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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Could you explain why "knowledge" and "adjutant spirit" are in parenthesis, in paragraph 6 here you quoted? Does this imply from the text that science is a function of the adjutant spirit of knowledge? The inherent assumption, based on the adjutant spirits, the adjutant spirit's inherent assumption? Excuse for experiencing, the difficulty in the perspective presented by the syntax of the text. Whose assumption? Coordinate comprehension as an aspect of the adjutant mind spirit of wisdom?


The acquisition of knowledge is, by definition, science - the study of cause and effect. The adjutant of knowledge depends upon science - or speculation, reason, metaphysical inventions, insight, and inspiration to understand and explain cause and effect.

The inherent assumption by all mind, including the source of mind and the cosmic mind and morontia mind and adjutant mind, is that reason is valid; mind needs to know, mind seeks to understand as inevitably and inherently and naturally as mass responds to gravity. Mind may be far more than reason but it is never less than reasoning.

This is the very source and foundation of metaphysics AND science AND philosophy AND wisdom too I think. Logic is but a tool and technique of reason. You may consider the quote as a declaration of fact...facts may be assumed when seeking understanding by reason. The mind always seeks to know, understand, and explain....inherently so. The assumption then is universal to all mind.

Read 36:5.9

Also read 36:5.12

Factual comprehension requires the experience of validation of reason and speculations which results in wisdom and truth acquirement and applications. An integration of meaning and value, fact and truth, material and spiritual into a coordinated reality.

Read 103:9.9 and .10 for more.

Somehow, even false beliefs and faulty metaphysics do not prevent either wisdom or spiritual progress.

This opinion is as I understand it.

:idea: :?: 8)


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It seems as if the author is referring to the will, which is potentially activated in the human indivdual. What is the source of this will, it is effectuated through the orchestration of the adjutant mind spirits. What is the result of maturation within the orchestration of the adjutant mind spirits, wisdom. I guess my question is, are they saying "knowledge" in the directly implicative sense of "the adjutant spirit of knowledge"? I.E. "Knowledge as the manifestation of the fourth adjutant mind spirit", rather than the colloquial "knowledge as any useful idea".

What is coordinate comprehension it is the ability of the human individual, in this sense, to receive the energies and perspective of the Divine Minister. It is called wisdom, but it also the act of allowing the Divine Minister "to live and breathe and have his being" in your own human form. Wisdom as the manifestation of the seventh adjutant mind spirit, not as a human concept.

Are they saying, knowledge is the consequence or result of the fourth adjutant spirit, parenthetically?

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God is the source of free will. All beings with mind are also given the gift of free will. I don't think free will is activated by the adjutants...please provide some text for the claim? I think perhaps free will is inherent in and by mind itself - all mind, not limited to adjutant mind which does not operate anywhere in the universe except upon the evolutionary, material worlds within the minds of evolutionary, material mortals born on those spheres. Mind and free will are universal.

Knowledge is not a manifestation....text please again? Knowledge is the awareness of facts and relationship. It is a term indicating the awareness of fact and meaning. It is a function of awareness and reason and understanding...by learning.

Coordinate comprehension is the ability of mind to learn, reason, understand, perceive, discern, be aware of, and know information and to correlate that with experience and truth and revelation into an integrated and harmonious perception and perspective of reality...or so I understand. Worth more research!! Glad you ask.


I consider these declarations to be false: You said - "What is coordinate comprehension it is the ability of the human individual, in this sense, to receive the energies and perspective of the Divine Minister. It is called wisdom, but it also the act of allowing the Divine Minister "to live and breathe and have his being" in your own human form. Wisdom as the manifestation of the seventh adjutant mind spirit, not as a human concept."



Wisdom is not a gift...it is earned and experiential. Neither is knowledge a "consequence or result of the fourth adjutant spirit" - parenthetically or otherwise. Knowledge is likewise earned and experiential. Or so I understand. Another good question to research - I look forward to your research on the matter and your posting of those relevant quotes.


:idea: 8)


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A manifestation of the Divine Minister, not of itself. Whether you accept it or not, the Urantia Papers provide a model for human existance that includes the Divine Minister extenuating her presence and life in the living creatures through this adjutant mind ministry. In theory "coordinate comprehension" could be the metaphysical paraphrasing of what is considered to be "the spirit of wisdom".

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
A manifestation of the Divine Minister, not of itself. Whether you accept it or not, the Urantia Papers provide a model for human existance that includes the Divine Minister extenuating her presence and life in the living creatures through this adjutant mind ministry. In theory "coordinate comprehension" could be the metaphysical paraphrasing of what is considered to be "the spirit of wisdom".


Knowledge is not a manifestation of the Divine Minister - mind is. The learning and embrace of knowledge is also not a manifestation of the Divine Minister but is a function of mind - but mind is also not the same thing as the Divine Minister but is bestowed by the Divine Minister. Mind is not the extenuating of the Divine Minister's presence either (whatever that means) but the mind is the vehicle for the Divine Minister's ministry to and in and by mind.

Whether you accept it or not, all creatures above animals, including humans/mortals have coordinate comprehension (as do all celestials but NOT by the Adjutants which are not connected to soul, morontia mind, or spirit mind).

Material mind only is connected to the Adjutants and we are to become weaned away from the Adjutants as we transfer the seat of our identity and spiritize mind in cooperation with our TA. The more spiritualized we become, the less and less does the Adjutant of Wisdom coordinate our comprehension and the more and more does the Thought Adjuster reveal truth and deliver experiential wisdom which is realized in mind but grows soul. Soul is also mind....but is not connected to the Adjutants.


Please review Paper 34 and 36 to learn about the Holy Spirit and the Adjutant ministries. And again, please post actual text which support your claims and proclamations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would make far fewer errors and false claims if you would but only read the text FIRST and post it with your claims.


You're making stuff up again Stephen.

Metaphysical constructs are false, or incomplete at best, in mortal mind and related to reason and knowledge, not wisdom.

Your theory is false, without text support, and contradicts the UB....as usual.

:roll:


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The Spirit of Knowledge as a manifestation of the Divine Minister living within the living human tabernacle.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The Spirit of Knowledge as a manifestation of the Divine Minister living within the living human tabernacle.



But the Spirit of Knowledge is NOT knowledge Steven. Try to be consistant. All beings acquire knowledge. Only material minded mortal beings on their planet of birth are attached to the Adjutants...as I keep pointing out time after time! Animals and humans...living on Urantia and all such worlds of material evolution...that's it!

But all minds beyond the material also gather knowledge and understanding and wisdom...and do so, as will we mortal ascenders, without utilization of or engagement with the Adjutants.


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Well that was the question that I asked in the first place. I asked if it would be possible to interpolate the Author's usage of "knowledge", to be directly implicative of the meaning "the Spirit of Knowledge", and not the colloquial capitulation of "knowledge." So you are saying that the author is referring to human knowledge and not "the Spirit of Knowledge", or the fourth spirit of the adjutant mind.

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Knowledge and science (the pursuit of knowledge to understand and explain observations) does not originate in or with the Adjutants except in the animal kingdom and for humans on the material worlds. Knowledge and science are universal Stephen and all mind in all beings share them but do not have any connection to the Adjutants.

The Spirit of Knowledge is NOT knowledge and the Divine Minister is NOT mind OR knowledge. I have given you the reading references if only you would read them and then post those that bring questions to your mind.

8) :roll:


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I recheck your earlier elaborations. You declared a few days ago, something along the lines that Metaphysics can be faulty. I feel, on this pebble, beyond incredulity: obsurdity. Metaphysics is one of God's habits/laws, and therefore will never be broken or changed. You can make your opinion but try to be scientifically accurate and philosophically valid I ask of you.

You try to reinforce your opinion and I am trying to sympathise but where is your proof that "knowledge" meant "experiencial knowhow" or something like this, rather than "the Spirit of Knowledge." Therefore, it is yet open to my consideration. To me, it is still possible despite your insistence, and demand that I again and again rephrase the question.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I recheck your earlier elaborations. You declared a few days ago, something along the lines that Metaphysics can be faulty. I feel, on this pebble, beyond incredulity: obsurdity. Metaphysics is one of God's habits/laws, and therefore will never be broken or changed. You can make your opinion but try to be scientifically accurate and philosophically valid I ask of you.

You try to reinforce your opinion and I am trying to sympathise but where is your proof that "knowledge" meant "experiencial knowhow" or something like this, rather than "the Spirit of Knowledge." Therefore, it is yet open to my consideration. To me, it is still possible despite your insistence, and demand that I again and again rephrase the question.


Yes Steven, metaphysics are faulty, fictional even - not factual or accurate. They are speculation and imagination and inventions of the mind. They are substitutes for fact and true science. However they are the result of reason and sometimes logic and intuition and even inspiration (all of which combine into a form of revelation described in the UB as "self revelation" - the ability of self to discover/reveal truth) and act as to temporarily hold the place of true knowledge and empirical verifications of fact which comes later by the scientific method.

Metaphysics is a functional part OF the scientific method...that part which imagines solutions to questions about reality, especially regarding the unknown causes of known effects and the unknown effects of known causes. Metaphysics is certainly NOT one of God's laws Steven...not by any definition of the word. Again, please provide text for such a claim!

As to this quote you obsess about:

103:9.8 (1141.6) Science (knowledge) is founded on the inherent (adjutant spirit) assumption that reason is valid, that the universe can be comprehended. Philosophy (co-ordinate comprehension) is founded on the inherent (spirit of wisdom) assumption that wisdom is valid, that the material universe can be co-ordinated with the spiritual. Religion (the truth of personal spiritual experience) is founded on the inherent (Thought Adjuster) assumption that faith is valid, that God can be known and attained.


The word "knowledge" is used in the text, not "the Spirit of Knowledge". So why would the author mean one thing but say another? The wording and meaning are quite obvious in the text for one who reads the Revelation literally as I do. For those of you who invent hidden meanings and codes and keys of mystery....well you must answer for yourselves! Knowledge is the quest or goal and very purpose of the scientific method...accurate, true, and verifiable knowledge of reality is science. All other speculations and theories and dogmas and creeds and theologies are merely metaphysics and is certainly not God's law. Metaphysics seeks to explain God's laws which are not scientifically explained already.

For me, the Revelation says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't and it says what it means to says and intends to say what it does say. And I have no intention or interest in convincing you of anything at all Steven. No interest whatsoever.


Some prior text already posted:


"Always, in the absence of revelation or in the failure to accept or grasp it, has mortal man resorted to his futile gesture of metaphysics, that being the only human substitute for the revelation of truth or for the mota of morontia personality."


[i][b]"...both science and religion are predicated on assumptions."



"Metaphysics has proved a failure.."


"..were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe."

[/b][/i]
"...Always, in the absence of revelation or in the failure to accept or grasp it, has mortal man resorted to his futile gesture of metaphysics, that being the only human substitute for the revelation of truth or for the mota of morontia personality."

A few more quotes to consider:

101:2.7 Science ends its reason-search in the hypothesis of a First Cause. Religion does not stop in its flight of faith until it is sure of a God of salvation. The discriminating study of science logically suggests the reality and existence of an Absolute. Religion believes unreservedly in the existence and reality of a God who fosters personality survival. What metaphysics fails utterly in doing, and what even philosophy fails partially in doing, revelation does; that is, affirms that this First Cause of science and religion's God of salvation are one and the same Deity.

101:2.8 Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, logic the proof of philosophy, but revelation is validated only by human experience. Science yields knowledge; religion yields happiness; philosophy yields unity; revelation confirms the experiential harmony of this triune approach to universal reality.

101:3.1 Religion is so vital that it persists in the absence of learning. It lives in spite of its contamination with erroneous cosmologies and false philosophies; it survives even the confusion of metaphysics....


Believe whatever you will Steven....whatever you might invent for yourself in your own metaphysical fictions and fantasies. But the UB itself is clear enough for me. "The confusion of metaphysics" is man's substitute for knowledge, the "contamination with erroneous cosmologies and false philosophies".


The good news for you and for all of us is that such fictions do not prevent religious experience, soul growth, and personal progress and transformation....and THIS is the real subject of study and ponderment of this topical discussion. Do you get that yet????


8) :idea:


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Let me start with "the confusion of metaphysics". Indeed this is part of the topic I feel at liberty to explain, at least a bit.

A week after you opened this thread, I said "Wow! An entire older generation views metaphysics through the lense of philosophy, whereas an entire generation younger than I treats this stuff as science!" (As presumptuous as it sounds, this has been my observation.) Let me explain. We do not have much if at all information regarding the impetus of reception for the human mind. Or the proper identification as to the source of this spirit/energy, that is received from the human mind (capacity).

Why is that? One thing is that the theory of "superhero" is something that impacts directly upon the psyche of children growing up in my nation. How do they (they as in "the fantastic Child" rather than the fictional hero) attain powers, or pretend to receive them? Many of the archetypes seem to depict some facet of intense physical strengths, or to control one of the laws of physics say, but rarely do depict actual psychological strengths. My friend who became a psychiatrist particularly liked "Batman" since he was someone who had no especial "superpowers", and therefore would compensate through various forms of ingenuity or surveillance, in order to protect his "Gotham City". This aspect of the culture could be the reason why Children would approach "the metaphysical" as though actual and not merely theoretical as your generation had.

Your point about fallacious theories surrounding metaphysics, the delusions and inaccuracies, will not prevent the intense interest in metaphysics, or experimentations to enhance the spiritual receptivity of the human mind. But really, as I have theorized, we (we humans of Urantia?) will not possess adequate supposition for the approach of true metaphysics until the stages of light and life whence such dynamics hopefully will be edified and explained, even as becoming a type of common knowledge. Ourselves, sociologically, will have to muddle through this "twilight era" of Urantian history, in an attempt to forge an accurate treatise you know between God and man which will illuminate the actuality of metaphysics, or especially the metaphysics of the human psychospiritual dynamic.

As Makalu has purported, the Urantia Book has laid a foundation for the metaphysical approach. It has laid the foundation for the approach of the human individual to acquaintenceship and even Sonship with God, a relationship per se where we strive to identify God as being our actual Spirit-Father.

You need to treat metaphysics as being actual, even if there is 0 information, in order to identify God the Universal Father as your actual personal Father and not just theoretical Father.

I should admit that not all of my theory concerning metaphysics comes from the Urantia Book: it is also derived from socialisation, contemplation, and the philosophersEmanuel Swedenborg and Ralph Emerson among others. But the prophet Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Lao Tsu also must have factored somehow into my consideration. Especially if, as Isaiah has claimed, that God could make a new covenant with mankind, then our understanding of metaphysical dynamics might have to be periodically reappraised.

He has, since I have posited my original theory, provided numerous insights and affirmations which have helped me to better identify the nature of metaphysics. I have pivoted from my viewpoint of "central universe understanding as essential to understading metaphysics" to "personality understanding as essential to understanding metaphysics". These are theories that I have which are open to consideration.

However what did I mean originally when I suggested that "Metaphysical Understanding or Insight would be gained through a through understanding/analysis of the Power Directors"? That if we could understand how the energy comes out of the central universe and into our jurisdiction (Satania), we could understand better the nature of the universe. Physics would be the complete understanding of the basic laws of Newtonian motion and thermodynamics, and metaphysics would include this but also spiritual dynamics and even the dynamics of the Cosmic Mind.

One of the issues that most concerns me in metaphysics: how does the human individual strive and gain the optimization of his own spiritual receptivity?
Prayer...never fails to expand the soul's capacity for spiritual receptivity. (144:4.1)
Spirit reception is influenced by mind design, specifically, by the organization of certain glands that produce differing chemical endowments. Mortal survival is dependent on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul. (http://www.urantiabook.org/newbook/ose- ... soe_49.htm)

So to me, metaphysics contains the crux of the relationship of the physical tabernacle of the soul-indwellt human individual, and its ability for spiritual reception, therefore the influence that "willingness" or "personality" plays in the induction of spiritual-mind. How does the unified psychological perspective discover its directives, and how do the execution of directives employed by the human individual influence the shape of his world, basically you know through strident efforts, surgical sensitivity, and psychological insight.

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Of course, until the scientific community is able to establish an actual foothold on the holistic and essential understanding of homo sapiens sapiens, you know as a sentient being, it is appropiate to still relegate our conversation if not consideration of "the metaphysical" in the realm of philosophy where we may thereby gain insight that may help them to do so.

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Bradly - ok on metaphysics - I see this is your post and wanted to comment - even tho I am a beginner with UB - I grew up in/with Christian Science - which is metaphysical "religion" Mind over matter and the Christ/Spirit over the mortal body - and don't quote me as am not good with big quotes - CS based on the Christ and the Spirit with teh inspiried word of the bible - using passages that make the statement - but not using passages in he bible that are about killing and stuff
- from 1890's or so and am now reading the UB with an amazing amount of stuff that even goes way beyond CS to a point - albeit with much more detail - but CS on it's own is a very metaphysical PRE view of the UB - in my opinion - anyway - the talk of the holy spirit all the the rest of the UB is leading into all sorts of metaphysical thoughts as it implores us to look at the huge array of Spiritual beings and such mentioned in the UB - anyway - just my point of view after my very short reading of UB - is making much sense and speaking true from the heart of the Infinite Spirit - very much like CS book Sience and Health with Key to the Scriptures... but enuff said - the UB book is making big strides forwards along he metaphysical realms that i grew up with - totally forward looking and big on the whole story ...
and Mind/Spirit over matter and in the Christ Spirit - anyway - onwards and upwards in the Spirit of Christ

steve


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Thanks Steve. An important aspect of metaphysics is that the more we know and understand, the more there is still or now to learn and understand. The more we know the more there is to know! Ignorance is not eliminated by knowledge but is merely reduced...or increased depending on whether what is learned reveals even more to conceptualize than before. How big is the reservoir of the unknown or misunderstood? Metaphysics or the speculative attempt to know and understand and explain reality will always lead us forward into discovery....if our prejudice does not halt tje process!

8)


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