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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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For a fresh angle on this, think about those 100 Jerusem volunteers (the Caligastia one hundred, 66:2.3) who served so well for 300,000 years in Dalamatia.

From (744.8, 66:4.9)
Quote:
"This group, while enjoying provisional citizenship on Jerusem, were as yet unfused with their Thought Adjusters; and when they volunteered and were accepted for planetary service in liaison with the descending orders of sonship, their Adjusters were detached. But these Jerusemites were superhuman beings -- they possessed souls of ascendant growth. During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds. And the souls of the Caligastia one hundred had thus expanded through the progressive experiences of the seven mansion worlds to citizenship status on Jerusem."(744.8, 66:4.9)

Here we have a group of young souls who had enjoyed their necessary remedial work on the mansion worlds, and then returned as assistants and teachers to help kick-start civilization on this world. These 100 volunteers would surely have had some more-or-less shared understanding of how Michael's local universe worked, and the possibilities for their own personal future careers. In other words, they would have shared "a universe frame in which to think".

From (1260.2, 115:1.1),
Quote:
"Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree."(1260.2, 115:1.1)

Regarding this shared "universe frame in which to think", these 100 souls would have acquired this from their experience and education on the mansion words. Which raises a question: how might this "universe frame" differ from the one painted by the Urantia book? If they match, then we too can share this "frame in which to think" simply by comprehending and accepting this epochal revelation.

The alternative is to "postulate conclusions and invent origins". I think this is the sort of second rate "metaphysical patch" the authors describe, and which Bradley is exploring. This is what we humans must resort to if we lack either the insight of mota, or explicit revelation (or of course direct personal experience).

Nigel


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Exactly Nigel....and thank you. 115:1.1 goes directly to the point of the topic and my hopes for discussion - how fictional fallacies of beliefs and perspective still contribute to and do not prevent religious experience and transformation. How inherent are such temporary constructs of perspective and how useful - no matter how inaccurate!

Some of us seem stuck and hung up on the meaning of the term metaphysics and the differences between metaphysics, personal revelation, and philosophy. I appreciate your help moving the discussion forward!

Metaphysics is not philosophy but are elements and ingredients of philosophy which twist and distort philosophy to the degree that our philosophy depends upon these "erroneous frames" of reference and perspective. Likewise can the mortal mind distort personal revelation to form additional errors of perspective and philosophy. It is these inherent dangers of philiosophical distortion that metaphysics and personal revelation have in common.

Another important distinction between metaphysics and personal revelation is their respective sources, in addition to subject matter and purpose. Personal revelation does not originate by or within mortal mind...it comes by and from the TA. Metaphysics originates in and is an invention of mortal mind and are therefore certainly not the same or similar in source, purpose, meaning, or value as personal revelation.

:idea: 8)


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fanofVan do not accept "what a person actually belief true", as per Revelation. But in this life I take through socialisation the testimony of others, in what they call Revelation, so I am just working with actual knowledge and I admit is not ideal version.

Revelation and Metaphysic have similaritie in that they are both misunderstood. But no as I have tried to explain Metaphysics applies to the spiritual receptive power status, whereas Revelation is likened unto "the determination & recognition of the human individual, or ego". The big difference: one apply to the receptive of human mind, the other pertain to affirmation, personal recognition of spiritual experience. The maximum byproduct of Revelation is to entice the human individual into having the ability to choose to perform God's will. The maximum refinement of metaphysics is in that the finalitor, capable of expression in the universe "omniform", as in any contingency of life to provide sentience oversight to the system/body corporeal at hand.

Reason why Metaphysics 0 consensus fact is the unconscious is ill-defined by man. It is a mystery wrapped in the Ark of the Covenant, Shakinaha, and the like "shrowded". I say, until humanity as a planetary collective is become mature, we are not elligible to express the actuational dynamic. It is the mystery of how mind is transduced and spiritual is induced. Revelation, at least, a man can be bound by his own testimony "con toda palabra". That is correct I am not seeking to know the character (character as in "manifestation/crystallisation of personality") of God but the character of the individual, in his final status. But we know or accept Jesus as archetype of a father, and a father is (Urantian tradition) exalted as potentially "Being like God."

Nigel Nun. Of course "frame in which to think" is metaphor for the developed-perception. If Mota is actual, then it implies the metaphysical gestation of the "embryonic soul" into a fledgling status of the universe (pre-ascendant being status). That such beings would grace Urantia but like Ikarus "burnt out too soon". Mota is the natural elaboration of the revelational faith-struggle for decimal planet ascencion, supposedly according to UB (crude paraphrase). Therefore we can say that human perception and mota, both share "inductionary framework" whereby spiritual force may "fill the spaces therein with that picture which God would have intended to explain to that individual." But as morontial being you Nigel must admit you require the frame but this is the pre-finalitor condition I would suppose omniform is to operate "with or without such frame" or at least "with any frame imaginable", any issuance of life-tabernacle.

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Well, the Mighty Messenger who authored paper 40:5.16 exercises the same sort of metaphysics that any personality trying to figure things out or find that unity would do when he states that he is “inclined to the belief” (how metaphysical is that)? And tries to explain why he thinks that series one and two ascending mortals “cannot” fuse with their Adjusters.
The authors do this sort of thing many times throughout the revelation for good reason. They likely want us to do it.
And isn’t that universe frame of mind simply getting in sync with the cosmic mind? At least in the local creation.
But then again, some concepts or techniques or information are termed secret simply because it just does not apply to us and there is no way it would make sense to us if we did have the information. Secret in the revelation taken with humility should inform us that it simply don’t apply and there is no intent on the part of the authors or anyone else to keep anything from us but we can exercise our metaphysical muscles if we choose to do so. Which leads to being “inclined to belief” about many things on many levels. Some things we will never know and will be left with no alternative but to endlessly build on our inclination to believe until we finally give up and go on to something that can be figured out.


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Sophist you are absolutely correct but I don't care about things I will never know but I care immensely about those secrets which the seraphic planetary government withholds from Urantia as per "quarantine" or the fact that such knowledge is likely to be misused once edified.

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the purpose of revelation as it pertains to the philosophy of metaphysics...our inherent (spirit of wisdom) tendency to co-ordinate consciousness...isn't so much to correct errors but rather to fill an otherwise unattainable gap, for mota man cannot percieve:

Quote:
Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data...


the correcting errors role of epochal revalation pertains primarily to the errors in evolutionary religion

and yes of course the 100 knew how the universe works...we have a long period of metaphysical studies ahead of us in the effort to unite the scientific viewpoint with the spiritual viewpoint after we acquire intervening morontia material and mota philosophy:


Quote:
103:7.3 But as ascending man reaches inward and Paradiseward for the God experience, he will likewise be reaching outward and spaceward for an energy understanding of the material cosmos. The progression of science is not limited to the terrestrial life of man; his universe and superuniverse ascension experience will to no small degree be the study of energy transmutation and material metamorphosis. God is spirit, but Deity is unity, and the unity of Deity not only embraces the spiritual values of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son but is also cognizant of the energy facts of the Universal Controller and the Isle of Paradise, while these two phases of universal reality are perfectly correlated in the mind relationships of the Conjoint Actor and unified on the finite level in the emerging Deity of the Supreme Being.

103:7.4 The union of the scientific attitude and the religious insight by the mediation of experiential philosophy is part of man's long Paradise-ascension experience. The approximations of mathematics and the certainties of insight will always require the harmonizing function of mind logic on all levels of experience short of the maximum attainment of the Supreme.


Last edited by Makalu on Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:45 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Sophist you are absolutely correct but I don't care about things I will never know but I care immensely about those secrets which the seraphic planetary government withholds from Urantia as per "quarantine" or the fact that such knowledge is likely to be misused once edified.


This same quarantine was happening when Jesus was here and what was it that he tried to pound into the minds of his decipels - "fear not".
I take this to mean that no matter what happens, if all earthly things crash and we die a less than desirable death, nothing can harm the soul. Even today we could stand at the epicenter of a nuke explosion and the soul would remain untouched, true meaning and value survives.


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Makalu wrote:
the purpose of revelation as it pertains to the philosophy of metaphysics...our inherent (spirit of wisdom) tendency to co-ordinate consciousness...isn't so much to correct errors but rather to fill an otherwise unattainable gap, for mota man cannot percieve:

Quote:
Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data...


the correcting errors role of epochal revalation pertains primarily to the errors in evolutionary religion

and yes of course the 100 knew how the universe works...we have a long period of metaphysical studies ahead of us in the effort to unite the scientific viewpoint with the spiritual viewpoint after we acquire intervening morontia material and mota philosophy:


Quote:
103:7.3 But as ascending man reaches inward and Paradiseward for the God experience, he will likewise be reaching outward and spaceward for an energy understanding of the material cosmos. The progression of science is not limited to the terrestrial life of man; his universe and superuniverse ascension experience will to no small degree be the study of energy transmutation and material metamorphosis. God is spirit, but Deity is unity, and the unity of Deity not only embraces the spiritual values of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son but is also cognizant of the energy facts of the Universal Controller and the Isle of Paradise, while these two phases of universal reality are perfectly correlated in the mind relationships of the Conjoint Actor and unified on the finite level in the emerging Deity of the Supreme Being.

103:7.4 The union of the scientific attitude and the religious insight by the mediation of experiential philosophy is part of man's long Paradise-ascension experience. The approximations of mathematics and the certainties of insight will always require the harmonizing function of mind logic on all levels of experience short of the maximum attainment of the Supreme.



The FER itself says its very purpose IS the elimination of error (as well as the reduction of confusion). And the FER offers tens of thousands of facts regarding origins, destiny, creationism, evolution, anthropology, development of the state and society and evolutionary religion, biology, genetics, astronomy, energy, personality, the other creatures of the universe, science, history, and factual cosmology related to universe reality that is not particular to our religious experience per se, but has far more to do with our understanding of who, what, when, where, how, and why.

101:4.6 (1109.7) 1. The reduction of confusion by the authoritative elimination of error.
101:4.7 (1109.8) 2. The co-ordination of known or about-to-be-known facts and observations.
101:4.8 (1110.1) 3. The restoration of important bits of lost knowledge concerning epochal transactions in the distant past.
101:4.9 (1110.2) 4. The supplying of information which will fill in vital missing gaps in otherwise earned knowledge.
101:4.10 (1110.3) 5. Presenting cosmic data in such a manner as to illuminate the spiritual teachings contained in the accompanying revelation.


Only the third and fourth ER's pertained "primarily to the errors of evolutionary religion". The first, second, and fifth are much more comprehensive in scale and scope and content.


8)




I'm unsure what you mean by philosophy OF metaphysics.


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yeah but:

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4. THE GIFT OF REVELATION

92:4.1 Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world’s history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man’s capacity of receptivity.

92:4.2 But regardless of apparent connection or derivation, the religions of revelation are always characterized by a belief in some Deity of final value and in some concept of the survival of personality identity after death.

92:4.3 Evolutionary religion is sentimental, not logical. It is man’s reaction to belief in a hypothetical ghost-spirit world—the human belief-reflex, excited by the realization and fear of the unknown. Revelatory religion is propounded by the real spiritual world; it is the response of the superintellectual cosmos to the mortal hunger to believe in, and depend upon, the universal Deities. Evolutionary religion pictures the circuitous gropings of humanity in quest of truth; revelatory religion is that very truth.


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I'm unsure what you mean by philosophy OF metaphysics.


yeah i've noticed and it's been an ironically topical display of how the mind makes up bullshit when it can't grasp something


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no sophist wrote:
Well, the Mighty Messenger who authored paper 40:5.16 exercises the same sort of metaphysics that any personality trying to figure things out or find that unity would do when he states that he is “inclined to the belief” (how metaphysical is that)? And tries to explain why he thinks that series one and two ascending mortals “cannot” fuse with their Adjusters.
The authors do this sort of thing many times throughout the revelation for good reason. They likely want us to do it.
And isn’t that universe frame of mind simply getting in sync with the cosmic mind? At least in the local creation.
But then again, some concepts or techniques or information are termed secret simply because it just does not apply to us and there is no way it would make sense to us if we did have the information. Secret in the revelation taken with humility should inform us that it simply don’t apply and there is no intent on the part of the authors or anyone else to keep anything from us but we can exercise our metaphysical muscles if we choose to do so. Which leads to being “inclined to belief” about many things on many levels. Some things we will never know and will be left with no alternative but to endlessly build on our inclination to believe until we finally give up and go on to something that can be figured out.


Greetings no-sophist!!

This is one of the most important and endearing facts about the authors in my opinion....the readily shared fact of their own speculations, conjectures, wonder, and curiosity!!

When you say they "do this sort of thing many times", you aren't kidding!! Another on line study group I attend once attempted to list every instance of such statements....it turned out to be long and not complete I don't think.

I don't think such information is secret so much as "need to know", unrevealed, unearned knowledge, incomprehensible, without explanation - truly inexplicable to certain types of mind and being, etc.

I agree that faith and confidence in Deity is one element of our not knowing...we are to trust God even about that which we cannot explain or understand...Fear Not!! We can trust Deity and Divinity in this friendly universe. Shame and pity on those who do not and cannot and will not trust God and God's will, purpose, power, and plan about everything!! Such suspicions and paranoia are evil/error and will lead the perpetrator to no good end.

The examples of metaphysics in the UB (the unknowns or unknowables subject to speculation by the authors) demonstrates two important things I believe: first is their absolute faith and trust in the Creators and rulers (unlike Lucifer and his rebel leaders who sowed doubt and fear and dissension and paranoia and disharmony), and second is how limited does such areas of speculation come after sufficient education and experience....the authors appear to know much more than the few things they speculate about.


Excellent comments and contributions to the topic. Thank you!! :wink: :idea: 8)


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What about "autorevelation"; "autorevelational technique", its relationship to the mota. It is the ability to process human experience using currently held knowledge. What is autorevelation in its relation to metaphysics once again you have the term but zero explanation. And how is this possible.

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fanofVan wrote:
no sophist wrote:
Well, the Mighty Messenger who authored paper 40:5.16 exercises the same sort of metaphysics that any personality trying to figure things out or find that unity would do when he states that he is “inclined to the belief” (how metaphysical is that)? And tries to explain why he thinks that series one and two ascending mortals “cannot” fuse with their Adjusters.
The authors do this sort of thing many times throughout the revelation for good reason. They likely want us to do it.
And isn’t that universe frame of mind simply getting in sync with the cosmic mind? At least in the local creation.
But then again, some concepts or techniques or information are termed secret simply because it just does not apply to us and there is no way it would make sense to us if we did have the information. Secret in the revelation taken with humility should inform us that it simply don’t apply and there is no intent on the part of the authors or anyone else to keep anything from us but we can exercise our metaphysical muscles if we choose to do so. Which leads to being “inclined to belief” about many things on many levels. Some things we will never know and will be left with no alternative but to endlessly build on our inclination to believe until we finally give up and go on to something that can be figured out.


Greetings no-sophist!!

This is one of the most important and endearing facts about the authors in my opinion....the readily shared fact of their own speculations, conjectures, wonder, and curiosity!!

When you say they "do this sort of thing many times", you aren't kidding!! Another on line study group I attend once attempted to list every instance of such statements....it turned out to be long and not complete I don't think.

I don't think such information is secret so much as "need to know", unrevealed, unearned knowledge, incomprehensible, without explanation - truly inexplicable to certain types of mind and being, etc.

I agree that faith and confidence in Deity is one element of our not knowing...we are to trust God even about that which we cannot explain or understand...Fear Not!! We can trust Deity and Divinity in this friendly universe. Shame and pity on those who do not and cannot and will not trust God and God's will, purpose, power, and plan about everything!! Such suspicions and paranoia are evil/error and will lead the perpetrator to no good end.

The examples of metaphysics in the UB (the unknowns or unknowables subject to speculation by the authors) demonstrates two important things I believe: first is their absolute faith and trust in the Creators and rulers (unlike Lucifer and his rebel leaders who sowed doubt and fear and dissension and paranoia and disharmony), and second is how limited does such areas of speculation come after sufficient education and experience....the authors appear to know much more than the few things they speculate about.


Excellent comments and contributions to the topic. Thank you!! :wink: :idea: 8)


I’ll just go on to say that there is much more going on in finite creation than us mortals and the ascension plan - things and beings.
Given the very small straws to grasp at from most generous authors, what person could not be driven to speculate, conjecture and do metaphysics? Call it what you will.
Not to say that the ascension plan will occupy us for a few trillion years.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
What about "autorevelation"; "autorevelational technique", its relationship to the mota. It is the ability to process human experience using currently held knowledge. What is autorevelation in its relation to metaphysics once again you have the term but zero explanation. And how is this possible.


Autorevelation is simply another term for personal revelation and comes with lots of text to explain. There are only two types of revelation - personal/auto and epochal. TA is the source of personal revelations.

Read 101:4.3


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Please reference 111:6.6 and 6.7 (can't copy/paste right now).

These quotes illuminate the inherencies of knowledge, facts, and intellectual comprehension of the cosmos by the very function of mind....all mind, including mortal mind.

Those who believe (or preach) intellectual knowledge and understanding are not imperative or that meanings are inferior to values are deluded and embrace falsehoods that contradict reality. Both the love and the law of God comprise universe reality.

The knowledge of the facts of reality are indispensable to the formation of an enlightened and functional philosophy. Metaphysics are the mortal's evolutionary efforts to first acknowledge and second to understand God's laws...or the facts and physics of creation.

Those who claim metaphysics unimportant or uninteresting defy reality and the inherent meaning and value of such an endeavor which is as normal and essential as faith itself for the pilgrims of time.

Thus the importance of epochal revelation to reduce our metaphysical confusions and errors.
8)


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Okay fanoVan: I will seek to know/attain the divine Law before I make any actual claim about autorevelation. What I say before (2 Jan) is only speculation. No I cannot accept "personal revelation" and "autorevelation" as being the exact concept.

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