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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Am I understanding you right, that you don't think Andon and Fonta had Thought Adjusters?


no, i was talking about the Spirit of Truth there and know they had TA's and posted the special circumstances of that:

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Upon the making of a supreme decision of unusual spiritual import. Such human behavior in a personal planetary crisis usually is attended by the immediate arrival of the waiting Adjuster.


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What other thing would be required?


the four things listed here...first moral choice would indicate at least partial moral responsibility but there's still three more:

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This level is entered when human beings develop the powers of personal choice, individual decision, moral responsibility, and the capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality. This signifies the united function of the seven adjutant mind-spirits under the direction of the spirit of wisdom, the encircuitment of the mortal creature in the influence of the Holy Spirit, and, on Urantia, the first functioning of the Spirit of Truth, together with the reception of a Thought Adjuster in the mortal mind.


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Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding that. Andon and Fonta's decision was purposeful, conscious and reflective. It was based upon the outreach of the spirit of worship looking for value and upon wisdom helping them identify the superior option over the inferior option.


i don't understand what you dont understand...the other potential couple in the scenario would have made purposeful, reflective, conscious decisions too. you said yourself that the case of andon and fonta is different:

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Today that would be considered selfish, but apparently it was the Father's will. Morality changes, it is not absolute.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
the four things listed here...first moral choice would indicate at least partial moral responsibility but there's still three more:


Please allow me to parse the meaning of those four things: 1. personal choice, 2. individual decision, 3. moral responsibility, 4. capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality.

Personal Choice

The author specifies that this choice must be developed, which assumes that the human being entering the seventh circle has been functioning as a personality prior to entering, but with undeveloped free will powers. Since a personality can only choose from what they are conscious of, I have to conclude that the time must wait until a child has developed a broader consciousness of moral possibilities from which it can choose.

Individual Decision

As opposed to group decision, I think this refers to the child's own developing ideas concerning morality as opposed to what he or she has been taught by others.

Moral Responsibility

The realization that there are consequences to a moral decision and the willingness to accept them. I think this is the meaning of a wholehearted decision. Even if a decision goes against what a child would prefer for his or herself, he or she is willing to make the decision and accept the outcome. It is perhaps the essence of unselfishness.

The Capacity for the Attainment of Spiritual Individuality

This occurs when the mind of the child has made contact with all seven adjutants which expands capacity for spiritual receptivity resulting in the eventual transfer of individual identity to align with spiritual reality, a potential citizen of the local universe.

(1210.8 ) 110:6.13 The seventh circle. This level is entered when human beings develop the powers of personal choice, individual decision, moral responsibility, and the capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality. This signifies the united function of the seven adjutant mind-spirits under the direction of the spirit of wisdom, the encircuitment of the mortal creature in the influence of the Holy Spirit, and, on Urantia, the first functioning of the Spirit of Truth, together with the reception of a Thought Adjuster in the mortal mind. Entrance upon the seventh circle constitutes a mortal creature a truly potential citizen of the local universe.


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Makalu wrote:
i don't understand what you dont understand...the other potential couple in the scenario would have made purposeful, reflective, conscious decisions too. you said yourself that the case of andon and fonta is different:


I am yet not sure to what you are referring. Who is the "other potential couple in the scenario"?

I did not say that Andon and Fonta's case was different, I said morality is different, it changes. Their budding wisdom provided a limited moral environment from which to choose.

A moral decision one million years ago is not necessarily the same as a moral decision today. The mores change as civilization changes, as wisdom grows. Morality is humanly derived, not spiritually derived. It is subspiritual and mediates between physical reality and spiritual reality. It comes from a sense of duty, the second philosophical, wisdom connected reality recognition response of the cosmic mind. References:

(2096.1) 196:3.25 Morality is the essential pre-existent soil of personal God-consciousness, the personal realization of the Adjuster's inner presence, but such morality is not the source of religious experience and the resultant spiritual insight. The moral nature is superanimal but subspiritual. Morality is equivalent to the recognition of duty, the realization of the existence of right and wrong. The moral zone intervenes between the animal and the human types of mind as morontia functions between the material and the spiritual spheres of personality attainment.

(192.3) 16:6.7 2. Duty — the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.

(194.7 ) 16:8.7 The relative free will which characterizes the self-consciousness of human personality is involved in:
(194.8 ) 16:8.8 1. Moral decision, highest wisdom.

(1142.1) 103:9.10 When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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So...are we agreed then that the seventh circle may be entered prior to soul birth and the arrival of the TA when a world has not yet received the Son's Spirit? And that soul birth also occurs prior to and without the Son's Spirit during those earlier Mortal Epochs?

And that human mind is certainly capable of moral choice and religious experience prior to the birth of soul, especially prior to the planetary gift of the Son's Spirit? And that religious experience and soul building choices can and do happen without cognitive awareness of having a faith or truth based religious experience?

And that religious experience and birth of soul and circles progress does not depend upon accuracy of belief or knowledge of universe reality? And that the soul is independently capable of growth and progress, by cognitive choices of mind, but without conscious awareness of mortal mind?

The experience of faith and awareness of God's Spirit within is a feeling of presence and assurance and affection and dependence and relationship I think more than anything which might be articulated. Such a feeling of the Divine presence and connection to the circuits of personality, mind, and spirit is certainly the beginnings of human metaphysics and the search for meanings and understanding.

And glad you're here kat!! I like the way you think.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:15 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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The author specifies that this choice must be developed, which assumes that the human being entering the seventh circle has been functioning as a personality prior to entering, but with undeveloped free will powers. Since a personality can only choose from what they are conscious of, I have to conclude that the time must wait until a child has developed a broader consciousness of moral possibilities from which it can choose.


It may be that "personality" is used a bit differently by different authors. As you use it above it seems to me that "personhood" might be a more apt word. One of the revelators defines personality and, as I remember, it is the configuration of factors or parameters that give a being their impulses, drives, will, aspirations. reactions, etc., In that context it doesn't contain the energy or motion to put that configuration into effect.

I'm not convinced that a person can only choose what they are conscious of. There is an exercise of will and choice in the super conscious realm for sure I would say. Especially there we can collaborate with the TA or not.


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@ kat

you took offense when i said that the case of andon and fonta doesn't really apply to anyone since, so i was trying to argue from your angle and come up with a potential similar scenario that would apply...that's the "other couple". and i failed to really come up with one.

i would expand the definition of moral responsibility beyond the will to one of status, the status of deserving to be held accountable for your choices, whether that be blame or reward.


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fanofVan wrote:
So...are we agreed then that the seventh circle may be entered prior to soul birth


It is my contention that entering the seventh circle is equivalent to soul birth because it includes the Holy Spirit, according to the phrase "born of the spirit".

fanofVan wrote:
and the arrival of the TA when a world has not yet received the Son's Spirit? And that soul birth also occurs prior to the Son's Spirit during those earlier Mortal Epochs?


As I understand, the criteria for the presence of a soul is seven adjutants and the Holy Spirit. Other spirit influences are not necessary.

fanofVan wrote:
And that human mind is certainly capable of moral choice and religious experience prior to the birth of soul, especially prior to the planetary gift of the Son's Spirit?


Human mind by definition is superanimal and subspiritual, which is the mental realm of morality. The other ingredient is personality which is inherently moral since it's attribute is self-consciousness. Philosophically self-consciousness is not possible without also being conscious of other selves. Reference:

(194:6) 16:8.6 Self-consciousness consists in intellectual awareness of personality actuality; it includes the ability to recognize the reality of other personalities. It indicates capacity for individualized experience in and with cosmic realities, equivalating to the attainment of identity status in the personality relationships of the universe. Self-consciousness connotes recognition of the actuality of mind ministration and the realization of relative independence of creative and determinative free will.

However, I doubt true religious experience is possible without a soul. What would be the source of such a personality experience if it were not the soul? I suppose there is more than one definition for religious experience, but mine is in line with genuine personal religious experience facilitated by superhuman insight, which by necessity demands a superhuman (superadjutant) reference point. The Holy Spirit is that superadjutant reference point and the only place the Holy Spirit is found is in the soul.

fanofVan wrote:
And that religious experience and soul building choices can and do happen without cognitive awareness of having a faith or truth based religious experience?


Cognitive awareness is a criteria for making a wholehearted decision. However, it is not necessary to understand or comprehend the faith or truth behind the making of such a decision. One must be able to recognize the value of acting out a decision, but it is not necessary to know why it has value, just that it is value. That is why faith is so important. How many times have you said, "I don't know why I did that, but it seemed like the right thing to do." Only afterwards do you sometimes come to understand the value of your actions, and sometimes not. That is why it is written that the consequences are God's.

fanofVan wrote:
And that religious experience and birth of soul and circles progress does not depend upon accuracy of belief or knowledge of universe reality?


I agree. Evil means incomplete, therefore it is a relative term. Incomplete understanding of meanings is a form of immaturity and we do not become mature in an instant. Meanings evolve like everything else, we must be patient with ourselves and others.

fanofVan wrote:
And glad you're here kat!! I like the way you think.


Thank you. I am also glad to be here where people enjoy sharing ideas and the search for meanings.


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Riktare wrote:
One of the revelators defines personality and, as I remember, it is the configuration of factors or parameters that give a being their impulses, drives, will, aspirations. reactions, etc., In that context it doesn't contain the energy or motion to put that configuration into effect


I'm not familiar with that reference. Are you referring to personality as pattern? I agree personality has will, but impulses, drives and reactions are all part of mind ministry. Mind is one of the parts of personhood or selfhood which the personality pattern unifies by using its power of will in making choices regarding those impulses, drives and reactions.

Free will is not an energy, force or motion, it is a power. In the Foreword the author describes two types of power, one type is sovereignty. The power of free will is a sovereign power belonging to the personality. References:

(9.4) 0:6.2 ENERGY we use as an all-inclusive term applied to spiritual, mindal, and material realms. Force is also thus broadly used. Power is ordinarily limited to the designation of the electronic level of material or linear-gravity-responsive matter in the grand universe. Power is also employed to designate sovereignty. We cannot follow your generally accepted definitions of force, energy, and power. There is such paucity of language that we must assign multiple meanings to these terms.

(10.4) 0:6.12 In contrast to the aspect of the total, pattern discloses the individual aspect of energy and of personality. Personality or identity forms are patterns resultant from energy (physical, spiritual, or mindal) but are not inherent therein. That quality of energy or of personality by virtue of which pattern is caused to appear may be attributed to God — Deity — to Paradise force endowment, to the coexistence of personality and power.

Riktare wrote:
I'm not convinced that a person can only choose what they are conscious of.


I based my statement on this reference:

(377.4) 34:3.8 One is free to choose and act only within the realm of one's consciousness.

Riktare wrote:
There is an exercise of will and choice in the super conscious realm for sure I would say. Especially there we can collaborate with the TA or not.


Are you referring to this reference:

(1208.2) 110:5.3 During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.

Note the specification: "fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness".


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Makalu wrote:
you took offense when i said that the case of andon and fonta doesn't really apply to anyone since,


I'm so sorry you felt that way. I have not been offended at any time by anything anyone has said on this forum. I was merely confused. I am not offended by my own confusion, simply curious to find a way to become unconfused.

Makalu wrote:
would expand the definition of moral responsibility beyond the will to one of status, the status of deserving to be held accountable for your choices, whether that be blame or reward.


I think you're talking about justice here, not morality. They are two different things. The word "deserving" implies justice.


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well i didn't perceive any strong offense and could have picked a better word for your disagreement.

responsibility implies accountability yes, and attaining the status of moral responsibility is somewhat akin to legal age and sanity requirements for being held accountable for your choices and actions.

do note that morality..the awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons and discernment of conduct levels with discriminating choice between them is a far cry from the totality of personhood involved in the circles and the descriptions of the two are different for a reason.


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Makalu wrote:
responsibility implies accountability yes,


Yes, I agree.

Makalu wrote:
attaining the status of moral responsibility is somewhat akin to legal age and sanity requirements for being held accountable for your choices and actions.


No. I do not agree. Legal age and sanity requirements are justice determinations made by the group. Moral responsibility is an individual phenomenon and only the individual is accountable. This is why morality cannot be legislated by the group. A group may agree to a certain moral standard and an individual may choose to abide by that standard, but the responsibility and accountability belongs to the individual alone. The attitude the group has towards an individual's morality is a matter of justice. The justice of the universe is tempered by mercy. Human justice has a long way to go before it understands mercy.

Makalu wrote:
do note that morality..the awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons and discernment of conduct levels with discriminating choice between them is a far cry from the totality of personhood involved in the circles and the descriptions of the two are different for a reason.


Do you mean the sum total of personality realization on a material world, the completion of all seven psychic circles? Entrance into the seventh circle marks the beginning of true personality function. True personality function, I believe describes the developed power of free-will choice tempered by wisdom. Sonship status.

Jesus explained to Ganid that animals cannot develop personality because they cannot communicate ideas, however humans are capable. A child may have a personality but needs to develop it over time by utilizing the gift of mind ministry. Let me explain also that developing the personality does not mean changing it. The personality never changes but its ability to utilize and unify the parts of its personhood develop over time. Additionally, the body and brain of a child need to develop the capacity for higher thought (wisdom), which takes about five or six years.

When all seven adjutants are being utilized, the child is considered to have a human personality with superhuman potential. The personality has developed sufficiently for the potential of sonship. All that child needs to do is make a wholehearted, unselfish, moral decision, like Jesus did as a boy, indicating both an awareness of the possibility of, and a desire for the actuality of, higher personality functioning. The superhuman Holy Spirit then arrives to provide further potentials for that individual to fulfill in its new status as faith-son of the Father. That is the birth of the soul, a new realm of potential for personality development or personality realization.


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i only said its somewhat akin to the legal thing to help you grasp the concept...it wasnt meant to be dissected as an example of it. it's not correct to think of morality, an awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons and the responsibilities to the group that arise from that, as something apart from others. and justice/mercy is a completely separate issue than accountability.

the revelators didn't throw out a new term "moral responsibility" and then expect us to define it btw

i mean that circle status at any level "has to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement, which demands the harmonious function of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof...like the first moral choice at soul birth.

and on that we will disagree.


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katroofjebus wrote:
I'm not familiar with that reference. Are you referring to personality as pattern? I agree personality has will, but impulses, drives and reactions are all part of mind ministry.


We're running into the limitations of language here. Of course I didn't mean the aspects of mind ministry, nor any aspect of development, environment, nature, nurture, etc., when I used the words impulses, drives and reactions. I suppose we could take a cue from the revelators and coin the words pre-impulses, pre-drives and pre-inclinations to refer to those aspects of pattern and configuration that personality consists of and which give each of us our individuality and which are probably the basis for our unique creative prerogatives. Those are the predispositions that differentiate identical twins, for example.

katroofjebus wrote:
(9.4) 0:6.2 ENERGY we use as an all-inclusive term applied to spiritual, mindal, and material realms. Force is also thus broadly used. Power is ordinarily limited to the designation of the electronic level of material or linear-gravity-responsive matter in the grand universe. Power is also employed to designate sovereignty. We cannot follow your generally accepted definitions of force, energy, and power. There is such paucity of language that we must assign multiple meanings to these terms.

(10.4) 0:6.12 In contrast to the aspect of the total, pattern discloses the individual aspect of energy and of personality. Personality or identity forms are patterns resultant from energy (physical, spiritual, or mindal) but are not inherent therein. That quality of energy or of personality by virtue of which pattern is caused to appear may be attributed to God — Deity — to Paradise force endowment, to the coexistence of personality and power.


Good references. Also this stating the "arrangement of energies" which I had interpreted and remembered as a "configuration".

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42:12.9 (483.9) Mind is always creative. The mind endowment of an individual animal, mortal, morontian, spirit ascender, or finality attainer is always competent to produce a suitable and serviceable body for the living creature identity. But the presence phenomenon of a personality or the pattern of an identity, as such, is not a manifestation of energy, either physical, mindal, or spiritual. The personality form is the pattern aspect of a living being; it connotes the arrangement of energies, and this, plus life and motion, is the mechanism of creature existence.


katroofjebus wrote:
I based my statement on this reference:

(377.4) 34:3.8 One is free to choose and act only within the realm of one's consciousness.

Are you referring to this reference:

(1208.2) 110:5.3 During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.

Note the specification: "fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness".


It's difficult for me to determine if one is officially "conscious" while much super conscious activity is ongoing. From experience it feels to me as if one's focus is switched to the super consciousness at the time, but that is no doubt some kind of overlap between normal consciousness and super consciousness. My impression is very strong that one may choose during those sessions of overlap - that somehow episodes of overlap actually contribute to one's will and decisions. I think your last reference may have more to due with being asleep than excluding daytime episodes of super conscious activity. I speculate that during the initial contact, one of the human contact participants asked (offline) a question directed to a revelator about the TA potentially acting against the human will when a person is not in a state where will is actively functioning.


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Riktare wrote:
It's difficult for me to determine if one is officially "conscious" while much super conscious activity is ongoing. From experience it feels to me as if one's focus is switched to the super consciousness at the time, but that is no doubt some kind of overlap between normal consciousness and super consciousness.


I agree that we never experience an abrupt change in mind ministry. It is written that the spirits of worship and wisdom cross the threshold into spiritual mind ministry, which I believe to be the soul, so it is likely that consciousness can cross that threshold as well. Another reference indicates that in order to reach the superconscious mind, thought must be directed from the conscious mind below, through the consciousness we call the soul, to the mind above where the Thought Adjuster exists. It is my contention that this type of thinking may be naturally driven but must be consciously chosen with free-will desire. Even though the superconscious is not conscious, the desire to get there must be conscious. I don't think any of this happens by accident or synchronicity. Man must yearn to become more than he is in order to succeed. References:

(739.3) 65:7.7 The adjutants function exclusively in the evolution of experiencing mind up to the level of the sixth phase, the spirit of worship. At this level there occurs that inevitable overlapping of ministry — the phenomenon of the higher reaching down to co-ordinate with the lower in anticipation of subsequent attainment of advanced levels of development. And still additional spirit ministry accompanies the action of the seventh and last adjutant, the spirit of wisdom. Throughout the ministry of the spirit world the individual never experiences abrupt transitions of spirit co-operation; always are these changes gradual and reciprocal.

(379.3) 34:5.3 Mortal man first experiences the ministry of the Spirit in conjunction with mind when the purely animal mind of evolutionary creatures develops reception capacity for the adjutants of worship and of wisdom. This ministry of the sixth and seventh adjutants indicates mind evolution crossing the threshold of spiritual ministry. And immediately are such minds of worship- and wisdom-function included in the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister.

(1003.3) 92:0.3 2. The adjutant of wisdom — the manifestation in a worshipful mind of the tendency to direct its adoration in higher channels of expression and toward ever-expanding concepts of Deity reality.

(2097:2) 196:3.31 The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man's greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.

(1216:6)  111:1.5 Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soul—the morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.


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Excuse me here, once again, but Roof Jebus identifying four aspects of the choice made by human individual. All decisions are individual decisions, made from personal considerations. If consideration does not overcome motivation, what kind of a choice is that? A complication one, maybe a result of other affairs perhaps? What about group decision: first the human individual choice to become part of a group, or born part of a group. As a child, the family group Representative, and group dynamics, overarch the ability of child to make independent or individuated choice, as a sapling in the forest has a view of the tall trees with much shadow under canopy. It is only after sapling tasted enough sunlight, to know what direction to bend, to receive enough of a portion of light to continue its own ways. You make a choice but how do you trust seraphic planetary government to honour it, only if you are a citizen of that government. You exercise civil liberty in your own land/state, in the wisest most carefullest means possible.

"Every choice must come out of some other set of decisions, only to give progress to the true and righteous traditions of evolution/ascencion." The other set of decisions is what the human indvidual must take into consideration before making a choice which lead to progress, and often justify decision with past decisions used as precedent. There is a chain of decision (an unbroken linkage) that stem from original choices which go back to the very first original acts of will by God who was originally an undivided Deity. All of the choices that Jesus made are honoured by seraphic planetary government (and even is the life of Jesus Archetypal in the Supreme Sense). What about the choice or the plan to send universal bestowal of Father-Fragment upon Urantians and all mortal inhabitants of Nebadon, after the Spirit of Truth was garnered by the Divine Minister and bestowed upon all faith-individuals, human believers. Such decisions overarch our own conduct: our own decisions are amended according to our understanding of order in the universe.

Even in the First Chapter from Book of Genesis, when Moses tells his Children the story of creation, Moses is telling God's actions as if God has a human voice: "Let there be Light; Let there be X". The Light is obviously something that the Unversal Father does not need personally, but perhaps would be necessary provision for His Children (starting with the Eternal Son) In the Book of Genesis , it sounds like God is making choices, having an entire pre-eternity to formulate the Perfect Plan, even if our remembrance of God's establishment of Personalities who Govern the grand Universe, is told from imperfect imagery, even in the perspective of the earth as the centre of God's Kingdom. We do not necessarily understand the exact order-sequence of choices that God made in order to establish our current modality of existence, but we trust that that there is such order, that "every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end."

So that when primitive humans tread the stage of Urantia, the ability of choice, it would be understood, is according to choice as it is understood or detected from the spiritual administration, and this honouration was what mankind become "guardians of wisdom and worship", the masters of their own future evolution, having received this from the custody of the Life Carriers and the 12 Melchizedek Supervisors. Eventually, humanity will be able to make choices amenable to the administration of the seraphic planetary government, and receive the full umbrage of responsibility regarding the approach to order in society and tutelage of civil liberties i.e. "the right to know" "the right to cooperate" "the right to hold an opinion". Humans cannot abra cadabra and make new decisions like that. Only if a choice is also God's will, and Jesus did append his own choices to this factor, could it become a final reality in the universe.

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