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 Post subject: Planetary Sovereignty
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The question of planetary sovereignty does bring up some interesting and perplexing questions:

- Who is the stakeholder of sovereignty? Is it the human inhabitants? The Midwayers? The angelic orders? The Life Carriers? Michael?
- What portion of the current residents from those classes have special rights or support from the government?
- Is the final decision power of the sovereignty inherent in one person always? A council?
- How do the wishes and needs of each citizen get represented?
- How are conflicts in governance policies between stakeholders and decision makers handled?


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Riktare wrote:
The question of planetary sovereignty does bring up some interesting and perplexing questions:

- Who is the stakeholder of sovereignty? Is it the human inhabitants? The Midwayers? The angelic orders? The Life Carriers? Michael?

We are all stakeholders but only in one way: we each have personal sovereignty. Otherwise, sovereignty resides in the hands of designated leadership of a specific geographical area (planet, system, constellation, universe) or as an order of beings being ruled or under the jurisdiction of a leader or order of leadership. Groups as well as individuals may enjoy sovereignty.

- What portion of the current residents from those classes have special rights or support from the government?

All individuals have sole and exclusive sovereignty of their individual being by the unlimited free will each enjoys over their own decisions and actions - personal sovereignty is never violated by leadership. The each may cooperate or submit or find common cause and willingly support leadership....or not.

- Is the final decision power of the sovereignty inherent in one person always? A council?

This varies from situation to situation and group to group and place to place. But even where sovereignty is vested and centered and held by one individual (like the Planetary Prince or System Sovereign or Creator Son), the example in the UB seems to be a willing submission to the experiential wisdom and voluntary counsel of others, especially during times of unusual circumstances and challenges. Rarely, it seems, does any sovereign agent or agency resist or resent the help and advice of others....especially that and those who have an even higher level of authority...and sovereignty. The planetary sovereignty of a Prince submits to that of the System Sovereign and they to the Constellation and they to the Creator Son, etc.

- How do the wishes and needs of each citizen get represented?

Their own personal sovereignty allows for freedom of expression and opinion and dissent and objection and appeal. We are given many examples of such appeal and of disagreement as to policy, strategy, tactic, timing, priority, etc. The universe is run by freedom of individual expression and self determined cooperation....and representation and vote and appeal. This occurs at every level of reality. The universe is operated by its leadership under the general rule of the greatest good for the greatest number....and by the highest form of the golden rule and the duty/obligation of serving others. The exceptions to this are rare and considered sin or iniquity or even rebellion as I understand it.

- How are conflicts in governance policies between stakeholders and decision makers handled?

See above. An orderly system of dissent exists in all experiential organizations and groups of experiential beings. And mistakes and less than perfect decisions are reached and improved upon by further experience and wisdom - and the growing influence of the Supreme.


Or so I understand. Very interesting topic! Please note that the Prince's staff and the Garden's residents did not rule by force or coercion or payment/bribe. They ruled by superior knowledge and wisdom and patience and the fruits of the Spirit. Until they didn't rule anything or anyone at all.

My answers to the questions are presented above in bold italics. Thank you.

8)


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To me, the most interesting part in paper 114 about the governance and sovereignty of Urantia is this one:

We are told that "There are certain groups of planetary problems which are still under the control of the Most Highs of Edentia, jurisdiction over them having been seized at the time of the Lucifer rebellion. Authority in these matters is exercised by a Vorondadek Son, the Norlatiadek observer, who maintains very close advisory relations with the planetary supervisors ..." and then:

Quote:
114:4.4 (1253.7) A Most High observer is empowered, at his discretion, to seize the planetary government in times of grave planetary crises, and it is of record that this has happened thirty-three times in the history of Urantia. At such times the Most High observer functions as the Most High regent, exercising unquestioned authority over all ministers and administrators resident on the planet excepting only the divisional organization of the archangels.


This is comforting in many ways, but it is also a direct threat to our planetary sovereignty in those exceptional times of grave planetary crisis. What I think this is telling us is 'We give you a chance to figure things out; but if you screw up big time, we will not hesitate to step in and set things right.' Apparently, there have been a not insignificant number of these grave planetary crises so far.


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Actually it is simply another aspect OF planetary sovereignty I think. The before and after text:

114:4.3 (1253.6) In a crisis the actual and sovereign head of the government, excepting in certain purely spiritual matters, would be this Vorondadek Son of Edentia now on observation duty. (In these exclusively spiritual problems and in certain purely personal matters, the supreme authority seems to be vested in the commanding archangel attached to the divisional headquarters of that order which was recently established on Urantia.)

114:4.5 (1253.8) Vorondadek regencies are not peculiar to rebellion-isolated planets, for the Most Highs may intervene at any time in the affairs of the inhabited worlds, interposing the superior wisdom of the constellation rulers in the affairs of the kingdoms of men.

But Urantia has a very unique style of governance to be sure.


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Found this related to leadership and individual liberty. Even at the Super Universe Level, at least, there is a sovereignty that is truly determined by the free will choices of each and every creature alive within that Super Universe. All sovereignty is determined by the voluntary cooperation of those residents within the realm or sphere of each level of sovereignty!! From the lowest and least level of organization and leadership to the highest and largest, every level of sovereignty is determined by all the lesser levels included within the greater one.

Sovereignty above the individual free will choice arena is totally dependent upon the aggregate of that absolute sovereignty OF THE INIVIDUAL! This is tremendously and profoundly important!!! And the precise opposite of how power and authority work on the primitive human levels of organization.

13:4.4 Physical authority, presence, and function are unvarying in all the universes, small or great. The differing factor in spiritual presence, or reaction, is the fluctuating differential in its recognition and reception by will creatures. Whereas the spiritual presence of absolute and existential Deity is in no manner whatever influenced by attitudes of loyalty or disloyalty on the part of created beings, at the same time it is true that the functioning presence of subabsolute and experiential Deity is definitely and directly influenced by the decisions, choices, and will-attitudes of such finite creature beings—by the loyalty and devotion of the individual being, planet, system, constellation, or universe. But this spiritual presence of divinity is not whimsical nor arbitrary; its experiential variance is inherent in the freewill endowment of personal creatures.

13:4.5 The determiner of the differential of spiritual presence exists in your own hearts and minds and consists in the manner of your own choosing, in the decisions of your minds, and in the determination of your own wills. This differential is inherent in the freewill reactions of intelligent personal beings, beings whom the Universal Father has ordained shall exercise this liberty of choosing. And the Deities are ever true to the ebb and flow of their spirits in meeting and satisfying the conditions and demands of this differential of creature choice, now bestowing more of their presence in response to a sincere desire for the same and again withdrawing themselves from the scene as their creatures decide adversely in the exercise of their divinely bestowed freedom of choice. And thus does the spirit of divinity become humbly obedient to the choosing of the creatures of the realms.


This is, to me, the ultimate explanation as to why suffering is allowed. It cannot be stopped due to our personal sovereignty. It does not matter how unwise our choices or the harmful effects of free will choices...each creature has free will sovereignty and that sovereignty is absolute. These quotes have lit a lamp which illuminates to me how the universe works and why rebellion is allowed and suffered through as it is explained in the UB. The true sovereignty of our Local Universe and Constellation and our System and of our world must await that time when it is restored by its citizens and their own free will cooperation. It cannot be forced or enforced prior to such time allowed for the recovery of and while preserving and protecting the sovereignty of individual free will.

This was the reason then for the 7 years of silence by the Creator Son of Nebadon who had not yet earned his full measure of personal sovereignty over his creation but always remains subject to the cooperation of all those free will beings created within his jurisdiction of sovereignty. Even today we jointly await the exhaustion of the effects from the cause of the rebellion and the full restoration of the cooperative support of those beings affected.

Forgive me if you find me in the weeds here...or even the ditch. Feel free to argue, refine, correct, and comment with your own perspective of what the quotes above mean. I am here to learn and gain much by the insights of others. Thank you.

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If actually there is actual sovereignty regarded for the destiny of Urantia, as God the First Source and Center would reserve individually. I believe that as the Son of Man, Jesus protects the sovereign rights of the human individual. As the Son of God, Michael of Nebadon I believe protect the sovereignty of Urantia. If Urantia has an individual destiny, then even if it is a chunk of rock in which we each inhabit, I think of the personality of Universal Father as expressible through the safeguarding Urantia's ultimate potentials, sharing my love and appreciation for this world. "such a Deliverer shall be as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land." (tUB 190:5.4)

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to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Last edited by SEla_Kelly on Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:40 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
Actually it is simply another aspect OF planetary sovereignty I think. The before and after text:

114:4.3 (1253.6) In a crisis the actual and sovereign head of the government, excepting in certain purely spiritual matters, would be this Vorondadek Son of Edentia now on observation duty. (In these exclusively spiritual problems and in certain purely personal matters, the supreme authority seems to be vested in the commanding archangel attached to the divisional headquarters of that order which was recently established on Urantia.)

114:4.5 (1253.8) Vorondadek regencies are not peculiar to rebellion-isolated planets, for the Most Highs may intervene at any time in the affairs of the inhabited worlds, interposing the superior wisdom of the constellation rulers in the affairs of the kingdoms of men.

But Urantia has a very unique style of governance to be sure.


Yes, sure I saw that. But the quote I posted uses a pretty threatening word, IMO. It says, "..., to seize the planetary government …." That sounds like choice is taken away from we, the Urantians. Now, don't mistake me here. I'm not being fearful about this. As I said, it's comforting in its way. But it is a strong statement that shows a loss of control, perhaps even of sovereignty. Even the quotes you posted, above, use similar terms: "intervene" and "interpose".

Honestly, the way things are going on Urantia right now, I'd welcome a little 'intervening' by the Most Highs.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
But the planet is not regarded as itself an individual?
Urantia as a phyiscal world cannot be thought of as sovereign?
Doesn't the Thought Adjuster who once indwelled Machiventa Melchizedek and Jesus of Nazareth have the ability to represent the sovereign rights of our world somehow?
(190:5.4) "all nations shall call him blessed? .. such a Deliverer shall be as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. "
Does the manner in which we treat the soils of Urantia, reflects our own psychological attitude towards ourselves?
I wonder if "planetary sovereignty" applies as a phrase solely to the spiritually administrative governance, as Agon D. Onter told me, or if actually there is actual sovereignty regarded for the destiny of Urantia, as God the First Source and Center would reserve individually.


NO...physical matter and systems are not and cannot have sovereignty. Planets are just dirt, rocks, minerals, etc. They have no life or being of their own. They are but vehicles for life. You do not know this? Same for stars and asteroids, etc.
Sovereignty is a function of personality leadership derived by the voluntary cooperation of other personalities within a specific set of those personalities in a hierarchical system of aggregational order/organization.

NO...no TA has territorial or organizational sovereignty outside the realm of the TA's. They do not rule any segments of reality. But although pre-personal, they certainly do seem to enjoy individual sovereignty...they choose their mortals for indwelling and they volunteer for service and they gain experiential wisdom.

Urantia's planetary sovereignty will always be affected by its status as the Shrine of Nebadon and final bestowal planet of Michael where he earned his own sovereignty over his own creation and universe. Otherwise, the "destiny of Urantia" is the same as all other evolutionary inhabited worlds - LIght and Life.

What has the portion of quote you posted to do with the topic of planetary sovereignty or your questions Stephen?


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jul 24, 2019 5:32 pm +0000, edited 5 times in total.

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Actually it is simply another aspect OF planetary sovereignty I think. The before and after text:

114:4.3 (1253.6) In a crisis the actual and sovereign head of the government, excepting in certain purely spiritual matters, would be this Vorondadek Son of Edentia now on observation duty. (In these exclusively spiritual problems and in certain purely personal matters, the supreme authority seems to be vested in the commanding archangel attached to the divisional headquarters of that order which was recently established on Urantia.)

114:4.5 (1253.8) Vorondadek regencies are not peculiar to rebellion-isolated planets, for the Most Highs may intervene at any time in the affairs of the inhabited worlds, interposing the superior wisdom of the constellation rulers in the affairs of the kingdoms of men.

But Urantia has a very unique style of governance to be sure.


Yes, sure I saw that. But the quote I posted uses a pretty threatening word, IMO. It says, "..., to seize the planetary government …." That sounds like choice is taken away from we, the Urantians. Now, don't mistake me here. I'm not being fearful about this. As I said, it's comforting in its way. But it is a strong statement that shows a loss of control, perhaps even of sovereignty. Even the quotes you posted, above, use similar terms: "intervene" and "interpose".

Honestly, the way things are going on Urantia right now, I'd welcome a little 'intervening' by the Most Highs.


RIGHT????!!!!

I think the point is to regain control. I remember learning to handle a team of horses as a kid....Grandpa would sure take over the reins whenever he thought the horses had taken control away from me! It was all about safety and order and keeping sovereignty appropriately appropriated!!!

I am curious as to the nature of such emergencies myself.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
If actually there is actual sovereignty regarded for the destiny of Urantia, as God the First Source and Center would reserve individually. I believe that as the Son of Man, Jesus protects the sovereign rights of the human individual. As the Son of God, Michael of Nebadon I believe protect the sovereignty of Urantia. If Urantia has an individual destiny, then even if it is a chunk of rock in which we each inhabit, I think of the personality of Universal Father as expressible through the safeguarding Urantia's ultimate potentials, sharing my love and appreciation for this world. "such a Deliverer shall be as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land." (tUB 190:5.4)


You do not know the destiny of Urantia? Free will is given by the First Source and Center to all personalities and is honored by all creatures and all Deity. Do you not know about free will Stephen? And we just spent weeks studying this very subject and reviewed so much text together. You don't remember the source of free will?

Your concerns for our world are misplaced. Urantia is a beloved site and receiving extraordinary attention and its destiny is quite certain. Your focus should be shifted to your own spiritization and service to other people...not places.

156:2.1 (1735.5) In entering Sidon, Jesus and his associates passed over a bridge, the first one many of them had ever seen. As they walked over this bridge, Jesus, among other things, said: “This world is only a bridge; you may pass over it, but you should not think to build a dwelling place upon it.”

All sovereignty of all worlds and systems and constellation and universes is served, honored, and protected by the next upward levels of sovereignty. That's the pattern Stephen.


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Consider Michael's response to outright rebellion:

53:4.4 (605.1) While there had been two previous rebellions in Nebadon, they were in distant constellations. Lucifer held that these insurrections were unsuccessful because the majority of the intelligences failed to follow their leaders. He contended that “majorities rule,” that “mind is infallible.” The freedom allowed him by the universe rulers apparently sustained many of his nefarious contentions. He defied all his superiors; yet they apparently took no note of his doings. He was given a free hand to prosecute his seductive plan without let or hindrance.

53:4.5 (605.2) All the merciful delays of justice Lucifer pointed to as evidence of the inability of the government of the Paradise Sons to stop the rebellion. He would openly defy and arrogantly challenge Michael, Immanuel, and the Ancients of Days and then point to the fact that no action ensued as positive evidence of the impotency of the universe and the superuniverse governments.

53:4.6 (605.3) Gabriel was personally present throughout all these disloyal proceedings and only announced that he would, in due time, speak for Michael, and that all beings would be left free and unmolested in their choice; that the “government of the Sons for the Father desired only that loyalty and devotion which was voluntary, wholehearted, and sophistry-proof.”

53:4.7 (605.4) Lucifer was permitted fully to establish and thoroughly to organize his rebel government before Gabriel made any effort to contest the right of secession or to counterwork the rebel propaganda. But the Constellation Fathers immediately confined the action of these disloyal personalities to the system of Satania. Nevertheless, this period of delay was a time of great trial and testing to the loyal beings of all Satania. All was chaotic for a few years, and there was great confusion on the mansion worlds.

53:5.2 (605.6) At the time of this rebellion and the two which preceded it there was no absolute and personal sovereign authority in the universe of Nebadon. Michael ruled by divine right, as vicegerent of the Universal Father, but not yet in his own personal right. He had not completed his bestowal career; he had not yet been vested with “all power in heaven and on earth.” *

53:5.3 (605.7) From the outbreak of rebellion to the day of his enthronement as sovereign ruler of Nebadon, Michael never interfered with the rebel forces of Lucifer; they were allowed to run a free course for almost two hundred thousand years of Urantia time. Christ Michael now has ample power and authority to deal promptly, even summarily, with such outbreaks of disloyalty, but we doubt that this sovereign authority would lead him to act differently if another such upheaval should occur.


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fanofVan wrote:
This is, to me, the ultimate explanation as to why suffering is allowed. It cannot be stopped due to our personal sovereignty. It does not matter how unwise our choices or the harmful effects of free will choices...each creature has free will sovereignty and that sovereignty is absolute. These quotes have lit a lamp which illuminates to me how the universe works and why rebellion is allowed and suffered through as it is explained in the UB. The true sovereignty of our Local Universe and Constellation and our System and of our world must await that time when it is restored by its citizens and their own free will cooperation. It cannot be forced or enforced prior to such time allowed for the recovery of and while preserving and protecting the sovereignty of individual free will.

This was the reason then for the 7 years of silence by the Creator Son of Nebadon who had not yet earned his full measure of personal sovereignty over his creation but always remains subject to the cooperation of all those free will beings created within his jurisdiction of sovereignty. Even today we jointly await the exhaustion of the effects from the cause of the rebellion and the full restoration of the cooperative support of those beings affected.


You're digging deep here. This is one of your best posts ever. I'll ponder a bit before commenting or asking more questions.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
If actually there is actual sovereignty regarded for the destiny of Urantia, as God the First Source and Center would reserve individually. I believe that as the Son of Man, Jesus protects the sovereign rights of the human individual. As the Son of God, Michael of Nebadon I believe protect the sovereignty of Urantia. If Urantia has an individual destiny, then even if it is a chunk of rock in which we each inhabit, I think of the personality of Universal Father as expressible through the safeguarding Urantia's ultimate potentials, sharing my love and appreciation for this world. "such a Deliverer shall be as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land." (tUB 190:5.4)


Okay, yes, good thinking. The destiny of Urantia seems to be what is guarded or protected as far as the "sovereignty" of the planet, formally termed, would be I think. The stakeholders of that would presumably be The Trinity with Michael as the principal protector I guess.

By the way, we're told that the universe is more like a living organism than dead matter. We might see The Earth as a chunk of rock, but within and around that rock there is energy and intelligence pervading it, possibly even some sort of will.

116:7.1 (1276.2) The grand universe is not only a material creation of physical grandeur, spirit sublimity, and intellectual magnitude, it is also a magnificent and responsive living organism. There is actual life pulsating throughout the mechanism of the vast creation of the vibrant cosmos. The physical reality of the universes is symbolic of the perceivable reality of the Almighty Supreme; and this material and living organism is penetrated by intelligence circuits, even as the human body is traversed by a network of neural sensation paths. This physical universe is permeated by energy lanes which effectively activate material creation, even as the human body is nourished and energized by the circulatory distribution of the assimilable energy products of nourishment. The vast universe is not without those co-ordinating centers of magnificent overcontrol which might be compared to the delicate chemical-control system of the human mechanism. But if you only knew something about the physique of a power center, we could, by analogy, tell you so much more about the physical universe.


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Riktare wrote:
The destiny of Urantia seems to be what is guarded or protected as far as the "sovereignty" of the planet, formally termed, would be I think. The stakeholders of that would presumably be The Trinity with Michael as the principal protector I guess.


What exactly do you mean by "stakeholders"? Are you talking about the actual sovereigns? Or are you talking about anyone with vested interest? We all know that God the Father is the Universal Sovereign and that Michael of Nebadon is the Universe Sovereign. Michael is also Urantia's Sovereign (Planetary Prince) despite the fact that he has delegated the responsibility to others. And, aren't the Reserve Corps of Destiny the protectors of planetary destiny?

(1257.2) 114:7.2 When human beings are chosen as protectors of planetary destiny, when they become pivotal individuals in the plans which the world administrators are prosecuting, at that time the planetary chief of seraphim confirms their temporal attachment to the seraphic corps and appoints personal destiny guardians to serve with these mortal reservists. All reservists have self-conscious Adjusters, and most of them function in the higher cosmic circles of intellectual achievement and spiritual attainment.


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(1257.2) 114:7.2 is an especially intriguing passage. It seems destiny reservists are protectors at the lowest will level, and very temporary ones at that. But there is great meaning that we are involved and necessary in this great scheme! The executive arch-angel is a protector of destiny regarding spiritual matters I'd guess. And so on up until Michael. He may be the final or highest protector in the realm of time and space. The Ancients of Days seem to be concerned with individual destinies from what we're told and also function as adjudicators.

By stakeholders I mean the persons who expect to see value arise from the endeavor. I imagine that, if the Trinity is the highest stakeholder of our planet's destiny, they will want to see the greatest realization of actuals from the potentials set in motion. I suppose too, that the growth of the Supreme Being is part of the value rendering equation.


Last edited by Riktare on Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:28 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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