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Riktare wrote:
The tritone interval: The Devil's Chord :)

Maybe that designation should be taken with a grain of salt, even though it was taken very seriously by officials of The Catholic Church centuries ago. On the other hand, I suspect our non-mortal superiors really do not understand or appreciate music that relies heavily on the tritone's use. The tritone interval lies inside the Dominant 7th chord and gives it its unsettled and arguably ugly and enigmatic presence in music. That said, the dominant 7th is used rather much in Western music, especially in Blues, Jazz, more straightforward Classical and Country music. I believe one encounters it quite rarely in Oriental music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_seventh_chord

Actually, it might be the specific voicings of the Dominant 7th chord that set it apart as somehow being "special". Experienced Jazz musicians often remove the tones that create its pungent aroma and substitute extended tones such as all variations of the 9th, 11th and 13th. Classical composers do likewise and often invert the tonal sequence. In the end, maybe a raw and basic Dominant 7th is an acquired taste but one that has been cultivated for at least decades in certain cultures.


But no matter how abrasive the 7th may be taken it is a valid harmonic.
Find a long piano and push down the lowest c natural (c1) slowly without making any sound and hold it down so it can sing sympathetically and then go up to b flat 3 and play staccato. It should excite the 7th in the open c1 wire.
This should be valid for just about anything that can vibrate.
Question is, why is it abrasive?
Ray Charles piece sweet 16 bars is a beautiful and pleasing use of the 7th.
Oriental harmonic compositions are soothing to the point of boredom unless you use them to enhance sleep.


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alwilliams767 wrote:
Fan o' Van: You NAILED IT, dude. I agree that a lot of real evangelism is actions, not words. Random acts of kindness are the best kind of evangelism around. For me, words often just get in the way.



I think it might be useful for discussion to divide evangelists into two groups - natural evangelists and missionary evangelists. Natural evangelists are everyday folks have a personal religious experience based on faith and truth which delivers the fruits of the spirit to their branch attached to the vine which fruit they willingly and generously share with others...specifically and generally. I think of them as being unintentional...they simply are expressing their inner life with others, its a reflexive sharing and caring that does not require intent and thought so much as just a basic motive and priority to help and serve others.


Missionary evangelists often feel a calling and compulsion, being compelled to very intentionally form or join a specific activity seeking out others for their personal or group ministry. Most of this topic and discussion has been focused on these evangelists and this form of evangelism - currently and historically.


But I wonder if it is the first group, the natural evangelists who provide the better and more effective and longer lasting effects upon our world? Isn't this the way every world actually proceeds throught the Mortal Epochs of time? As go the parts so goes the whole? As the parts mature in faith and the relgious experience, and as the fruits of the Spirit materialize and effect the faithful and influence and inspire others in their own faith experience, a world becomes transformed.


Are the missionary type of evangelist less important and relevant as a world is spiritualized through the epochs as more natural evangelism rises and the fruits of the spirit are more widely shared amongst us?


It seems to me that missionary evangelism comes so often with belief, creed, doctrine, and a limiting theology and frequently also comes with blame and guilt and disappointment and demand and deadline and the motive of fear to spur behavioral changes; while natural evangelism simply spreads love through truth, beauty, and goodness so that others might see and taste the sweet fruits of faith and might become inspired in their own personal and unique experience and expressions of faith and truth.


The religious experience of faith and truth is so highly personalized. The artist who portrays their inner experience by pen, brush, instrument, note, voice, design, and all other expressions of that connection within, inspire others to feel, to think, to wonder, and come to know or hope to know such a connection for themselves. Such inspiration can come from so many sources including but not limited to art forms.

I am inspired by science and learning about animals and plants and planets and stars!! Such beauty and power and all the handiwork of Michael and God. Fascination and wonder inspire the mind to consider the source and the cause and the connections of everything. This innate wonder is a gift to lead us to faith and that to truth and that to relationship with Deity and a sublime peace and confidence in this friendly universe. And I am awed by so many people and peoples who find this sublime peace and faith and hope and trust despite deep and abiding suffering!

I am inspired by the historical record of struggle and evolutionary progress in the UB. I have always be inspired by Gandhi and MLK and modern Jews and all those around the world who are persecuted and under the heel of abuse and power, the struggles of the oppressed who overcome all suffering eventually by faith. The stories of those who are afflicted and suffer mightily who STILL demonstrate kindness and generosity and forgiveness like Jesus did so long ago. Neighbors helping neighbors in times of disaster and loss. Strangers from around the world joining together to respond to natural disasters in far away places. I have met some of the "lost boys", orphans of war who survived atrocities too mean to tell and whose faces glowed with happiness and powerful faith as they demonstrated generosity and joy.


Our world is filled with such examples and such inspiration!! Do we see that? Are we inspired? Do we live to inspire? Do we inspire as we live? Aren't the most oppressed who respond to faith, the greatest of all citizens of this world and of this universe? The greatest and highest of Agondonters are the least and the last among us here and now. We should all celebrate their victories and be inspired to live in love and share truth, beauty, and goodness.


8) Bradly

99:7.3 (1093.1) Religion inspires man to live courageously and joyfully on the face of the earth; it joins patience with passion, insight to zeal, sympathy with power, and ideals with energy.

99:7.4 (1093.2) Man can never wisely decide temporal issues or transcend the selfishness of personal interests unless he meditates in the presence of the sovereignty of God and reckons with the realities of divine meanings and spiritual values.


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no sophist wrote:
But no matter how abrasive the 7th may be taken it is a valid harmonic.


Yes, you're right of course. The 7th tone is not the problem and, at least to my ears, Almost any chord with a 7th sounds very, very sweet.
The problem is playing the major 3rd while playing the (minor) 7th - the tritone. If you leave out the 3rd then the chord sounds fine and fitting to almost any musical situation. Rather many fine musicians do exactly that. One side effect of that is that the chord and musical setting develops an ambiguity whether the tone is major or minor. That can be leveraged to great effect on which a sophisticated and compelling development of musical ideas can flow.

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Oriental harmonic compositions are soothing to the point of boredom unless you use them to enhance sleep.


I tend to agree. There are times when that is what you want to hear, but other times you want excitement and stirring emotional impact.


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Riktare wrote:
no sophist wrote:
But no matter how abrasive the 7th may be taken it is a valid harmonic.


Yes, you're right of course. The 7th tone is not the problem and, at least to my ears, Almost any chord with a 7th sounds very, very sweet.
The problem is playing the major 3rd while playing the (minor) 7th - the tritone. If you leave out the 3rd then the chord sounds fine and fitting to almost any musical situation. Rather many fine musicians do exactly that. One side effect of that is that the chord and musical setting develops an ambiguity whether the tone is major or minor. That can be leveraged to great effect on which a sophisticated and compelling development of musical ideas can flow.

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Oriental harmonic compositions are soothing to the point of boredom unless you use them to enhance sleep.


I tend to agree. There are times when that is what you want to hear, but other times you want excitement and stirring emotional impact.


Never thought about the tri tone quite like that
Thx for the insight


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103:8.2 (1140.2) The confusion about the experience of the certainty of God arises out of the dissimilar interpretations and relations of that experience by separate individuals and by different races of men. The experiencing of God may be wholly valid, but the discourse about God, being intellectual and philosophical, is divergent and oftentimes confusingly fallacious.

Me here: Jesus had such a knack for finding the common understanding and shared perspectives of such divergent and confusing issues that language generally seems so lacking in its capabilities to communicate such personal religious experiences as faith experience and truth assurance. He seemed able to do so no matter the wisdom or its lack in the other person or how weak the flicker or strong the flame of the believers around him. Indeed, could he so effectively present to a crowd filled with every spectrum point of comprehension and appreciation in ways to brighten the illumination of all within.

Rodan claimed we are not having much of a religious experience if we are not eager to share it! He did not really advise us how best to achieve this urge…but perhaps we might discuss how best to share the experience of such deeply personal growth and perspective ?

I think we should consider how to become effective evangels of truth, beauty, and goodness. Not to become preachers or teachers or those intent to “save” others or humanity from anything. But how to share our own inner light and experience and relationship without becoming “confusingly fallacious”. How can we add fuel to the fire to kindle the existing light within others that we might serve others kindly and lovingly and graciously? How do we achieve that without wrongly attempting to remove things and correct beliefs and replace the metaphysics of others with our own?

For it is a fact that even armed with the knowledge contained in this epochal revelation about reality, which replaces our own metaphysical constructions and inventions with actual facts, until someone else has also accepted the authority and the facts provided in the UB, then even those facts we know to be true are but our personal metaphysics of belief when compared to any other’s! The facts within the FER are not facts until believed as such and are then only beliefs still after all...at least to others!!

In other words, we may not take any great assumption of superior knowledge with us to our efforts to evangelize truth, beauty, and goodness to others. Think of the knowledge the Son of God had to deliver and share with others that contradicted the fictions and fallacies of this world. Yet he championed reality and truth without such knowledge as a tool or a weapon of conviction or conversion or domination or superiority! He gently fanned the flames of faith and added kindling to the fires of truth within everyone he met. I’ve been thinking about this a great deal lately and there are two key words and strategies I’d like to consider here related to how best to share our inner light and life with others in the most effective and loving way possible.

They are “inspire” and “assure” or inspiration and assurance. It is my opinion that the words of the Master and those within the Revelation have these elements in common and that this pattern of reality-presentation and truth-sharing is tactically effective in removing barriers of inherent disagreement over the description and understanding of reality and the religious experience due to language and its inability to adequately express that experience. Does music and art also remove such barriers?

Yes and no...not everyone is moved or inspired by the same music or the same art expressions either. We respond to certain expressions and find some music and art inspirational, but not all. And thus we are given further demonstration of the great value and benefit of diversity in our experiences and our expressions of those experiences. Or so I think!

We are taught that although the reality of religious experience is personal and unique to the each of us, it is also common among the all of us. It is not unique or personal to have a religious experience or to have faith or to give birth to soul or to host the God Fragment within or to deal with realities from the dual nature perspective or to enjoy the urges, yearns, hungers, and thirsts of righteousness and the rewards and fruits of the spirit by the attachment of the branch to the vine. These are not unique to any of us except in their experience!

So I wonder if the most successful evangels find ways to inspire others and assure others of God’s love and our familial relationship in this friendly universe while assuaging fears and reducing anxieties by sharing our faith and inner peace and poise and confidence in the fact of love and the results of love? I think so...yes.


Bradly :wink: 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:50 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
Does music and art also remove such barriers?

Yes and no...not everyone is moved or inspired by the same music or the same art expressions either. We respond to certain expressions and find some music and art inspirational, but not all. And thus we are given further demonstration of the great value and benefit of diversity in our experiences and our expressions of those experiences. Or so I think!


I think so too. I'd even go so far as to say that some musicians have such strong faith that they evangelize in a not necessarily verbal way. There may even be some who have powerful self-acting adjusters who create this type of communication: adjuster -> host -> musical expression -> host -> adjuster. If the human hosts are able to share a mutually recognized higher concept or even morontia concept they very well may share morontia experiences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGtjr-U5bT4


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What about effort?
The desire to either evangelize or be evangelized?
The desire to produce a great work of art or to appreciate a great work of art?
No matter how simple or complex the music, there is always more than the music itself if you take the time/effort to study. Only persons can do this, that’s a revelation in itself.
No matter how simple or complex the revelation, there is always more to discover with study and effort.
Compare 4th epochal to 5th and then plan and compare your evangelizing.
Analogous to : you must not only be something, you must do something.
I’m still trying to find meaning and value in the bagpipe, all I get is pick up the sword and march. But it is moving even if it irritates the ears like nails on a blackboard or a donkey in its death throes.


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no sophist wrote:
What about effort?
The desire to either evangelize or be evangelized?
The desire to produce a great work of art or to appreciate a great work of art?
No matter how simple or complex the music, there is always more than the music itself if you take the time/effort to study. Only persons can do this, that’s a revelation in itself.
No matter how simple or complex the revelation, there is always more to discover with study and effort.
Compare 4th epochal to 5th and then plan and compare your evangelizing.
Analogous to : you must not only be something, you must do something.
I’m still trying to find meaning and value in the bagpipe, all I get is pick up the sword and march. But it is moving even if it irritates the ears like nails on a blackboard or a donkey in its death throes.



Hahhahahahhaha....my non-Gaelic friend! What a wonderful and inspiring instrument is the bagpipe, especially by the dozen!!! The mere note touches every gene with a resonance that lifts the head and the heart.


But only in the hands of someone with skill...as you say! Music responds to talent for sure, but also to skills honed by study and practice. And art, like faith itself, is the doing of a something - it is an expression and like all such expressions, experience adds depth and breadth and qualities no novice might achieve, no matter their talent.


You say "only persons can do this"....indeed so....personality is so powerful an instrument of experience and the expression of our personal experience....especially so our relationship experiences.


Well said..... :wink:

Bradly 8)


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no sophist wrote:
What about effort?
The desire to either evangelize or be evangelized?
The desire to produce a great work of art or to appreciate a great work of art?


As a musician I suppose you really don't know if that donkey in its death throes won't register even some kind of super-mortal notion or compassion in the mind of some listener :)

Isn't effort an exhibition of faith? You're effectively telling the universe "I can make a difference and I'll do everything in my power to do so". And we have been told the universe is not ambivalent to the sincere desires of its citizens to act in a faithful manner. Effort is the act of translating potentials into actuals. That is the domain of The Supreme Being. But then we apparently need to learn what the Apostles learned through bitter disappointment - that we may not expect any particular outcome of our efforts. We need to let go of any undue attachment to the results. "The act is yours, the consequence is God's".


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Riktare wrote:
no sophist wrote:
What about effort?
The desire to either evangelize or be evangelized?
The desire to produce a great work of art or to appreciate a great work of art?


As a musician I suppose you really don't know if that donkey in its death throes won't register even some kind of super-mortal notion or compassion in the mind of some listener :)

Isn't effort an exhibition of faith? You're effectively telling the universe "I can make a difference and I'll do everything in my power to do so". And we have been told the universe is not ambivalent to the sincere desires of its citizens to act in a faithful manner. Effort is the act of translating potentials into actuals. That is the domain of The Supreme Being. But then we apparently need to learn what the Apostles learned through bitter disappointment - that we may not expect any particular outcome of our efforts. We need to let go of any undue attachment to the results. "The act is yours, the consequence is God's".


Effort more important than the work of art.
Our thoughts and intentions that get the attention of the dirties.
Sincerity.
Hammer/anvil.
Always someone out there listening/looking for real value and meaning.
Growth is not easy.

Here’s a musician effort scenario: one pianist can play that Chopin so perfect and flawless it’s amazing but the artist may as well be a robot while another can play it equally as flawless and and perfect and give expression that makes it so recognizably more appealing, makes the effort more recognizable as a gift to the listener for lack of a better way to say it..


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Regarding effort and wanting to share the message:

I do make an effort to promote the message that the only truly important thing is to encourage others to search for spiritual answers. How they go about that is entirely a matter of personal guidance and choice. So I promote music that seems to convey that ideal, or art that inspires one to reject rank materialism or touches the soul in some way, scientists, thinkers, writers, filmmakers, and teachers that challenge others to think outside the system box etc.

And in personal contact and conversation where someone indicates they are looking for more than just physical gratification out of life, I share what i have learned until I sense that the person has heard enough. I have learned not to push, and not to preach or be dogmatic, and by far the best example of that is Jesus as portrayed in the Urantia Book.

But not everyone feels that urge to share a message, at least not everyone feels it at the same time, nor should they be required to. You cannot legislate righteousness.

I personally believe it is my "calling" or my responsibility to sow seed, so that's what I do. Whether I am "successful" or not I cannot tell, but it is not for me to try to convince someone, I only go as far as encouraging individuals to pray and ask to somehow be shown the truth and what to do about it.


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I sometimes read my UB in public places. Next time I see a street preacher, I'll find a spot nearby and read out loud the UB!


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