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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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kat asks: "What about the apostle Paul who described a morontial estate when he visited the third heaven? The apostle John also described the four directional control creatures of Salvington."

I am unsure of the purpose of this personal revelation and vision...but John's and other's visions hardly educated them as to these material realities and certainly their writing about them did not add to anyone's knowledge or understanding of heaven ...just the opposite. So the point was not materially educational, but probably had some spiritizing influence and purpose. Inspiration?

Seems like a rare event to argue the obvious work of the TA and purpose of personal revelation - the religious experience of transcendence from the material nature to the spirit nature for the purpose of soul growth, personal survival, and future fusion. Each form of revelation has its own function. That's the point I was making....you disagree?


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:54 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
But the TA I think becomes the coordinating and individualizing Spirit, the dominant and singular sorter and deliverer of ministry to soul and to mind.


I think the Spirit of Truth is the coordinator. Reference:

(1187.2) 108:2.3 Thus is the stage of the human mind set for the reception of Adjusters, but as a general rule they do not immediately appear to indwell such minds except on those worlds where the Spirit of Truth is functioning as a spiritual co-ordinator of these different spirit ministries. If this spirit of the bestowal Sons is present, the Adjusters unfailingly come the instant the seventh adjutant mind-spirit begins to function and signalizes to the Universe Mother Spirit that it has achieved in potential the co-ordination of the associated six adjutants of prior ministry to such a mortal intellect. Therefore have the divine Adjusters been universally bestowed upon all normal minds of moral status on Urantia ever since the day of Pentecost.

fanofVan wrote:
I've always believed the TA's delivered individuated and personal ministry to us as the each, where the Mother's and Son's Spirit delivered more universal ministry to the all....just an opinion.


I think the Spirit of Truth individualizes his ministry too. It is written that the Spirit of Truth is a personal teacher in the ministry of revelation, that he provides personal enlightenment in relation to all other persons and things, that he personalizes truth to the individual self (personhood), and that he alleviates loneliness and fellowships with each individual. References:

(1782.4) 160:5.13 True religion has reference to destiny and reality of attainment as well as to the reality and idealism of that which is wholeheartedly faith-accepted. And all of this must be made personal to us by the revelation of the Spirit of Truth.

(2060.6) 194:2.1 Jesus lived on earth and taught a gospel which redeemed man from the superstition that he was a child of the devil and elevated him to the dignity of a faith son of God. Jesus’ message, as he preached it and lived it in his day, was an effective solvent for man’s spiritual difficulties in that day of its statement. And now that he has personally left the world, he sends in his place his Spirit of Truth, who is designed to live in man and, for each new generation, to restate the Jesus message so that every new group of mortals to appear upon the face of the earth shall have a new and up-to-date version of the gospel, just such personal enlightenment and group guidance as will prove to be an effective solvent for man’s ever-new and varied spiritual difficulties

(2060.7) 194:2.2 The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty. Next, it is the purpose of this spirit to destroy the believer’s feeling of orphanhood. Jesus having been among men, all believers would experience a sense of loneliness had not the Spirit of Truth come to dwell in men’s hearts.

(2061.4) 194:2.6 Next, the Spirit of Truth came to help the believer to witness to the realities of Jesus' teachings and his life as he lived it in the flesh, and as he now again lives it anew and afresh in the individual believer of each passing generation of the spirit-filled sons of God.

(2061.2) 194:2.4 The proof, therefore, of your fellowship with the Spirit of Truth is not to be found in your consciousness of this spirit but rather in your experience of enhanced fellowship with Michael.

fanofVan wrote:
But check out: 5:2.4. Only the TA is an integral part of me.


Isn't 5:2.4 referencing spiritual influences that "surround and impinge upon you". Aren't the influences of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth also within you? Reference:

(17.2) 0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.


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fanofVan wrote:
Seems like a rare event to argue the obvious work of the TA and purpose of personal revelation - the religious experience of transcendence from the material nature to the spirit nature for the purpose of soul growth, personal survival, and future fusion. Each form of revelation has its own function. That's the point I was making....you disagree?


I agree that revelation and truth are the same thing. I agree that self-revelation and self-realization are the same thing. I agree that self-realization and psychic circle progress are the same thing.

I do not believe that the word "self" means ego in a negative way. It is written that selfhood is a whole made up of parts including all three levels of reality with the addition of personality which unites them. Selfhood, or personhood, has divinity potential for sonship when it houses a spirit nucleus, not just the Thought Adjuster, but also the Holy Spirit. References:

(1227.8 ) 112:1.18 In the human organism the summation of its parts constitutes selfhood - individuality - but such a process has nothing whatever to do with personality, which is the unifier of all these factors as related to cosmic realities.

(1003.4) 92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit--this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.


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Thank you for such generous sharing of your illuminating thinking and text quotes. Lots to consider and coordinate related to the marvelous ministries to mind and soul. Such clarification as you offer is quite welcome and appreciated!!

:wink: :biggrin:

The topic I had hoped to focus on, eventually, is the reality that these ministering Spirits effectively deliver a functional and fruitful personal religious experience to mortals....no matter how accurate or inaccurate our metaphysics and perspective and beliefs about reality may be....how truly irrelevant is fact and knowledge to soul building and survival. We are taught how vital knowledge and fact are to universe progress and experiential wisdom and the acquirement of the objective perspective and how the morontia mind is so superior to learning and understanding and the morontial spheres so superior in education that our current world and mortal epoch.

Apparently truth is more important than fact/knowledge during the earlier stages of our religious experience and spiritualization progress but fact/knowledge/objectivity becomes more important over time? We are taught that no matter how ignorant, or superstitious, or primitive, or immature, or young that we may have a religious experience sufficient for the birth of soul, the growth of soul, circle progress, soul survival, attachment of the branch to the vine, and the fruits of the Spirit. I find this fact and truth amazing....and contrary to the doctrines and beliefs of almost every evolutionary religion.

What do you think? 8)


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I agree that facts and knowledge are essentially irrelevant to survival but it is dangerous to stand still. Growth and progress are required in the Father's kingdom which makes facts and knowledge essential. Deficiencies of intellect are a handicap. Reference:

(1121.3) 102:3.1 Intellectual deficiency or educational poverty unavoidably handicaps higher religious attainment because such an impoverished environment of the spiritual nature robs religion of its chief channel of philosophic contact with the world of scientific knowledge.

fanofVan wrote:
Apparently truth is more important than fact/knowledge during the earlier stages of our religious experience and spiritualization progress but fact/knowledge/objectivity becomes more important over time?


I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean faith is more important? Isn't truth an objective reality? Reference:

(1141.7) 103:9.9 The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.


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I agree with you. But one may know truth without much in the way of facts of accurate knowledge of anything at all. Faith is truth even when many of the beliefs about God and reality are false. But faith may only take spiritualization and circle progress so far I think. Knowledge is required for progress too.

Religious experience is progressive. It begins with the Holy Spirit and the Adjutants and we are told that this influence and our response to this influence is the stage of evolutionary religious experience to which the personal response is faith and the spirit's reply is faith assurance. If we have a sufficient faith response and religious experience, then does the TA arrive and begin the next phase of personal religious experience based on personal revelation and truth discovery and truth assurance whereby the TA begins to wean the mortal mind away from the adjutant influence as morontia mind (soul) grows and progresses in truth in addition to faith.

Factual knowledge of cosmology or accurate beliefs about reality are not required for the religious experiences of faith and faith assurance or truth and truth assurance stages in the giving birth to soul or the progress of soul or the survival of soul....but eventually, factual knowledge becomes necessary for further progress. The universe is a university of endless education about the facts of reality. Universe education and epochal revelation deliver vital and essential knowledge of universe reality to bring facts and perspective to the religious experience to the tadpoles of time for their progressive adventure in reality. There is an important reason that the elimination of error and the reduction of confusion is important...even on the worlds of mortal origin.


If example and fact were not important to truth and the full fruition of faith, then there would be no Prince's corporeal staff and planetary HQ nor would there be a Garden, both home to schools of universe knowledge and reality education for the mortals of the world. Education is as important to a world as is the violet blood in delivering evolutionary growth through the Mortal Epochs of time. Paper 27 has a lot to say about the value and importance of knowledge in the universe. Knowledge is an inherent quest for mind and essential to progress and wisdom.

This is why there is speculation and theory and metaphysics...we have a driving hunger for knowledge, explanation, and understanding that must be satisfied. But God also knows that many of us mortals will live in times where there is no knowledge of and no source of knowledge of reality. And so we are created and wired for a religious experience and spiritual journey that does include the insatiable desire for knowledge but does not require the factual fulfillment of that hunger to give birth to soul and grow soul and have religious experience....true religious experience where truth is discovered and maturity and wisdom may grow.


This is the target still of this topic...the reality and depth and function and results of personal religious experience no matter how ignorant we may be and even how fictional and inaccurate our beliefs about universe realities may be!

50:5.7 (577.2) 4. The quest for knowledge and wisdom. Food, security, pleasure, and leisure provide the foundation for the development of culture and the spread of knowledge. The effort to execute knowledge results in wisdom, and when a culture has learned how to profit and improve by experience, civilization has really arrived. Food, security, and material comfort still dominate society, but many forward-looking individuals are hungering for knowledge and thirsting for wisdom. Every child is provided an opportunity to learn by doing; education is the watchword of these ages.

8)


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the first response we have to spiritual experience is to attempt to put it into words, to explain it, make sense of it and extract it's meanings and values and ultimately, when push comes to shove, we fail in that attempt because we don't have the words for the most vibrantly real experiences we can have and you can't force a gallon of milk into a cup container. but our attempt is true, notwithstanding that our explanation of the experience may change and grow over time and new meanings and values extracted from it, but that's the nature of truth and the Spirit of Truth. it adapts to present conditions and grows when and where possible.

now faith is merely the recognition in the validity of all the above, and it's assurance is built upon the fact of experience so it's not fair to say that facts exist independent of truth and faith. all facts exist relative to God and they're all good.


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fanofVan wrote:
Faith is truth even when many of the beliefs about God and reality are false.


I did not know that faith is the same thing as truth. I've always thought that faith is an attitude and truth is a reality.

fanofVan wrote:
If we have a sufficient faith response and religious experience, then does the TA arrive


I did not know that a religious experience is necessary for the arrival of a Thought Adjuster. I've always understood that Thought Adjusters arrive after the appearance of moral impulses which signal that the mind is capable of choosing between good and evil. Most people don't experience anything called "religious" when the Thought Adjuster arrives.

Makalu wrote:
all facts exist relative to God and they're all good


I agree. God is a person but he's also things. Mind marries the two, the person first, the things second, otherwise it's a doomed marriage.


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You don't think the choices which delivers the TA are a religious experience? Every choice which reflects the will of God is a religious experience we are told. I'm not sure that choice of will alignment is our first religious experience, in fact I am pretty sure it's not but giving birth to soul must certainly be a religious experience. See 102:8.4 and especially 103:2.8

I don't know what you consider a religious experience but I'm certain the co-creative act of giving birth to a soul in partnership with the God Fragment is one.

We are also told that "faith is wisdom" so yes faith is truth. Not all truth is faith. Same as God is love but love is not God. Faith is the "insight technique" of religion - see 103:6.7. Faith is a reality experience which is the embrace of truth and that embrace is truth itself.

Faith is "human religious insight" - see 103:7.1


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fanofVan wrote:
I don't know what you consider a religious experience


So you're saying that even though you're not conscious of it happening, it still qualifies as an experience, specifically a religious experience. Do I have that right?

fanofVan wrote:
We are also told that "faith is wisdom"


Doesn't wisdom admonish faith by introducing man to the world of truth? Science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the domain of wisdom and faith the domain of religion, the three separate, yet interdependent, levels of reality. References:

(1110.5) 101:5.2 Remember that science is the domain of knowledge, philosophy the realm of wisdom, and religion the sphere of the faith experience.

(1119.1) 102:1.2 The reason of science is based on the observable facts of time; the faith of religion argues from the spirit program of eternity. What knowledge and reason cannot do for us, true wisdom admonishes us to allow faith to accomplish through religious insight and spiritual transformation.

(1141:4) 103:9.6 Reason, wisdom, and faith are man's highest human attainments. Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

fanofVan wrote:
so yes faith is truth.


I can't agree that faith is truth. Faith is a method whereas truth is a reality. Faith is the method by which truth can be experienced, the open door to love that Jesus referred to. The open door is the believing attitude of a sincere mind. He also called a faith attitude one of a trusting child. References:

(1006.1) 101:2.2 Reason is the method of science; faith is the method of religion; logic is the attempted technique of philosophy. Revelation compensates for the absence of the morontia viewpoint by providing a technique for achieving unity in the comprehension of the reality and relationships of matter and spirit by the mediation of mind. And true revelation never renders science unnatural, religion unreasonable, or philosophy illogical.

(1545.9) 138:8.8 Jesus taught, "Faith is the open door for entering into the present, perfect, and eternal love of God."

(1861.9) 170:3.2 Though Jesus taught that faith, simple childlike belief, is the key to the door of the kingdom, he also taught that, having entered the door, there are the progressive steps of righteousness which every believing child must ascend in order to grow up to the full stature of the robust sons of God.

(1861.3) 170:2.21 1. Faith, sincerity. To come as a little child, to receive the bestowal of sonship as a gift; to submit to the doing of the Father’s will without questioning and in the full confidence and genuine trustfulness of the Father’s wisdom; to come into the kingdom free from prejudice and preconception; to be open-minded and teachable like an unspoiled child.

fanofVan wrote:
Faith is "human religious insight" - see 103:7.1


I think faith is the attitude of the mind which leads to religious insight, or spiritual insight, both of which are gifts from the Father. Didn't Jesus teach four faith attitudes? I also can't agree that human religious insight is faith. Faith is the doorway to insight, the method. Religious or spiritual insight is the capacity to experience God-consciousness, the ability to "see God," and we see him by faith, not as faith. References:

(1001.3) 91:7.12 7. To increase his spiritual insight — God-consciousness.

(1574.6) 140:5.13 To see God — by faith — means to acquire true spiritual insight.


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Certainly we can have religious experience without consciousness or understanding of the experience. That's the very point and purpose of this entire topic and discussion - the functional reality of religious experience despite lack of belief or the inaccuracies of belief or even our awareness of the fact of our own religious experience and those of all others!!!

Andon and Fonta and our primitive ancestors have no concept or context for such awareness. Why would the awareness of the experience be required? I think most of us have very preconceived beliefs as to what faith and belief and religious experiences are or are supposed to be.

And those preconceptions are very wrong and limiting and mere perpetuations of tradition and theologies of evolutionary religions. Every expression of self forgetting love and selfless service and truth, beauty, and goodness are religious experiences. But not only our expressions are such - when we feel the Spirit within and respond to that with belief or faith or our own sense of assurance and confirmation, we are having a religious experience.

We are admonished not to judge primitive religious experience or the primitive who experiences personal religion by our own knowledge, beliefs, or experiences....and yet we do so all the time.

102:6.1 (1124.3) The philosophic elimination of religious fear and the steady progress of science add greatly to the mortality of false gods; and even though these casualties of man-made deities may momentarily befog the spiritual vision, they eventually destroy that ignorance and superstition which so long obscured the living God of eternal love. The relation between the creature and the Creator is a living experience, a dynamic religious faith, which is not subject to precise definition. To isolate part of life and call it religion is to disintegrate life and to distort religion. And this is just why the God of worship claims all allegiance or none.

Religious experience may be profound and dramatic or it may be incremental and ordinary every day spiritual growth which we are told is always unconscious!!

103:1.5 (1130.4) That religionists have believed so much that was false does not invalidate religion because religion is founded on the recognition of values and is validated by the faith of personal religious experience. Religion, then, is based on experience and religious thought; theology, the philosophy of religion, is an honest attempt to interpret that experience. Such interpretative beliefs may be right or wrong, or a mixture of truth and error.

103:1.6 (1130.5) The realization of the recognition of spiritual values is an experience which is superideational. There is no word in any human language which can be employed to designate this “sense,” “feeling,” “intuition,” or “experience” which we have elected to call God-consciousness....

103:2.1 (1130.6) Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again”—born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.

103:2.6 (1131.5) In the absence of wrong teaching, the mind of the normal child moves positively, in the emergence of religious consciousness, toward moral righteousness and social ministry, rather than negatively, away from sin and guilt. There may or may not be conflict in the development of religious experience, but there are always present the inevitable decisions, effort, and function of the human will.

103:2.7 (1131.6) Moral choosing is usually accompanied by more or less moral conflict. And this very first conflict in the child mind is between the urges of egoism and the impulses of altruism. The Thought Adjuster does not disregard the personality values of the egoistic motive but does operate to place a slight preference upon the altruistic impulse as leading to the goal of human happiness and to the joys of the kingdom of heaven.

103:2.8 (1131.7) When a moral being chooses to be unselfish when confronted by the urge to be selfish, that is primitive religious experience. No animal can make such a choice; such a decision is both human and religious. It embraces the fact of God-consciousness and exhibits the impulse of social service, the basis of the brotherhood of man. When mind chooses a right moral judgment by an act of the free will, such a decision constitutes a religious experience.

103:3.4 (1132.4) Remember that in the religion of all ages the experience which is paramount is the feeling regarding moral values and social meanings, not the thinking regarding theologic dogmas or philosophic theories. Religion evolves favorably as the element of magic is replaced by the concept of morals.

103:3.5 (1132.5) Man evolved through the superstitions of mana, magic, nature worship, spirit fear, and animal worship to the various ceremonials whereby the religious attitude of the individual became the group reactions of the clan. And then these ceremonies became focalized and crystallized into tribal beliefs, and eventually these fears and faiths became personalized into gods. But in all of this religious evolution the moral element was never wholly absent. The impulse of the God within man was always potent. And these powerful influences—one human and the other divine—insured the survival of religion throughout the vicissitudes of the ages and that notwithstanding it was so often threatened with extinction by a thousand subversive tendencies and hostile antagonisms.


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This is a copied post from the topic: "What is Assurance?" due to its supporting quotes about the functional reality of religious experience even when we hold inaccurate, even false beliefs or without reality awareness and/or knowledge and context of who's who or what's what related to that experience. God is assertive and creates an experience in our minds, no matter how childish or immature or inexperienced or primitive or ignorant or how inaccurate may be our perspectives, philosophies, metaphysics, beliefs, or facts. Still may we and do we have religious experience. It is based on faith and truth which are both, oddly enough, distinct from and not dependent upon knowledge and facts or the accuracy of either.

Reposted:

We are told that the TA creates the yearn within, the hunger and the thirst. These are real yearnings which affect mind. Then the TA and Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Truth of the Creator Son (Jesus) feed this hunger and quench this thirst. This need and fulfillment cycle is very real. It is a direct cause and effect activated within the spirit nature of our normal dual nature - the material and the spirit natures. This hunger and thirst is no less active, effective, and real than is the physical/material body's hunger and thirst!!

Faith and faith assurance is the work of the Holy Spirit (Mother's Spirit). Revelatory truth and truth assurance comes from both the God Fragment (TA) and the Son's Spirit (Spirit of Truth. All 3 of these sources of food for the soul and the quenching of the thirst for righteousness also provide a gravity circuit with a very real grip upon Morontia Mind (soul), Personality, and Spirit. As we grow in the Circles of Progress and Spiritization, the mass of soul grows and the gravity grip and effect (the pull of the force of gravity upon the mass of soul and spirit and personality) also grows.


All of this happens without any need for "intellectual understanding"....I agree!! For me, understanding the sources, mechanisms, certainties, forces, sources, causes, and effects of faith increases and enhances that "experiential certainty" pethuel describes. There is a very real conspiracy at work within us. It is not one which diminishes or overrides free will by trickery or coercion or brutality...but it is very real and powerful. We are engineered by the Life Carriers and Adjutants and wired by Deity to respond to this grand conspiracy of Deity and the universe of universes by plan, design, purpose, origin, and destiny to grow from tadpoles to pure spirits. What we discuss here is that interface between the animal/material being and the spirit nature we are endowed with.

0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience—God-consciousness.

34:6.9 In every mortal there exists a dual nature: the inheritance of animal tendencies and the high urge of spirit endowment. During the short life you live on Urantia, these two diverse and opposing urges can seldom be fully reconciled; they can hardly be harmonized and unified; but throughout your lifetime the combined Spirit ever ministers to assist you in subjecting the flesh more and more to the leading of the Spirit. Even though you must live your material life through, even though you cannot escape the body and its necessities, nonetheless, in purpose and ideals you are empowered increasingly to subject the animal nature to the mastery of the Spirit. There truly exists within you a conspiracy of spiritual forces, a confederation of divine powers, whose exclusive purpose is to effect your final deliverance from material bondage and finite handicaps.

Me here: We are taught that faith is a result of our discernment of the evolutionary urges of the Adjutants and the yearn provided by the TA and our response to that "ear" which hears and that mind and soul which responds. This becomes a feedback loop of confirmations and assurances as the hunger is felt and fed and the thirst is quenched....over and over and over again. This "experience" of the inner life grows our faith and feeds our soul which is then gripped by gravitational forces which grow in strength and force drawing us toward our very source in Paradise! Jesus said every choice moves us closer to God or further away...so faith is not something found and fully engaged. As soul grows experientially, so does faith grow, and so does the fruits of the Spirit grow, and so does the grip of the gravity circuits...all of which combine to bring absolute faith and confidence no matter the uncertainties faced in the adventures of living!!

103:0.1 (1129.1) ALL of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

103:0.2 (1129.2) The religious tendencies of the human races are innate; they are universally manifested and have an apparently natural origin; primitive religions are always evolutionary in their genesis. As natural religious experience continues to progress, periodic revelations of truth punctuate the otherwise slow-moving course of planetary evolution.

103:9.11 (1142.2) Faith leads to knowing God, not merely to a mystical feeling of the divine presence. Faith must not be overmuch influenced by its emotional consequences. True religion is an experience of believing and knowing as well as a satisfaction of feeling.

Link to the topic - "What is Assurance?" viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5434

Me here and now: The reality of our spiritual natures and our religious experience and our faith and faith assurance and the fact of personal revelation and truth assurance are completely independent of our ability to understand or explain the forces which conspire to create those experiences and deliver those truths. The experience is the same for those of high intelligence and great knowledge and those with neither and those in between. We may gain a certain knowledge of God and have a definitive relationship with Divinity within that delivers the fruits of the Spirit no matter how ignorant and no matter how inaccurate are our beliefs and understanding of universe realities otherwise.

To me this is the greatest of all good news!! We may forsake our heritage and we may abandon the innate and natural path of religious experience by our own will and we may embrace sin. But it is my opinion that far fewer do so abandon such religious experience than the uppity and self righteous and judgmental and sanctimonious ones among us think! Jesus taught most people are simply confused and ignorant and misguided or misdirected and distracted by material demands and sufferings. Jesus found the light of the Spirit within folks wherever he went and found it easy to fan that flame into a brighter light of the better nature within us each and all!! And this is because we are designed and built for the inner life and religious experience - it is innate and natural - and because the Spirits of Father, Mother, and Son all exist within and all around us acting in conspiracy to lead and direct us into a religious experience.

Humanity's and theology's definitions and expectations of religious experience are all wrong and far too limiting and confining and restrictive and restraining and specific when, in fact, religious experience is so natural and so inherent and so systemic that the only evidence of those is the love of others, the expressions of truth, beauty, and goodness, selfless sacrifice and service, the fruits of the spirit, and the inner assurance of survival and not being alone, and the conviction of this truth that cannot be articulated or proven to any other. It's not what we believe or say or do to comply with creeds and doctrines and the demands of evolutionary churches and theologies that demonstrates our public conformity to the demands of others that proves our faith and religious experience.

I believe that personal religious experience and faith are far more universal than is often thought to be the case and that no evolutionary religion has a corner on the definition of or the experience of truth and faith.

Metaphysics, like religious experience, is an innate hunger and thirst of the mind to know and understand delivered by Spirit as well. This hunger for knowledge stays with us forever as far as I can tell and is inherent in the very nature of all mind, not just material or mortal mind. The explanations for our experience and the realities observed and imagined in the cosmology of cause and effect are so often so inaccurate no matter our love for those beliefs and our stubborn loyalty to them (prejudice as defined in the UB). And yet such ignorance and misinformation about reality may still satisfy our need to know and does not interfere with our faith or religious experience. Truly amazing.

Bradly 8)

102:1.2 (1119.1) The reason of science is based on the observable facts of time; the faith of religion argues from the spirit program of eternity. What knowledge and reason cannot do for us, true wisdom admonishes us to allow faith to accomplish through religious insight and spiritual transformation.

102:1.3 (1119.2) Owing to the isolation of rebellion, the revelation of truth on Urantia has all too often been mixed up with the statements of partial and transient cosmologies. Truth remains unchanged from generation to generation, but the associated teachings about the physical world vary from day to day and from year to year. Eternal truth should not be slighted because it chances to be found in company with obsolete ideas regarding the material world. The more of science you know, the less sure you can be; the more of religion you have, the more certain you are.

102:1.4 (1119.3) The certainties of science proceed entirely from the intellect; the certitudes of religion spring from the very foundations of the entire personality. Science appeals to the understanding of the mind; religion appeals to the loyalty and devotion of the body, mind, and spirit, even to the whole personality.

102:1.5 (1119.4) God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.

102:1.6 (1119.5) The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man’s soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less.


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What do you think of this definition of religious experience:

(1121:6) 102:3.4 Religious experience is the realization of the consciousness of having found God.


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Well....there is soul consciousness, and subconciousness, and super consciousness, and unconsciousness. We are told we are often unaware of soul.

See 100:1.9 and 110:4.2 related to your question.

What does God conscious mean? Does it mean a precise and accurate definition that all others or some others or any others share? I don't think so, no. Remember that soul has/is mind too and has volition and grows, often without the awareness of material mind. What's the difference between consciousness and awareness I wonder?

And can one have faith without the awareness of or consciousness of faith? I think so.

Good questions.


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:19 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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What do you think about the use of the word "realization" in this reference:

(1121:6) 102:3.4 Religious experience is the realization of the consciousness of having found God.

fanofVan wrote:
See 100:1.9 and 110:4.2 related to your question.


Thank you for the references. This is how I interpret them:

100:1.9 is referring to religious growth, not religious experience. Growth is unconscious, but the proof of growth is a conscious realization of the reality of it having happened.

110:4.2 is referring to the problem of deciphering the actual origin or cause of religious experience once it has come into consciousness, which is why I think a faithful attitude is so crucial.


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