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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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yes i should have reiterated mind invents fables and myths when it can't grasp something which is what you said...my mistake or yours? the relevant text is clear.

metaphysics and revelation are essentially the same in the papers:
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1 Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, metaphysics (revelation) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion.


your concept of metaphysics would preclude that there is even such a thing as true metaphysics which the papers are also clear about.

think ya need a refresher on the nature of truth and fact


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Please enlighten me. I agree...the distinctions between truth and fact are very interesting...and can be confusing.

And thanks for the discussion.

8)


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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2:7.1 (42.2) All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.

2:7.2 (42.3) Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

2:7.3 (42.4) Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Dear Bradley:

You are quibbling too much if you need me to define "Supersensible".

I mean, again you say that metaphysics is not a science, well I say "it is a science that as yet exists without real verity, any factual currency." But actually it is a science. Metaphysics not theoretical abstraction or philosophy.

What do I mean cascade that the energy pours out of Paradise and through the Power Directors, where the energy becomes "rarified" or "attenuated" as it is made compatible with the self-maintenance systems of created worlds. The Paradise-Current "falls from a higher source, and then flattens out, when distributed through the Minor Sectors, Local Universes, et cetera.

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I think the authors of this wonderful revelation completely understand our ability and limitations involving metaphysics and they use this knowledge to stimulate our minds in order to get meaningful metaphysics going in the direction of uncovering so many layers of meaning and value within the text as well as stimulating these same urges to understand what may lay beyond the mandate limits imposed on the authors that they tease our minds with. Think about how many times “unrevealed” is used with hints that come up in various parts of the text that trigger our metaphysical speculations in regard to what it is that is unrevealed. The authors must have fun knowing they are gaming our minds in a learning direction while at the same time staying within their mandate limits.
The authors are very much aware of what they are doing to our minds in regard to metaphysics and our lack of mota.


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I think Makalu might be correct for "personality" as the basis for actual metaphysics. This makes sense because something known or eventuated in the individual personality, is not necessarily known on spiritual and intellectual levels. What is gained by the personality may be applied through intellectual, physical means, or there are deeper potentials to be effectuated, through personality in the omniscience of God. Reason why such purely theoretical ideas constitute metaphysics because things like "prayer", and "the convocation of the mind", within personality, are very clumisly stated even in proper syntax and dynamic-of-the-will. But if you could hold that the human personality is experiencially developed, you could learn metaphysics, as a skill, even though language yet and perchance cannot express the actuality of such manifold potential. As with "let not the left hand know what the right hand does," we are dealing with transcendenal level of reality, shrowded from the conscious intellect.

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SEla what a wonderful thought.

I would add that as has been revealed in the Revelation, the attainment of the language of your suggestion will be attained on Mansonia #1 when we are actually able to perceive mota and fill the revealed gap, YES GAP, in our personal ability to perceive. Yet this also is there; the attainment of the realization of fusion is a potential for each of us even while here on 606 and yet the experience of mota or the language of metaphysics is not available or required. Interesting concept don't you think? After all Enoch, Elijah and any others, if there are any, surely had no concept of mota, but they must have had some sort of metaphysical attempt at unifying reality.

Jim


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no sophist wrote:
Here’s a fun stab at metaphysics:

( 433.2, 39:3.8 ) 5. The Transporters. "The fifth group of supervisor seraphim... "

We are told that these transporters travel at about three times light speed so I can assume metaphysically that the speed of communications between angelic transporters and their directors is at least that much?

Anyone want to guess at the maximum speed of communications?

If reflectivity is involved, would such communication be independent of time? Given the heredity of these ministering daughters of the daughters of the daughters of the Source and Center of Reflective Capacity, ... :smile:

Makalu wrote:
metaphysics and revelation are essentially the same in the papers:
Quote:

(1140.7, 103:9.1) "Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, metaphysics (revelation) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion. Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion, the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid."

Hi Makalu - given what the author wrote 3 sections earlier (see 103:6.8), I understand (103:9.1) to be saying that "... metaphysics (or revelation, if you have it) deals with the philosophic aspects."

For reference, here's what the author wrote 3 sections earlier:
Quote:
(1136.3, 103:6.8) "Metaphysics has proved a failure; mota, man cannot perceive. Revelation is the only technique which can compensate for the absence of the truth sensitivity of mota in a material world. Revelation authoritatively clarifies the muddle of reason-developed metaphysics on an evolutionary sphere."

So here's the way I understand that parenthetical use of "(revelation)"
Quote:
(1140.7, 103:9.1) "Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, "... metaphysics (NN: or revelation, if you have it) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion. Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion, the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid."

What do you think? Does this help to make sense of the difference between the way we try to patch logical gaps with metaphysics, versus the "authoritative elimination of error" (see 101:4.6) provided by epochal revelation?

Nigel


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Does this help to make sense of the difference between the way we try to patch logical gaps with metaphysics, versus the "authoritative elimination of error" (see 101:4.6) provided by epochal revelation?


the difference between the two is one of quality...their function is the same. truth is best had thru the Spirit and best criticized by revelation.


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Makalu wrote:
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Does this help to make sense of the difference between the way we try to patch logical gaps with metaphysics, versus the "authoritative elimination of error" (see 101:4.6) provided by epochal revelation?


the difference between the two is one of quality...their function is the same. truth is best had thru the Spirit and best criticized by revelation.


Like the difference between chewing on tree bark or steak? And I wonder if metaphysics is more about our material realities and personal revelation more about truth and our religious experience? Not merely quality but also subject and purpose?

Nigel...I wonder if the parenthetical example is personal revelation rather than epochal...as epochal is supernally factual while personal revelation is much less reliable and subject to distortion and misunderstanding personally?

Thus the critical need for and value of epochal revelation.


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Thank you Malaku.

It is a challenge we all struggle with. Appreciating the reality of "feelingly experienced" as a valid qualifier of personal assessment in substantiating our basis for our willingness to place our faith. Our intellectual habits want first rights to these perceptions, but they cannot fulfill our need to experience God. That decision we each must make, wherein we acknowledge the reality of spirit as a distinct and separate source of insight we have personally experienced, is the foundation of our ability to conceive of the quality of God as a reality perception. See paper 48 for the revelator's attempt to assist our appreciation of the value of Mota. "Feelingly experienced" is a distinct and separate source of input to our persons. The discernment of this is our attempt at bridging the gap, of metaphysics. Because the experience is deeply personal and because we are generally unfamiliar with the experience, our explanations are unable to fill the gap between mind and spirit. But we are not prevented from addressing the greater issue, that of experimentally transferring our identity from our intellect's understanding of all this to the accumulating quantity of quality perceptions made by pure spirit, personal interaction with God.

Jim


Last edited by Jim George on Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:39 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Like the difference between chewing on tree bark or steak?


they are both attempts to unify matter and spirit which is only the "stuff" of the universe and why metaphysics fails so horribly in the lack of morontia material


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Jim George wrote:
Thank you Malaku.

It is a challenge we all struggle with. Appreciating the reality of "feelingly experienced" as a valid qualifier of personal assessment in substantiating our basis for our willingness to place our faith. Our intellectual habits want first rights to these perceptions, but they cannot fulfill our need to experience God. That decision we each must make, wherein we acknowledge the reality of spirit as a distinct and separate source of insight we have personally experienced, is the foundation of our ability to conceive of the quality of God as a reality perception. See paper 48 for the revelator's attempt to assist our appreciation of the value of Mota. "Feelingly experienced" is a distinct and separate source of input to our persons. The discernment of this is our attempt at bridging the gap, of metaphysics. Because the experience is deeply personal and because we are generally unfamiliar with the experience, our explanations are unable to fill the gap between mind and spirit. But we are not prevented from addressing the greater issue, that of experientually transferring our identity from our intellect's understanding of all this to the accumulating quantity of quality perceptions made by pure spirit, personal interaction with God.

Jim


yeah and we aren't prevented from experiencing Unity because mind is unity and most of the divisions we perceive were first created by the same mind anyway :-)


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We are taught that our religious experience is biologically inherent...an evolutionary certainty. And that metaphysics is both the forbearer and constant companion of evolutionary science. And that our natural connection to and interaction with both realities of the material and spiritual natures follow similar progressive traits.

Personal revelation enhances and improves religious experience. From faith assurance to truth assurance. Likewise does metaphysics lead to the material facts of science. Over time less and less of reality is the invention and fictions of our metaphysics and more and more it becomes the factual and objective reality. We will progress beyond both faith assurance and metaphysics once we graduate from the material life.

Trurh and fact. Both evolve for the mortals of time. Both bring intuition, insight, and inspiration to the adventure of curiosity and discovery. Revelation evolves truth and metaphysics evolves fact. These are the devices and drivers of evolutionary progress and transformation of the spiritual and material experiences. Mind sorts, organizes, and integrates them while philosophy unifies and harmonizes them.

Or so I understand. 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:03 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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we can progress beyond the metaphysical attempts at developing a balanced two-dimensional philosophy and develop the unified, well-balanced 3-d religious philosophy presented in the papers...right now.


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