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Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make. Since awareness of the transcendent by human beings occurred when the spirit of worship made first contact, then abstract ideas concerning it have also been around since then.

Getting back to my previous question concerning your statement that "God knows everything about everyone and everything and all things is something called 'reflectivity'". I am still interested in knowing why God created two mechanisms by which he can know everyone and everything. What information does he get about me from the reflectivity service and how does that differ from the information he gets about me from his personality circuit? I realize that my question may be unrelated to metaphysics, so I understand if you would prefer to answer it elsewhere, or not at all. No pressure, it's just a curiosity of mine.


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<sigh> repeat for those with an ear to hear: the primitive mind makes no distinction between the worlds of energy and spirit. where there's been no separation there's nothing to attempt to unite.

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But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having some method of reconciling the interplay between the widely separated domains of science and religion; and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well recognized chasm.


or its:

Quote:
But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having a reasoned and invented explanation for perceived or imagined reality which acts as a substitute for factual knowledge and empirical evidence of that reality perceived or imagined, and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well recognized chasm.


which makes no sense


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We are told that both science and religion begin with assumptions....and that the Hindus created a religion of metaphysics (so much for being "new" <sigh yourself>).

Your love of your opinion is quite obvious makalu.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Yes, that was the point I was hoping to make. Since awareness of the transcendent by human beings occurred when the spirit of worship made first contact, then abstract ideas concerning it have also been around since then.

Getting back to my previous question concerning your statement that "God knows everything about everyone and everything and all things is something called 'reflectivity'". I am still interested in knowing why God created two mechanisms by which he can know everyone and everything. What information does he get about me from the reflectivity service and how does that differ from the information he gets about me from his personality circuit? I realize that my question may be unrelated to metaphysics, so I understand if you would prefer to answer it elsewhere, or not at all. No pressure, it's just a curiosity of mine.


Actually its at least 3 circuits- personality, mind, and spirit. Plus there are the Adjusters and the Supreme. My opinion is that each delivers a qualitative distinction and complimentary essence to knowledge and understanding. The Son's spirit circuit measures loyalty in all beings while the TA's measure Circle Progress and spiritization. There are differential elements by each source which delivers a more accurate and comprehensive data set and perspective. Or so I understand.

One of our purposes here is to replace and correct our own metaphysical errors and inventions with factual knowledge of reality. I find your questions both interesting and topical.


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fanofVan wrote:
Plus there are the Adjusters and the Supreme


The Adjusters use the personality circuit and the Supreme uses the reflectivity service, right? Perhaps one is specifically for the personality and the other is for the time-space experiences of the personality in its relation to personalities other than the Father?

Makalu wrote:
the primitive mind makes no distinction between the worlds of energy and spirit.


How is "primitive mind" defined? Is a primitive mind pre-human or human, or is it just childlike in its innocence? A primitive mind, even without enough ideas or facts for intelligent association, is still a logical mind, is it not? If an immature mind believes a moving stream is alive because of an indwelling spirit, then that mind has already logically distinguished the difference between physical water and the spirit of life, but unfortunately arrived at an incorrect conclusion regarding the nature of each.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Plus there are the Adjusters and the Supreme


The Adjusters use the personality circuit and the Supreme uses the reflectivity service, right? Perhaps one is specifically for the personality and the other is for the time-space experiences of the personality in its relation to personalities other than the Father?

Makalu wrote:
the primitive mind makes no distinction between the worlds of energy and spirit.


How is "primitive mind" defined? Is a primitive mind pre-human or human, or is it just childlike in its innocence? A primitive mind, even without enough ideas or facts for intelligent association, is still a logical mind, is it not? If an immature mind believes a moving stream is alive because of an indwelling spirit, then that mind has already logically distinguished the difference between physical water and the spirit of life, but unfortunately arrived at an incorrect conclusion regarding the nature of each.


The Adjusters are prepersonal so no, I don't think they use the personality circuit. I think they connect to the personality circuit by fusion? They may access the mind circuit of reflectivity but the circuit of reflectivity does not "receive" TA mind. The Supreme is connected to all circuits I think but I think some of it is by download rather than upload by connection to the Paradise Trinity and Master Spirits. Great questions requiring additional research!

Like your response to Makalu....all mind is reasoning, human mind and higher also collates and integrates and formulates with wisdom....even primitive mind....and the mortals of Urantia are still primitive minded by definition I think. Good analogy.

Back with some quotes later! :idea: :?: 8)

107:1.2 (1177.3) Though there are diverse opinions regarding the mode of the bestowal of Thought Adjusters, there exist no such differences concerning their origin; all are agreed that they proceed direct from the Universal Father, the First Source and Center. They are not created beings; they are fragmentized entities constituting the factual presence of the infinite God. Together with their many unrevealed associates, the Adjusters are undiluted and unmixed divinity, unqualified and unattenuated parts of Deity; they are of God, and as far as we are able to discern, they are God.

107:5.1 (1181.4) Evolutionary mortals are prone to look upon mind as a cosmic mediation between spirit and matter, for that is indeed the principal ministry of mind as discernible by you. Hence it is quite difficult for humans to perceive that Thought Adjusters have minds, for Adjusters are fragmentations of God on an absolute level of reality which is not only prepersonal but also prior to all energy and spirit divergence. On a monistic level antecedent to energy and spirit differentiation there could be no mediating function of mind, for there are no divergencies to be mediated.

107:5.2 (1181.5) Since Adjusters can plan, work, and love, they must have powers of selfhood which are commensurate with mind. They are possessed of unlimited ability to communicate with each other, that is, all forms of Monitors above the first or virgin groups. As to the nature and purport of their intercommunications, we can reveal very little, for we do not know. And we further know that they must be minded in some manner else they could never be personalized.

107:5.3 (1181.6) The mindedness of the Thought Adjuster is like the mindedness of the Universal Father and the Eternal Son—that which is ancestral to the minds of the Conjoint Actor.

107:7.1 (1183.3) Thought Adjusters are not personalities, but they are real entities; they are truly and perfectly individualized, although they are never, while indwelling mortals, actually personalized. Thought Adjusters are not true personalities; they are true realities, realities of the purest order known in the universe of universes—they are the divine presence. Though not personal, these marvelous fragments of the Father are commonly referred to as beings and sometimes, in view of the spiritual phases of their present ministry to mortals, as spirit entities.

107:7.2 (1183.4) If Thought Adjusters are not personalities having prerogatives of will and powers of choice, how then can they select mortal subjects and volunteer to indwell these creatures of the evolutionary worlds? This is a question easy to ask, but probably no being in the universe of universes has ever found the exact answer. Even my order of personality, the Solitary Messengers, does not fully understand the endowment of will, choice, and love in entities that are not personal.

107:7.3 (1183.5) We have often speculated that Thought Adjusters must have volition on all prepersonal levels of choice. They volunteer to indwell human beings, they lay plans for man’s eternal career, they adapt, modify, and substitute in accordance with circumstances, and these activities connote genuine volition. They have affection for mortals, they function in universe crises, they are always waiting to act decisively in accordance with human choice, and all these are highly volitional reactions. In all situations not concerned with the domain of the human will, they unquestionably exhibit conduct which betokens the exercise of powers in every sense the equivalent of will, maximated decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
<sigh> repeat for those with an ear to hear: the primitive mind makes no distinction between the worlds of energy and spirit. where there's been no separation there's nothing to attempt to unite.

Quote:
But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having some method of reconciling the interplay between the widely separated domains of science and religion; and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well recognized chasm.


or its:

Quote:
But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having a reasoned and invented explanation for perceived or imagined reality which acts as a substitute for factual knowledge and empirical evidence of that reality perceived or imagined, and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well recognized chasm.


which makes no sense


Makes perfect sense! You're getting rather tiresome Makalu. You have claimed that metaphysics equals revelation (which kind?) and that metaphysics equals philosophy - both contradictions to the UB. By reason if a=b and a=c then b=c so you are also claiming that philosophy equals revelation. False. You have also claimed the authors of the UB impose their own unique definition on the word metaphysics which is different than the dictionary/accepted definition. Another falsehood. The authors utilize the standardized definitions of words used OR they invent new words for new meanings OR they spend considerable time in clarifying and specifying those terms which they do not replace.

In the latter case I am reminded of "evil" whose standard synonyms accurately portray the term anyway. In the former case they use the new word spiritize rather spiritualize to specify differentiation in meaning.

Metaphysics is not a new word and is certainly not new to humanity no matter its definition and was given no new definition in the UB - only clarification and context...it is "beyond physics", theoretical substitution for factual knowledge which is used to explain reality that is otherwise unexplained. The mind automatically functions thusly...all mind does so. Only you and Steven appear confused on the issue here...and you two do not agree.

Now you are merely being disruptive...…<sigh> :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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If the Thought Adjusters do not utilize the Father's personality circuit, how do they register a personality's true worship with him?
Don't the Adjusters have access to both the prepersonality circuit and the personality circuit? I thought they did.


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As to the Supreme:

6:4.8 (77.1) The Father and the Son really know the number and whereabouts of all the spirits and spiritualized beings in the universe of universes. Not only does the Son know all things by virtue of his own omnipresent spirit, but the Son, equally with the Father and the Conjoint Actor, is fully cognizant of the vast reflectivity intelligence of the Supreme Being, which intelligence is at all times aware of all things that transpire on all the worlds of the seven superuniverses. And there are other ways in which the Paradise Son is omniscient.

115:5.1 (1264.7) The Supreme Being is absolutely dependent on the existence and action of the Paradise Trinity for the reality of his personal and spirit nature. While the growth of the Supreme is a matter of triodity relationship, the spirit personality of God the Supreme is dependent upon, and is derived from, the Paradise Trinity, which ever remains as the absolute center-source of perfect and infinite stability around which the evolutionary growth of the Supreme progressively unfolds.

116:1.1 (1268.6) The experience of every evolving creature personality is a phase of the experience of the Almighty Supreme. The intelligent subjugation of every physical segment of the superuniverses is a part of the growing control of the Almighty Supreme. The creative synthesis of power and personality is a part of the creative urge of the Supreme Mind and is the very essence of the evolutionary growth of unity in the Supreme Being.

116:1.4 (1269.3) The time-space mind, the cosmic mind, is differently functioning in the seven superuniverses, but it is co-ordinated by some unknown associative technique in the Supreme Being. The Almighty overcontrol of the grand universe is not exclusively physical and spiritual. In the seven superuniverses it is primarily material and spiritual, but there are also present phenomena of the Supreme which are both intellectual and spiritual.

116:3.1 (1270.12) The Paradise Deities not only act directly in their gravity circuits throughout the grand universe, but they also function through their various agencies and other manifestations, such as:
116:3.2 (1270.13) 1. The mind focalizations of the Third Source and Center. The finite domains of energy and spirit are literally held together by the mind presences of the Conjoint Actor. This is true from the Creative Spirit in a local universe through the Reflective Spirits of a superuniverse to the Master Spirits in the grand universe. The mind circuits emanating from these varied intelligence focuses represent the cosmic arena of creature choice. Mind is the flexible reality which creatures and Creators can so readily manipulate; it is the vital link connecting matter and spirit. The mind bestowal of the Third Source and Center unifies the spirit person of God the Supreme with the experiential power of the evolutionary Almighty.

116:3.3 (1271.1) 2. The personality revelations of the Second Source and Center. The mind presences of the Conjoint Actor unify the spirit of divinity with the pattern of energy. The bestowal incarnations of the Eternal Son and his Paradise Sons unify, actually fuse, the divine nature of a Creator with the evolving nature of a creature. The Supreme is both creature and creator; the possibility of his being such is revealed in the bestowal actions of the Eternal Son and his co-ordinate and subordinate Sons. The bestowal orders of sonship, the Michaels and the Avonals, actually augment their divine natures with bona fide creature natures which have become theirs by the living of the actual creature life on the evolutionary worlds. When divinity becomes like humanity, inherent in this relationship is the possibility that humanity can become divine.

116:3.4 (1271.2) 3. The indwelling presences of the First Source and Center. Mind unifies spirit causations with energy reactions; bestowal ministry unifies divinity descensions with creature ascensions; and the indwelling fragments of the Universal Father actually unify the evolving creatures with God on Paradise. There are many such presences of the Father which indwell numerous orders of personalities, and in mortal man these divine fragments of God are the Thought Adjusters. The Mystery Monitors are to human beings what the Paradise Trinity is to the Supreme Being. The Adjusters are absolute foundations, and upon absolute foundations freewill choice can cause to be evolved the divine reality of an eternaliter nature, finaliter nature in the case of man, Deity nature in God the Supreme.


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:18 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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katroofjebus wrote:
If the Thought Adjusters do not utilize the Father's personality circuit, how do they register a personality's true worship with him?
Don't the Adjusters have access to both the prepersonality circuit and the personality circuit? I thought they did.


I look forward to some of your research and posted text in support of that. I do not say you are wrong but I'm not, so far, finding any corroboration. We'll keep looking though, eh?

:wink:

16:8.3 (194.3) Personality is a unique endowment of original nature whose existence is independent of, and antecedent to, the bestowal of the Thought Adjuster. Nevertheless, the presence of the Adjuster does augment the qualitative manifestation of personality. Thought Adjusters, when they come forth from the Father, are identical in nature, but personality is diverse, original, and exclusive; and the manifestation of personality is further conditioned and qualified by the nature and qualities of the associated energies of a material, mindal, and spiritual nature which constitute the organismal vehicle for personality manifestation.

One problem with Adjusters having personality is fusion...who is who then? Whose personality prevails or survives? I'm pretty sure it is the mortal's personality that personalizes the fused being which unites the prepersonal God fragment with the person and personality of the mortal.

What do you know about "humanization"? The Material Sons and Daughters (Adams and Eves) and their immediate progeny, the midwayers, and the Guardian Angels must be humanized by receiving Thought Adjusters to complete their own destinies of ascension and to be mustered into the Corps of Finality. They too, I think, would then be the source of the personality in the fused being to come.

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1


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fanofVan wrote:
I look forward to some of your research and posted text in support of that. I do not say you are wrong but I'm not, so far, finding any corroboration.


The reference I had in mind has to do with the distinction between supplications and worship. In regards to prepersonality circuit I should have better phrased it as prepersonal channels. Take note of the last sentence. There appears to be both personal and prepersonal mechanisms for the Adjuster to communicate directly with the Father.

p65:4 5:3.2 Supplications of all kinds belong to the realm of the Eternal Son and the Son's spiritual organization. Prayers, all formal communications, everything except adoration and worship of the Universal Father, are matters that concern a local universe; they do not ordinarily proceed out of the realm of the jurisdiction of a Creator Son. But worship is undoubtedly encircuited and dispatched to the person of the Creator by the function of the Father's personality circuit. We further believe that such registry of the homage of an Adjuster-indwelt creature is facilitated by the Father's spirit presence. There exists a tremendous amount of evidence to substantiate such a belief, and I know that all orders of Father fragments are empowered to register the bona fide adoration of their subjects acceptably in the presence of the Universal Father. The Adjusters undoubtedly also utilize direct prepersonal channels of communication with God, and they are likewise able to utilize the spirit-gravity circuits of the Eternal Son.

There is also this reference to the way the Father utilizes his personality circuit to make direct contact through the agency of the Adjuster.

p62:2 5:0.2 God has distributed the infinity of his eternal nature throughout the existential realities of his six absolute co-ordinates, but he may, at any time, make direct personal contact with any part or phase or kind of creation through the agency of his prepersonal fragments. And the eternal God has also reserved to himself the prerogative of bestowing personality upon the divine Creators and the living creatures of the universe of universes, while he has further reserved the prerogative of maintaining direct and parental contact with all these personal beings through the personality circuit.

Considering both references, it seems to me that the Adjusters are the agents of incoming love from the Father to the personality and outgoing love from the personality to the Father. How do you interpret it?


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Very interesting....notice in the first quote "Adjuster indwelt creature"...what then would be the "agents" of Father's love circuit for all other creatures I wonder? And do you think the love circuit is also the means of worship and communion? We know that love is a great circuit...it cannot be truly received without its giving and by its giving is it received and all love originates with, by, and from God.

Or is mind the circuit of love and worship? All creatures worship. So the TA is not the sole means of access or transmission to be sure. Very interesting angle of study and consideration. Thank you.

:idea:

0:5.1 Personality is a level of deified reality and ranges from the mortal and midwayer level of the higher mind activation of worship and wisdom up through the morontial and spiritual to the attainment of finality of personality status. That is the evolutionary ascent of mortal- and kindred- creature personality, but there are numerous other orders of universe personalities.

0:5.6 2. Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.

5:3.8 The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul —the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind's assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal—the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality.


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fanofVan wrote:

Makes perfect sense! You're getting rather tiresome Makalu. You have claimed that metaphysics equals revelation (which kind?) and that metaphysics equals philosophy - both contradictions to the UB. By reason if a=b and a=c then b=c so you are also claiming that philosophy equals revelation. False. You have also claimed the authors of the UB impose their own unique definition on the word metaphysics which is different than the dictionary/accepted definition. Another falsehood. The authors utilize the standardized definitions of words used OR they invent new words for new meanings OR they spend considerable time in clarifying and specifying those terms which they do not replace.

In the latter case I am reminded of "evil" whose standard synonyms accurately portray the term anyway. In the former case they use the new word spiritize rather spiritualize to specify differentiation in meaning.

Metaphysics is not a new word and is certainly not new to humanity no matter its definition and was given no new definition in the UB - only clarification and context...it is "beyond physics", theoretical substitution for factual knowledge which is used to explain reality that is otherwise unexplained. The mind automatically functions thusly...all mind does so. Only you and Steven appear confused on the issue here...and you two do not agree.

Now you are merely being disruptive...…<sigh> :roll:


metaphysics in the dictionary is the attempt to unite matter and mind, in the papers it's the attempt to unite matter and spirit which are pretty close to each other but neither is close at all to your new personal confused definition which has changed a number of times since you started this thread

the apriori assumptions of science, religion and philosophy don't mean that every thought in those field are just speculative assumptions...far from it.


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fanofVan wrote:
What do you know about "humanization"?


Not much really. Logically it probably means to endow with human characteristics, specifically the characteristic human path of experience leading to unending progressive growth.

fanofVan wrote:
what then would be the "agents" of Father's love circuit for all other creatures I wonder?


Wouldn't it still be the personality circuit? I don't think an Adjuster is necessary for the personality circuit to function, just two personalities. Here's your reference.

p71:7 5:6.12 Concerning those personalities who are not Adjuster indwelt: The attribute of choice-liberty is also bestowed by the Universal Father, and such persons are likewise embraced in the great circuit of divine love, the personality circuit of the Universal Father. God provides for the sovereign choice of all true personalities. No personal creature can be coerced into the eternal adventure; the portal of eternity opens only in response to the freewill choice of the freewill sons of the God of free will.

fanofVan wrote:
Or is mind the circuit of love and worship?


I think mind is the arena where it is experienced.


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Makalu wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

Makes perfect sense! You're getting rather tiresome Makalu. You have claimed that metaphysics equals revelation (which kind?) and that metaphysics equals philosophy - both contradictions to the UB. By reason if a=b and a=c then b=c so you are also claiming that philosophy equals revelation. False. You have also claimed the authors of the UB impose their own unique definition on the word metaphysics which is different than the dictionary/accepted definition. Another falsehood. The authors utilize the standardized definitions of words used OR they invent new words for new meanings OR they spend considerable time in clarifying and specifying those terms which they do not replace.

In the latter case I am reminded of "evil" whose standard synonyms accurately portray the term anyway. In the former case they use the new word spiritize rather spiritualize to specify differentiation in meaning.

Metaphysics is not a new word and is certainly not new to humanity no matter its definition and was given no new definition in the UB - only clarification and context...it is "beyond physics", theoretical substitution for factual knowledge which is used to explain reality that is otherwise unexplained. The mind automatically functions thusly...all mind does so. Only you and Steven appear confused on the issue here...and you two do not agree.

Now you are merely being disruptive...…<sigh> :roll:


metaphysics in the dictionary is the attempt to unite matter and mind, in the papers it's the attempt to unite matter and spirit which are pretty close to each other but neither is close at all to your new personal confused definition which has changed a number of times since you started this thread

the apriori assumptions of science, religion and philosophy don't mean that every thought in those field are just speculative assumptions...far from it.


Here’s a thought: all this about the personality circuit is what’s involved with finding God the father? It’s relative easy and a child can do it - as Jesus stated - you enter the kingdom as a child, we are children of God when we believe and trust and love and worship him.
All this metaphysics and philosophy, isn’t it more about finding God the mother? Not quite so easy it seems?? More adult sort of efforts??


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