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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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both and more...if you have a point to make then do so.

be aware some here believe the birth of the soul equates automatic salvation and no conscious effort is required to attain it, only conscious effort to deny it


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Some of us wonder about the many levels of consciousness, including that of soul itself and by itself and wonder about the subtleties of faith response and soul growth and wonder about how difficult it is to destroy the soul in this brief life considering God's patience and mercy and affection and the preservation and perpetuation of potential in the universe.

Others here are quite judgmental and demanding of their fellows and do not expect so many mortal survivors to join them in their very special status and "conscious" choices and pious commitments and sanctimonious demands of others.

Some of us think and hope that the Mansion World doors open wide to receive those with even a "flicker" for patient mercy ministry, rehabilitation, and education as described in the UB. Others here believe that which is required for fusion is also required for the tadpoles of time to survive this life.

Some of us define the personal religious experience broadly and inclusively while some believe it requires specific behaviors and awareness and description.

One day we will all be surprised by reality. I pray the more optimistic view holds true and our paternal creators make those allowances for ignorance, confusions, immaturities, fears, superstitions, and material distractions described in the UB....as opposed to those demands of the self righteous and impatient tadpoles judging other tadpoles!

After all, children and primitives have religious experience and give birth to soul without any understanding or description or cognition that they can describe of the experience of being connected to and motivated by the spirit within. Remember the caveman! Some here lack perspective.

Just sayin'.....

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:47 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
the birth of the soul indicates an inherent universal urge of mind to do the will of god, but we aren't conscious of it at that stage.


What you wrote suggests that the mind is responsible for soul birth because of some intrinsic mechanical ability to evolve all on its own in that direction. Although I agree that mind is intrinsically responsive to spirit, no matter what stage of evolution the mind may find itself, it is powerless to make a decision without the presence of personality which is the sole source of free will. A soul cannot be born without a personality making a free-will decision, and in order for a decision to be made, the personality must be conscious of the options available for free-will choosing. Hence, the birth of the soul is dependent upon a conscious decision. If the moral decision responsible for soul birth is conscious then the religious experience resulting from acting on that decision is also conscious.

This reference defines free will:

(1431.2) 130:2.7 Will is the deliberate choice of a self-conscious being which leads to decision-conduct based on intelligent reflection.

This reference explains that free will and self-consciousness are attributes of personality:

(194.5) 16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

This reference explains that free-will decisions can only be made when one is conscious of the options:

(377.4) 34:3.8 One is free to choose and act only within the realm of one's consciousness.

This references describes the birth of the soul after a "moral personality decision":

(1186.8 ) 108:2.1 Though the Adjusters volunteer for service as soon as the personality forecasts have been relayed to Divinington, they are not actually assigned until the human subjects make their first moral personality decision.

This reference explains what a moral decision is. It explains that the mind chooses by personality free will. It also defines a moral personality decision as a religious experience:

(1131.7) 103:2.8 When a moral being chooses to be unselfish when confronted by the urge to be selfish, that is primitive religious experience. No animal can make such a choice; such a decision is both human and religious. It embraces the fact of God-consciousness and exhibits the impulse of social service, the basis of the brotherhood of man. When mind chooses a right moral judgment by an act of the free will, such a decision constitutes a religious experience.

In summary:
Free will is an attribute of personality.
Free-will choices must be conscious.
A soul is born when a personality makes a free-will, conscious unselfish moral decision.
The making of a free-will conscious unselfish moral decision constitutes a religious experience.
If the moral decision is conscious then the religious experience is also conscious since it is the decision itself which is the religious experience regardless of how primitive.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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fanofVan wrote:
After all, children and primitives have religious experience and give birth to soul without any understanding or description or cognition that they can describe of the experience of being connected to and motivated by the spirit within.


I agree. There is nothing written that says one must comprehend or understand a religious experience.


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What you wrote suggests that the mind is responsible for soul birth because of some intrinsic mechanical ability to evolve all on its own in that direction.


it's intrinsic but not mechanical...

Quote:
P1218:6, 111:2.8 The midway creatures have long denominated this evolving soul of man the mid-mind in contradistinction to the lower or material mind and the higher or cosmic mind. This mid-mind is really a morontia phenomenon since it exists in the realm between the material and the spiritual. The potential of such a morontia evolution is inherent in the two universal urges of mind: the impulse of the finite mind of the creature to know God and attain the divinity of the Creator, and the impulse of the infinite mind of the Creator to know man and attain the experience of the creature.

P1218:7, 111:2.9 This supernal transaction of evolving the immortal soul is made possible because the mortal mind is first personal and second is in contact with superanimal realities; it possesses a supermaterial endowment of cosmic ministry which insures the evolution of a moral nature capable of making moral decisions, thereby effecting a bona fide creative contact with the associated spiritual ministries and with the indwelling Thought Adjuster.


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Note in the reference you posted that it is the potential that is inherent. The actual requires a free-will, conscious, moral personality decision.

(1218:6) 111:2.8 The potential of such a morontia evolution is inherent in the two universal urges of mind: the impulse of the finite mind of the creature to know God and attain the divinity of the Creator, and the impulse of the infinite mind of the Creator to know man and attain the experience of the creature.

Here again, note the reference to the fact that soul birth requires a mind that is first personal meaning a mind being used by a personality for free-will decision making.

(1218:7) 111:2.9 This supernal transaction of evolving the immortal soul is made possible because the mortal mind is first personal and second is in contact with superanimal realities


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it's evolution is an inherent impulse of mind...obviously that requires a mind.

if anyone here experienced a free will conscious choice to birth a soul i'd love to hear about it.


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Makalu wrote:
it's evolution is an inherent impulse of mind...obviously that requires a mind.


Yes, the potential for morontial evolution is intrinsic in mind, but not the actual morontial evolution.

Mind does evolve. The adjutants all intrinsically evolve but only so far. If mind evolution is the only thing necessary for the birth of the morontia soul, then it's just a matter of time before the higher animals evolve souls too, and there's little evidence to support such a thing.

Clearly there must be a triggering event to activate the intrinsic potential of morontial evolution which begins with the birth of the soul, or mid-mind. That event requires the presence of personality free will to actualize the mind's intrinsic potential. Animals, even though minded, do not have personality, therefore animals are not moral creatures and cannot use their minds to make free-will, conscious moral decisions which are required to activate the intrinsic potentials giving rise to the soul, or mid-mind.

This is a reference that explains the intrinsic morality attribute of personality:

(1225.11) 112:0.11 9. It is characterized by morality — awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons. It discerns conduct levels and choosingly discriminates between them.


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Makalu wrote:
if anyone here experienced a free will conscious choice to birth a soul i'd love to hear about it.


This would also require active memory, another subject. The moral decision to be unselfish is conscious at the time. It may have been forgotten. The actual birth of the soul is not conscious because it is growth. Growth is never conscious. References:

(66:3) 5:3.7 The spiritual growth of the soul takes place wholly independently of the intellectual self-consciousness.

(1097.4) 100:3.7 Growth is always unconscious, be it physical, intellectual, or spiritual.


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we know that the triggering event is the first moral choice

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The first moral choice of the human child is automatically indicated in the seventh mind-adjutant and registers instantly, by way of the local universe
Creative Spirit, over the universal mindgravity circuit of the Conjoint Actor in the presence of the Master Spirit of superuniverse jurisdiction, who forthwith dispatches this intelligence to Divinington. Adjusters reach their human subjects on Urantia, on the average, just prior to the sixth birthday. In the present generation it is running five years, ten months, and four days; that is, on the 2,134th day of terrestrial life.


a moral decision to be unselfish isn't a decision to birth a soul and soul-consciousness comes after mind-consciousness...the idea of God precedes the ideal

and btw a lot of kids go thru a phase of extreme altrusim at a much younger age when they want to hand you their toys....

regarding this:

Quote:
Yes, the potential for morontial evolution is intrinsic in mind, but not the actual morontial evolution.


actually it is an intrinsically inevitable result as the next paragraph says but i didnt post it because you've already done so:

Quote:
P1218:8, 111:2.10 The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation -- the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.


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Makalu wrote:
a moral decision to be unselfish isn't a decision to birth a soul


Yes, I agree. An unselfish moral decision is simply a decision to put another personality's welfare ahead of your own. It's a child's decision to be unselfish when confronted with an impulse to be selfish that triggers soul birth. Of course the child is not thinking about giving birth to a soul, the child is not thinking of the self at all in such a circumstance.

Some moral decisions don't appear to be moralistic at all yet they do trigger the birth of a soul. Consider Andon and Fonta whose soul-triggering decision was to get away from their inferiors. Today that would be considered selfish, but apparently it was the Father's will. Morality changes, it is not absolute.

Makalu wrote:
soul-consciousness comes after mind-consciousness


Yes, I agree. Soul consciousness is proportional to soul growth. Reference:

(1219:3) 111:3.4 Both the human mind and the divine Adjuster are conscious of the presence and differential nature of the evolving soul—the Adjuster fully, the mind partially. The soul becomes increasingly conscious of both the mind and the Adjuster as associated identities, proportional to its own evolutionary growth.

Makalu wrote:
and btw a lot of kids go thru a phase of extreme altrusim at a much younger age when they want to hand you their toys..


This reference describes a normal child's natural nature, first egoistic then altruistic. The personality of a child must develop its inherent moral capacity before it can consciously choose to be altruistic. That development is precipitated by the mind's ability to learn from experience and exercise wisdom which signals the arrival at the seventh psychic circle.

(1131.8 ) 103:2.9 But before a child has developed sufficiently to acquire moral capacity and therefore to be able to choose altruistic service, he has already developed a strong and well-unified egoistic nature. And it is this factual situation that gives rise to the theory of the struggle between the "higher" and the "lower" natures, between the "old man of sin" and the "new nature" of grace. Very early in life the normal child begins to learn that it is "more blessed to give than to receive." 

Makalu wrote:
actually it is an intrinsically inevitable result as the next paragraph says


Yes, I believe the reference indicates that the soul is the inevitable "joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe". The mind is dominated by a human, or a personality, with free will who craves to know the nature of the Father, also known as faith, and is willing to work with him by gifting the power of his or her free will to do the Father's will. Free will is necessary for "domination" and for the transfer of dominance, it's the mover and shaker in the liaison. The Thought Adjuster's pre-personality has a non-dominant pre-will. The choice by the human personality is to embrace that pre-will, adopt it, activate it and make it dominant by living it. The result is soul growth.


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i'm not sure the arrival of the spirit of wisdom equates to entering the seventh circle which is all seven adjutants acting under the spirit of wisdom and much, much more, but it's not important. certainly andon and fonta were exhibiting the influence of multiple adjutants by first recognizing their superiority, pondering leaving, and acting upon it, and that did occasion "an immediate and new order of mobilization of the seven adjutant mindspirits". being the first humans here, and the hope that they would soon exhibit the spirit of wisdom was a matter of unusual spiritual import for this planet and not really applicable to anyone living since.

Quote:
Upon the making of a supreme decision of unusual spiritual import. Such human behavior in a personal planetary crisis usually is attended by the immediate arrival of the waiting Adjuster.


anyway yeah infants can be "me, me, me" 24/7 it seems like


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Makalu wrote:
i'm not sure the arrival of the spirit of wisdom equates to entering the seventh circle


I think the spirit of wisdom may first urge the mind to delineate the difference between good and evil. When a decision is made for good over evil (moral decision), the individual enters the seventh circle with the spirit of wisdom as the coordinator of the united adjutants and the birth of the soul. Reference:

(1210.8 ) 110:6.13 The seventh circle. This level is entered when human beings develop the powers of personal choice, individual decision, moral responsibility, and the capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality. This signifies the united function of the seven adjutant mind-spirits under the direction of the spirit of wisdom, the encircuitment of the mortal creature in the influence of the Holy Spirit, and, on Urantia, the first functioning of the Spirit of Truth, together with the reception of a Thought Adjuster in the mortal mind. Entrance upon the seventh circle constitutes a mortal creature a truly potential citizen of the local universe.

All seven adjutants under the direction of the spirit of wisdom is the signal for the coming of the Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth and Thought Adjuster, or soul birth. This next reference indicates that the mind must be prepared by all seven adjutants prior to the arrival of the Holy Spirit who creates the soul, the arena for the Adjuster and Spirit of Truth. It also reveals that the spirit of wisdom provides the mind mechanism for discernment of good and evil. I think that is why Jesus taught to pray for wisdom.

(1187.1) 108:2.2 The Adjusters cannot invade the mortal mind until it has been duly prepared by the indwelling ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits and encircuited in the Holy Spirit. And it requires the co-ordinate function of all seven adjutants to thus qualify the human mind for the reception of an Adjuster. Creature mind must exhibit the worship outreach and indicate wisdom function by exhibiting the ability to choose between the emerging values of good and evil — moral choice.

Makalu wrote:
and the hope that they would soon exhibit the spirit of wisdom was a matter of unusual spiritual import for this planet and not really applicable to anyone living since.


I'm sorry I don't understand that. How is it not applicable to anyone living since?


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well see if the functioning of the Spirit of Truth is a necessary part of attaining the 7th circle then it's hard to see how andon and fonta or anyone else before it was bestowed a million years later achieved that. and adjusters don't automatically come to every normal mind until after the Spirit of Truth is bestowed too, yet millions of (normal) people still acquired a soul before that time, so i'm not buying the idea that the first moral decision alone (soul birth) equates to the 7th circle.

the case of andon and fonta isn't really applicable to others unless a superior couple leaving the group to breed a superior clan happened to be a first moral choice and a wiser one than staying and upstepping the powers that be, so to speak. and even then i'm not sure it would be considered a matter of great spiritual, planetary importance...a new superior clan of humans isn't as consequential as the first humans were.


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Makalu wrote:
well see if the functioning of the Spirit of Truth is a necessary part of attaining the 7th circle then it's hard to see how andon and fonta or anyone else before it was bestowed a million years later achieved that.


Am I understanding you right, that you don't think Andon and Fonta had Thought Adjusters? If so, these references should clear that up:

(711.7) 63:1.4 The decision of Andon and Fonta to flee from the Primates tribes implies a quality of mind far above the baser intelligence which characterized so many of their later descendants who stooped to mate with their retarded cousins of the simian tribes. But their vague feeling of being something more than mere animals was due to the possession of personality and was augmented by the indwelling presence of the Thought Adjusters.

(717.1) 63:6.9 Although both Andon and Fonta had received Thought Adjusters, as had many of their descendants, it was not until the days of Onagar that the Adjusters and guardian seraphim came in great numbers to Urantia. This was, indeed, the golden age of primitive man.

(735.8 ) 65:4.9 These Melchizedeks came at the time Andon and Fonta made the decisions which enabled Thought Adjusters to indwell their mortal minds.

As you can see, the Spirit of Truth is not necessary to receive a Thought Adjuster. The only things necessary, besides actually making wise moral decisions, are the united function of all seven adjutants under the direction of the spirit of wisdom and the Holy Spirit. I already provided the references for that.

Makalu wrote:
so i'm not buying the idea that the first moral decision alone (soul birth) equates to the 7th circle.


What other thing would be required? Consider what happened to Jesus:

(1357.5) 123:2.1 In something more than a year after the return to Nazareth the boy Jesus arrived at the age of his first personal and wholehearted moral decision; and there came to abide with him a Thought Adjuster, a divine gift of the Paradise Father, which had aforetime served with Machiventa Melchizedek, thus gaining the experience of functioning in connection with the incarnation of a supermortal being living in the likeness of mortal flesh.

Are you suggesting that a Thought Adjuster could arrive without him entering the seventh psychic circle? I cannot agree with that. I have already provided the reference where it is written that the Adjusters cannot invade the mind until it has been prepared by the united function of all seven adjutants and has been encircuited by the Holy Spirit. I have also already provided the reference which describes the seventh psychic circle as the united function of all seven adjutants and the encircuitment by the Holy Spirit.

It appears to me to be one and the same event, all simultaneous: the wholehearted conscious moral decision based upon the worship outreach and discernment of wisdom, the down reach of the Holy Spirit to create the soul and then the housing within that soul of the Thought Adjuster. On Urantia since Pentecost, the Spirit of Truth also arrives at the same time.

Makalu wrote:
the case of andon and fonta isn't really applicable to others unless a superior couple leaving the group to breed a superior clan happened to be a first moral choice and a wiser one than staying and upstepping the powers that be, so to speak. and even then i'm not sure it would be considered a matter of great spiritual, planetary importance...a new superior clan of humans isn't as consequential as the first humans were.


Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding that. Andon and Fonta's decision was purposeful, conscious and reflective. It was based upon the outreach of the spirit of worship looking for value and upon wisdom helping them identify the superior option over the inferior option. Their choice was clearly in line with the Father's will. What is more important than the Father's will?


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