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 Post subject: Re: Our abnormal planet
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Dook wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Dook wrote:

Being turned off or deleted is not the same as burning for eternity. The writers of the books of the bible confused old ideas of hell with what Jesus was teaching them.


Why do you speak of individuals as if we are robots or computers? Sure but the fact remains that there is no "hell" as is commonly understood by folks who subscribe to that notion. "Hell" by definition of anyone who believes in it is a state of eternal burning.

Dook wrote:
If you are born on a planet that is settled in Light and Life, how do you evolve if there is no suffering?


Well, sure! I mean, obviously (assuming a planet that is fully settled in L and L would continue to have new mortal life beginning on it, which I am not sure is correct). But how does the planet *achieve* Light and Life? It is by being inhabited for billions of years with mortal individuals who do the hard work of *getting* to that point! You can't just decide to be born on a planet for which all the hard work has already been done. Doing so would be cowardly and childish, even if it were possible.


Why do I speak of individuals as if we are robots or computers? Not robots or computers but like a program on a computer.

The UB says that you can cease to exist. That does not sound like human death. In human death you cease to function but your body still exists. The UB definition sounds like being completely deleted but God will still know of your life so it's as if God remembers you, like accessing a movie file, but YOU or your mind can't initiate or access anything.

How did Jesus receive full knowledge from heaven before He left heaven to form a universe? Beings can be formed already evolved. We didn't get that.


So what you are really asking about is the material level of creation and mortal beings in particular? For the Michaels and the Supreme and all celestials created in time and space are not truly evolved either...they still require experience and potential error and less than perfect choices and outcomes for their own perfecting by experiential wisdom acquired over time....lots of time. And in that time there remains the potential for evil/error and even sin/iniquity....althought outright rebellion has never occured in any being higher than a Lanonandek Son we are told. Michaels are not created perfect or all knowing....they require experience to fulfill their own destiny. Those children of time created by the Michaels and the Mother Spirit are even less perfected...and then there is the Supreme to consider.

So as we consider our "abnormal" world, perhaps this issue is a good one to research....why are there material worlds and material children of time? Why aren't we all simply created with morontia bodies and minds? Why not just have a universe of architectural worlds? To begin Dook, your opinions are provided in a tone of judgment and condemnation and criticism of God....just sayin'. Louis also frequently claimed to be more wise than our Creators and Deity in his many complaints and disappointments related to the universe and our lives as mortals. I would suggest we approach the topic with simple curiosity and drop all the whining and disappointment in God's plan and purpose and simply try to discover those as best we can in the Revelation. Your dissatisfaction with God is yours alone here Dook.

It appears that God wishes to experience....experience. It also appears perfection seeks the experience of.... perfecting. And it seems that God wishes every level of experience and perfecting to participate and contribute and know perfecting by the experience of learning and becoming.

And it seems that for now mortals are the lower and outer limits of that creative process and plan but that this plan is an eternal one wherein all potential realized creates more and more potential for further realization in an endless sequence of experiential perfecting where in the mortals of time and space are not the end game at all but the beginning of the next phase of perfecting. And it is only our level of being that is endowed and may fuse with the God Fragment...(and a very few others created to work directly with us mortals).

Even local universe beings and the architectural worlds take billions of years and evolutionary formation and perfecting over time!

Mortal beings are the epitome of faith children to whom God connects via the personality, mind, and mind ministries of the Spirits. We are the ultimate evolutionary children of God who must choose eternal partnership, often without example, knowledge, or peace and plenty....faith is strongest and most certain in the mortal children of time....we are told even those in Havona have an experiential deficiency compared to us mortals who reach Paradise. We are prized and we are integral to God's plans and purpose and expression. That's enough for me!! So glad to be here!! In this friendly and safe universe!!

By the way Dook, your lament about the restrictions and limits of evolutionary experiential wisdom acquirement sound familiar related to the lessons on false liberty in the UB....we must become spiriitized and spiritualized. Even those so much higher in creation also need this....true liberty is earned and not given or stolen or created....it is learned by perfecting in time. To God be the Glory and know that we may trust God's purpose, plans, and wisdom....far more than our own ignorance and preferences!!

God’s Relation to the Universe

4:0.1 (54.1) THE Universal Father has an eternal purpose pertaining to the material, intellectual, and spiritual phenomena of the universe of universes, which he is executing throughout all time. God created the universes of his own free and sovereign will, and he created them in accordance with his all-wise and eternal purpose. It is doubtful whether anyone except the Paradise Deities and their highest associates really knows very much about the eternal purpose of God. Even the exalted citizens of Paradise hold very diverse opinions about the nature of the eternal purpose of the Deities.

4:0.2 (54.2) It is easy to deduce that the purpose in creating the perfect central universe of Havona was purely the satisfaction of the divine nature. Havona may serve as the pattern creation for all other universes and as the finishing school for the pilgrims of time on their way to Paradise; however, such a supernal creation must exist primarily for the pleasure and satisfaction of the perfect and infinite Creators.

4:0.3 (54.3) The amazing plan for perfecting evolutionary mortals and, after their attainment of Paradise and the Corps of the Finality, providing further training for some undisclosed future work, does seem to be, at present, one of the chief concerns of the seven superuniverses and their many subdivisions; but this ascension scheme for spiritualizing and training the mortals of time and space is by no means the exclusive occupation of the universe intelligences. There are, indeed, many other fascinating pursuits which occupy the time and enlist the energies of the celestial hosts.

1. The Universe Attitude of the Father

4:1.1 (54.4) For ages the inhabitants of Urantia have misunderstood the providence of God. There is a providence of divine outworking on your world, but it is not the childish, arbitrary, and material ministry many mortals have conceived it to be. The providence of God consists in the interlocking activities of the celestial beings and the divine spirits who, in accordance with cosmic law, unceasingly labor for the honor of God and for the spiritual advancement of his universe children.

4:1.2 (54.5) Can you not advance in your concept of God’s dealing with man to that level where you recognize that the watchword of the universe is progress? Through long ages the human race has struggled to reach its present position. Throughout all these millenniums Providence has been working out the plan of progressive evolution. The two thoughts are not opposed in practice, only in man’s mistaken concepts. Divine providence is never arrayed in opposition to true human progress, either temporal or spiritual. Providence is always consistent with the unchanging and perfect nature of the supreme Lawmaker.

118:8.3 (1301.8) The spirit liberates, and the mechanism limits, the function of will. Imperfect choice, uncontrolled by mechanism, unidentified with spirit, is dangerous and unstable. Mechanical dominance insures stability at the expense of progress; spirit alliance liberates choice from the physical level and at the same time assures the divine stability produced by augmented universe insight and increased cosmic comprehension.

118:8.4 (1302.1) The great danger that besets the creature is that, in achieving liberation from the fetters of the life mechanism, he will fail to compensate this loss of stability by effecting a harmonious working liaison with spirit. Creature choice, when relatively liberated from mechanical stability, may attempt further self-liberation independent of greater spirit identification.

118:9.9 (1304.2) God the Supreme is the personalization of all universe experience, the focalization of all finite evolution, the maximation of all creature reality, the consummation of cosmic wisdom, the embodiment of the harmonious beauties of the galaxies of time, the truth of cosmic mind meanings, and the goodness of supreme spirit values. And God the Supreme will, in the eternal future, synthesize these manifold finite diversities into one experientially meaningful whole, even as they are now existentially united on absolute levels in the Paradise Trinity.

118:8.5 (1302.2) The whole principle of biologic evolution makes it impossible for primitive man to appear on the inhabited worlds with any large endowment of self-restraint. Therefore does the same creative design which purposed evolution likewise provide those external restraints of time and space, hunger and fear, which effectively circumscribe the subspiritual choice range of such uncultured creatures. As man’s mind successfully overstrides increasingly difficult barriers, this same creative design has also provided for the slow accumulation of the racial heritage of painfully garnered experiential wisdom—in other words, for the maintenance of a balance between the diminishing external restraints and the augmenting internal restraints.

118:8.6 (1302.3) The slowness of evolution, of human cultural progress, testifies to the effectiveness of that brake—material inertia—which so efficiently operates to retard dangerous velocities of progress. Thus does time itself cushion and distribute the otherwise lethal results of premature escape from the next-encompassing barriers to human action. For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the “dark ages” of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and self-control.

118:8.7 (1302.4) The iniquity of Caligastia was the by-passing of the time governor of progressive human liberation—the gratuitous destruction of restraining barriers, barriers which the mortal minds of those times had not experientially overridden.


8)


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 Post subject: Re: Our abnormal planet
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fanofVan wrote:

So what you are really asking about is the material level of creation and mortal beings in particular? For the Michaels and the Supreme and all celestials created in time and space are not truly evolved either...they still require experience and potential error and less than perfect choices and outcomes for their own perfecting by experiential wisdom acquired over time....lots of time. And in that time there remains the potential for evil/error and even sin/iniquity....althought outright rebellion has never occured in any being higher than a Lanonandek Son we are told. Michaels are not created perfect or all knowing....they require experience to fulfill their own destiny. Those children of time created by the Michaels and the Mother Spirit are even less perfected...and then there is the Supreme to consider.

So as we consider our "abnormal" world, perhaps this issue is a good one to research....why are there material worlds and material children of time? Why aren't we all simply created with morontia bodies and minds? Why not just have a universe of architectural worlds? To begin Dook, your opinions are provided in a tone of judgment and condemnation and criticism of God....just sayin'. Louis also frequently claimed to be more wise than our Creators and Deity in his many complaints and disappointments related to the universe and our lives as mortals. I would suggest we approach the topic with simple curiosity and drop all the whining and disappointment in God's plan and purpose and simply try to discover those as best we can in the Revelation. Your dissatisfaction with God is yours alone here Dook.

It appears that God wishes to experience....experience. It also appears perfection seeks the experience of.... perfecting. And it seems that God wishes every level of experience and perfecting to participate and contribute and know perfecting by the experience of learning and becoming.

And it seems that for now mortals are the lower and outer limits of that creative process and plan but that this plan is an eternal one wherein all potential realized creates more and more potential for further realization in an endless sequence of experiential perfecting where in the mortals of time and space are not the end game at all but the beginning of the next phase of perfecting. And it is only our level of being that is endowed and may fuse with the God Fragment...(and a very few others created to work directly with us mortals).

Even local universe beings and the architectural worlds take billions of years and evolutionary formation and perfecting over time!

Mortal beings are the epitome of faith children to whom God connects via the personality, mind, and mind ministries of the Spirits. We are the ultimate evolutionary children of God who must choose eternal partnership, often without example, knowledge, or peace and plenty....faith is strongest and most certain in the mortal children of time....we are told even those in Havona have an experiential deficiency compared to us mortals who reach Paradise. We are prized and we are integral to God's plans and purpose and expression. That's enough for me!! So glad to be here!! In this friendly and safe universe!!

By the way Dook, your lament about the restrictions and limits of evolutionary experiential wisdom acquirement sound familiar related to the lessons on false liberty in the UB....we must become spiriitized and spiritualized. Even those so much higher in creation also need this....true liberty is earned and not given or stolen or created....it is learned by perfecting in time. To God be the Glory and know that we may trust God's purpose, plans, and wisdom....far more than our own ignorance and preferences!!

God’s Relation to the Universe

4:0.1 (54.1) THE Universal Father has an eternal purpose pertaining to the material, intellectual, and spiritual phenomena of the universe of universes, which he is executing throughout all time. God created the universes of his own free and sovereign will, and he created them in accordance with his all-wise and eternal purpose. It is doubtful whether anyone except the Paradise Deities and their highest associates really knows very much about the eternal purpose of God. Even the exalted citizens of Paradise hold very diverse opinions about the nature of the eternal purpose of the Deities.

4:0.2 (54.2) It is easy to deduce that the purpose in creating the perfect central universe of Havona was purely the satisfaction of the divine nature. Havona may serve as the pattern creation for all other universes and as the finishing school for the pilgrims of time on their way to Paradise; however, such a supernal creation must exist primarily for the pleasure and satisfaction of the perfect and infinite Creators.

4:0.3 (54.3) The amazing plan for perfecting evolutionary mortals and, after their attainment of Paradise and the Corps of the Finality, providing further training for some undisclosed future work, does seem to be, at present, one of the chief concerns of the seven superuniverses and their many subdivisions; but this ascension scheme for spiritualizing and training the mortals of time and space is by no means the exclusive occupation of the universe intelligences. There are, indeed, many other fascinating pursuits which occupy the time and enlist the energies of the celestial hosts.

1. The Universe Attitude of the Father

4:1.1 (54.4) For ages the inhabitants of Urantia have misunderstood the providence of God. There is a providence of divine outworking on your world, but it is not the childish, arbitrary, and material ministry many mortals have conceived it to be. The providence of God consists in the interlocking activities of the celestial beings and the divine spirits who, in accordance with cosmic law, unceasingly labor for the honor of God and for the spiritual advancement of his universe children.

4:1.2 (54.5) Can you not advance in your concept of God’s dealing with man to that level where you recognize that the watchword of the universe is progress? Through long ages the human race has struggled to reach its present position. Throughout all these millenniums Providence has been working out the plan of progressive evolution. The two thoughts are not opposed in practice, only in man’s mistaken concepts. Divine providence is never arrayed in opposition to true human progress, either temporal or spiritual. Providence is always consistent with the unchanging and perfect nature of the supreme Lawmaker.

118:8.3 (1301.8) The spirit liberates, and the mechanism limits, the function of will. Imperfect choice, uncontrolled by mechanism, unidentified with spirit, is dangerous and unstable. Mechanical dominance insures stability at the expense of progress; spirit alliance liberates choice from the physical level and at the same time assures the divine stability produced by augmented universe insight and increased cosmic comprehension.

118:8.4 (1302.1) The great danger that besets the creature is that, in achieving liberation from the fetters of the life mechanism, he will fail to compensate this loss of stability by effecting a harmonious working liaison with spirit. Creature choice, when relatively liberated from mechanical stability, may attempt further self-liberation independent of greater spirit identification.

118:9.9 (1304.2) God the Supreme is the personalization of all universe experience, the focalization of all finite evolution, the maximation of all creature reality, the consummation of cosmic wisdom, the embodiment of the harmonious beauties of the galaxies of time, the truth of cosmic mind meanings, and the goodness of supreme spirit values. And God the Supreme will, in the eternal future, synthesize these manifold finite diversities into one experientially meaningful whole, even as they are now existentially united on absolute levels in the Paradise Trinity.

118:8.5 (1302.2) The whole principle of biologic evolution makes it impossible for primitive man to appear on the inhabited worlds with any large endowment of self-restraint. Therefore does the same creative design which purposed evolution likewise provide those external restraints of time and space, hunger and fear, which effectively circumscribe the subspiritual choice range of such uncultured creatures. As man’s mind successfully overstrides increasingly difficult barriers, this same creative design has also provided for the slow accumulation of the racial heritage of painfully garnered experiential wisdom—in other words, for the maintenance of a balance between the diminishing external restraints and the augmenting internal restraints.

118:8.6 (1302.3) The slowness of evolution, of human cultural progress, testifies to the effectiveness of that brake—material inertia—which so efficiently operates to retard dangerous velocities of progress. Thus does time itself cushion and distribute the otherwise lethal results of premature escape from the next-encompassing barriers to human action. For when culture advances overfast, when material achievement outruns the evolution of worship-wisdom, then does civilization contain within itself the seeds of retrogression; and unless buttressed by the swift augmentation of experiential wisdom, such human societies will recede from high but premature levels of attainment, and the “dark ages” of the interregnum of wisdom will bear witness to the inexorable restoration of the imbalance between self-liberty and self-control.

118:8.7 (1302.4) The iniquity of Caligastia was the by-passing of the time governor of progressive human liberation—the gratuitous destruction of restraining barriers, barriers which the mortal minds of those times had not experientially overridden.


8)


The very high level beings don't evolve but still need some experience? I would be okay with that. I don't have to have my own universe but living on a planet that is settled in Light and Life would be fine with me. My problem is the serial killers, the child molesters and murderers, the child abusers, rapists, control freaks, the lazy and the extremely selfish. How are those personality experiences things that God wants to have?

My tone is one of criticism of God? Oh well. If God wanted mindless always agreeable robots then He should not have given us free will.

My dissatisfaction lies more with the angels than God. God does not interfere regardless of what happens in the universe. He didn't stop the Lucifer Rebellion or WW2 so I don't expect Him to intervene and help a child with cancer.


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It appears you don't know anything about the UB and do not wish to. Angels do not create. And you do not appear to know in whom you are disappointed and criticize....is it God the First Source and Center or is it the Michael Sons who create universes according to the creative mandates and limits of God? Or is it the Power Centers and Life Carriers and the Adjutants, charged with evolutionary life on the material worlds? So far you have blamed them all and also mistakenly called them all angels.

Perhaps you are only here to jerk us around after all and obstruct study and demean the UB with your endless misrepresentations of the Papers and the words of those who post here. Are you amused with yourself Dook? So much criticism of Deity and our celestial friends and such hubris to claim greater wisdom than God, and when called out on it you just shuffle your feet and pretend you didn't say it or didn't mean it or it doesn't mean anything....and none of it obviously comes from the UB. In fact, each quote contradicts the UB directly...and you couldn't care less.

Some of your words here which contradict the UB and you refuse to address:

"The difficulties we have on the earth are because the angels did not complete their mission."

"The celestial helpers are not helping. They have a job to do for the universe. That job is not to provide you with anything you want or think you deserve. Jesus, after ascending, gave an order that no angel will interfere anymore because the souls preferred to come to the earth rather than other places where sentient beings are taught the truth from the beginning."

"Michael chose to allow the rebellion to continue so He could find out which angels were faithful and which were rebels. The consequences of that decision meant that human women had to forever experience intense pain during childbirth, something CAUSED by Adam and Eve blending in their genes with the primitives. The entire Divine Plan for humanity was abandoned and a new plan of non-interference was established. And Caligastia was allowed to remain on the world and continue his nefarious activities, whatever they may be. So, that is proof that human learning and evolution is not as important to the universe. Also, it kind of proves that there is a problem with the divine plan. If it was abandoned then there are circumstances where it doesn't apply."

" Mortal primitivisms are not the fault of the angels of the Most Highs? But there was a Divine Plan. What happens if you go into your work and decide that you are not going to do your job because you want to do something else? You get fired pretty quickly, before you can do any real harm to the company, right? Michael allowed the rebellion to continue and then He did not fix the mistakes in humanity, He allowed them to continue. So we get Hitler and Jack the Ripper and Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony and tens of thousands more.

Michael should have zapped the rebel angels into nothingness the moment they rebelled, or, at least, removed and replaced them immediately instead of allowing the rebellion to continue."

"My views are not contradictory to the UB."

"Michael being merciful is perfectly fine with me but the rebels should have been removed immediately and loyal angels sent in to complete the Divine Plan as it was. If Michael wants to be completely merciful they could maybe set up a system where the rebels angels can go and have their own way with things as long as no beings are born there and it's only angels. My point is that it should not have been allowed to continue and even after it was the damage done should have been fixed."

"You live in a friendly universe? Which one is that? How far away is it?

You trust God? Flower petals and perfume."

"We are God fragments and we don't even know whether God exists or not. That's why Jesus did not snap His fingers and make every human fully aware of God. He could have but that kind of instant proof is not allowed. There always has to be a degree of choice.

Souls preferred humans because we are disconnected from God, farther than other beings, but we allow a soul to connect to us. We're a mixture of sentience with primitive genes. We're animals with a soul."


Not one of the above statements is true and each contradicts the UB. So what's your agenda here Dook?

:roll:


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fanofVan wrote:
It appears you don't know anything about the UB and do not wish to. Angels do not create. And you do not appear to know in whom you are disappointed and criticize....is it God the First Source and Center or is it the Michael Sons who create universes according to the creative mandates and limits of God? Or is it the Power Centers and Life Carriers and the Adjutants, charged with evolutionary life on the material worlds? So far you have blamed them all and also mistakenly called them all angels.

Perhaps you are only here to jerk us around after all and obstruct study and demean the UB with your endless misrepresentations of the Papers and the words of those who post here. Are you amused with yourself Dook? So much criticism of Deity and our celestial friends and such hubris to claim greater wisdom than God, and when called out on it you just shuffle your feet and pretend you didn't say it or didn't mean it or it doesn't mean anything....and none of it obviously comes from the UB. In fact, each quote contradicts the UB directly...and you couldn't care less.

Some of your words here which contradict the UB and you refuse to address:

"The difficulties we have on the earth are because the angels did not complete their mission."

"The celestial helpers are not helping. They have a job to do for the universe. That job is not to provide you with anything you want or think you deserve. Jesus, after ascending, gave an order that no angel will interfere anymore because the souls preferred to come to the earth rather than other places where sentient beings are taught the truth from the beginning."

"Michael chose to allow the rebellion to continue so He could find out which angels were faithful and which were rebels. The consequences of that decision meant that human women had to forever experience intense pain during childbirth, something CAUSED by Adam and Eve blending in their genes with the primitives. The entire Divine Plan for humanity was abandoned and a new plan of non-interference was established. And Caligastia was allowed to remain on the world and continue his nefarious activities, whatever they may be. So, that is proof that human learning and evolution is not as important to the universe. Also, it kind of proves that there is a problem with the divine plan. If it was abandoned then there are circumstances where it doesn't apply."

" Mortal primitivisms are not the fault of the angels of the Most Highs? But there was a Divine Plan. What happens if you go into your work and decide that you are not going to do your job because you want to do something else? You get fired pretty quickly, before you can do any real harm to the company, right? Michael allowed the rebellion to continue and then He did not fix the mistakes in humanity, He allowed them to continue. So we get Hitler and Jack the Ripper and Scott Peterson and Casey Anthony and tens of thousands more.

Michael should have zapped the rebel angels into nothingness the moment they rebelled, or, at least, removed and replaced them immediately instead of allowing the rebellion to continue."

"My views are not contradictory to the UB."

"Michael being merciful is perfectly fine with me but the rebels should have been removed immediately and loyal angels sent in to complete the Divine Plan as it was. If Michael wants to be completely merciful they could maybe set up a system where the rebels angels can go and have their own way with things as long as no beings are born there and it's only angels. My point is that it should not have been allowed to continue and even after it was the damage done should have been fixed."

"You live in a friendly universe? Which one is that? How far away is it?

You trust God? Flower petals and perfume."

"We are God fragments and we don't even know whether God exists or not. That's why Jesus did not snap His fingers and make every human fully aware of God. He could have but that kind of instant proof is not allowed. There always has to be a degree of choice.

Souls preferred humans because we are disconnected from God, farther than other beings, but we allow a soul to connect to us. We're a mixture of sentience with primitive genes. We're animals with a soul."


Not one of the above statements is true and each contradicts the UB. So what's your agenda here Dook?

:roll:


Angels do not create? I know they don't. You must have missed all of my posts where I explained that only God can create. Other beings just move things around that already exist. But angels can rebel.

Creating a universe and fragmenting your form into pieces that connect with primitive biological beings to help them evolve is great. I guess you would need some help with managing it all. I think the rule should have been that when celestials or angels rebel they should immediately be zapped into nothingness so that it is as if they never even existed.

I don't know who I criticize? All the rebel angels or celestials. I also criticize the decision to let the rebellion continue. I also criticize the abandonment of the Divine Plan.

You can be the mindless flowers and perfume robot.

Am I amused with myself? Actually I prefer the Scary Snowman videos when I want to be amused.

I claim greater wisdom than God? Nope, just a different agenda. Evolution without murder, rape, and child abuse would be a nice start.

I couldn't care less about contradicting the UB? I couldn't care less about contradicting your interpretation of the UB where you have taken things out of context and picked and chosen only the good things that you think will grant you great power and control.

Every statement I posted is true. You just don't like them because I do not sprinkle flower petals on the bad things.

My mission is the truth? What's yours? Oh, yours is to pick and choose from the UB only that which will give you what you want. But it's not your universe.

You keep going over the same thing over and over and over again. Do you have any new ideas? This is really getting booooring.


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Dook wrote:
Why do you feel you should have the power to control what other people say?


Why do you feel anyone here is attempting to control what you or anyone else here says? By posting in a community forum you naturally subject your views to criticism. There is, perhaps, a partially unstated understanding that all who post here are attempting to offer something constructive. If over a longer time period the general consensus is that a person is rarely offering something constructive, don't they need to reevaluate how they are participating?

P.S. Why not take the opportunity to use this forum and site as a learning opportunity? On the basis of recent posts there is a person who seems to have convinced themselves that they know and understand things so well that they require no learning, have the ability to be creative as an artist might and so dictate how to interpret what the revelators tell us. But what if such self-determined creativity is nearly entirely based on error?


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Thanks for the clarification Dook. So your disappointment and dissatisfaction with universe reality is truly non-specific and generally distributed toward every level of creation. Got it!

You disagree with God's plan of evolution and believe the universe and all its beings should come already evolved...so you're against local and universal evolution and experiential wisdom and personality and free will as all of those deliver the potential and probability of error and repercussions which are less than perfect. So God is mistaken and this means you also oppose the Supreme Being and the plan for eternal progression of the Master Universe and the ascension plan for mortals and celestials and whatever might be planned for the outer space levels.

It also means you're against the creation of mortal beings at all for any reason since the material worlds and life are in danger of pain and suffering from gravity and the laws of mechanical physics at work in the material and evolutionary arena of time and space.....so only perfect beings created on perfect spheres without any need for or potential for wisdom, faith, perfecting, or progress then. We mortals in time and space just shouldn't exist at all.


You also oppose and indict God and God's Creator Sons who extend mercy to those who sin and rebel in their immaturity and misunderstanding and rejection of or lack of knowledge about reality and a lack of wisdom and experience to have not yet perfected. All such disobedient ones should immediately be terminated and eliminated....so you are against the mercy ministry and time delay of justice....despite the endless claims of its wisdom and outcomes in the UB. You wish Michael to be less patient and more ruthless and demanding and more vengeful and punishing.

But of course if God did God's work correctly, according to Dook, then there would be no Creator Sons or mercy needed or judgment either, right?

And then there is your criticism and disappointment in the angels....although angels do not create nor do they rule nor do they administer planetary progress and epochs without approval and supervision of planetary rulers. That would be the Most Highs. So you also believe them to be incompetent or indifferent to our world and its needs and sufferings too. No one cares and everyone is incompetent according to Dook. And he is wise enough, far wiser than God, Michael, and the Most Highs (the short list), to tell us of their failures and how the universe-according-to-Dook should actually operate.


Dook claims above that we are not endowed or indwelt by the Spirits and ministered to in mind but we are just material beings, animals really, abandoned to our fears and sufferings...God is not here. Dook claims no celestial helpers are helping us personally or our world and they have abandoned us as well....no God, no Spirits within, no Guardian Angels, no loyal midwayers, no help from any quarter - we are completely abandoned in our isolation.


But then claims we are God fragments with pre-existing souls which have chosen us....whatever those claims might mean. We are animals that some soul has attached itself to but we are disconnected from God...confused yet?


As I said before...Dook may claim and invent and believe whatever he wishes....but not one claim above comes from the Urantia Book and every claim above defies and contradicts the UB....directly and exactly. Dook is no student of the UB and does not believe any part of the UB as his proclamations and false claims verify. Dook is also not here to learn or share the good news of universe reality but only to criticize reality and share his disappointment in God and tell us how much smarter and wiser than God he truly is.


How very special. Everyone from God to Michael to the Most Highs and all in between and below them is wrong....not a single being has yet been approved of by him. We have Dook to tell us this is so. Very special indeed!

It could take some time to consider all the text which directly contradicts Dook's many false beliefs and declarations shared with us here. It is unfortunate but true that there are others who also blame God for all suffering and believe God to be indifferent and uncaring and inattentive....or worse, angry and vengeful and punishing. And those who believe sin might prevail over love or already has and we are all doomed. Such a sad perspective of reality....doom and gloom....even among UB readers (or so claimed UB readers anyway). It is inexplicable to me that anyone could read even 100 pages or even 10 pages of these Papers and be so depressed and so anxious and feel so lonely and forsaken and doomed and disappointed in God....and come here to share such mind poison with others....as though they do so in loving service and kindness and hope and trust. What is the testimony of Dook here? What is the meaning? What is the value?


What is the motive and agenda?


Bradly :roll:


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Yep, I agree, Bradly. And, you know, it's fine to come here with questions, doubts, or feelings of uncertainty about TUB (that's what the Skeptics Corner segment of the Board is proactively provided for). But if someone wishes to participate in this community discussion group and to share their doubts or disagreements with TUB teachings, it is expected that they do so with an open mind, being willing to learn from others here, and with some humility.

We are all learning and trying to understand. We are here to help one another; but to come in with a hostile 'I know and you don't know and this isn't your universe!' attitude, is never going to achieve anything positive.

And this is directed to "Dook": Speaking of the idea that 'this isn't your universe'. Aren't we all indwelt with fragments of God? Don't we, by the way we think and believe, create our own reality? Aren't we responsible for our acceptance or rejection of what we find in the universe and to make it our own so that we can be more like God? I am a part of the universe and the universe is a part of me, so YES! This is MY universe. And it's yours, too.


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Riktare wrote:
Dook wrote:
Why do you feel you should have the power to control what other people say?


Why do you feel anyone here is attempting to control what you or anyone else here says? By posting in a community forum you naturally subject your views to criticism. There is, perhaps, a partially unstated understanding that all who post here are attempting to offer something constructive. If over a longer time period the general consensus is that a person is rarely offering something constructive, don't they need to reevaluate how they are participating?

P.S. Why not take the opportunity to use this forum and site as a learning opportunity? On the basis of recent posts there is a person who seems to have convinced themselves that they know and understand things so well that they require no learning, have the ability to be creative as an artist might and so dictate how to interpret what the revelators tell us. But what if such self-determined creativity is nearly entirely based on error?


Where are the new ideas from the regular UB members? You all did not know that humans and all other beings, except God, cannot create. I taught you something that was beyond your ability to see. I gave you something the UB did not give you. You should be incredibly appreciative of being taught something about how the universe really works but instead you resist and criticize it even though you can't come up with an original idea. That tells me that you don't want truth. You just want information that supports what you WANT to believe. You pick and choose. You mitigate the things you don't like and pretend they aren't really true. That's what primitives do and it's not progressive.

If you want to prove me wrong just post your original idea. I can't wait to see it.

Why not take the opportunity to use this forum as a learning opportunity? Okay, teach me something. Let's see what you got.

What if self determined creativity is nearly entirely based on error? You're hiding. You're so incredibly afraid that even a tiny part of the UB might not be true or might not be the way you believe it to be. You will never evolve. You will stay the same forever and read the UB over and over and over again because you have set your feet into concrete and told yourself that is all you need. The UB says there will always be something new to learn but obviously that does not apply to people like you who are afraid of any new idea.


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fanofVan wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Dook. So your disappointment and dissatisfaction with universe reality is truly non-specific and generally distributed toward every level of creation. Got it!

You disagree with God's plan of evolution and believe the universe and all its beings should come already evolved...so you're against local and universal evolution and experiential wisdom and personality and free will as all of those deliver the potential and probability of error and repercussions which are less than perfect. So God is mistaken and this means you also oppose the Supreme Being and the plan for eternal progression of the Master Universe and the ascension plan for mortals and celestials and whatever might be planned for the outer space levels.

It also means you're against the creation of mortal beings at all for any reason since the material worlds and life are in danger of pain and suffering from gravity and the laws of mechanical physics at work in the material and evolutionary arena of time and space.....so only perfect beings created on perfect spheres without any need for or potential for wisdom, faith, perfecting, or progress then. We mortals in time and space just shouldn't exist at all.


You also oppose and indict God and God's Creator Sons who extend mercy to those who sin and rebel in their immaturity and misunderstanding and rejection of or lack of knowledge about reality and a lack of wisdom and experience to have not yet perfected. All such disobedient ones should immediately be terminated and eliminated....so you are against the mercy ministry and time delay of justice....despite the endless claims of its wisdom and outcomes in the UB. You wish Michael to be less patient and more ruthless and demanding and more vengeful and punishing.

But of course if God did God's work correctly, according to Dook, then there would be no Creator Sons or mercy needed or judgment either, right?

And then there is your criticism and disappointment in the angels....although angels do not create nor do they rule nor do they administer planetary progress and epochs without approval and supervision of planetary rulers. That would be the Most Highs. So you also believe them to be incompetent or indifferent to our world and its needs and sufferings too. No one cares and everyone is incompetent according to Dook. And he is wise enough, far wiser than God, Michael, and the Most Highs (the short list), to tell us of their failures and how the universe-according-to-Dook should actually operate.


Dook claims above that we are not endowed or indwelt by the Spirits and ministered to in mind but we are just material beings, animals really, abandoned to our fears and sufferings...God is not here. Dook claims no celestial helpers are helping us personally or our world and they have abandoned us as well....no God, no Spirits within, no Guardian Angels, no loyal midwayers, no help from any quarter - we are completely abandoned in our isolation.


But then claims we are God fragments with pre-existing souls which have chosen us....whatever those claims might mean. We are animals that some soul has attached itself to but we are disconnected from God...confused yet?


As I said before...Dook may claim and invent and believe whatever he wishes....but not one claim above comes from the Urantia Book and every claim above defies and contradicts the UB....directly and exactly. Dook is no student of the UB and does not believe any part of the UB as his proclamations and false claims verify. Dook is also not here to learn or share the good news of universe reality but only to criticize reality and share his disappointment in God and tell us how much smarter and wiser than God he truly is.


How very special. Everyone from God to Michael to the Most Highs and all in between and below them is wrong....not a single being has yet been approved of by him. We have Dook to tell us this is so. Very special indeed!

It could take some time to consider all the text which directly contradicts Dook's many false beliefs and declarations shared with us here. It is unfortunate but true that there are others who also blame God for all suffering and believe God to be indifferent and uncaring and inattentive....or worse, angry and vengeful and punishing. And those who believe sin might prevail over love or already has and we are all doomed. Such a sad perspective of reality....doom and gloom....even among UB readers (or so claimed UB readers anyway). It is inexplicable to me that anyone could read even 100 pages or even 10 pages of these Papers and be so depressed and so anxious and feel so lonely and forsaken and doomed and disappointed in God....and come here to share such mind poison with others....as though they do so in loving service and kindness and hope and trust. What is the testimony of Dook here? What is the meaning? What is the value?


What is the motive and agenda?


Bradly :roll:


My disappointment with the universe is non-specific? I posted specifics. Sigh... You are so incredibly boring. You go over the same thing over and over and over and over. Here they are again: Angels allowed to rebel. Failure to complete selective breeding. Abandonment of the Divine Plan.

I disagree with God's plan? I don't know. Is having serial killers, Hitler, rapists, and child abusers part of God's plan? If they are then yes, I disagree with that. So you are for those things? If you had the chance to create a universe you would make it so those types exist or would you make some change so they did not?

You are quite the follower. You will follow a rabbit down a hole if it promises you flowers and perfume.

I criticize everything and everyone? You whine on and on and on. Boo hoo hoo Flipper. Everything you post is your interpretation of the UB. Don't you have any new ideas? Even one? I know you don't.

My motive is the truth. My agenda is the truth. What is yours? Rose colored glasses.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yep, I agree, Bradly. And, you know, it's fine to come here with questions, doubts, or feelings of uncertainty about TUB (that's what the Skeptics Corner segment of the Board is proactively provided for). But if someone wishes to participate in this community discussion group and to share their doubts or disagreements with TUB teachings, it is expected that they do so with an open mind, being willing to learn from others here, and with some humility.

We are all learning and trying to understand. We are here to help one another; but to come in with a hostile 'I know and you don't know and this isn't your universe!' attitude, is never going to achieve anything positive.

And this is directed to "Dook": Speaking of the idea that 'this isn't your universe'. Aren't we all indwelt with fragments of God? Don't we, by the way we think and believe, create our own reality? Aren't we responsible for our acceptance or rejection of what we find in the universe and to make it our own so that we can be more like God? I am a part of the universe and the universe is a part of me, so YES! This is MY universe. And it's yours, too.


I have learned about you people. You think you are special. You're not. You over emphasize the good things in the UB and ignore the bad things. That's lying to yourself, something you probably do quite a lot. You think you will be given things. You won't. You have to earn everything. You think it will be easy. It won't. You will have great difficulty because you can't imagine, you are repeaters, recyclers of old ideas, but the old ideas are not enough to explain how the universe really works. You just go around and around instead of up.

Einstein thought he was smart. He was given some truths that he then gave to the world. But he kept on, he kept thinking and proposing and trying to come up with even more new ideas but everything that came after was incorrect. Why? Because new ideas are spread around. The next one is going to come from somewhere unpredictable. And you will be afraid of it.

We're all learning? No, you're not. You're stuck.

You don't like the "This isn't your universe!" Hehe... I'm sure you don't like that statement. You really think it is though, don't you?

Aren't we all fragments of God? Who is going to improve the earth so it evolves into Light and Life if we don't do it?

I'll actually give you a hint about what you might be able to do. Since you have so much trouble with new ideas I have to go into detail to explain them. In 2021 the James Webb Telescope will reveal galaxies farther away than 13.8 billion years. The big bang theory will be thrown out. Sounds like a chance for the teachings of the UB to make a grand entrance.

Don't we create our own reality? No, who told you that? If you are creating this reality, please stop.

You want to make this universe your own? That is rebellion. I have to warn you that the wages of sin is death.


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Dook wrote:

I'll actually give you a hint about what you might be able to do. Since you have so much trouble with new ideas I have to go into detail to explain them. In 2021 the James Webb Telescope will reveal galaxies farther away than 13.8 billion years. The big bang theory will be thrown out. Sounds like a chance for the teachings of the UB to make a grand entrance.



"Dook", it looks like you're the one having trouble with new ideas. Your so-called 'new idea' is old - at the very least it is 6 years old.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4101&p=48530&hilit=webb#p48530

And thought up by our very own MaryJo! :smile: We talk about all kinds of ideas here on the forum; but always within the context of the UB, since this is a topical forum focused on that specific book. If I had a new idea about how to make car engines run more efficiently, I'd share it on a forum about cars; I wouldn't bother posting it here because it is off-topic.

Dook wrote:
You all did not know that humans and all other beings, except God, cannot create. I taught you something that was beyond your ability to see. I gave you something the UB did not give you.


Have you ever heard the word "procreation"? You see, it's when a man and a woman love each other verrrrrry much and they have a special hug. Together, they create a new human! Yes, we can create by working together. Similarly, we can co-create with God; using our God-given talents, personalities, and our abilities that we develop, we can co-create wonderful works of art, music, technology, all kinds of things!

I just taught you something that was beyond your ability to see. Cool, huh?!


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Dook wrote:

I'll actually give you a hint about what you might be able to do. Since you have so much trouble with new ideas I have to go into detail to explain them. In 2021 the James Webb Telescope will reveal galaxies farther away than 13.8 billion years. The big bang theory will be thrown out. Sounds like a chance for the teachings of the UB to make a grand entrance.



"Dook", it looks like you're the one having trouble with new ideas. Your so-called 'new idea' is old - at the very least it is 6 years old.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4101&p=48530&hilit=webb#p48530

And thought up by our very own MaryJo! :smile: We talk about all kinds of ideas here on the forum; but always within the context of the UB, since this is a topical forum focused on that specific book. If I had a new idea about how to make car engines run more efficiently, I'd share it on a forum about cars; I wouldn't bother posting it here because it is off-topic.

Dook wrote:
You all did not know that humans and all other beings, except God, cannot create. I taught you something that was beyond your ability to see. I gave you something the UB did not give you.


Have you ever heard the word "procreation"? You see, it's when a man and a woman love each other verrrrrry much and they have a special hug. Together, they create a new human! Yes, we can create by working together. Similarly, we can co-create with God; using our God-given talents, personalities, and our abilities that we develop, we can co-create wonderful works of art, music, technology, all kinds of things!

I just taught you something that was beyond your ability to see. Cool, huh?!


My idea that the James Webb Telescope will discover distant galaxies is old? It's much older than six years. The first telescope was invented by Galileo and they have evolved ever since. The scientists designed and placed Hubble in orbit to see farther but it did not see far enough. James Webb will see farther than 13.8 billion years.

Maryjo started a topic six years ago about the James Webb Telescope and how it would support the ideas in the UB but she did not know that the entire big bang theory was based upon the 13.8 billion year number and that anything farther out than that would bring the theory down. Nor did anyone else realize that because that thread did not have any other posts to follow.

You talk about all kinds of ideas but always within the context of the UB? If your child gets sick which page of the UB tells you what to do? If your car does not start which page of the UB tells you how to fix it? If there is a wild land fire coming towards your home which page of the UB tells you what to do? If there is a serial rapist in your community which page of the UB tells you what to do? You have set your feet into cement and decided to just wait until you get to Morontia. That's your choice but the UB did not tell you to do that.

You wouldn't post a new idea about cars on the Truthbook forum? What about a new understanding of yourself and about people?

Have I ever used the world "procreation?" I don't think so. I would probably use the f word.

Man and women create new humans? They didn't even discover DNA until 1952 and even now they're still trying to figure out how DNA works.

Why don't you explain to me what life is then since you think you can create, explain it, what is life?


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Quote:
You talk about all kinds of ideas but always within the context of the UB? If your child gets sick which page of the UB tells you what to do? If your car does not start which page of the UB tells you how to fix it? If there is a wild land fire coming towards your home which page of the UB tells you what to do? If there is a serial rapist in your community which page of the UB tells you what to do? You have set your feet into cement. That's your choice but the UB did not tell you to do that.


"Dook" why in the world do you think TUB is the only source of information I ever look at?! That is utterly ridiculous. This is a UB discussion forum, so while I am here, I talk about UB. That certainly doesn't mean I don't read plenty of other books and consult many, many sources of information for going about my daily life.

I have my feet set into my shoes and I change my shoes frequently, depending on the context of where I'm going and what I want to do when I get there.

And "Dook" I assure you. You are not the first, or the only person to ever think of the big bang theory and the fact that new telescopes will come along that disprove that theory. Truly, you are not; you're not fooling anyone.


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Dook wrote:
Maryjo started a topic six years ago about the James Webb Telescope and how it would support the ideas in the UB but she did not know that the entire big bang theory was based upon the 13.8 billion year number and that anything farther out than that would bring the theory down. Nor did anyone else realize that because that thread did not have any other posts to follow.


That's just one thread. There have been many threads on the topic of the Big Bang theory on this forum with lots of participants engaging in lively discussion about the Big Bang theory (it's never been more than just a theory, therefore, subject to being proven wrong as acknowledged by calling it a "theory").

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4439


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Quote:
You talk about all kinds of ideas but always within the context of the UB? If your child gets sick which page of the UB tells you what to do? If your car does not start which page of the UB tells you how to fix it? If there is a wild land fire coming towards your home which page of the UB tells you what to do? If there is a serial rapist in your community which page of the UB tells you what to do? You have set your feet into cement. That's your choice but the UB did not tell you to do that.


"Dook" why in the world do you think TUB is the only source of information I ever look at?! That is utterly ridiculous. This is a UB discussion forum, so while I am here, I talk about UB. That certainly doesn't mean I don't read plenty of other books and consult many, many sources of information for going about my daily life.

I have my feet set into my shoes and I change my shoes frequently, depending on the context of where I'm going and what I want to do when I get there.

And "Dook" I assure you. You are not the first, or the only person to ever think of the big bang theory and the fact that new telescopes will come along that disprove that theory. Truly, you are not; you're not fooling anyone.

You assure me that I am not the first to think of the big bang theory and new telescopes will come along and disprove that theory? You have no connection to science so you don't know what is about to happen.

The scientists thought the James Webb Telescope would allow them to see the actual big bang. They have no idea that it will actually reveal galaxies much older than 13.8 billion years. They are going to be devastated. Oh, and the conservation of energy theory is based upon the big bang so it's going to have to go also. Now, all of that is only if the scientists tell the truth and do not hide the actual results.

If you were a scientist who has spent years in college studying accepted physics and suddenly you discover proof that the last 60 years of science has been wrong and scientists should have known it was wrong because their theory violated the most basic law, gravity, what would you do?


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