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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Makalu wrote:

right but something of at least one conscious spiritual choice is critical and the narrative for the path to salvation thats being presented on the internet to people who may, or may not, have even studied the papers is "follow the leadings of your thought adjuster" which nobody can really put their finger on and could mean a variety of nonspiritual things to people.


I am not posting here for the purpose of educating "people who may, or may not, have even studied the papers". This discussion group says, at the very top of every page "Urantia Book Discussion Board: Study Group". This is a discussion group for people who study the Urantia Book and it is assumed that folks reading here have at least some familiarity with the book.

While anyone is welcome to read and learn here, it is certainly not my responsibility as a member of this study group to tailor everything I write for the audience of folks who know nothing about TUB. If we all did that, this entire discussion group would be introductory material only.


well like it or not this forum gets far more readers than posters and the truth matters regardless


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fanofVan wrote:
I hope this helps Makalu....no one is saying no one needs to make conscious decisions....or that there is no awarenes or choice in the unconscious arena of mind. But there is a lot going on in mind that is not conscious mind...including faith and choice....and "following the leadings of your thought adjuster". Is the yearn within created by the TA a conscious and tangible thing? No. What is hope? What is happiness? Yearns and leadings!! One may not choose hope or just decide to be happy. There's far more to it than that!! We receive at the unconscious and superconscious levels and we may also respond at those levels...in addition to our conscious level.


Just sayin'..... 8)



smh @ another waste of bandwidth...i understand the terms in the UB btw. its not a question of conscious choice...its a question of conscious spiritual choice. tell me anything at all about the conscious spiritual choice you made during your penultimate soul birth experience.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
You are extremely judgmental of anyone who is so desperate and, in many cases ill (mentally or physically), as to choose the extremely undesirable, unpleasant, stigmatized and sad option of suicide.


If you say that then you misunderstand *royally*. In fact that statement is a judgement because you apparently have no idea where I am coming from and how I got here and what this all means and hence would rather project something on me that is not there. In fact I make no judgement whatsoever on a person who commits suicide. I am attempting, rather, to dig deep into what really is happening in their souls and minds and what that all means in the scheme of what the revelators tell us. This is done entirely dispassionately for education's sake.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Does *anyone* actually 'call upon the Lord' in their final moments?


Back to basics then... "Calling upon the Lord" is another way to say praying or conversing with God or the adjuster.


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fanofVan wrote:
Yes I do! Many minds reach out only in desperation...or extreme hope and need. You think such a decision iniquitous?


I agree, certainly there are some who do and doing so reflects the final Earthly state of their soul's attitude. In such a case, yes, I believe the person would survive (at least to make a more final decision later).


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By the way, "Superstar" is making a huge comeback in Britain, the U.S. and Holland this year.

The writers chose to portray the Master's life and final moments with a focus on Judas' perspective. Apparently he, the Pharisees and the crowds were not quite fully aware that they were "killing God", at least the material form of his direct representation, Michael the Creator Son. Somehow they may have felt a great danger in giving "God" more access to their minds and souls. They refused to grow and would rather choke off his influence on their lives.


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Makalu wrote:


smh @ another waste of bandwidth...i understand the terms in the UB btw. its not a question of conscious choice...its a question of conscious spiritual choice. tell me anything at all about the conscious spiritual choice you made during your penultimate soul birth experience.


Please define what you mean by "penultimate soul birth experience", with corroborating quotes from TUB.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Makalu wrote:


smh @ another waste of bandwidth...i understand the terms in the UB btw. its not a question of conscious choice...its a question of conscious spiritual choice. tell me anything at all about the conscious spiritual choice you made during your penultimate soul birth experience.


Please define what you mean by "penultimate soul birth experience", with corroborating quotes from TUB.


there is no such thing in the papers nor in anyones experience...thats the point...it was a jab


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Makalu wrote:


smh @ another waste of bandwidth...i understand the terms in the UB btw. its not a question of conscious choice...its a question of conscious spiritual choice. tell me anything at all about the conscious spiritual choice you made during your penultimate soul birth experience.


Please define what you mean by "penultimate soul birth experience", with corroborating quotes from TUB.


Yes please...not understanding...you mean the "next to last" soul birth experience? Huh?

Far as I know there is only one soul birth and I don't think it can be described as a "conscious spiritual choice" either. I think soul is born upon decisions that are reflexive, not specifically reflective or thoughtful. I think it's an expression of who we are and not what we think. It is a natural response to our nature and might be described as a tendancy of choice or a demonstration of motive that drives our choice(s) rather than some conscious and thoughtful and measured and considered coscious decision.

I think the UB teaches that nothing has been truly learned in our decisions, more decisions, and more decisions until it becomes an inherent response or relfex....the purpose of decisions is to grow beyond the point of decisions....we have already decided sufficietly for our motives and intentions and priorities to take over the deciding process...the weighing and measuring and assessing and situational analysis. Choosing becomes automatic and reflexive.


This happens incrementally and by aggregation over time....I think its part of experiential wisdom development. I also think it happens early in life before we become so distracted by and immersed in the material aspects of life. We do begin life developing an inner life and spirit nature. The spirit nature is not chosen or developed....it is inherent and hard wired in our being. We learn to respond to this intrinsic relationship within and that's why its called half of our dual "nature"....it is natural, normal, innate, inseparable, vital, and essential....we are but animals without the spirit nature.

We learn to respond to situations and circumstances and relationships by those meanings and values already discerned by prior choices. Or we respond to the Spirit ministries and our own spirit nature by the deepest and highest feelings and insights. Is spiritual insight a function of cognition, understanding, and consciousness? Or is insight something more? More. It is of, by, and from the Spirit.


Not only is mind conscious, unconscious, and superconscious...but then there is Spirit and spirit intuition and insight....this is not our conscious mind or a function of it....it is something else, something additional, another way of sorting, evaluating, and choosing to consider I think.

42:12.15 [Part II]
Mind universally dominates matter, even as it is in turn responsive to the ultimate overcontrol of spirit. And with mortal man, only that mind which freely submits itself to the spirit direction can hope to survive the mortal time-space existence as an immortal child of the eternal spirit world of the Supreme, the Ultimate, and the Absolute: the Infinite.

9:4.2 [Part I]
The absolute mind is the mind of the Third Person; it is inseparable from the personality of God the Spirit. Mind, in functioning beings, is not separated from energy or spirit, or both. Mind is not inherent in energy; energy is receptive and responsive to mind; mind can be superimposed upon energy, but consciousness is not inherent in the purely material level. Mind does not have to be added to pure spirit, for spirit is innately conscious and identifying. Spirit is always intelligent, minded in some way. It may be this mind or that mind, it may be premind or supermind, even spirit mind, but it does the equivalent of thinking and knowing. The insight of spirit transcends, supervenes, and theoretically antedates the consciousness of mind.


12:8.4 [Part I]
The bestowal of spirit and the spiritualization of personalities, the domain of spiritual gravity, is the realm of the Eternal Son. And this spirit gravity of the Son, ever drawing all spiritual realities to himself, is just as real and absolute as is the all-powerful material grasp of the Isle of Paradise. But material-minded man is naturally more familiar with the material manifestations of a physical nature than with the equally real and mighty operations of a spiritual nature which are discerned only by the spiritual insight of the soul.



8)

This is why the soul is born and the soul grows independent of cognitive consciousness...once born, the soul has its own volition cognition independent of and separate from the conscious mind....as multiple posted quotes describe and confirm.


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Makalu wrote:

there is no such thing in the papers nor in anyones experience...thats the point...it was a jab


This is a notable admission of lack of sincerity in your intent here. I take this to mean that your primary motive in posting here is to fight, hurt, and show dominance - never mind about what TUB says; you just want to WIN.

Perhaps this isn't the study group for you.


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FanofVan wrote: "This is why the soul is born and the soul grows independent of cognitive consciousness...once born, the soul has its own volition cognition independent of and separate from the conscious mind....as multiple posted quotes describe and confirm."

Well said; this is very clearly explained in TUB and as Bradly pointed out, every time any of us posts these truths, we corroborate them with quotes from TUB. I honestly don't understand how this is even a matter of debate.

Furthermore, any ideas about deathbed conversions as a requirement for salvation - "calling out to the Lord" in our last moments of life - are not supported by TUB.


Last edited by Agon D. Onter on Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:01 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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We often hear the slogan, WWJD, "what would Jesus do". This endless argument is unanswerable except by personal experience. But that does not mean to imply the attempted understanding of these things is an error. But we must referrance reality in it's most complete form. So I once again offer WWJ SAY? The following is an exact answer.
Quote:
166:3.1 As Jesus and the twelve visited with the messengers of the kingdom at Gerasa, one of the Pharisees who believed in him asked this question: “Lord, will there be few or many really saved?” And Jesus, answering, said:

166:3.2 “You have been taught that only the children of Abraham will be saved; that only the gentiles of adoption can hope for salvation.Some of you have reasoned that, since the Scripture record that only Caleb and Joshua from among all the hosts that went out of Egypt lived to enter the promised land, only a comparatively few of those who seek the kingdom of heaven shall find entrance thereto.

166:3.3 “You also have another saying among you, and one that contains much truth: That the way which leads to eternal life is straight and narrow, that the door which leads thereto is likewise narrow so that, of those who seek salvation, few can find entrance through this door. You also have a teaching that the way which leads to destruction is broad, that the entrance thereto is wide, and that there are many who choose to go this way. And this proverb is not without its meaning. But I declare that salvation is first a matter of your personal choosing. Even if the door to the way of life is narrow, it is wide enough to admit all who sincerely seek to enter, for I am that door. And the Son will never refuse entrance to any child of the universe who, by faith, seeks to find the Father through the Son.

166:3.4 “But herein is the danger to all who would postpone their entrance into the kingdom while they continue to pursue the pleasures of immaturity and indulge the satisfactions of selfishness: Having refused to enter the kingdom as a spiritual experience, they may subsequently seek entrance thereto when the glory of the better way becomes revealed in the age to come. And when, therefore, those who spurned the kingdom when I came in the likeness of humanity seek to find an entrance when it is revealed in the likeness of divinity, then will I say to all such selfish ones: I know not whence you are. You had your chance to prepare for this heavenly citizenship, but you refused all such proffers of mercy; you rejected all invitations to come while the door was open. Now, to you who have refused salvation, the door is shut. This door is not open to those who would enter the kingdom for selfish glory. Salvation is not for those who are unwilling to pay the price of wholehearted dedication to doing my Father's will. When in spirit and soul you have turned your backs upon the Father's kingdom, it is useless in mind and body to stand before this door and knock, saying, `Lord, open to us; we would also be great in the kingdom.' Then will I declare that you are not of my fold. I will not receive you to be among those who have fought the good fight of faith and won the reward of unselfish service in the kingdom on earth. And when you say, `Did we not eat and drink with you, and did you not teach in our streets?' then shall I again declare that you are spiritual strangers; that we were not fellow servants in the Father's ministry of mercy on earth; that I do not know you; and then shall the Judge of all the earth say to you: `Depart from us, all you who have taken delight in the works of iniquity.'

166:3.5 “But fear not; every one who sincerely desires to find eternal life by entrance into the kingdom of God shall certainly find such everlasting salvation. But you who refuse this salvation will some day see the prophets of the seed of Abraham sit down with the believers of the gentile nations in this glorified kingdom to partake of the bread of life and to refresh themselves with the water thereof. And they who shall thus take the kingdom in spiritual power and by the persistent assaults of living faith will come from the north and the south and from the east and the west. And, behold, many who are first will be last, and those who are last will many times be first.”


Bradley may be right but his comments don't effectively address all of what Jesus implies here. The other side of this has equal merit but it also doesn't address the entire issue.

My position is to default on deliberate and intentional spiritual choices to ensure my participation and to encourage others to do the same. I guess that position offends some. It doesn't offend God. It seems pretty plain that he expects all from us as the minimum requirement.

Jim


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Jim George wrote:
We often hear the slogan, WWJD, "what would Jesus do". This endless argument is unanswerable except by personal experience. But that does not mean to imply the attempted understanding of these things is an error. But we must referrance reality in it's most complete form. So I once again offer WWJ SAY? The following is an exact answer.
Quote:
166:3.1 As Jesus and the twelve visited with the messengers of the kingdom at Gerasa, one of the Pharisees who believed in him asked this question: “Lord, will there be few or many really saved?” And Jesus, answering, said:

166:3.2 “You have been taught that only the children of Abraham will be saved; that only the gentiles of adoption can hope for salvation.Some of you have reasoned that, since the Scripture record that only Caleb and Joshua from among all the hosts that went out of Egypt lived to enter the promised land, only a comparatively few of those who seek the kingdom of heaven shall find entrance thereto.

166:3.3 “You also have another saying among you, and one that contains much truth: That the way which leads to eternal life is straight and narrow, that the door which leads thereto is likewise narrow so that, of those who seek salvation, few can find entrance through this door. You also have a teaching that the way which leads to destruction is broad, that the entrance thereto is wide, and that there are many who choose to go this way. And this proverb is not without its meaning. But I declare that salvation is first a matter of your personal choosing. Even if the door to the way of life is narrow, it is wide enough to admit all who sincerely seek to enter, for I am that door. And the Son will never refuse entrance to any child of the universe who, by faith, seeks to find the Father through the Son.

166:3.4 “But herein is the danger to all who would postpone their entrance into the kingdom while they continue to pursue the pleasures of immaturity and indulge the satisfactions of selfishness: Having refused to enter the kingdom as a spiritual experience, they may subsequently seek entrance thereto when the glory of the better way becomes revealed in the age to come. And when, therefore, those who spurned the kingdom when I came in the likeness of humanity seek to find an entrance when it is revealed in the likeness of divinity, then will I say to all such selfish ones: I know not whence you are. You had your chance to prepare for this heavenly citizenship, but you refused all such proffers of mercy; you rejected all invitations to come while the door was open. Now, to you who have refused salvation, the door is shut. This door is not open to those who would enter the kingdom for selfish glory. Salvation is not for those who are unwilling to pay the price of wholehearted dedication to doing my Father's will. When in spirit and soul you have turned your backs upon the Father's kingdom, it is useless in mind and body to stand before this door and knock, saying, `Lord, open to us; we would also be great in the kingdom.' Then will I declare that you are not of my fold. I will not receive you to be among those who have fought the good fight of faith and won the reward of unselfish service in the kingdom on earth. And when you say, `Did we not eat and drink with you, and did you not teach in our streets?' then shall I again declare that you are spiritual strangers; that we were not fellow servants in the Father's ministry of mercy on earth; that I do not know you; and then shall the Judge of all the earth say to you: `Depart from us, all you who have taken delight in the works of iniquity.'

166:3.5 “But fear not; every one who sincerely desires to find eternal life by entrance into the kingdom of God shall certainly find such everlasting salvation. But you who refuse this salvation will some day see the prophets of the seed of Abraham sit down with the believers of the gentile nations in this glorified kingdom to partake of the bread of life and to refresh themselves with the water thereof. And they who shall thus take the kingdom in spiritual power and by the persistent assaults of living faith will come from the north and the south and from the east and the west. And, behold, many who are first will be last, and those who are last will many times be first.”


Bradley may be right but his comments don't effectively address all of what Jesus implies here. The other side of this has equal merit but it also doesn't address the entire issue.

My position is to default on deliberate and intentional spiritual choices to ensure my participation and to encourage others to do the same. I guess that position offends some. It doesn't offend God. It seems pretty plain that he expects all from us as the minimum requirement.

Jim



I don't know of anyone here who thinks or has said anything to make you "...guess that position offends some." Not the point or the subject Jim. Everyone here is in total agreement that "deliberate and intentional spiritual choices" are desirable, recommended, fruitful, and required for completion of the Circles and fusion. Who has said anything else...or less?


The subject at hand however is NOT that which is required for fusion and eternal destiny realization Jim...it's about the claims of some here that the survival of death and arrival on the Mansion Worlds requires a cognitive and deliberate and conscious choice to be born again; and also the claim that oblivion awaits those souls who by ignorance, doubt, fear, materialisms, age, immaturity, confusion, and/or wrong beliefs or lack of beliefs, do not consciously decide and declare conversion to God; and some have even declared that any who commit suicide are unworthy of soul survival and perish by such a choice. nod/enno has even declared that if anyone does not consciously make such a decision that they not only perish but also kill God thusly ( :roll: - yeah, I know, right?). These claims include the conclusion/result that soul can be born and then destroyed or perish in this life by a lack of some ill defined but conscious conversion and commitment moment. How very Judaic and Christian don't you think?

That's the discussion Jim....not the ideal progression of soul to fusion. No one disputes that Jim.

Now....I do wonder about the term "spiritual choice" you use above. For such choices come in multiple forms I think - conscious and unconscious and superconscious. The argument by some here appears to be that ONLY conscious choices matter or grow soul or deliver spiritualization sufficient for and worthy of soul survival. Agon D. Onter and I believe, and have posted many quotes from the UB in support of our understanding, that the inherent spirit nature of our dual nature may ALSO and INHERENTLY exhibit volition and decision and do so WITHOUT the conscious mind. Agon and I have not said it is only one way or the other....but that it works BOTH ways.


So I find your use of "spiritual choice" interesting indeed. And I wonder if you'd care to comment on "spiritual insight" as a functional aspect of our self and being and growth...and its source. It is not our material and deciding conscious mind which survives this life and world...it is the soul. Perhaps you might join the conversation and topic and tell us your thoughts on how soul grows and if soul survives who's associated material mind has not yet been born again and consciously committed to a nature, reality, and destiny that said mind has no true knowledge, understanding, or realization of.


You declared earlier (and I completely agree) that only faith is required for salvation/survival. I think we also agree that faith and salvation is not dependent upon specific knowledge or ceremonies or declarations or beliefs? And that faith is a vital and functional and saving force for even those without knowledge or with false beliefs? Surely, do we all agree here on what is required for eternal life and fusion Jim and that which is ideal is growth and progress and spiritization and realization of potential and the teachings of the Master in that regard....but how do you stand on the actual question under discussion?

We all know that children and primitives can give birth to soul. Can a soul, once given birth and life, be destroyed by a mind that does NOT do or decide something I wonder? Or does the UB teach that a soul is provided time, patience, mercy ministry, love, education, and experience on the Mansion Worlds until such time that the soul itself, morontia mind, decides upon self destruction by the deliberative and conscious decision to reject reality, mercy, and love? How is a soul, once born, then destroyed Jim? What does the UB teach us about the destruction of personal potential and soul?

:idea: :?: 8)


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Brad,

I don't have an opinion on these issues because I find my opinions to be a distraction in my quest to discover God personally. He has made it clear to me that my opinions have no value in my learning to conform my will to his. He seeks my commitment not my opinion. So I share my commitment and generally refuse to voice my opinions.

I see personal opinions as impediments to spiritual growth and I fully believe that is what the book teaches.

So, no, I won't join the conversation more than I have, unless so guided by God.

Jim


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Jim George wrote:
Brad,

I don't have an opinion on these issues because I find my opinions to be a distraction in my quest to discover God personally. He has made it clear to me that my opinions have no value in my learning to conform my will to his. He seeks my commitment not my opinion. So I share my commitment and generally refuse to voice my opinions.

I see personal opinions as impediments to spiritual growth and I fully believe that is what the book teaches.

...

Jim


Hmmmm.

Jim George wrote:

What I wrote regarding the purpose of the Urantia Book is my opinion
.....

Jim


Quote:
Well, that simply is not true. The difference between me and you is that I think personal religious experience is personal. I consider my personal relationship with God to be sacred, intimate and inviolate. To parade it around would be to debase it, in my opinion.

...

Jim


Jim George[/url] wrote:
....

I am of the opinion that one of the reasons many of us enjoy reading Part 4 so much is because of the intellectual and spiritual similarity we sense to the Midwayers. ...

Jim


Oh, and don't forget the one you posted right here in this very thread:

Jim George wrote:

...
This is not simply my opinion, but it is my limited understanding gleaned from practicing this process for nearly 50 years.
...

Jim


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