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An open forum for general discussions of a spiritual nature where guests and readers entertain the teachings of The Urantia Book.
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praying in tongues

Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:23 am +0000

I am sure this topic has come up before, but I was just reading this passage:

144:2.2 (1618.6) “Prayer is entirely a personal and spontaneous expression of the attitude of the soul toward the spirit; prayer should be the communion of sonship and the expression of fellowship. Prayer, when indited by the spirit, leads to co-operative spiritual progress. The ideal prayer is a form of spiritual communion which leads to intelligent worship. True praying is the sincere attitude of reaching heavenward for the attainment of your ideals.

144:2.3 (1619.1) “Prayer is the breath of the soul and should lead you to be persistent in your attempt to ascertain the Father’s will..."

I pray in tongues, not often, it is not a conscious action such as "Oh I think I'll pray in tongues now" it just happens, usually when I am anguished or burdened about something. And for me at least it is edifying, I feel like I have gotten through, and even if I don't know what I am saying, I know that my message got through in the way it was supposed to.

I have been in Pentecostal churches where they practically make it a requirement for proof of salvation, and oddly enough I never "spoke in tongues" in those churches, no matter how hard I tried, ha ha. I have witnessed and heard about some pretty crazy antics performed by people who were supposedly "full of the Holy Ghost", barking like a dog on all fours, people getting "slain in the Spirit" (a favorite of old school evangelists) and of course "coming out of the water speaking in tongues as the Scripture saith" and all sorts of other doctrinal type stuff.

So I am not advocating speaking in tongues, I believe it is personal, as are all things pertaining to our relationship with Jesus, or the Father if you prefer. I am asking for counsel here that I might better explain to folks who ask me about it.

Thanks!

Re: praying in tongues

Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:23 pm +0000

The UB tells us that it is not the words we use while praying that is important, it is our intent. Sincere prayer that is selfless and seeking to bring one closer to God, is always effective, regardless of what words are used.

That said, if I were someone who prayed in tongues, I probably wouldn't say anything about it to anyone (that way, no one would ask about it).

Re: praying in tongues

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:21 pm +0000

Thanks

Re: praying in tongues

Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:21 pm +0000

Thanks

Re: praying in tongues

Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:04 am +0000

"Spontaneous Expression" versus "praying in tongues". Hello you are asking for some type of clarification herein.

Spontaneous Expression is therefore a civil liberty. Prayer is being described as "spontaneous expression". I will describe music also as being a spontaneous (expression), which does not imply prayer. Within both the institutionalisation of music, the institutionalisation of recitation fact/fiction: there is both degradation of prayer quality and music quality. If music needs to be (what does that mean colloquy) "played" "heard", does this correspond not to actual music but to the intellectual hungers of the human individual. The human individual is not constrained by the desire to "hear that one song again". Radio stations become controlled by financiers, and financiers stop paying the DJ, and soon enough the software no longer plays music but broadcasts the propaganda of those in power from the fourth industrial estate. It is because: where can you hear the music? Raising children indoors, and afraid of the pied piper, afraid of the actual music of prayers, is the crumblings of traditions through the enforcement (the sociological imposition) of "how one ought to pray".

What is music? Is music listening or is music singing? If you do not sing do you know music? Okay many questions about the nature of music tailored to correspond with the idea of "what is actually prayers?"

So if prayers are a spontaneous expression. We hope for all music to advance in terms of how we consider to be its quality of spontaneous expression. We hope for the new eloquence of human individuals in the offering of prayer to be delivered to the ear of paradise, to advance in terms of how we consider to be its quality of spontaneous expression. You do not want those who recite prayers to have their true desires remain unexpressed. Everyone has their own song to sing.

Re: praying in tongues

Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm +0000

SEla_Kelly wrote:"Spontaneous Expression" versus "praying in tongues". Hello you are asking for some type of clarification herein.

Spontaneous Expression is therefore a civil liberty. Prayer is being described as "spontaneous expression". I will describe music also as being a spontaneous (expression), which does not imply prayer. Within both the institutionalisation of music, the institutionalisation of recitation fact/fiction: there is both degradation of prayer quality and music quality. If music needs to be (what does that mean colloquy) "played" "heard", does this correspond not to actual music but to the intellectual hungers of the human individual. The human individual is not constrained by the desire to "hear that one song again". Radio stations become controlled by financiers, and financiers stop paying the DJ, and soon enough the software no longer plays music but broadcasts the propaganda of those in power from the fourth industrial estate. It is because: where can you hear the music? Raising children indoors, and afraid of the pied piper, afraid of the actual music of prayers, is the crumblings of traditions through the enforcement (the sociological imposition) of "how one ought to pray".

What is music? Is music listening or is music singing? If you do not sing do you know music? Okay many questions about the nature of music tailored to correspond with the idea of "what is actually prayers?"

So if prayers are a spontaneous expression. We hope for all music to advance in terms of how we consider to be its quality of spontaneous expression. We hope for the new eloquence of human individuals in the offering of prayer to be delivered to the ear of paradise, to advance in terms of how we consider to be its quality of spontaneous expression. You do not want those who recite prayers to have their true desires remain unexpressed. Everyone has their own song to sing.


Thanks for giving serious thought to the subject, I appreciate that. And since I am a musician of sorts and a songwriter, and since I also spontaneously express my deepest yearnings in prayer and sometimes spontaneously express this in a tongue which I don't understand, I "resonated" with the points you made here even if didn't clearly understand 100%.

When I play music sometimes I feel "annointed" and other times I feel like I'm just going through the motions. Sometimes we working musicians have a good night and sometimes we don't. When I write a song the inspiration comes and more or less takes control of my mental processes. Sometimes I seem to get it right and other times I fall short of the inspiration, either for lack of talent or because of interruption of the creative flow. Mathematicians and scientists also follow the flow of inspiration and revelation, sculptors and painters, writers, teachers and speakers all have to yield to the powerful flow of inspiration. It is bigger than you, and whether it comes from outside or inside the process involves an individual becoming a mere channel for that flow. I wouldn't care to try and define the process or discover the mechanics and dynamics of it, I am more interested in the results. As a musician I want people to feel good and be entertained. As a songwriter I want people to get the message or get a glimpse of the same inspiration. The goal is to somehow benefit others and in some cases I want them to be willing to trade money for the experience, unfortunately,

But personal private prayer does not play to a crowd, it does not seek to affect or benefit others. It is the opening of a channel directly to the Father, and is spontaneous by nature, almost like a flash of lightning in its suddeness. The soul is burdened and desires relief, or the spirit seeks guidance, or the heart seeks contact with the eternal, whatever it is it is strictly personal and cannot be judged or observed by others. That must be why Jesus advised us to "go into our closet and pray" and that was the sample He gave us, drawing a space apart to commune with the Father.

I requested counsel about this subject because I have a lot of contact with Christians who are weary of Christianity. We share a common past and some things such as praying in tongues are shared experiences. I am fully aware that TUB doesn't encourage emotional spiritual experience and as I mentioned I am not preaching it or advocating the practice of it, yet there it is, a reality in my life and the life of others I know and I merely wanted to understand it better. Once again thanks for taking the time to consider my post and answering sincerely.

Re: praying in tongues

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:01 pm +0000

So if you have so much intrinsic knowledge, my only advice can be to remain absolutely patient in regards to the prospect of ushering, usherance, through the experience of socialisation personal contact with other human individuals simply to observe and appreciate, the uniqueness of their chosen format of expression.

Ralph Waldo Emerson reminds me "it is not to be underestimated that the common labourer indeed thinks sublime thoughts." He introduces his works, as the editor of Transcendentalism i.e. "the Dial", during his first collected essays: exploration of nature's metempsychosis. The ideal of metempsychosis comes from the psychointrospections of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe and others throughout history. A method of "sauntering", describes the opening of the human mind, when in personal contact with nature. Emersons' perhaps greatest protege Henry David Thoreau once stated "Traveller the road that you walk is not laid before you: it is made by walking." One must be careful enough to know when to open spiritual reception channels "so as not to be hypnotised" when one is self-preserved in the auspices of Nature, hopefully.

Truly, contemplation can become a key part of any planned effort. However, it is the skills when a person forges and developed from an early age that "set the course", for his own kind of spontaneous expression. Some people, actually have never found the proper environment in which to feel liberated? comfortable? enough to express, and solitude is perscribed as one kind of means by which the human individual may obtain/discover the environment of spontaneous expression.

Re: praying in tongues

Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:06 pm +0000

If something like praying in tongues happened to me I would try to record it in order to find out if it were a different language and if the words had any meaning and value.
As I have never experienced or witnessed this phenomenon I’m at a loss to take it seriously - seriously being that it has some real meaning and value, as analogous to personal revelation.

The only thing even close in my experience is I have a cousin who is a medium and she and her family belong to a spiritualist church.
No possible connection there for me although I gave it a fair shot many years ago.
Then after reading “Minds at Mischief” my belief about it was confirmed.

Re: praying in tongues

Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:18 pm +0000

I have always been content to believe that my "words" were understood by the Lord and that as it says in the passage I quoted, were "indited by the spirit".
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