the Unqualified Absolute, while the intension of this concept implies the totality of cosmic reality—universes—which emanated eternitywise from the never-beginning, never-ending, never-moving, never-changing Isle of Paradise.

42:2.4 (469.4) The phenomena indigenous to the nether side of Paradise probably embrace three zones of absolute force presence and performance: the fulcral zone of the Unqualified Absolute, the zone of the Isle of Paradise itself, and the intervening zone of certain unidentified equalizing and compensating agencies or functions. These triconcentric zones are the centrum of the Paradise cycle of cosmic reality.

42:2.5 (469.5) Space potency is a prereality; it is the domain of the Unqualified Absolute and is responsive only to the personal grasp of the Universal Father, notwithstanding that it is seemingly modifiable by the presence of the Primary Master Force Organizers.

and the universal paradise gravity connection is a function of Associate Transcendental Master Force Organizers

This secondary or gravity energy is the product of the energy elaboration resulting from the pressure-presence and the tension-trends set up by the Associate Transcendental Master Force Organizers. In response to the work of these force manipulators, space-energy rapidly passes from the puissant to the gravity stage, thus becoming directly responsive to the circular grasp of Paradise (absolute) gravity while disclosing a certain potential for sensitivity to the linear-gravity pull inherent in the soon appearing material mass of the electronic and the postelectronic stages of energy and matter.

Re: Quanta

Mon Mar 04, 2019 3:05 am +0000

Hi Makalu,

Thanks for pointing us to the Unqualified Absolute as "an elastic tension of Paradise presence" (11:8.9) in the context of the "extension / intension" (42:2.3) of the concept of "space potency".
Any idea what this means?! :biggrin:

Thinking about quanta, quantization and gravity:

Given the Urantia Book's distinction between absolute and linear gravity ("linear gravity is an interactive phenomenon..." 12:3.8) got me wondering about quantization and interaction.

To get the ball rolling, let's say the quantization of <segregata> into discrete <ultimatons> defines the quanta of response to absolute ("Paradise") gravity.

Once those quanta have {huddled, thence clustered} into primitive {spinors, thence fermions}, such structures of clusters of huddling ultimatons must begin interacting with that same primordial force charge (segregata) out of which they were condensed.

If we then take a leap and identify {primordial force charge} with primitive {weak hypercharge}, have we put ultimatonic foundations under the Higgs mechanism, and quantized gravity along the way?


Re: Quanta

Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:22 am +0000

hmm i dunno Nigel, is gravity an energy that can be quantized? seems easier for me personally to grasp what gravity isn't than what it is, sorry. the papers describe it as a presence independent of time and space i think? even the idea of a gravitational field seems not quite right to me...as if it's something electromechanical.

final answer: i dont know...will contemplate it further

Re: Quanta

Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:16 am +0000

Gravity is the all-powerful grasp of the physical presence of Paradise. Gravity is the omnipotent strand on which are strung the gleaming stars, blazing suns, and whirling spheres which constitute the universal physical adornment of the eternal God, who is all things, fills all things, and in whom all things consist.

i'm thinking maybe the quality of omnipotence isn't governed/regulated by quanta. what do you think?

Re: Quanta

Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:38 pm +0000

Hi Makalu,
Makalu wrote: "i'm thinking maybe the quality of omnipotence isn't governed/regulated by quanta."

Indeed. Thus I'm thinking it's measurable gravitational response that gets quantized?

Which would explain why ultimata, not segregata, is the first form of energy that shows a measurable response to Paradise... but only after it gets quantized as ultimatons.

Regarding "non-measureable" and "non-quantized" material response to Paradise, given the pervasiveness ("omnipresence") of space potency (at least throughout the master universe), any response of this absoluta to the absolutum of Paradise may be effectively homogeneous, like a level of energy existence we can define as a "zero point", against which to compare relative energy densities... ?

But when we add time to the mix, things get complicated. Down here in the finite, our physics needs to accommodate a time-dependent "rate of expression" of energy... arrggghhh :?


Re: Quanta

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:12 am +0000

Which would explain why ultimata, not segregata, is the first form of energy that shows a measurable response to Paradise... but only after it gets quantized as ultimatons.

Could you refresh my memory? Do ultimatons appear only by the direct action of the Force Organizers or can they form spontaneously with no supervision by a personal entity?

It would seem that some force must provide the additional (and very significant) rotational energy needed to segregate and individualize them from the very large scale rotational motion of the stellar nebulae.

Re: Quanta

Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:22 am +0000

not clear to me where a zero point energy would stand relative to the puissant energy transmuting from the exclusive grasp of the Unqualified Absolute to the gravity grasp of the Isle of Paradise? between the level of segregata and ultimata that is

a. Puissant energy. This is the powerful directional, mass-movemented, mighty-tensioned, and forcible-reacting energy—gigantic energy systems set in motion by the activities of the primary force organizers. This primary or puissant energy is not at first definitely responsive to the Paradise-gravity pull though
probably yielding an aggregate-mass or spacedirectional response to the collective group of absolute influences operative from the nether side of Paradise. When energy emerges to the level of initial response to the circular and absolute-gravity grasp of Paradise, the primary force organizers give way to the functioning of their secondary associates.

so, if i get it correctly, we can't measure paradise gravity directly but we can measure it's effect in stuff labeled dark energy or the cosmic constant? we measure linear gravity in the realm of gravita above ultimata only? would discovering the ultimaton yield paradise gravity measurements too?

Re: Quanta

Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:46 am +0000

Is material gravity not related to the Omnipotence of Deity? I know it sounds like a stretch, but perhaps what about experiencial unification on the ultimate level. This indicates that when we deal with finite forces of electrons, "down here", we work with the assumption that the patterns of physics on the material phase or "plane", that maybe this all is an expression of perfected harmony, in a form of matter we might consider as being (the dynamic of) energy/matter/force in near its final phase of (what is the word? finite? crystalline?) expression. Then there is another concept, "spiritual gravity" (UB 7:1.2 the antigravity forces of the Third Source and Center.)which I could not poke a maple tap to taste or explain, which indicates also however (at least an ability) a "repulsionary" or "anti-gravitational" force, against the ordinary type of material gravity.
Post a reply