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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Jim George wrote:
Brad,

I don't have an opinion on these issues because I find my opinions to be a distraction in my quest to discover God personally. He has made it clear to me that my opinions have no value in my learning to conform my will to his. He seeks my commitment not my opinion. So I share my commitment and generally refuse to voice my opinions.

I see personal opinions as impediments to spiritual growth and I fully believe that is what the book teaches.

...

Jim


Hmmmm.

Jim George wrote:

What I wrote regarding the purpose of the Urantia Book is my opinion
.....

Jim


Quote:
Well, that simply is not true. The difference between me and you is that I think personal religious experience is personal. I consider my personal relationship with God to be sacred, intimate and inviolate. To parade it around would be to debase it, in my opinion.

...

Jim


Jim George[/url] wrote:
....

I am of the opinion that one of the reasons many of us enjoy reading Part 4 so much is because of the intellectual and spiritual similarity we sense to the Midwayers. ...

Jim


Oh, and don't forget the one you posted right here in this very thread:

Jim George wrote:

...
This is not simply my opinion, but it is my limited understanding gleaned from practicing this process for nearly 50 years.
...

Jim

(140:8.5) He never ceased to warn his disciples against the evil practice of retaliation; he made no allowance for revenge, the idea of getting even.


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Oh, no worries, Nod. This isn't retaliation, this is about shining a light on Jim's hypocrisy. I happen to think (it is my opinion) a little humility doesn't hurt anyone.

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140:8.21 (1582.2) Jesus had little to say about the social vices of his day; seldom did he make reference to moral delinquency. He was a positive teacher of true virtue. He studiously avoided the negative method of imparting instruction; he refused to advertise evil. He was not even a moral reformer. He well knew, and so taught his apostles, that the sensual urges of mankind are not suppressed by either religious rebuke or legal prohibitions. His few denunciations were largely directed against pride, cruelty, oppression, and hypocrisy.


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Then why do you keep denouncing Agon?


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Then why do you keep denouncing Agon?


Yes indeed nod... why do you keep denouncing Agon? Excellent question.

Jim George wrote:
Brad,

I don't have an opinion on these issues because I find my opinions to be a distraction in my quest to discover God personally. He has made it clear to me that my opinions have no value in my learning to conform my will to his. He seeks my commitment not my opinion. So I share my commitment and generally refuse to voice my opinions.

I see personal opinions as impediments to spiritual growth and I fully believe that is what the book teaches.

So, no, I won't join the conversation more than I have, unless so guided by God.

Jim


Well Jim...as has been pointed out, you have certainly been willing to share your opinions so far!! An odd declaration indeed! However, what I was asking for is less of an opinion than your understanding of the UB. You are well read and you attend a study group of UB readers/students here. Does the UB teach that discussing our understanding of the text and sharing the text are "impediments to spiritual growth"? Strange. I recall you declaring (and my agreement) that knowledge is not needed for salvation or survival...but only faith is required....as written in the text.

Was that an opinion that became an impediment to your spiritual growth? Really? Are we not to learn and to discern and think and formulate opinions Jim? There are so many examples of your opinions here at TruthBook….I find this declaration to be very confusing and in contradiction to years of posts here....especially regarding your two most recent topics totally filled with and based on your opinions: "No Longer Merely Human" and "Offering A Different Perspective". And every post on this topic has included so many opinions too.....curious.


Indeed...if you are unwilling to discuss the contents of the UB and you are now, and rather suddenly, of the "opinion" that opinions are a "distraction in your quest to discover God" and that God has, recently, made it clear to you (!!?? :( :-s ) that your opinions "have no value", and that now your opinions are an impediment to your spiritual growth....but also declare your belief (opinion) that this is what the UB teaches, then I am very confused by your attendance here....and your words both.

Sorry Jim....but the dog you just posted won't hunt. Try again?

Bradly 8)


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fanofVan wrote:

Far as I know there is only one soul birth and I don't think it can be described as a "conscious spiritual choice" either.


right...and the path to salvation you proposed only required soul birth. which is why you can't answer the question and proves my point.


Last edited by Makalu on Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:00 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Makalu wrote:

there is no such thing in the papers nor in anyones experience...thats the point...it was a jab


This is a notable admission of lack of sincerity in your intent here. I take this to mean that your primary motive in posting here is to fight, hurt, and show dominance - never mind about what TUB says; you just want to WIN.

Perhaps this isn't the study group for you.


no its an admission to sarcasm

judge not lest ye be judged


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No judging involved; I just took you at your word.


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But it is interesting and maybe profitable to consider that our strongly held (or especially unreasonably strongly held) opinions may be serious impediments to our growth and our ability to become more sincere. What the difference is between opinions and prejudices may be hard to identify, especially within oneself. Maybe there are some guidelines or material about that to look at?

Back on the original subject, the revelators do compare the Supreme Being (as possibly the intelligent, personalized and deifying encompassing of the Grand Universe) to a human or ascender. But the important relationship there is that the Supreme Being must rely on the direction of the Trinity in an analogous way the we rely on the direction of the TA.

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116:3.4 (1271.2) 3. The indwelling presences of the First Source and Center. Mind unifies spirit causations with energy reactions; bestowal ministry unifies divinity descensions with creature ascensions; and the indwelling fragments of the Universal Father actually unify the evolving creatures with God on Paradise. There are many such presences of the Father which indwell numerous orders of personalities, and in mortal man these divine fragments of God are the Thought Adjusters. The Mystery Monitors are to human beings what the Paradise Trinity is to the Supreme Being. The Adjusters are absolute foundations, and upon absolute foundations freewill choice can cause to be evolved the divine reality of an eternaliter nature, finaliter nature in the case of man, Deity nature in God the Supreme.


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Makalu wrote:
fanofVan wrote:

Far as I know there is only one soul birth and I don't think it can be described as a "conscious spiritual choice" either.


right...and the path to salvation you proposed only required soul birth. which is why you can't answer the question and proves my point.


This declaration of your Makalu presumes no soul growth or religious experience without "conscious spiritual choice"...only its birth. Soul growth and the spiritization of mind is ongoing and does not require conversion, knowledge, declaration, or conscious beliefs. Religious experience is innate and inherent and, often unconscious, in the human condition and experience....thankfully - whether you believe it or not!!

Beliefs and declarations are secondary to the functionality of the spirits and their very real and natural connection to mortal mind....mortals have a religious experience, regardless of beliefs, knowledge, cognition, and conscious choice. And all potential (like soul for example) is subject to time, patience, mercy, love, and hope for its future actualization - it is never destroyed - not ever so long as it flickers!

5. The Supremacy of Purposive Potential

102:5.1 (1123.7) Although the establishment of the fact of belief is not equivalent to establishing the fact of that which is believed, nevertheless, the evolutionary progression of simple life to the status of personality does demonstrate the fact of the existence of the potential of personality to start with. And in the time universes, potential is always supreme over the actual. In the evolving cosmos the potential is what is to be, and what is to be is the unfolding of the purposive mandates of Deity.

102:5.2 (1124.1) This same purposive supremacy is shown in the evolution of mind ideation when primitive animal fear is transmuted into the constantly deepening reverence for God and into increasing awe of the universe. Primitive man had more religious fear than faith, and the supremacy of spirit potentials over mind actuals is demonstrated when this craven fear is translated into living faith in spiritual realities.

102:5.3 (1124.2) You can psychologize evolutionary religion but not the personal-experience religion of spiritual origin. Human morality may recognize values, but only religion can conserve, exalt, and spiritualize such values. But notwithstanding such actions, religion is something more than emotionalized morality. Religion is to morality as love is to duty, as sonship is to servitude, as essence is to substance. Morality discloses an almighty Controller, a Deity to be served; religion discloses an all-loving Father, a God to be worshiped and loved. And again this is because the spiritual potentiality of religion is dominant over the duty actuality of the morality of evolution.

6. The Certainty of Religious Faith

102:6.1 (1124.3) The philosophic elimination of religious fear and the steady progress of science add greatly to the mortality of false gods; and even though these casualties of man-made deities may momentarily befog the spiritual vision, they eventually destroy that ignorance and superstition which so long obscured the living God of eternal love. The relation between the creature and the Creator is a living experience, a dynamic religious faith, which is not subject to precise definition. To isolate part of life and call it religion is to disintegrate life and to distort religion. And this is just why the God of worship claims all allegiance or none.

102:6.2 (1124.4) The gods of primitive men may have been no more than shadows of themselves; the living God is the divine light whose interruptions constitute the creation shadows of all space.

102:8.1 (1127.5) The highest evidence of the reality and efficacy of religion consists in the fact of human experience; namely, that man, naturally fearful and suspicious, innately endowed with a strong instinct of self-preservation and craving survival after death, is willing fully to trust the deepest interests of his present and future to the keeping and direction of that power and person designated by his faith as God. That is the one central truth of all religion. As to what that power or person requires of man in return for this watchcare and final salvation, no two religions agree; in fact, they all more or less disagree.

102:8.3 (1127.7) The difference in the religions of various ages is wholly dependent on the difference in man’s comprehension of reality and on his differing recognition of moral values, ethical relationships, and spirit realities.

102:8.4 (1127.8) Ethics is the external social or racial mirror which faithfully reflects the otherwise unobservable progress of internal spiritual and religious developments. Man has always thought of God in the terms of the best he knew, his deepest ideas and highest ideals. Even historic religion has always created its God conceptions out of its highest recognized values. Every intelligent creature gives the name of God to the best and highest thing he knows. *

103:0.1 (1129.1) ALL of man’s truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man’s first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man’s viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality. Subsequent to the bestowals of the Paradise Sons the liberated Spirit of Truth makes mighty contributions to the enlargement of the human capacity to perceive religious truths. As evolution advances on an inhabited world, the Thought Adjusters increasingly participate in the development of the higher types of human religious insight. The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties and divinities of limitless Deity, the Universal Father.

103:0.2 (1129.2) The religious tendencies of the human races are innate; they are universally manifested and have an apparently natural origin; primitive religions are always evolutionary in their genesis. As natural religious experience continues to progress, periodic revelations of truth punctuate the otherwise slow-moving course of planetary evolution.


103:2.8 (1131.7) When a moral being chooses to be unselfish when confronted by the urge to be selfish, that is primitive religious experience. No animal can make such a choice; such a decision is both human and religious. It embraces the fact of God-consciousness and exhibits the impulse of social service, the basis of the brotherhood of man. When mind chooses a right moral judgment by an act of the free will, such a decision constitutes a religious experience.



Me here: Again I suggest we reconsider our definitions of religious experience, faith, and eternal potential regarding the topic of survival to the Mansion Worlds!


8)


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a) fanofVan I disagree that choices become automated, or if that could ever be the case.

b) AgonDOnter, I do not think that Jim George has to follow every mannerism of Jesus in order for his point to be heard hahaha.


Also, Riktare has well-maintained his points why not consider him.

This topic includes how the human individual can identify with the grand universe as his home, and especially in Paradise. How the path of finalitorship is oppened up to each person through the equal opportunity program Thought Adjusters. How does a person find Paradise? And how does the inner character change, how does the adjutant cosmic forces develop so as to embrace the fused Adjuster spirit?

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to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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I've never claimed "automated" decisions but sufficient experiential wisdom for "reflexive" responses to situations and circumstances and that we have a religious life and growth that is unconcious... as well and in addition to consciously.

And thanks for rebutting yourself so well previously. Still no response to my rebuttal?


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fanofVan wrote:
5. The Supremacy of Purposive Potential

102:5.1 (1123.7) ... potential is always supreme over the actual. In the evolving cosmos the potential is what is to be, and what is to be is the unfolding of the purposive mandates of Deity.


That's an extremely powerful declaration. And one that probably has hardly been considered by the Earth's philosophers and religionists, at least framed in that exact way. But reconciling that with one's own immediate destiny may not be easy. Maybe if we invest more in what we are directed to believe is potential we will realize more of the Supreme.


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fanofVan wrote:
Makalu wrote:
This declaration of your Makalu presumes no soul growth or religious experience without "conscious spiritual choice"...only its birth.


8)


well yeah sure if you want to take it out of context and just forget the real topic and concentrate on twisting others words and obfuscating the issue and building your little strawman arguments....otherwise,no, it doesn't.

i'm declaring no transfer of identity without conscious choice...you're declaring no death without conscious choice.

we've done this dance before and the twain shall never meet


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Makalu,

I was blessed to have a sister for 52 years who was severely mentally ill. Sometimes she would spout off with amazing comments. As I have said previously, we were raised by atheist parents but she was vaguely aware of my religious interests. Once, in a very serious tone she said, "Jim, I think I might be a Catholic." I had to keep myself from laughing as I told her that we humans must decide these things, they don't just happen to us.

One of the issues so difficult to get across in the forums where contempt for that which is deeply stated but lightly considered is rampant is the contemplative effort one must apply to make these life altering decisions. Transferring the seat of our identity is an irrevocable personal choice to be Godlike. It may come with great personal anguish or it may happen as a culmination of intense searching and discovery, but it doesn't happen lightly. It is not a mere comprehension of a concept. When attempting to share these events, deeply personal events, with those who seek only conversational mastery, we are quite vulnerable. Oh well!

Brad and Agon,

My intent in posting here is to share the very real and personal efforts, decisions, conclusions, experiences and occasionally an opinion. It is not to obtain victory of the debate. Yes we are all climbing the mountain, but throwing rocks at each other doesn't help anyone. My hope here is that by being willing to open myself to your constant criticism some readers, seekers will also be inspired to take up the good fight. I have said and will say again, I am not living up to my full potential yet, but it isn't your job to challenge God's guidance of me on your own terms, even if you believe you understand the Urantia Book's explanation of an issue. Seeking common understanding brings unity, your incessant confrontations of those thoughts which represent another individual's deeper thoughts and feelings, don't.

Please!

Jim


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I want to just weigh in here. I have to agree with Jim George on the point, as over the past few days, I have witnessed so many combative exchanges...so much accusation and sarcasm with little attempt to truly understand. I will not name names, but maybe all of us can examine our past responses and see if that shoe fits.

I would hope that we all could agree that we are brothers and sisters - the family of God above all. We should not ever be attacking one another, as this seems to make the assumption that there are some of us here who are not trying to do the right thing.

Please, before attacking someone's heartfelt posts, add a little sweetness to your replies and try to understand, rather than accuse. As someone recently pointed out, this forum is viewed by more people than those who actually take part. If I was a new reader, I would be very reluctant to weigh in after reading some of these exchanges. Remember that one of the cardinal attributes of the Master was his sincere friendliness.


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