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Revelators tell us the unspiritual personality is "unreal" and eventually experiences "extinction." Is this relative extinction or actual extinction? The papers, as far as I am concerned, do not speak of the extinction of all parts that make up the sum total of who we are. Extinction is, from their point of view, strictly a personality issue or sum total of who we are.

We are a sum total and strive to maintain it. But we are also parts that make up the sum total of who we are. The fact is, there are different aspects to who we are, and they can function in a mutually exclusive way; we are not uniformly constituted, nor ever could we have been built up as such as it does not match up with the original pattern of deity; however, all aspects of who we are can unify or coordinate, and personality serves this purpose.

We are material, mind, Thought Adjuster (higher self); each is superimposed upon the other; each is able to express itself without the assistance of the other. Yet, personality coordinates them.

What happens to mind when personality fails to initiate fusion between it and Thought Adjuster? We are told personality is terminated. But that does not mean mind ceases to exist?

Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'

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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:41 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Revelators tell us the unspiritual personality is "unreal" and eventually experiences "extinction." Is this relative extinction or actual extinction? The papers, as far as I am concerned, do not speak of the extinction of all parts that make up the sum total of who we are. Extinction is, from their point of view, strictly a personality issue or sum total of who we are.

We are a sum total and strive to maintain it. But we are also parts that make up the sum total of who we are. The fact is, there are different aspects to who we are, and they can function in a mutually exclusive way; we are not uniformly constituted, nor ever could we have been built up as such as it does not match up with the original pattern of deity; however, all aspects of who we are can unify or coordinate, and personality serves this purpose.

We are material, mind, Thought Adjuster (higher self); each is superimposed upon the other; each is able to express itself without the assistance of the other. Yet, personality coordinates them.

What happens to mind when personality fails to initiate fusion between it and Thought Adjuster? We are told personality is terminated. But that does not mean mind ceases to exist?

Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'


Mind is not of the material plane and is not "remanded to the material plane". There is no such thing as reincarnation related to any mortal or celestial...by any definition...according to the UB. The "common" definition of reincarnation is:

Wikipedia

Reincarnation is the philosophical or religious concept that an aspect of a living being starts a new life in a different physical body or form after each biological death. It is also called rebirth or transmigration, and is a part of the Saṃsāra doctrine of cyclic existence.[1][2] It is a central tenet of all major Indian religions, namely Jainism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Sikhism.[2][3][4] The idea of reincarnation is found in many ancient cultures,[5] and a belief in rebirth/metempsychosis was held by Greek historic figures, such as Pythagoras, Socrates, and Plato.[6] It is also a common belief of various ancient and modern religions such as Spiritism, Theosophy, and Eckankar, and as an esoteric belief in many streams of Orthodox Judaism. It is found as well in many tribal societies around the world, in places such as Australia, East Asia, Siberia, and South America.[7]


46:7.5 [Part II]
Spornagia are the only creatures in all the universe of Nebadon who experience this or any other sort of reincarnation. They are only reactive to the first five of the adjutant mind-spirits; they are not responsive to the spirits of worship and wisdom. But the five-adjutant mind equivalates to a totality or sixth reality level, and it is this factor which persists as an experiential identity.

94:2.3 [Part III]
The undue concentration on self led certainly to a fear of the nonevolutionary perpetuation of self in an endless round of successive incarnations as man, beast, or weeds. And of all the contaminating beliefs which could have become fastened upon what may have been an emerging monotheism, none was so stultifying as this belief in transmigration — the doctrine of the reincarnation of souls — which came from the Dravidian Deccan. This belief in the weary and monotonous round of repeated transmigrations robbed struggling mortals of their long-cherished hope of finding that deliverance and spiritual advancement in death which had been a part of the earlier Vedic faith.

164:3.4 [Part IV]
There was, throughout all these regions, a lingering belief in reincarnation. The older Jewish teachers, together with Plato, Philo, and many of the Essenes, tolerated the theory that men may reap in one incarnation what they have sown in a previous existence; thus in one life they were believed to be expiating the sins committed in preceding lives. The Master found it difficult to make men believe that their souls had not had previous existences.

The four gravity circuits are: material, mind, spirit, and personality. Each has its own source and influence upon and in conjunction with the others.

The UB does not say that "unspiritual personality is unreal"....but it does say that the mind and its embrace of the spirit can eternalize the personality of the being who becomes so spiritized. This relates to the dual nature of mortals and the transfer of the seat of our identity....or not. The "extinction" of personality, mind, body, and soul which results from the persistent embrace of unreality or evil, sin, and iniquity is of the individual being's existence. Everything experienced by the individual of survival quality related to truth, beauty, and goodness survives...as does mind, matter, spirit, and personality "continue on" - just not that collection or "sum total" of those in that being.

1:3.7 [Part I]
In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence.


How does material/matter/energy "express itself" without mind or spirit?

As to the extinction of the parts of us...an interesting topic. As is the purpose and function of personality.


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unspiritual or unspirituality is unreal from the perspective of spiritual beings.


Quote:
2:6.8 (41.6) ...Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) ...


Quote:
44:0.15 (498.6) ... To us the material world is the more unreal. The higher forms of spirits freely pass through ordinary matter...To material beings the spirit world is more or less unreal; to spirit beings the material world is almost entirely unreal...

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The issue of extinction in this case is tied to individual soul survivability, not to any form of group extinction discussed in the natural sciences. It means extinction versus survival of the individual human soul. So if you take this theory without negation "personality is imperative for the condition of eternal survival of the human soul." It may make more sense.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The issue of extinction in this case is tied to individual soul survivability, not to any form of group extinction discussed in the natural sciences. It means extinction versus survival of the individual human soul. So if you take this theory without negation "personality is imperative for the condition of eternal survival of the human soul." It may make more sense.



Our personality is defined by the sum total of our individual parts, which is expressed as the mortal corpus. Personality extinction is likened onto the extinction of the human corpus. Consider the following revelation, SEla_Kelly:


Quote:
42:12.10 (483.10) Even spirit beings have form, and these spirit forms (patterns) are real... [P]ersonality presences in every sense analogous to Urantia mortal bodies.


I believe, based on the above, personality is the form that plays host to the mind.

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The extinction of the collective consciousness within a single individual?

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I see how you are indicating a collectivity within the cohesiveness of the body. Presence is more existential than a physical body, and perhaps more unified in general.

However, what operates the human body is the mind of the human being, and what allows presence to cohere around the spirit is personality. Mind and personality, in my opinon, really never actually exist. (Since these come from the core of reality, they are purely existential). But yet I think, that presence is also like the shadow of a personality. It is what makes personality real to us. Just as it is our bodies that make us real unto others, but who we (each) actually are is the mind of the soul within the body.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The extinction of the collective consciousness within a single individual?


Hmmm... I think I know what you want to say but I am not 100 percent sure of it. So I want to agree with you but with caution. This is what I understand. If personality fails to resurrect or is terminated, we lose "collective consciousness" yet retain an identity. I think it should be noted personality and identity are qualitatively different.

Our identity is the Thought Adjuster, our higher self or highest degree of mind. And because we fail to raise a personality, our TA, after returning to Divinington, is remanded to the material plane, again to indwell a human mind; this is reincarnation, as far as I am concerned.

While it is possible to lose personality, I do not believe it is possible to lose identity.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
The extinction of the collective consciousness within a single individual?


Hmmm... I think I know what you want to say but I am not 100 percent sure of it. So I want to agree with you but with caution. This is what I understand. If personality fails to resurrect or is terminated, we lose "collective consciousness" yet retain an identity. I think it should be noted personality and identity are qualitatively different.

Our identity is the Thought Adjuster, our higher self or highest degree of mind. And because we fail to raise a personality, our TA, after returning to Divinington, is remanded to the material plane, again to indwell a human mind; this is reincarnation, as far as I am concerned.

While it is possible to lose personality, I do not believe it is possible to lose identity.



You may not redefine reincarnation. Silly and irresponsible. Write your own dictionary for pete's sake!

Individual personality has no "collective consciousness"...text please! If personality or self fails to resurrect or is terminated....we do not retain that identity or any identity!! Our identity is not our TA or not until fusion in which case identity is eternal! The TA is not mind either...or the source of mind. The TA does contact the person's highest state of mind/consciousness but the TA has their own mind as does the mortal have their own mind.

How is identity maintained without personality pray tell? Who are you without personality? And where?


How can so many contradictions to the UB be compiled in one short post?


You got one thing right: "I think it should be noted personality and identity are qualitatively different."

112:0.7 (1225.7) 5. Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.

I look forward to the study of "identity" and the posting of actual teachings and text to add some facts to the discussion!

:wink:


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The Adjuster is you at the higher self state of being:

Quote:
103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit)


The Adjuster is minded.

Quote:
110:2.5 (1205.3) You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster’s mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one...


Adjuster never loses identity. It remains in static state.

Quote:
112:3.5 (1230.3) After death the material body returns to the elemental world from which it was derived, but two nonmaterial factors of surviving personality persist: ... static formulas of identity...


If resurrection is not attained, TA takes the identity with it to Divinington. Identity is NEVER lost. It remains static until such a time that it becomes kinetic.

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Yes to call the lifetimes experienced by a personal Thought Adjuster. You say Thought Adjuster is the being who declares and identifies using this human lifetime experience. But then again, if you the Thought Adjuster cycles through the experience of many human lifetimes, what is the fact of incarnation for you? See, because a claim like this that you have, although socially acceptible, is not necessarily valid. Because for this to be true, we would not regard the whole human experience that you have, but the series of soul-searching(striving) experiences wherein the Thought Adjuster acquires skill: the skill of inleading the mind of human individual, the skill of inleading the mind of sentient material animal.

It would require mercy and perfect discernment for us to identify every moment of functional performance, where your claim, or the expression of the Thought Adjuster allows the individual human beings to have new cosmic experiences.

All I am saying, is that even though you call this experiencing of material sentience, that is said to be involved in the Adjuster-experience, as reincarnation, the incarnations or cycles of human lifetimes. But I will say this is still a human perspective: it does not belong necessarily to the Adjuster that is within you, that you humanly identify with or as.

But there is no future lifetime in the Adjuster experience even if there have been passed human lifetime experiences. Because we must reckon with eternity, and the fact that the human individual is the one who expresses the will of the Supreme Being from this relationship the Adjuster within the human tabernacle.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:

But there is no future lifetime in the Adjuster experience even if there have been passed human lifetime experiences. Because we must reckon with eternity, and the fact that the human individual is the one who expresses the will of the Supreme Being from this relationship the Adjuster within the human tabernacle.



Personalized adjusters experience past present and future conjointly at the eternal level. They are in fact transcendental in nature. Consider the following revelation:


Quote:
109:7.4 (1201.5) They are the exclusive beings of the universes who embrace within their being all the known relationships of personality; they are omnipersonal—they are before personality, they are personality, and they are after personality. They minister the personality of the Universal Father as in the eternal past, the eternal present, and the eternal future.

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Would someone please define "collective consciousness".

BB says: "The Adjuster is you at the higher self state of being":

Quote:
103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit)


Me here: The Adjuster is not you...or me and the quote does not say that. Read Paper 110 - there is sovereignty of personality and mind and free will prior to fusion which is not with material "me" but with my soul - the cocreation of me and the TA or the two of us working to become one. Only after fusion are we united into one composite and new order of being.

110:2.6 (1205.4) To the extent that this identity is realized, you are mentally approaching the morontia order of existence. Morontia mind is a term signifying the substance and sum total of the co-operating minds of diversely material and spiritual natures. Morontia intellect, therefore, connotes a dual mind in the local universe dominated by one will. And with mortals this is a will, human in origin, which is becoming divine through man’s identification of the human mind with the mindedness of God.

110:7.4 (1212.5) Subsequent to mortal fusion the Adjusters share your destiny and experience; they are you. After the fusion of the immortal morontia soul and the associated Adjuster, all of the experience and all of the values of the one eventually become the possession of the other, so that the two are actually one entity. In a certain sense, this new being is of the eternal past as well as for the eternal future. All that was once human in the surviving soul and all that is experientially divine in the Adjuster now become the actual possession of the new and ever-ascending universe personality. But on each universe level the Adjuster can endow the new creature only with those attributes which are meaningful and of value on that level. An absolute oneness with the divine Monitor, a complete exhaustion of the endowment of an Adjuster, can only be achieved in eternity subsequent to the final attainment of the Universal Father, the Father of spirits, ever the source of these divine gifts.

110:7.5 (1212.6) When the evolving soul and the divine Adjuster are finally and eternally fused, each gains all of the experiencible qualities of the other. This co-ordinate personality possesses all of the experiential memory of survival once held by the ancestral mortal mind and then resident in the morontia soul, and in addition thereto this potential finaliter embraces all the experiential memory of the Adjuster throughout the mortal indwellings of all time. But it will require an eternity of the future for an Adjuster ever completely to endow the personality partnership with the meanings and values which the divine Monitor carries forward from the eternity of the past.

110:7.6 (1213.1) But with the vast majority of Urantians the Adjuster must patiently await the arrival of death deliverance; must await the liberation of the emerging soul from the well-nigh complete domination of the energy patterns and chemical forces inherent in your material order of existence. The chief difficulty you experience in contacting with your Adjusters consists in this very inherent material nature. So few mortals are real thinkers; you do not spiritually develop and discipline your minds to the point of favorable liaison with the divine Adjusters. The ear of the human mind is almost deaf to the spiritual pleas which the Adjuster translates from the manifold messages of the universal broadcasts of love proceeding from the Father of mercies. The Adjuster finds it almost impossible to register these inspiring spirit leadings in an animal mind so completely dominated by the chemical and electrical forces inherent in your physical natures.

BB says: "Adjuster never loses identity. It remains in static state. If resurrection is not attained, TA takes the identity with it to Divinington. Identity is NEVER lost. It remains static until such a time that it becomes kinetic."

Quote:
112:3.5 (1230.3) After death the material body returns to the elemental world from which it was derived, but two nonmaterial factors of surviving personality persist: ... static formulas of identity...


Me here: That's not what the text says...at all. Total misquote and misrepresentation. The TA has possession of the "mortal's identity" awaiting its reunification. Posting snippits is dangerous and disingenuous when used to support a false claim. Read the whole quote (and the whole Paper!):

112:3.5 (1230.3) After death the material body returns to the elemental world from which it was derived, but two nonmaterial factors of surviving personality persist: The pre-existent Thought Adjuster, with the memory transcription of the mortal career, proceeds to Divinington; and there also remains, in the custody of the destiny guardian, the immortal morontia soul of the deceased human. These phases and forms of soul, these once kinetic but now static formulas of identity, are essential to repersonalization on the morontia worlds; and it is the reunion of the Adjuster and the soul that reassembles the surviving personality, that reconsciousizes you at the time of the morontia awakening.

Still two identities and not one....not yet!!!


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The divine spirit is your higher self:

Quote:
103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit) ...


The above establishes the divine spirit as the higher self. What is the divine spirit?

Quote:
120:3.9 (1330.4) “8. In all other details of your oncoming bestowal we would commit you to the leading of the indwelling Adjuster, the teaching of the ever-present divine spirit of human guidance...


The divine spirit = Adjuster.

Thus one's higher self is the Adjuster.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
The divine spirit is your higher self:

Quote:
103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit) ...


The above establishes the divine spirit as the higher self. What is the divine spirit?

Quote:
120:3.9 (1330.4) “8. In all other details of your oncoming bestowal we would commit you to the leading of the indwelling Adjuster, the teaching of the ever-present divine spirit of human guidance...


The divine spirit = Adjuster.

Thus one's higher self is the Adjuster.



Again with the edited text...the snippet!! A way that can easily result in distortion. The entire quote (again):

103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit) are co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will of the integrating and supervising personality. The mind of evolutionary man is ever confronted with the intricate problem of refereeing the contest between the natural expansion of emotional impulses and the moral growth of unselfish urges predicated on spiritual insight—genuine religious reflection.

The "higher self" is simply a description of that internal influence of personal revelation, the yearn or the "urge" in the quote, the whisper, the assurance of the spirit nature of the mortal mind. We are dual natured. This does not mean the TA is our self. We are the captain and the TA is the pilot...if we, the individual self, mind, personality, and spirit cooperate. Our spiritual self is actually our soul.

The TA is not us or our "self"....until fusion. The TA is a mind endowment and spirit, the source of revelation...the higher minister to mortal mind. The Adjutants are the "lower self" and the TA's are the "higher self" but neither is truly the self but is rather the source of our self identity...as Paper 103 clearly illuminates.

103:6.12 (1137.2) Out of his incomplete grasp of science, his faint hold upon religion, and his abortive attempts at metaphysics, man has attempted to construct his formulations of philosophy. And modern man would indeed build a worthy and engaging philosophy of himself and his universe were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe.

Still another snippit..120:3.9!! The full text:

120:3.9 (1330.4) “8. In all other details of your oncoming bestowal we would commit you to the leading of the indwelling Adjuster, the teaching of the ever-present divine spirit of human guidance, and the reason-judgment of your expanding human mind of hereditary endowment. Such an association of creature and Creator attributes will enable you to live for us the perfect life of man on the planetary spheres, not necessarily perfect as regarded by any one man in any one generation on any one world (much less on Urantia) but wholly and supremely replete as evaluated on the more highly perfected and perfecting worlds of your far-flung universe.

Michael and his TA are also not the same self or entity or personality or identity...and neither are mortals and TAs until fusion (and Jesus and his TA never did fuse)!! And TAs do not reincarnate nor do any other celestials or mortals, TAs do not assume mortal identities, there is no identity without personality, mind is never remanded to the material plane, and all personality is real. Your claims are not substantiated by text.

Your attempted metaphysics will inherently fail and disappoint BB. Don't know what you are trying to confirm or prove to yourself but the UB teachings on self and our constituent parts and our dual natures and our relationship with the TA are clearly explained for us in the UB. And to answer the original question of the topic.....NO, we cannot exist without personality...it is the binding and choosing and growth seeking "self" and 'identity" that will eternally be uniquely recognizable as "me" and "you".


I look forward to further research and discovery of self, identity, personality, and our relationship to the Adjutants, Holy Spirit, Father Fragment, and the Son's Spirit of Truth...all whom conspire to inspire mortals to their potential eternal destiny!!

See Paper 112:1.18
[
8)

Some text related to "self":

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1

From Paper 5

5:1.3 [Part I]
Although the approach to the Paradise presence of the Father must await your attainment of the highest finite levels of spirit progression, you should rejoice in the recognition of the ever-present possibility of immediate communion with the bestowal spirit of the Father so intimately associated with your inner soul and your spiritualizing self.

5:1.12 [Part I]
The great God makes direct contact with mortal man and gives a part of his infinite and eternal and incomprehensible self to live and dwell within him. God has embarked upon the eternal adventure with man. If you yield to the leadings of the spiritual forces in you and around you, you cannot fail to attain the high destiny established by a loving God as the universe goal of his ascendant creatures from the evolutionary worlds of space.

5:3.8 [Part I]
The worship experience consists in the sublime attempt of the betrothed Adjuster to communicate to the divine Father the inexpressible longings and the unutterable aspirations of the human soul — the conjoint creation of the God-seeking mortal mind and the God-revealing immortal Adjuster. Worship is, therefore, the act of the material mind's assenting to the attempt of its spiritualizing self, under the guidance of the associated spirit, to communicate with God as a faith son of the Universal Father. The mortal mind consents to worship; the immortal soul craves and initiates worship; the divine Adjuster presence conducts such worship in behalf of the mortal mind and the evolving immortal soul. True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal — the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality.

5:6.6 [Part I]
Capacity for divine personality is inherent in the prepersonal Adjuster; capacity for human personality is potential in the cosmic-mind endowment of the human being. But the experiential personality of mortal man is not observable as an active and functional reality until after the material life vehicle of the mortal creature has been touched by the liberating divinity of the Universal Father, being thus launched upon the seas of experience as a self-conscious and a (relatively) self-determinative and self-creative personality. The material self is truly and unqualifiedly personal.

5:6.7 [Part I]
The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

5:6.8 [Part I]
Having thus provided for the growth of the immortal soul and having liberated man's inner self from the fetters of absolute dependence on antecedent causation, the Father stands aside. Now, man having thus been liberated from the fetters of causation response, at least as pertains to eternal destiny, and provision having been made for the growth of the immortal self, the soul, it remains for man himself to will the creation or to inhibit the creation of this surviving and eternal self which is his for the choosing. No other being, force, creator, or agency in all the wide universe of universes can interfere to any degree with the absolute sovereignty of the mortal free will, as it operates within the realms of choice, regarding the eternal destiny of the personality of the choosing mortal. As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute.

8)


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