Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:13 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 937
Location: Brooklyn NY
This issue came up in another topic. I think it deserves it's own thread and welcome all opinions. Let's take a look at the following revelation.

Quote:
130:8.4 (1440.4) At last they reached Naples and felt they were not far from their destination, Rome. Gonod had much business to transact in Naples, and aside from the time Jesus was required as interpreter, he and Ganid spent their leisure visiting and exploring the city. Ganid was becoming adept at sighting those who appeared to be in need. They found much poverty in this city and distributed many alms. But Ganid never understood the meaning of Jesus’ words when, after he had given a coin to a street beggar, he refused to pause and speak comfortingly to the man. Said Jesus: “Why waste words upon one who cannot perceive the meaning of what you say? The spirit of the Father cannot teach and save one who has no capacity for sonship.” What Jesus meant was that the man was not of normal mind; that he lacked the ability to respond to spirit leading.


Before I present my argument I want to pose the following for you to ponder:

Does this beggar have the capacity to change his station in life?

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
Subnormal mind is typically a situation where one has a physical brain defect or other incapacity such as is caused by Downs Syndrome or other illness. So, to the extent that medical science is able, currently and in the future, able to remediate the impacts on the brain would determine the ability to 'progress to a normal mind'.

I think there are just way too many variables and individual circumstances to say a simple yes or no to the question posed in the subject line here. The way the UB says that subnormal minds have no capacity to know God or to make average decisions seems like that would be extremely difficult to overcome - certainly to the extent that one eventually attains a "normal mind". That seems extremely unlikely. But not impossible, maybe.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
A point of clarification, though. I am assuming this question is in the context of material life on Urantia.

If you are asking if it is possible, throughout the entire ascension career (Mansion Worlds and beyond), please state as such, now (so goal posts don't get moved later).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 937
Location: Brooklyn NY
Let me ask you this, Agon, is this beggar subnormal minded? If not, what sort of mind does he possess?

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3759
His "station in life" - beggar - is irrelevant. The question is can he change his "capacity" for transitioning from subnormal to normal mind. Seems doubtful. Especially back then.

Will modern science and medicine be able to overcome such a birth defect of the mind?

Those with brain injuries and disease which reduces brain/mind capacity that was once "normal" will survive I think to the morontia mind after death based on spiritual progress and soul birth/growth prior to the injury or loss of capacity.

A related question is whether the subnormal minded might enter the mansion worlds as infants do, there to be given the chance for the spirit experience. I have my doubts.

I had a great uncle (my grandfather's little brother) who suffered oxygen depravation at birth and grew up with only the "capacity" of a 10 year old. I am quite certain he gave birth to soul and had the spirit within and was filled with love and joy I know.

But what of those who cannot connect the 7 adjutants and cannot give birth to soul? An interesting question.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3759
brooklyn_born wrote:
Let me ask you this, Agon, is this beggar subnormal minded? If not, what sort of mind does he possess?


I think a mind that cannot make connection to the mind and spirit ministries that define humanity...worship and wisdom. Without that capacity, then there can be no spirit ministry and soul or spiritization and Circle Progress. The ability to learn and acquire wisdom is key. No need to be a genius but one must have an operational processor.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
What does being a beggar (including this beggar in the UB quote) have to do with one’s mind capacity? One can be poor and be a genius. I agree with Bradly, a “beggar” is irrelevant to the question of mind capacity.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
brooklyn_born wrote:
Let me ask you this, Agon, is this beggar subnormal minded? If not, what sort of mind does he possess?


The UB / Jesus says he was. I don’t understand why you ask this - it’s right there plainly stated in the text.

It means that specific beggar was; not all beggars.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 799
fanofVan wrote:
I think a mind that cannot make connection to the mind and spirit ministries that define humanity...worship and wisdom. Without that capacity, then there can be no spirit ministry and soul or spiritization and Circle Progress.


I agree with that. The individual had no capacity for sonship, therefore did not have a soul. He was not God-conscious, he did not have the capacity for knowing God as a personal religious experience.

(27.1) 1:4.6 The divine presence which any child of the universe enjoys at any given moment is limited only by the capacity of such a creature to receive and to discern the spirit actualities of the supermaterial world.

(26.1) 1:3.7 The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led.

The author called the beggar a man which tells me he had some ability to respond at least to the spirit of worship but unable to have it censored or directed by wisdom to the point of soul birth. A soul is necessary in order to respond to spirit leading, that is spirit leading from the supermaterial world, either from the Holy Spirit or the Thought Adjuster. (Since this is pre-Pentecost, I left out the Spirit of Truth).

(1142.1) 103:9.10 When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 937
Location: Brooklyn NY
I asked because I believe his mental state plays a role in his station in life. Many beggars are unable or unwilling to possess normal will power and wind up making poor decisions in life that lead to bad outcomes. Subnormally minded people lack capacity for intelligent worship, but I do not think that that kind of mind is necessarily permanent during the course of the life of the person. I believe some possess capacity to turn around the way they think so that they can be receptive to spiritual ministry.

Subnormal minded people are assigned a company of Seraphim to minister to them. I think based on the function of a Seraphim as relayed to us by Revelators, subnormal minds get stimulated constantly to be more spiritually receptive; they "continually seek to promote circle-making decisions in human mind." I think Seraphims work to engage nonfunctioning sixth adjutant in the subnormal mind.

Further, I do not think that the beggar was autistic or suffered some kind of mental illness. Nothing in the narrative suggests this. In fact, Ganid did not perceive the beggar as "mad" otherwise he would not have been bewildered by Jesus choosing not to minister the word onto the beggar.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Let me ask you this, Agon, is this beggar subnormal minded? If not, what sort of mind does he possess?


The UB / Jesus says he was. I don’t understand why you ask this - it’s right there plainly stated in the text.

It means that specific beggar was; not all beggars.

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
BB wrote:
"I do not think that that kind of mind is necessarily permanent during the course of the life of the person. I believe some possess capacity to turn around the way they think so that they can be receptive to spiritual ministry."

Well, if that were true, why would Jesus refuse to offer a comforting word to such a person? If Seraphim are capable of helping turn around a subnormal mind to progress toward a normal mind, as you suppose in your post above, how much MORE capable would Jesus be at doing so?

How heartless of Jesus to turn away from an opportunity to help a subnormal minded beggar to become normal minded so that he may seek God (and potentially, as you suppose above, turn his life around and better his station in life?) That doesn't ring true for me at all. Jesus wouldn't do that. The UB tells us that Jesus changed people's lives simply by smiling at them.

This person had to have been hopelessly subnormal minded, or Jesus would have helped him. Of that, I am sure.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
The UB states very plainly:

Quote:
130:8.4 (1440.4) At last they reached Naples and felt they were not far from their destination, Rome. Gonod had much business to transact in Naples, and aside from the time Jesus was required as interpreter, he and Ganid spent their leisure visiting and exploring the city. Ganid was becoming adept at sighting those who appeared to be in need. They found much poverty in this city and distributed many alms. But Ganid never understood the meaning of Jesus’ words when, after he had given a coin to a street beggar, he refused to pause and speak comfortingly to the man. Said Jesus: “Why waste words upon one who cannot perceive the meaning of what you say? The spirit of the Father cannot teach and save one who has no capacity for sonship.” What Jesus meant was that the man was not of normal mind; that he lacked the ability to respond to spirit leading.


No capacity is NO CAPACITY. That means there is not even the potential to be normal minded (of the Urantia Book definition of such).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 937
Location: Brooklyn NY
Agreed. A subnormal mind possesses no capacity to know God. At the time the two, Jesus and the beggar, cross path, the latter lacks ability to respond to spirit leading. He is not ready to hear Jesus' word of salvation because of his mindset. But this mindset refers to a very specific "TIME" the two make contact. I do not think that that necessarily means he is doomed to this fate for the rest of his life in the flesh. Jesus is addressing a situation in a specific time-frame.

My position is if this man has no mental illness or has mental illness that could be overcome for intelligent worship, he can transform his mind and become "normal."

Agon D. Onter wrote:
The UB states very plainly:

Quote:
130:8.4 (1440.4) At last they reached Naples and felt they were not far from their destination, Rome. Gonod had much business to transact in Naples, and aside from the time Jesus was required as interpreter, he and Ganid spent their leisure visiting and exploring the city. Ganid was becoming adept at sighting those who appeared to be in need. They found much poverty in this city and distributed many alms. But Ganid never understood the meaning of Jesus’ words when, after he had given a coin to a street beggar, he refused to pause and speak comfortingly to the man. Said Jesus: “Why waste words upon one who cannot perceive the meaning of what you say? The spirit of the Father cannot teach and save one who has no capacity for sonship.” What Jesus meant was that the man was not of normal mind; that he lacked the ability to respond to spirit leading.


No capacity is NO CAPACITY. That means there is not even the potential to be normal minded (of the Urantia Book definition of such).

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:52 am +0000
Posts: 942
How, then, do you explain Jesus' refusal to talk to this man? If the issue is only "mindset" as you say, that can easily be changed; especially as a result of contact with Jesus.

I do not think subnormal minded means "mindset". I think it means brain defect; physical abnormality that prevents the brain from functioning normally. This is not in the power of man or angels to change short of a lobotomy.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 937
Location: Brooklyn NY
I explained it. He was not ready to hear Jesus' word the time he made contact with the master teacher. His mindset was not fertile ground to receive the seed of truth. Also, I never said that that mindset easily can be changed. It takes considerable effort for a subnormal mind to change its way of thinking.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
How, then, do you explain Jesus' refusal to talk to this man? If the issue is only "mindset" as you say, that can easily be changed; especially as a result of contact with Jesus.

I do not think subnormal minded means "mindset". I think it means brain defect; physical abnormality that prevents the brain from functioning normally. This is not in the power of man or angels to change short of a lobotomy.

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 34 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group