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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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we've been tasked with god-consciousness which yields assurances greater than the experience of faith:
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196:3.34 (2097.2) The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.



the unification of total experience is our task. and the papers aren't nearly as skeptical about the true capabilities of the human imagination as bradly:

Quote:
196:3.31 (2096.7) In the realm of religious experience, spiritual possibility is potential reality. Man’s forward spiritual urge is not a psychic illusion. All of man’s universe romancing may not be fact, but much, very much, is truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
we've been tasked with god-consciousness which yields assurances greater than the experience of faith:
Quote:
196:3.34 (2097.2) The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.



the unification of total experience is our task. and the papers aren't nearly as skeptical about the true capabilities of the human imagination as bradly:

Quote:
196:3.31 (2096.7) In the realm of religious experience, spiritual possibility is potential reality. Man’s forward spiritual urge is not a psychic illusion. All of man’s universe romancing may not be fact, but much, very much, is truth.


Me? Skeptical? Of what? Human potential? The very point of this topic I started?

My constant critic. Oh well....

:? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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not talking about potential...talking about reality and this repeating theme of yours

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Faith is truth even when many of the beliefs about God and reality are false.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
not talking about potential...talking about reality and this repeating theme of yours

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Faith is truth even when many of the beliefs about God and reality are false.


Perhaps what he means is: Faith will lead one to truth even if one's beliefs about God and reality are false.

I like your reference to the meaning of God consciousness. "God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God."

If religious experience involves knowing God, wouldn't it be a conscious experience? Is it possible to know anything without it being a part of one's consciousness? Is it possible to make choices for something if you're not conscious of it?

What do you suppose the author means by "pre-existent truth"?


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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yeah consciousness, superconsciousness and conscious choice are all big elements in the papers. whereas the unconscious birth of the soul at the time of the first moral choice doesn't bear a lot of weight alone:

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Morality without religion fails to reveal ultimate goodness, and it also fails to provide for the survival of even its own moral values.


i'd say the pre-existent truth there is the experience of the fact of Gods presence...knowing that God exists.


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Makalu wrote:
the unconscious birth of the soul at the time of the first moral choice doesn't bear a lot of weight alone:


I think the actual achievement of soul birth is unconscious because it is a type of evolutionary growth into the morontia realm. But the moral choosing which precipitates it must be conscious if it is to be considered a free-will choice. Presented with good and evil and making a choice for good requires a conscious mental discernment of the difference between the two. I think religious experience comes as the result of choosing something other than evil. Such a choice precipitates a spiritual invasion into the mind arena resulting in either the birth of a soul or it's growth. The birth, or growth, is not conscious but the religious experience of "spiritual invasion" is conscious as it is coupled to the moral choice.

(2095.4) 196:3.20 Every time man makes a reflective moral choice, he immediately experiences a new divine invasion of his soul. Moral choosing constitutes religion as the motive of inner response to outer conditions. But such a real religion is not a purely subjective experience. It signifies the whole of the subjectivity of the individual engaged in a meaningful and intelligent response to total objectivity — the universe and its Maker.

Perhaps "pre-existant truth" means that God has found us first?

(2078.2)195:6.16   Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing “the Father’s will.” And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.

(1733.6) 155:6.18 You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.

(1440.2) 130:8.2 Said Jesus: “If you truly want to find God, that desire is in itself evidence that you have already found him. Your trouble is not that you cannot find God, for the Father has already found you; your trouble is simply that you do not know God.


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well it's taken for granted there that we're making good moral choices with survival value. bad is a moral choice also, and the papers don't specify that the birth of the soul arrives with one or the other. i see it as when the childs heart recognizes that there is such a thing as morally good and bad behavior instead of just things that i'm allowed to do and things that get me in trouble.

i don't think we experience the fact that God found us first until we first experience what i said above and that's why in your quote there Jesus says the problem is the person is not god-knowing.


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Makalu wrote:
well it's taken for granted there that we're making good moral choices with survival value. bad is a moral choice also, and the papers don't specify that the birth of the soul arrives with one or the other.


Are you saying that it's possible for a soul to be born by a person choosing evil when given a choice between good and evil?


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Makalu wrote:
well it's taken for granted there that we're making good moral choices with survival value. bad is a moral choice also, and the papers don't specify that the birth of the soul arrives with one or the other. i see it as when the childs heart recognizes that there is such a thing as morally good and bad behavior instead of just things that i'm allowed to do and things that get me in trouble.

i don't think we experience the fact that God found us first until we first experience what i said above and that's why in your quote there Jesus says the problem is the person is not god-knowing.


The soul is born by immoral or self important and self first choice, eh? Wow.

We are told evil has zero reality or survival potential but you claim it gives birth to soul?


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:38 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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katroofjebus wrote:

Are you saying that it's possible for a soul to be born by a person choosing evil when given a choice between good and evil?


i'm not sure, i'm saying how it could be possible...it would relate more to a constitutional make-up of soul material i guess. i would imagine that by that age a child has made a number of choices that we label morally good or evil so it's not merely a matter of making a choice between good and bad, the difference is the child has come to recognize the meaning and value of relative "morality". it's not a major issue to me other than that whatever the choice is at that time, it's not a conscious spiritual choice.


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Makalu wrote:
it's not a major issue to me other than that whatever the choice is at that time, it's not a conscious spiritual choice.


Can we agree that doing the will of the Father must be consciously and freely chosen?

(1802.4) 163:2.8 Thus always it was and forever will be: Men must arrive at their own decisions. There is a certain range of the freedom of choice which mortals may exercise. The forces of the spiritual world will not coerce man; they allow him to go the way of his own choosing.


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just one reminder:

Quote:
The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.


i agree that seeking to find the will of God is a conscious choice, and not easily made for a lot of people. in the papers to do the will of God boils down to a willingness to share the inner life with God which involves a continuous process of conscious and unconscious choices as spiritual habits form. all of the following are a conscious experience:

Quote:
1. The intellectual capacity for knowing God—God-consciousness.
2. The spiritual urge to find God—God seeking.
3. The personality craving to be like God—the wholehearted desire to do the Father’s will.


and:

Quote:
110:3.6 (1206.4) ....You can consciously augment Adjuster harmony by:

110:3.7 (1206.5) 1. Choosing to respond to divine leading; sincerely basing the human life on the highest consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness, and then co-ordinating these qualities of divinity through wisdom, worship, faith, and love.

110:3.8 (1206.6) 2. Loving God and desiring to be like him—genuine recognition of the divine fatherhood and loving worship of the heavenly Parent.

110:3.9 (1206.7) 3. Loving man and sincerely desiring to serve him—wholehearted recognition of the brotherhood of man coupled with an intelligent and wise affection for each of your fellow mortals.

110:3.10 (1206.8) 4. Joyful acceptance of cosmic citizenship—honest recognition of your progressive obligations to the Supreme Being, awareness of the interdependence of evolutionary man and evolving Deity. This is the birth of cosmic morality and the dawning realization of universal duty.


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Can we agree that the birth of a soul indicates a willingness to do the will of the Father?

(1218.8 ) 111:2.10 The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation — the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.

(381.5) 34:6.11 Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.


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the birth of the soul indicates an inherent universal urge of mind to do the will of god, but we aren't conscious of it at that stage.


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Makalu wrote:
the birth of the soul indicates an inherent universal urge of mind to do the will of god, but we aren't conscious of it at that stage.


Is it the mind that does the will of God, or is it the personality who does the will of God?


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