Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:31 pm +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
Here's an opinion from Larry Watkins on the topics of reincarnation and why BB's skeptical posts/topics should be found in the Skeptic's Corner....not Q&A or Discussions:

"Hello All,

I'm sure everyone knows that this is a Urantia Book discussion forum -- we discuss our understanding of the teachings of TUB and how they apply to us. So obviously it's not a forum for discussing the merits of our own personal philosophies -- we've had members drop in and slap their philosphies across the various topics as if their personal opinions had some weight of logic or some manner of merrit associated with them... as if they were of equal value with those of epochal revelation.

We're each entitled to our opinions and we all have opinions about things we know next to nothing about. One of the beauties of studying the teachings of TUB is that they provide a foundation for forming informed opinions, so that what we think has some basis in solid reality. So, basically we don't care whether you believe in reincarnation, werewolves, zombies, ghosts, UFOs, fortune telling, good and bad luck, or psychic healing. What we do care about is how your opinions relate to or are justified or validated through the teachings of TUB.

For Jim -- yes, this topic has been discussed at length. You might do a search to learn more. Why people believe in reincarnation is frankly explained in the book -- you might also check the FAQ on Truthbook.com. You'll learn that TUB does state that mortal reincarnation is a figment, not a fact.

No one is compelled to take everything they read in TUB as absolute truth -- you are encouraged to mull over what it's presenting, to test its teachings against your own perceptions of truth. If you do conclude that the book is what it claims to be you might ask yourself, if I were alive during Jesus' time, how much of what Jesus said would I believe. Or, if I had lived with Melchizedek, how much of what Melchizedek said would I have accepted. Same with Adam and Eve, same with the Prince and his staff. Are your perceptions sharp enough to pick and choose from these previous epochal revelations of truth? But, if you don't believe that TUB lives up to its claim then it's much easier to dismiss what it says; even then we'll expect you here to back up your opinions with something more concrete than "it's just my opinion" since we really aren't particularly interested in just your opinions.

So Jim, I see your indecision as simply being unwilling to choose. If your choice is just to believe whatever feels good then it's no choice at all. If your choice is to conform your beliefs to what is reasonable, logical, justified by the conviction of truth then yes, you certainly can accept what's written at face value after you've tested it.

For TeachSon1 -- you're correct that astrology and reincarnation find favor in the majority of the population. What weight does that carry? Does the explanation in TUB for why people believe these fallicies and why they are mistaken ring true to you or not? Is following the wishful thinking crowd simply more comfortable? You say you deeply question the teachings of TUB but you've offered no examples. Questioning without a foundation for the question may be naive. If you're going to say you question some aspect of TUB, give an example of what TUB discloses that you question and back that up with why you question it -- saying there is much supporting evidence is not supporting evidence at all -- there really is no supporting evidence despite the wishes and desires; there's conjecture, there are interesting stories, there's nothing approaching the proof provided by TUB to refute these myths.

And TeachSon -- you cannot come to this UB discussion forum and say TUB lied; sorry, that's unacceptable. To those who accept TUB as the revelation it claims to be, your assertation is on a par with saying Jesus also lied about reincarnation and astrology. If you feel compelled to make dogmatic statements provide facts to substantiate them, not personal opinion, since this is, after all, a discussion forum about the teachings of TUB, not about the opinions of its members.

Are your beliefs based in rational thought or are they more the result of whimsy? It might be beneficial to take some time out and to take in a movie, the recently released Men Who Stare at Goats to be specific. It does a great job of exposing the unproductivity of wishful and fanciful thinking -- of exposing where unfounded speculation can lead, of chronicling why a reasonable approach to life in general is more valuable than refusing to face reality. Let's resist the urge to make a habit of staring at goats."

Best wishes,
Larry

"Sorry Jo -- there were two problems with this thread right from the beginning. The first is it was originally posted in Open Discussion and not in Skeptic's Corner -- Admin moved it here, where it would still have been met with reproach for its initial tone.

We're open to a degree of skepticism (critical thinking would be a better term since skepticism connotes an initial negative attitude) but we'll not condone "the Urantia Book lies" as a point of view for discussion and that required correcting.

Not only does the Truthbook website have a wealth of information covering many of the topics in The Urantia Book -- such as reincarnation... it's always a good place to begin to look into a topic -- but reincarnation has been discussed often and thoroughly here on the discussion board over the past years and tends to become a launching pad for psychic foolery. A post made 3 years ago can be just as relevant to a topic as one made today -- everyone is encouraged to use the search facility and to familiarize themselves with what has transpired here over the years. Inactive topics can be unlocked and reactivated if there's more to be added.

Neither is this discussion board open to promoting personal opinion that runs contrary to the teachings of TUB -- and that's been explained in my previous post above. What is the value of a board where everyone is free to promote their own opinions about things in general or a particular philosophy of life that has no basis in the revelation and to keep running over the same topics like a gerbil on a wheel? If it's already been said, already been thrashed about and there's nothing new to be added to the mix then it's time to move on to something more currently meaningful."

Larry



Although from November 2009 - Still mighty good points!!! Something for us all to remember and consider today. BB's posts belong in the Skeptic's Corner IMO...and not just my opinion either.


:wink:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 640
First post to thread amended (unable to revise the post since the edit feature is no longer available):


Original:

"Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'"

Amended:

"Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event has similar implication as what is called in Catholicism as reincarnation.

That should fix the problem.

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
What will "fix the problem" is to post skepticism in The Skeptic's Corner and to eliminate opinions and theories which contradict the UB as though anyone is here to study those rather than the UB and to remember the primary purpose of TruthBook - still.

Your amended statement is as false as your original one...and Catholics do not teach or believe in anything resembling reincarnation....still justifying a personal opinion that no one cares about....or should BB. Go start a blog or something.

:roll:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 640
If moderator deems this a skeptic post they have the authority to move it. Until then, it stays here.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
Do you have anything to substantiate your false claim of Catholics believing in reincarnation? Or is this just another irrelevant opinion and false claim of yours?

Nice example of what we're not here to do.

Thank you.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:13 am +0000
Posts: 849
Location: Denver CO
Hell All,

Again, we have here a potentially unfortunate situation developing here. The original post:

Quote:
Revelators tell us the unspiritual personality is "unreal" and eventually experiences "extinction." Is this relative extinction or actual extinction? The papers, as far as I am concerned, do not speak of the extinction of all parts that make up the sum total of who we are. Extinction is, from their point of view, strictly a personality issue or sum total of who we are.

We are a sum total and strive to maintain it. But we are also parts that make up the sum total of who we are. The fact is, there are different aspects to who we are, and they can function in a mutually exclusive way; we are not uniformly constituted, nor ever could we have been built up as such as it does not match up with the original pattern of deity; however, all aspects of who we are can unify or coordinate, and personality serves this purpose.

We are material, mind, Thought Adjuster (higher self); each is superimposed upon the other; each is able to express itself without the assistance of the other. Yet, personality coordinates them.

What happens to mind when personality fails to initiate fusion between it and Thought Adjuster? We are told personality is terminated. But that does not mean mind ceases to exist?

Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'

_________________


The term "reincarnation" was used here. Unfortunate, because reincarnation is not taught as a reality in The Urantia Book. However, later, the poster amended his wording. BTW, on that subject, I too, question whether Catholics teach reincarnation; my experience says they do not. You may be thinking of the Hindus or the Buddhists...if anyone DOES want to discuss that topic, the Skeptic's Corner, or Abner's corner is the appropriate place for that. But even then, it is not an appropriate topic, since it has no relation to the teachings of the UB.

Nevertheless, this thread is not one that should be moved just because that word was used; had the discussion taken that turn, action would have been taken. The gist of the original thread is in regards to what happens to mind when a personality fails at fusion. Please do not let yourselves be sidetracked into another shouting match. Those who prompt such responses are in error here; not the one who has initiated the thread. Please moderate your responses in courtesy and kindness, as you might if you were actually in a face-to-face discussion with a brother or sister.

And please - bringing our brother Larry back from the dead to moderate these discussions will not be tolerated, either. Larry was above all, my friend of many years; also a valuable ally and collaborator in all the work done here at TruthBook, and he is sorely missed. If I know him at all, I think I can safely say that this is the last thing he would wish to happen. He would probably make a joke of it, and make me laugh, but I don't find it amusing.

MaryJo


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 640
Thank you for addressing this issue, maryjo606.




maryjo606 wrote:
Hell All,

Again, we have here a potentially unfortunate situation developing here. The original post:

Quote:
Revelators tell us the unspiritual personality is "unreal" and eventually experiences "extinction." Is this relative extinction or actual extinction? The papers, as far as I am concerned, do not speak of the extinction of all parts that make up the sum total of who we are. Extinction is, from their point of view, strictly a personality issue or sum total of who we are.

We are a sum total and strive to maintain it. But we are also parts that make up the sum total of who we are. The fact is, there are different aspects to who we are, and they can function in a mutually exclusive way; we are not uniformly constituted, nor ever could we have been built up as such as it does not match up with the original pattern of deity; however, all aspects of who we are can unify or coordinate, and personality serves this purpose.

We are material, mind, Thought Adjuster (higher self); each is superimposed upon the other; each is able to express itself without the assistance of the other. Yet, personality coordinates them.

What happens to mind when personality fails to initiate fusion between it and Thought Adjuster? We are told personality is terminated. But that does not mean mind ceases to exist?

Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'

_________________


The term "reincarnation" was used here. Unfortunate, because reincarnation is not taught as a reality in The Urantia Book. However, later, the poster amended his wording. BTW, on that subject, I too, question whether Catholics teach reincarnation; my experience says they do not. You may be thinking of the Hindus or the Buddhists...if anyone DOES want to discuss that topic, the Skeptic's Corner, or Abner's corner is the appropriate place for that. But even then, it is not an appropriate topic, since it has no relation to the teachings of the UB.

Nevertheless, this thread is not one that should be moved just because that word was used; had the discussion taken that turn, action would have been taken. The gist of the original thread is in regards to what happens to mind when a personality fails at fusion. Please do not let yourselves be sidetracked into another shouting match. Those who prompt such responses are in error here; not the one who has initiated the thread. Please moderate your responses in courtesy and kindness, as you might if you were actually in a face-to-face discussion with a brother or sister.

And please - bringing our brother Larry back from the dead to moderate these discussions will not be tolerated, either. Larry was above all, my friend of many years; also a valuable ally and collaborator in all the work done here at TruthBook, and he is sorely missed. If I know him at all, I think I can safely say that this is the last thing he would wish to happen. He would probably make a joke of it, and make me laugh, but I don't find it amusing.

MaryJo

_________________
BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
maryjo606 wrote:
Hell All,

Again, we have here a potentially unfortunate situation developing here. The original post:

Quote:
Revelators tell us the unspiritual personality is "unreal" and eventually experiences "extinction." Is this relative extinction or actual extinction? The papers, as far as I am concerned, do not speak of the extinction of all parts that make up the sum total of who we are. Extinction is, from their point of view, strictly a personality issue or sum total of who we are.

We are a sum total and strive to maintain it. But we are also parts that make up the sum total of who we are. The fact is, there are different aspects to who we are, and they can function in a mutually exclusive way; we are not uniformly constituted, nor ever could we have been built up as such as it does not match up with the original pattern of deity; however, all aspects of who we are can unify or coordinate, and personality serves this purpose.

We are material, mind, Thought Adjuster (higher self); each is superimposed upon the other; each is able to express itself without the assistance of the other. Yet, personality coordinates them.

What happens to mind when personality fails to initiate fusion between it and Thought Adjuster? We are told personality is terminated. But that does not mean mind ceases to exist?

Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'

_________________


The term "reincarnation" was used here. Unfortunate, because reincarnation is not taught as a reality in The Urantia Book. However, later, the poster amended his wording. BTW, on that subject, I too, question whether Catholics teach reincarnation; my experience says they do not. You may be thinking of the Hindus or the Buddhists...if anyone DOES want to discuss that topic, the Skeptic's Corner, or Abner's corner is the appropriate place for that. But even then, it is not an appropriate topic, since it has no relation to the teachings of the UB.

Nevertheless, this thread is not one that should be moved just because that word was used; had the discussion taken that turn, action would have been taken. The gist of the original thread is in regards to what happens to mind when a personality fails at fusion. Please do not let yourselves be sidetracked into another shouting match. Those who prompt such responses are in error here; not the one who has initiated the thread. Please moderate your responses in courtesy and kindness, as you might if you were actually in a face-to-face discussion with a brother or sister.

And please - bringing our brother Larry back from the dead to moderate these discussions will not be tolerated, either. Larry was above all, my friend of many years; also a valuable ally and collaborator in all the work done here at TruthBook, and he is sorely missed. If I know him at all, I think I can safely say that this is the last thing he would wish to happen. He would probably make a joke of it, and make me laugh, but I don't find it amusing.

MaryJo



I certainly meant no offense by quoting someone I also highly respected and admired and told so with some frequency. A fellow believer in the authority, importance, and integrity of the Revelation. A truth warrior if you will. Someone who was a stalwart defender of this site, its student body community, and the Guidelines here....drawing and maintaining clear boundries of propriety and unacceptable topics, posts, and behaviors.


I did not and still do not understand the desire to silence the voices and end the influence of those who graduate before us. We all quote so many such ones...the wisdom of the ages. Larry shaped and defined TB, his legacy here should have a lasting effect. A review and study of his words is very appropriate IMO and his well articulated and oft repeated wisdom remains a mighty voice here for our consideration. He simply would not tolerate anyone here to preach and post theories and make declarations in contradiction to the Revelation or to impeach the text by accusations of its inaccuracy or unreliability or any other demeaning and degrading accusations or even inferences here. Out of bounds.


His loyalty to the Revelation and the Guidelines were an inspiring and exemplary example to a generation of students here. I miss his voice...and have often revisited it since his graduation. A remarkable library of commentary and guidance....still.

search.php?author_id=29&sr=posts

Larry and I got along so well for so long...not a single "board warning" in 6 1/2 years! Since his graduation...4 or so already. Hmmmmm.....

It has been my intention here to refute claims and ideas and opinions I find here that contradict the Revelation and defame the integrity of the authors of that Revelation. Reincarnation was the original claim; it was then redefined to obscure the false claim; and then the Catholics were falsely blamed for the false claim....yet another example of a very historical pattern of sensationalism and the twisting of words and claims by the poster here...."I didn't say it; I didn't mean it; okay I said it but you misunderstood it - let me redefine the word; etc.; etc." Oh he said it and he meant it and he believes it and he defends it. Pre-existance, re-materialization, all of it....or so his current and historical posts clearly declare.

I wonder who was going to raise an objection to the use and claim of "reincarnation"? Was it just to pass and be allowed to stand as if it represented fact and truth? The insidious silence of acceptance results in endorsement and the confusion of all students...especially new readers. No objections here any longer of such nonsense and falsehood? Just let any say whatever? When was this false claim to find objection here? Curious. Remarkable. Regrettable. A path of certain destruction of the integrity of this study group if such silence is preferred IMO.


Like the Revelation....I oppose such ideas and claims...and so did Brother Larry. I look forward to the shared laughter to come as we all look back at such times as these.

I will strive to depersonalize my opposition to those declarations and claims here that defy the authority and truthfulness of the Revelation while instead presenting personal theories for our consideration here rather than and contrary to the text itself.

8)

By the way....a review of my words here failed to discover anything personal at all...or any shouting. ?????????


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 548
Location: Nanticoke NY
There is no doubt that Larry Watkins could defuse with wit what you have aggravated with your sense of alarm and indignation.

You are saying that you take it upon as a challenge, whenever someone is introducing a personal theory, or a personal teaching, or any idea that you think may go against the Revelation. fanofVan reiterate your stance aggressively instead of reconciling through the warning you are paid. All I can ask if that you be more considerate and tolerant.

You are too easily triggered by theories which are not explicitly endorsed by Jesus in the fourth Book of Urantia fanofVan. But if you are to be ever more graceful should you simply let others be heard considerately, without this accusation the questioning of motive.

_________________
to the underlaying unity of all life
so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
The record shows that Larry, in his wisdom, was very blunt and direct. And so he often was with you Stephen in his rebukes of your theories and declarations which contradicted the UB. I would certainly agree Larry had/has far more wit and wisdom than myself. That does not mean he was patient with contradictions to and defiance of the UB....by anybody....anytime. No equivocation. No interest in fables, theories, opinions, declarations, etc. which contradict the text we are gathered here to study.

Recently on one of your theories posted here, I pointed out 14 contradictions to the text. I did so with insufficient grace, charm, and wit. Nonetheless, the contradictions were declared and defended here by you...as reincarnation was declared and defended here by bb. Are facts and truth not also important in addition to grace and charm and wit Steven? For Larry also often disputed your claims here. As the record shows.

I will not quote those which is apparently unwelcomed and in poor taste according to some....but the link above reveals much about Brother Larry's wit....and wisdom.

Thanks for pointing those out Stephen.

:wink:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2722
brooklyn_born wrote:
First post to thread amended (unable to revise the post since the edit feature is no longer available):


Original:

"Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event commonly is known as 'reincarnation.'"

Amended:

"Mind continues on. It is remanded to the material plane by its source, the Third Person of Deity. This event has similar implication as what is called in Catholicism as reincarnation.

That should fix the problem.


Sorry...that does not fix the problem at all.

Links to catholic.com:

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/onlin ... n-biblical

https://www.catholic.com/tract/reincarnation


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group