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brooklyn_born wrote:
maryjo606 wrote:
the fact is that all personalities have always had, and will always have, freewill.


I agree.


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There's no guarantees of anything, given that reality.


Agreed.


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Nevertheless, we also know that when Jesus was here, he effectively ended the rebellion on Urantia. That is the GOOD news! And this, regarding future rebel activity here

134:8.9 And when Jesus came down from his sojourn on Mount Hermon, the Lucifer rebellion in Satania and the Caligastia secession on Urantia were virtually settled. Jesus had paid the last price required of him to attain the sovereignty of his universe, which in itself regulates the status of all rebels and determines that all such future upheavals (if they ever occur) may be dealt with summarily and effectively.


Let's continue to unpack this revelation. Lucifer's rebellion was an open rebellion that had the potential to infect an entire system. It is this open rebellion, to my understanding, that has ended. And yes! That is gospel!

The rebellion has been closed to the rest of the system, except Urantia. It remains open on our planet; Agents of rebellion continue to push for it in our world, at least up to 1900. I venture to say they continue to do so in our day based on statements made by the revelators.

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BTW, thanks for such a good discussion...


Thanks!!!!

Question: Michael's supremacy, including the completion of his seventh bestowal, has it been fully established or is it still in the works? Here is a revelation that got me thinking on the issue.

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128:7.6 (1417.5) Never lose sight of the fact that the prime mission of Jesus in his seventh bestowal was the acquirement of creature experience, the achievement of the sovereignty of Nebadon. And in the gathering of this very experience he made the supreme revelation of the Paradise Father to Urantia and to his entire local universe. Incidental to these purposes he also undertook to untangle the complicated affairs of this planet as they were related to the Lucifer rebellion.


Many inaccuracies here....anyone? The rebellion was system wide. Urantia is not the only affected world today...it's 30 something worlds and every world in the system suffers repercussions. Sigh....

But do declare away .... rather than read, post text, or ask questions.

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Riktare wrote:
I don't believe Caligastia and Daligastia are considered arch-rebels by the local and super universe authorities even if one revelator describes Caligastia as such. Otherwise they would have been interned also.


Solid position. I did not consider that. I will put more thought into this and get back to you.


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From what we are told they are not the authors of the rebellion, merely supporters.


It is interesting you raise this up because there is a distinction made between Lucifer defiance of Michael's authority and Cali-gastia's. It states he betrayed Michael. Perhaps that is the reason he has not been interned, because his does not rise to the level of rebellion, at least not yet? I am going to research this more.

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They also had one-time jurisdiction over only this planet. Furthermore, there may exist the real possibility that either or both will express remorse or make some form of confession. Whether either would accept mercy is of course a very large uncertainty, but an intriguing one.


Interesting angle. I did not consider this possibility.

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Remember too, that our planet has been stripped of rebellious midwayers and angels (which would have been their eyes, ears and means of projecting physical power).


The spiritual circuits of Urantia have been served from the system because of the rebellion. For 1900 years celestial beings resident on Urantia were without access to the spiritual circuits of Satania. And I think it is safe to assume that that status has not changed. Is the faith of these celestials being tested during this period along with mortals? Is it possible that they could falter and fall prey to Cali- and Dali-gastia's nefarious designs?

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Riktare wrote:
Aren't there 1000 inhabited planets in a system?


I believe it's an approximate.

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pethuel wrote:
I believe it clearly states in the Papers that Jesus ended the Lucifer rebellion with His bestowal, and whatever purpose Cali-Dali have is definitely being permitted, just as the Lucifer rebellion was allowed to run its course.


I think it has ended officially on paper, but not in real time on the actual ground.


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BB, you know you are treading on thin ice when you insist on certain positions that ultimately appear to sow doubt, so it shouldn't surprise you when somebody loses their temper. As they say here in Brazil "If you go out in the rain you should expect to get wet" The two of you united could be a tremendous force for all, because we need to question some things and yet if we get off the foundation our building will crumble.


It does surprise me (actually it surprised me several years ago when I was fairly new to these UB online communities and certain members eventually played their hands and revealed their true nature to me.) Only a religious zealot or extremist would lose their temper to such a degree as witnessed on this board when confronted with an idea antithesis to their belief.

How can someone sow doubt in a public forum that accepts all students of TUB? We do not share one understanding. Urantia readers have yet to form a Church. If and when that happens, then I must decide whether or not I am willing to submit my belief to the doctrine of that Church.

This Urantia bulletin board has a TOS all participants are expected to abide by. For the most part, over the years, I have followed the rules. I may have strayed a few times, but nothing egregious. The moderators monitor the site (as you have witnessed since you joined) and intervene when things get out of control.

I tried to avoid this, but I have made the decision to place a certain personality on ignore, indefinitely, unfortunately. I no longer can see his posts (but I cannot spare others from seeing his replies to me. Sorry but that is out of my control. At least if this personality knows I cannot see his posts, he may tone down the personal attacks. Time will tell.) I actually tried to give it a second chance (actually MULTIPLE CHANCES) but the reality is certain people are set in their way. So the best solution at this junction is to avoid conflict by using the ignore feature supplied by the site.


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I sincerely hope that you two will learn not to bicker as well, because all can benefit from your combined knowledge, but no one benefits from your clashes.


I understand you but sometimes it is best clashing personalities part ways. As for the bickering, I stay away from it. I don't impose by force my belief on anyone. I share what I know, what I believe, what I speculate with the world. People are free to reject it, critique it or assimilate it into their being.

I appreciate your input, pethuel. Peace.

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fanofVan wrote:
pethuel wrote:
I believe it clearly states in the Papers that Jesus ended the Lucifer rebellion with His bestowal, and whatever purpose Cali-Dali have is definitely being permitted, just as the Lucifer rebellion was allowed to run its course.

If I may add this thought regarding these discussions, and if I name names it is just for the sake of simplicity. Bradly, it seems to me that the problem isn't what you say, it is the way you say it that is offensive. Your positions are faithful to the Urantia Book and as such are very enlightening and illuminating but the tone you use is contradictory to the wisdom you share.

BB, you know you are treading on thin ice when you insist on certain positions that ultimately appear to sow doubt, so it shouldn't surprise you when somebody loses their temper. As they say here in Brazil "If you go out in the rain you should expect to get wet".

The two of you united could be a tremendous force for all, because we need to question some things and yet if we get off the foundation our building will crumble.

When I was growing up in the 50s and my brother and I would argue incessantly our father would knock our heads together, and if we "saw stars" it was the beginning of seeing the light of how annoying we were and how inconsiderate we were of those around us. Of course corporal punishment like that is frowned upon today but my brother and I soon learned not to bicker.

I sincerely hope that you two will learn not to bicker as well, because all can benefit from your combined knowledge, but no one benefits from your clashes.


I appreciate the compliments and the rebuke pethuel. Happy trails. 8)


Hardly a rebuke Bradly, more like a plea, but I understand where you are coming from. I get upset with apparent challenges to the authority of the Papers too, my only request was for you to refrain from arguing when a simple quote from the UB will do the job. But 'nuff said, I very much appreciate your comments and attempts to set things straight, honest.
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pethuel wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
pethuel wrote:
I believe it clearly states in the Papers that Jesus ended the Lucifer rebellion with His bestowal, and whatever purpose Cali-Dali have is definitely being permitted, just as the Lucifer rebellion was allowed to run its course.

If I may add this thought regarding these discussions, and if I name names it is just for the sake of simplicity. Bradly, it seems to me that the problem isn't what you say, it is the way you say it that is offensive. Your positions are faithful to the Urantia Book and as such are very enlightening and illuminating but the tone you use is contradictory to the wisdom you share.

BB, you know you are treading on thin ice when you insist on certain positions that ultimately appear to sow doubt, so it shouldn't surprise you when somebody loses their temper. As they say here in Brazil "If you go out in the rain you should expect to get wet".

The two of you united could be a tremendous force for all, because we need to question some things and yet if we get off the foundation our building will crumble.

When I was growing up in the 50s and my brother and I would argue incessantly our father would knock our heads together, and if we "saw stars" it was the beginning of seeing the light of how annoying we were and how inconsiderate we were of those around us. Of course corporal punishment like that is frowned upon today but my brother and I soon learned not to bicker.

I sincerely hope that you two will learn not to bicker as well, because all can benefit from your combined knowledge, but no one benefits from your clashes.


I appreciate the compliments and the rebuke pethuel. Happy trails. 8)


Hardly a rebuke Bradly, more like a plea, but I understand where you are coming from. I get upset with apparent challenges to the authority of the Papers too, my only request was for you to refrain from arguing when a simple quote from the UB will do the job. But 'nuff said, I very much appreciate your comments and attempts to set things straight, honest.


I was not at all insulted and I chose the word rebuke because there are very friendly and appropriate rebukes which I felt/feel like yours was/is. No worries.

Yes...when I see a so-called student claim reincarnation, pre-existence, numerology, and rebels roaming the system....well, I did offer text but to no avail, plus some commentary too.. You think I should leave it at text only? Perhaps so. Glad you are here.

Perhaps I am lashing out. Perhaps I am displeased with the apparently now-anything-goes changes here where fantasy, fables, falsehoods, and beliefs appear more important now than the actual study of the actual contents of the UB does. Something to consider.

Maybe I am just full of B.S. Maybe I always have been. Hahaha. Maybe. No need for me to be angry at BB...his opinions are nothing new here....not to many of us anyway....and his opinions don't make me mad so much as the defense and protection of his false claims and declarations by others do...others who should quickly recognize such falsehoods and correct or challenge them but instead not only give them a pass but defend such falsehood.

Suddenly up is down and in is out wrong is good and interesting. I don't feel like I have changed. But something has changed for sure. Hmmmmm.....maybe it is me after all.

Thanks pethuel....I shall address myself and face my mischief. One must first master one's tongue to master one's self. Much for this tadpole's attention.

:? :idea: :-#


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:14 am +0000, edited 8 times in total.

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"Get you behind me Satan" made into a moment of finality, from the perspective of the midwayers? What is the significance of this demand?

In my opinion it implies two factuals: (1) that Satan was a servant. (2) that Satan could no longer serve Lucifer in his plans, but would be accountable for his own deeds.

I think the possibility that Satan can actually realise that Lucifer, his previous ruler in the sense of administration, was no longer making the orders, that Jesus had disestablished the hierarchy in his system Satania. It made for an opportunity: Satan as the ambassador of Satania could realign himself with the order and instruction of Michael. And that as an ambassador, this opportunity would stand symbolically for every human capable of undergoing redemption and reform.

When you opine as the actual status of Lucifer, recognise that there is a reason that the Authors do not explicitly enumerate the fates of all ill-reformed individual. Thus, such ex-system administrators are objectified and reflect the self-judgment of each individual. If you are more Godlike, you are able to consider this possible path to redemption for such beings, the way of showing mercy. Jesus in a real aspect is the father of Satan; even though he offered Satan unto the judgment of the Ancients of Days, I believe that the Ancients of Days will apply justice in Nebadon according to the Supreme Order of Michael, therefore conditioned as in the love of a father for his children.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
In my opinion it implies two factuals: (1) that Satan was a servant. (2) that Satan could no longer serve Lucifer in his plans, but would be accountable for his own deeds.


That's an interesting subtlety. After the Creator Son's statement one of the arch-rebels could no longer take any sort of legal or moral refuge in following his commander. It appears that prior to becoming a Master Son, Michael allowed "the battle" to continue between his own sons, Gabriel and Lucifer, without entering the battle himself. That's probably a wise thing for a father to do up until the motives and repercussions are fully exposed. Michael's seeming initial impartiality probably comes both from his personality and from vision and wisdom.
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pethuel wrote:
believe it clearly states in the Papers that Jesus ended the Lucifer rebellion with His bestowal, and whatever purpose Cali-Dali have is definitely being permitted, just as the Lucifer rebellion was allowed to run its course.

If I may add this thought regarding these discussions, and if I name names it is just for the sake of simplicity. Bradly, it seems to me that the problem isn't what you say, it is the way you say it that is offensive. Your positions are faithful to the Urantia Book and as such are very enlightening and illuminating but the tone you use is contradictory to the wisdom you share.

BB, you know you are treading on thin ice when you insist on certain positions that ultimately appear to sow doubt, so it shouldn't surprise you when somebody loses their temper. As they say here in Brazil "If you go out in the rain you should expect to get wet".

The two of you united could be a tremendous force for all, because we need to question some things and yet if we get off the foundation our building will crumble.

When I was growing up in the 50s and my brother and I would argue incessantly our father would knock our heads together, and if we "saw stars" it was the beginning of seeing the light of how annoying we were and how inconsiderate we were of those around us. Of course corporal punishment like that is frowned upon today but my brother and I soon learned not to bicker.

I sincerely hope that you two will learn not to bicker as well, because all can benefit from your combined knowledge, but no one benefits from your clashes.


And then:

Hardly a rebuke Bradly, more like a plea, but I understand where you are coming from. I get upset with apparent challenges to the authority of the Papers too, my only request was for you to refrain from arguing when a simple quote from the UB will do the job. But 'nuff said, I very much appreciate your comments and attempts to set things straight, honest.

And I reply above: I was not at all insulted and I chose the word rebuke because there are very friendly and appropriate rebukes which I felt/feel like yours was/is. No worries.

Yes...when I see a so-called student claim reincarnation, pre-existence, numerology, and rebels roaming the system....well, I did offer text but to no avail, plus some commentary too.. You think I should leave it at text only? Perhaps so. Glad you are here.

Perhaps I am lashing out. Perhaps I am displeased with the apparently now-anything-goes changes here where fantasy, fables, falsehoods, and beliefs appear more important now than the actual study of the actual contents of the UB does. Something to consider.

Maybe I am just full of B.S. Maybe I always have been. Hahaha. Maybe. No need for me to be angry at BB...his opinions are nothing new here....not to many of us anyway....and his opinions don't make me mad so much as the defense and protection of his false claims and declarations by others do...others who should quickly recognize such falsehoods and correct or challenge them but instead not only give them a pass but defend such falsehood.

Suddenly up is down and in is out wrong is good and interesting. I don't feel like I have changed. But something has changed for sure. Hmmmmm.....maybe it is me after all.

Thanks pethuel....I shall address myself and face my mischief. One must first master one's tongue to master one's self. Much for this tadpole's attention.

:? :idea: :-#

Upon further reflection I will try the "third-day rule" for a season. I will not reply to that which I believe contradicts the TruthBook untill 2 nights have passed to give others ample time to compliment, corroborate, or correct, challenge, or at least question the posted falsehood/contradiction. Think of it as a learning game...Can You Spot The Contradiction/Conflict?!

If this is a study group of the Revelation, imagine yourself seated in a circle of fellow readers and students, some very new to the text among us, and one, and not a new reader at all, declares the Revelation includes and supports numerology... or reincarnation... or rebels are roaming the system... or arch rebels still recruit "gullible" celestials as rebellion continues and in our very midst... or the Revelation is filled with inaccuracies and false information and is unreliable... or it is metaphorical and should not be taken literally... and yet no one at the study group of the book who believes the book, hosted by those who also believe in the book gives objection ...and the host says... "well done, how interesting".

Frankly, it sets my hair on fire! And this is my perception around this study group for months now...with a few notable exceptions. Suddenly, it seems, it is more important that everyone be polite and silent and supportive as if none of these falsehoods were spoken, or worse...as if they were true. Puzzling...and disappointing.

But...it's my problem...? Okay...so be it. Perhaps the third day rule will work. We shall see. More time to research, pray, and construct a text based and calmer response. Breath Bradly....breath...count to ten...smile...and then...go!


8)
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I am no legal expert but in an indictment all defendants (joint defendants) are listed on the same document. It appears Cali- and Dali-gastia are not listed with Lucifer since the court case section is presented by the revelator as Gabriel vs. Lucifer (53:9.1 (610.6)). It could be argued the lesser archrebels are handled in a separate filing/case.

What you presented earlier has legs, I think, and shifted my understanding of these two deposed planetary princes. It could very well be no celestial court case exists against them, yet, explaining their free rein to roam the system and prosecute their nefarious designs.

Riktare wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
In my opinion it implies two factuals: (1) that Satan was a servant. (2) that Satan could no longer serve Lucifer in his plans, but would be accountable for his own deeds.


That's an interesting subtlety. After the Creator Son's statement one of the arch-rebels could no longer take any sort of legal or moral refuge in following his commander. It appears that prior to becoming a Master Son, Michael allowed "the battle" to continue between his own sons, Gabriel and Lucifer, without entering the battle himself. That's probably a wise thing for a father to do up until the motives and repercussions are fully exposed. Michael's seeming initial impartiality probably comes both from his personality and from vision and wisdom.

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We have only our moral understandings with which to judge. The reason these topics are so interesting are because human beings often seek to identify outside causation for self-generated or internal plights. What are they doing to their bodies by attempting to heap the blame of catastrophe, the crises that happen when mankind does not properly cohabitate with nature.

You should not misunderstand that every being was given a choice during the seven year period which was the widespread rebellion of Satania, 500,000 years ago. The sensitive mind of the Infinite Spirit can understand when perspectival outcomes are made within finality even before actions transpire in the universe. This is when such entities as Daligastia entered into the confusing, disfiguring quest to claim authority and to trick mankind. If you observe that such an individual's own nature cannot function in the universe, why would you hold out hope. I am only saying that there is no such loyalty to Lucifer, but to abandon one's inner loyalty to God poses risks of ultimate ramification. But if the opportunity to restore the relationship between one individual and whose parent, this we cannot judge due to its personal nature. How do you distinguish between serving one's master, and the wantonness tomfoolery which comes from simple pandemonium "the goal of disruption".

Even with the major realisations, there is always a question if there is such change in nature, if one could succeed in the quest of actual reform. If one is required to give up the minute individualistic agenda, in order to receive the enlightenment of the spirit of truth, we would say that the cost is not so much. But that it is also difficult for such individual to make the effort and forego the personal goals. If we can see this issue not in terms of what one deserves, but of what one may contribute.

You will find that there are no major setbacks to human progress, and that if our world suffers from destruction, it is because of a failure of adaptation in society, the wasteful interests of the public, the mismanagement of globally shared resources.

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