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(153:4.3) You compel me to declare that he who is not with me is against me, while he who gathers not with me scatters abroad.

What did Jesus mean when he said this exactly?

Isn't it significant that there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room here. No gray area. You're either with him, or you're not.

Is this the great demarcation?

Is this the ultimate purpose for the mortal life, to differentiate between the two?

Fortunately, no man can judge another but is the time allotted for the initial human life enough time for a person to distinguish himself by what he chooses to do and how he chooses to think about it?

If a mortal person marks time his whole life and sets himself off as doing everything possible to AVOID making the commitment to be "with him," does that mean he is "against him?"

Will more time, if provided after the resurrection, change things? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

Or is that the real purpose of time in the mortal life? More than enough time to choose.

Is there anything else?


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Hi Enno,

nodAmanaV wrote:
Isn't it significant that there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room here. No gray area. You're either with him, or you're not.


That's right, I think. No gray area exist that is safe for the ambivalent soul. One decides to sit at the right hand of The Father and accept sonship or one does not.

We cannot do the Will of God unless we are the Will of God. We must be His will in order to do His will.


Louis


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So, the child of an agnostic, growing up in a materialistic age and never encountering a religious thought worthy of mention is already dead?


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(151:1.2) "A sower went forth to sow, and it came to pass as he sowed that some seed fell by the wayside to be trodden underfoot and devoured by the birds of heaven. Other seed fell upon the rocky places where there was little earth, and immediately it sprang up because there was no depth to the soil, but as soon as the sun shone, it withered because it had no root whereby to secure moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns, and as the thorns grew up, it was choked so that it yielded no grain. Still other seed fell upon good ground and, growing, yielded, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, and some a hundredfold." And when he had finished speaking this parable, he said to the multitude, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


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Come on engineer Al, you can tackle this statement by Jesus with more sincerity than with this near cliché.

Nod is asking for insight from you. His questions are sound. We all know what the records of Jesus' teachings are and that some of them seem to fly in the face of the fairness doctrines of political thinking. So what is really at stake? Is the path to a true spiritual vision of reality a mountain of personal overcoming we each must ascend or is it an escalator we get to ride on?

I don't know how what one believes has much value in whether or not the decisions to seek God or not are made in the affirmative. Remember we all have Thought Adjusters after about age 6, and recognition of his guidance is absolutely personal and deliberate. . .or it is not. Excuses are only excuses.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
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(153:4.3) You compel me to declare that he who is not with me is against me, while he who gathers not with me scatters abroad.

What did Jesus mean when he said this exactly?

Isn't it significant that there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room here. No gray area. You're either with him, or you're not.

Is this the great demarcation?

Is this the ultimate purpose for the mortal life, to differentiate between the two?

Fortunately, no man can judge another but is the time allotted for the initial human life enough time for a person to distinguish himself by what he chooses to do and how he chooses to think about it?

If a mortal person marks time his whole life and sets himself off as doing everything possible to AVOID making the commitment to be "with him," does that mean he is "against him?"

Will more time, if provided after the resurrection, change things? Somehow, I find that hard to believe.

Or is that the real purpose of time in the mortal life? More than enough time to choose.

Is there anything else?


Greetings nod...and all!! I look forward to the discussion. Before I add my voice (and some related text) to the question posed, I have a favor to ask of you nod. It would be appreciated if when you snip a sentence from within a longer quote, that you indicate that someway as the text you posted has no context and appears to be a complete thought....and it's not. For example, if I were to snip a line from the quote below, you might indicate the text before and/or after with......

159:2.1 (1764.3) "....My son, in matters of this sort it would be better for you to reckon that he who is not against us is for us...."

I think it important in all text to consider the context of the quote/teaching. In the case of the teachings of the Master, we are told to consider the audience as well as the situation/circumstance. Abbreviated snips do not serve such an important consideration of context IMO...unless it is indicated as partial and incomplete text posted to send the student into the Papers for further information. Thank you nod for consideration of this request! = )

So...we begin with apparent paradox. Jesus made both statements. If, as toto and you declare, there is no gray area and you're either for him or against him, then please explain this inexplicable contradiction.

As to your question: "Is this the ultimate purpose for the mortal life, to differentiate between the two?"

I thought the ultimate purpose for the mortal life was personal transformation by transferring the seat of our own identity from the material nature to the spiritual nature as dual natured beings. Is it up to me or you to "differentiate" who's who and who's doing what and who's not? No...I don't believe so, no. Or not to or for others anyway. We are to recognize and respond to the Spirit within, true. Is that the differentiation you mean?....the lure of the spirit within to transform our own life and experience?

But what does it matter to me who else responds or how or how much or how soon? Is not the Son's Spirit and the Father Fragment within each of us all those who are truly tasked with the differentiation of believers and non-believers? Is it not those same Spirits who will measure the flicker and make the judgements to come? What has any mortal believer to do with that business? Did Jesus say he is more interested in finding and returning the one lost? ....or the 99 who are not? I think perhaps the power, purpose, plan, love of God as expressed and administered by The Sons and The Most Highs and the Mother Spirit and the Father Fragments might be entrusted by us in the execution of the plan of ascendency and survival of mortals in time and space....regardless of the Mortal Epoch or primitive or lagging responses to all these mind ministries to create and fan the flame of the flicker!!

It's an interesting opinion that you find it hard to believe that survivors who awaken on the Mansion Worlds would not be more responsive to reality when finally in the presence of reality in all its glorious forms. Do you not think that during the Mortal Epochs of Light and Life that the example and demonstration of reality does not make the reality-response more easily and eagerly embraced by mortals? Why then are there agondonters if there is not difference to the religious experience of the mortal/tadpole? I am reminded of the near-endless mercy credits and how reflectivity measures well the circumstances, situations, impediments, obstacles, and many material gravity distortions in all and every mind.

Which brings me to the quote you posted and the context in which it was made. Paper 153 is a very important moment in the Master's ministry. The king crowning incident. The spies of the priests on the hunt for blood. The approach of the transfiguration and the end of Jesus/Michael's time on earth...when the Apostles must be weaned from the earthly kingdom and the right hand of the crown. On this day, the Apostles had never been so downcast and confused. When one puts the statement/quote (incomplete quote) posted by nod into situational context, perhaps its meaning might become clearer?

Jesus is speaking to the priests trying to entrap him at this moment...his words are to the Jewish religious leaders who are strangling the believers and faithful. He, from this very moment forward, was poking the bear in the eye!!!! He was defying them with gusto and purpose. Indeed, he drew the first line of "demarcation" as nod puts it. But it was a very specific line for a very specific audience....or so one would notice if the entirety of the story was included in the post and the query.

And Al....I think you are right on point. Did Jesus condemn the 5000 who withdrew when there was no more free fish and bread? No. But he did use that as a teaching moment for his Apostles and disciples. A very pertinent question you raise indeed.

The fact is there are many ways the mortal mind connects to and responds to the Adjutants and primitives before the release of the Son's Spirit and the Father Fragments and children under 6 today still have a recognition of and response to the Holy Spirit and Adjutants. How did Andon and Fonta receive TA's and survive? Did they hear the words of their Creator Son? Did they have a bible or a UB? No. We are too ignorant, blind, and immature to try and determine who is responding to the Spirit. I find it a rather tiresome and repetitive exercise by some believers to determine and declare the spiritual status of any other tadpoles. Kind of amusing in the waste of time category I suppose. Who is blinder? Me or you? And why is that important to either one of us? Isn't my spiritual journey mine and yours yours? Yes, I think so.

So...what is it you are trying to determine or measure here Enno?

Now, to consider the 'apparent' contradiction (the solution of which lies within the situational context):

153:4.2 (1714.1) When the people marveled, one of the Pharisees stood up and charged that Jesus could do these things because he was in league with devils; that he admitted in the language which he employed in casting out this devil that they were known to each other; and he went on to state that the religious teachers and leaders at Jerusalem had decided that Jesus did all his so-called miracles by the power of Beelzebub, the prince of devils. Said the Pharisee: “Have nothing to do with this man; he is in partnership with Satan.”

153:4.3 (1714.2) Then said Jesus: “How can Satan cast out Satan? A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand; if a house be divided against itself, it is soon brought to desolation. Can a city withstand a siege if it is not united? If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? But you should know that no one can enter into the house of a strong man and despoil his goods except he first overpower and bind that strong man. And so, if I by the power of Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I, by the spirit of God, cast out devils, then has the kingdom of God truly come upon you. If you were not blinded by prejudice and misled by fear and pride, you would easily perceive that one who is greater than devils stands in your midst. [i]You compel me to declare that he who is not with me is against me, while he who gathers not with me scatters abroad.[/i] Let me utter a solemn warning to you who would presume, with your eyes open and with premeditated malice, knowingly to ascribe the works of God to the doings of devils! Verily, verily, I say to you, all your sins shall be forgiven, even all of your blasphemies, but whosoever shall blaspheme against God with deliberation and wicked intention shall never obtain forgiveness. Since such persistent workers of iniquity will never seek nor receive forgiveness, they are guilty of the sin of eternally rejecting divine forgiveness.

153:4.4 (1714.3) “Many of you have this day come to the parting of the ways; you have come to a beginning of the making of the inevitable choice between the will of the Father and the self-chosen ways of darkness. And as you now choose, so shall you eventually be. You must either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else will the tree become corrupt and its fruit corrupt. I declare that in my Father’s eternal kingdom the tree is known by its fruits. But some of you who are as vipers, how can you, having already chosen evil, bring forth good fruits? After all, out of the abundance of the evil in your hearts your mouths speak.”

A few weeks later:


159:2.1 (1764.3) Jesus went over to Gamala to visit John and those who worked with him at that place. That evening, after the session of questions and answers, John said to Jesus: “Master, yesterday I went over to Ashtaroth to see a man who was teaching in your name and even claiming to be able to cast out devils. Now this fellow had never been with us, neither does he follow after us; therefore I forbade him to do such things.” Then said Jesus: “Forbid him not. Do you not perceive that this gospel of the kingdom shall presently be proclaimed in all the world? How can you expect that all who will believe the gospel shall be subject to your direction? Rejoice that already our teaching has begun to manifest itself beyond the bounds of our personal influence. Do you not see, John, that those who profess to do great works in my name must eventually support our cause? They certainly will not be quick to speak evil of me. My son, in matters of this sort it would be better for you to reckon that he who is not against us is for us. In the generations to come many who are not wholly worthy will do many strange things in my name, but I will not forbid them. I tell you that, even when a cup of cold water is given to a thirsty soul, the Father’s messengers shall ever make record of such a service of love.”

159:2.2 (1764.4) This instruction greatly perplexed John. Had he not heard the Master say, “He who is not with me is against me”? And he did not perceive that in this case Jesus was referring to man’s personal relation to the spiritual teachings of the kingdom, while in the other case reference was made to the outward and far-flung social relations of believers regarding the questions of administrative control and the jurisdiction of one group of believers over the work of other groups which would eventually compose the forthcoming world-wide brotherhood.

Perhaps Enno, the answer to your question was given by Jesus himself?

:wink: 8)


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Jim....here we are again. You call Al less than sincere? And his point irrelevant?

What is "political thinking"? Is the Spirit led life such a "mountain of personal overcoming"? And who's making "excuses"?

Who is 'saved' among us? How is that determined? Who determines the flicker and the tadpole's circle progress in the Spirit?

What are others to do to be saved? Who says so?

Can those who do not declare beliefs still have and demonstrate faith?

What of those without knowledge or belief but still feel love and serve others in love? Are they spirit-responsive?

How about those primitive ones who first respond to the spirit with awe and fear and make totems of nature to represent the Great Spirit? Paper 85 is an excellent resource to consider when pondering what is a religious life and response to spirit?

85:0.2 (944.2) In the evolution of the human species, worship in its primitive manifestations appears long before the mind of man is capable of formulating the more complex concepts of life now and in the hereafter which deserve to be called religion. Early religion was wholly intellectual in nature and was entirely predicated on associational circumstances. The objects of worship were altogether suggestive; they consisted of the things of nature which were close at hand, or which loomed large in the commonplace experience of the simple-minded primitive Urantians.

85:0.3 (944.3) When religion once evolved beyond nature worship, it acquired roots of spirit origin but was nevertheless always conditioned by the social environment. As nature worship developed, man’s concepts envisioned a division of labor in the supermortal world; there were nature spirits for lakes, trees, waterfalls, rain, and hundreds of other ordinary terrestrial phenomena.

85:0.4 (944.4) At one time or another mortal man has worshiped everything on the face of the earth, including himself. He has also worshiped about everything imaginable in the sky and beneath the surface of the earth. Primitive man feared all manifestations of power; he worshiped every natural phenomenon he could not comprehend. The observation of powerful natural forces, such as storms, floods, earthquakes, landslides, volcanoes, fire, heat, and cold, greatly impressed the expanding mind of man. The inexplicable things of life are still termed “acts of God” and “mysterious dispensations of Providence.”

7. The Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom

85:7.1 (948.6) Nature worship may seem to have arisen naturally and spontaneously in the minds of primitive men and women, and so it did; but there was operating all this time in these same primitive minds the sixth adjutant spirit, which had been bestowed upon these peoples as a directing influence of this phase of human evolution. And this spirit was constantly stimulating the worship urge of the human species, no matter how primitive its first manifestations might be. The spirit of worship gave definite origin to the human impulse to worship, notwithstanding that animal fear motivated the expression of worshipfulness, and that its early practice became centered upon objects of nature.

85:7.2 (948.7) You must remember that feeling, not thinking, was the guiding and controlling influence in all evolutionary development. To the primitive mind there is little difference between fearing, shunning, honoring, and worshiping.

85:7.3 (948.8) When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom — meditative and experiential thinking — it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion. When the seventh adjutant spirit, the spirit of wisdom, achieves effective ministration, then in worship man begins to turn away from nature and natural objects to the God of nature and to the eternal Creator of all things natural.

Me here: Note the phrase... "...begins to develop..." and "...begins to turn away from..." How enlightened I wonder is our own religious life? How much knowledge, faith, understanding, wisdom, and experience do us tadpoles have? Some seem to think their perspective and experience to be superior to that of others. A rather puffed up example of self importance perhaps?

Worship and religion and faith are words with a wide spectrum of truth content, experience, and expression within each mortal mind. Do some of us think it is to be the same for all? Is Jim's experience and expression more important that anyone else's? Is mine? Which tadpole among us is wise enough and experienced enough to even begin to measure or determine or validate or invalidate another's religious life and flicker?

All asked in good humor and anticipation of further discussion. Thanks again Enno for the question. 8)


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alwilliams767 wrote:
So, the child of an agnostic, growing up in a materialistic age and never encountering a religious thought worthy of mention is already dead?


I can believe that a child can grow up with agnostic parents in a materialistic age, but it is impossible to escape a religious thought. God knocks at our door. We decide whether or not to open it.


fanofVan wrote:
Jim....here we are again. You call Al less than sincere? And his point irrelevant?



fanofVan wrote:
Some seem to think their perspective and experience to be superior to that of others. A rather puffed up example of self importance perhaps?


Are you calling Jim less than sincere? Your comment to Jim was not in the form of a question. Just putting a question mark at the end will not turn a declarative statement into a question.


fanofVan wrote:
All asked in good humor and anticipation of further discussion.


This is a great disclaimer! Do I have your permission to use it here or in the future?


fanofVan wrote:
So...we begin with apparent paradox. Jesus made both statements. If, as toto and you declare, there is no gray area and you're either for him or against him, then please explain this inexplicable contradiction.


If you see an arrow on end, can you tell if it coming towards you or away from you? If you shot the arrow from your bow, you would know. If you do not have a bow in hand, you would also know. So why are these two statement from Jesus an inexplicable contradiction? If you have doubts, you are either the perpetrator or you are the victim.

What Jesus is saying is to give our brothers the benefit of the doubt. Do not be the perpetrator nor the victim.


fanofVan wrote:
Which tadpole among us is wise enough and experienced enough to even begin to measure or determine or validate or invalidate another's religious life and flicker?


I would prefer that you do not refer to us a tadpoles. I am not a metaphor. We are the Will of God. The Will of God deserves more respect than slimy creatures in a puddle.


Louis


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nodAmanaV wrote:
(151:1.2) "A sower went forth to sow, and it came to pass as he sowed that some seed fell by the wayside to be trodden underfoot and devoured by the birds of heaven. Other seed fell upon the rocky places where there was little earth, and immediately it sprang up because there was no depth to the soil, but as soon as the sun shone, it withered because it had no root whereby to secure moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns, and as the thorns grew up, it was choked so that it yielded no grain. Still other seed fell upon good ground and, growing, yielded, some thirtyfold, some sixtyfold, and some a hundredfold." And when he had finished speaking this parable, he said to the multitude, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


I wonder Enno how you interpret this parable? And how does it relate to your initial post?

Again, the answer is provided in the text, same Paper, same page as the parable itself. The answer does go directly to your original snipit of text when the fuller text from 153 is considered.

The answer has nothing to do with the seed but with the experience of the sower. The feeding of the 5000 which resulted in the king making episode and led to the quote (snipit of a quote actually) you first posted. It is the lesson that we must not become too entangled or dependent upon the results of our seed sowing. We are not to pre-determine who is worthy or unworthy for our loving service. We are to remember that the act is ours, but the outcomes of our acts are God's to manage and determine. It is not the sower's business (in the parable) to measure the 'ground' or its fertility or what happens upon the sowing. That seed sown by the sower which finds fertile soil will return 30-100 fold the seed so sown there.

All the Apostles spent considerable time discussing and debating the parable of the sower. And it has nothing to do with the seed sown or the ground but it is about the experience of the sower.

151:2.6 (1691.1) The words which Thomas spoke had a quieting effect on all of them. He caused them to recall what Jesus had taught them on former occasions, and before Jesus resumed speaking, Andrew arose, saying: “I am persuaded that Thomas is right, and I would like to have him tell us what meaning he attaches to the parable of the sower.” After Jesus had beckoned Thomas to speak, he said: “My brethren, I did not wish to prolong this discussion, but if you so desire, I will say that I think this parable was spoken to teach us one great truth. And that is that our teaching of the gospel of the kingdom, no matter how faithfully and efficiently we execute our divine commissions, is going to be attended by varying degrees of success; and that all such differences in results are directly due to conditions inherent in the circumstances of our ministry, conditions over which we have little or no control.”

151:2.7 (1691.2) When Thomas had finished speaking, the majority of his fellow preachers were about ready to agree with him, even Peter and Nathaniel were on their way over to speak with him, when Jesus arose and said: “Well done, Thomas; you have discerned the true meaning of parables; but both Peter and Nathaniel have done you all equal good in that they have so fully shown the danger of undertaking to make an allegory out of my parables. In your own hearts you may often profitably engage in such flights of the speculative imagination, but you make a mistake when you seek to offer such conclusions as a part of your public teaching.”

One of the seeds sown by Jesus in Paper 151 came soon after the parable of the sower was given and discussed. The healing of the Kheresa Lunatic - Amos.

151:6.5 (1696.3) Jesus, looking down upon the man crouching like an animal at his feet, reached down and, taking him by the hand, stood him up and said to him: “Amos, you are not possessed of a devil; you have already heard the good news that you are a son of God. I command you to come out of this spell.” And when Amos heard Jesus speak these words, there occurred such a transformation in his intellect that he was immediately restored to his right mind and the normal control of his emotions. By this time a considerable crowd had assembled from the near-by village, and these people, augmented by the swine herders from the highland above them, were astonished to see the lunatic sitting with Jesus and his followers, in possession of his right mind and freely conversing with them.

That little seed sprouted immediately to cause this harvest:

151:6.6 (1696.4) As the swine herders rushed into the village to spread the news of the taming of the lunatic, the dogs charged upon a small and untended herd of about thirty swine and drove most of them over a precipice into the sea. And it was this incidental occurrence, in connection with the presence of Jesus and the supposed miraculous curing of the lunatic, that gave origin to the legend that Jesus had cured Amos by casting a legion of devils out of him, and that these devils had entered into the herd of swine, causing them forthwith to rush headlong to their destruction in the sea below. Before the day was over, this episode was published abroad by the swine tenders, and the whole village believed it. Amos most certainly believed this story; he saw the swine tumbling over the brow of the hill shortly after his troubled mind had quieted down, and he always believed that they carried with them the very evil spirits which had so long tormented and afflicted him. And this had a good deal to do with the permanency of his cure. It is equally true that all of Jesus’ apostles (save Thomas) believed that the episode of the swine was directly connected with the cure of Amos.

And that seed sown delivered further seeds sown:

151:6.8 (1697.1) As they were about to depart, Amos besought Jesus to permit him to go back with them, but the Master would not consent. Said Jesus to Amos: “Forget not that you are a son of God. Return to your own people and show them what great things God has done for you.” And Amos went about publishing that Jesus had cast a legion of devils out of his troubled soul, and that these evil spirits had entered into a herd of swine, driving them to quick destruction. And he did not stop until he had gone into all the cities of the Decapolis, declaring what great things Jesus had done for him.

And what did the seed sown deliver? The Crisis at Capernaum where the 5000 were fed and disappointed and the Apostles were stunned. That too was a parable for the Apostles related to the sower and the seed. The story of the 5000 becoming the 500 who overcame their disappointments is Paper 152 (parable is Paper 151) and Paper 153 is where Jesus squared off with the Priests (Enno's original text snipit)....another layer to the tale of the sower.

152:0.1 (1698.1) THE story of the cure of Amos, the Kheresa lunatic, had already reached Bethsaida and Capernaum, so that a great crowd was waiting for Jesus when his boat landed that Tuesday forenoon. Among this throng were the new observers from the Jerusalem Sanhedrin who had come down to Capernaum to find cause for the Master’s apprehension and conviction. As Jesus spoke with those who had assembled to greet him, Jairus, one of the rulers of the synagogue, made his way through the crowd and, falling down at his feet, took him by the hand and besought that he would hasten away with him, saying: “Master, my little daughter, an only child, lies in my home at the point of death. I pray that you will come and heal her.” When Jesus heard the request of this father, he said: “I will go with you.”

Now he cures Veronica and then the daughter of Jairus and then chased across the lake by the 5000 hungry souls (and bellies).

So many seeds sown upon so much ground!!

So...Jesus is being watched and baited but does he back down? Heck no.

152:5.6 (1704.5) The news of the feeding of the five thousand and the attempt to make Jesus king aroused widespread curiosity and stirred up the fears of both the religious leaders and the civil rulers throughout all Galilee and Judea. While this great miracle did nothing to further the gospel of the kingdom in the souls of material-minded and halfhearted believers, it did serve the purpose of bringing to a head the miracle-seeking and king-craving proclivities of Jesus’ immediate family of apostles and close disciples. This spectacular episode brought an end to the early era of teaching, training, and healing, thereby preparing the way for the inauguration of this last year of proclaiming the higher and more spiritual phases of the new gospel of the kingdom — divine sonship, spiritual liberty, and eternal salvation.

And now begins the final mortal year for the creator of a universe.......

And now Jesus declares that he who is not against us is for us....... :idea: :wink:

By the way, one of the seeds sown by Amos was the Strange Preacher:

159:2.4 (1765.2) This man whom John forbade to teach and work in Jesus’ name did not heed the apostle’s injunction. He went right on with his efforts and raised up a considerable company of believers at Kanata before going on into Mesopotamia. This man, Aden, had been led to believe in Jesus through the testimony of the demented man whom Jesus healed near Kheresa, and who so confidently believed that the supposed evil spirits which the Master cast out of him entered the herd of swine and rushed them headlong over the cliff to their destruction.

Funny how the seed sowing goes!! :biggrin:


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toto wrote:

fanofVan wrote:
Jim....here we are again. You call Al less than sincere? And his point irrelevant?



fanofVan wrote:
Some seem to think their perspective and experience to be superior to that of others. A rather puffed up example of self importance perhaps?


Are you calling Jim less than sincere? Your comment to Jim was not in the form of a question. Just putting a question mark at the end will not turn a declarative statement into a question.


Louis



So Louis...and Mannie/loucol/JohnnyBones/toto, and the rest of your ankle biting pack....you do not choose to challenge Jim when he claims Al to be insincere? Why so?

Jim says: "Come on engineer Al, you can tackle this statement by Jesus with more sincerity than with this near cliché."

Hypocritical of you, don't you think? Makes your comments (endless comments) about me very personal, don't you think?

Actually, I asked Jim 10 pertinent questions related to the topic and his post. And then wrote this paragraph which was not directed at Jim at all. Someone could use some improved reading and comprehension skills perhaps? (Yes, that was directed at you Louis, toto, Mannie, loucol, JohnnyBones, and gang!)

From my earlier post: "Me here: Note the phrase... "...begins to develop..." and "...begins to turn away from..." How enlightened I wonder is our own religious life? How much knowledge, faith, understanding, wisdom, and experience do us tadpoles have? Some seem to think their perspective and experience to be superior to that of others. A rather puffed up example of self importance perhaps?"


My "puffed up" comment was directed at any and all who think they can measure another or tell another what to do and was not directed at Jim personally....it was a class indictment of whoever fits the class. Another example of taking words out of context for one's inaccurate, if laser like focus....or miss-focus.

Call yourself whatever you want Louis...I'm sure you consider yourself far more special than a tadpole. Yes indeed I do.

:roll:

So this is how you choose to 'contribute' to such an interesting topic? How do you reconcile the two comments by Jesus, that he who is not with us....and then the he who is not against us?

Use your brain....and let go of my ankle and stop your yap, yap, yapping.....toto.

So you're the will of God huh? So you don't know what the will of God is or means then. And your personal attacks, yapping and ankle biting endlessly, are a fine example of that I suppose? Back off Louis....looking to get kicked off here for the 4th time are you....such an example of God's will, you can't maintain a name more than a few weeks.

Not a tadpole, eh? You sure ain't no frog dude. :wink:

Tell you what....suppose we make a deal? I don't comment on your posts....and you return the favor? I don't quote you or respond to you and you extend the same courtesy? It is distracting to the actual conversation. And, personally, I really like this topic and find value in its consideration. But I'll not be hounded....by a pup. Just sayin'.................

:wink:


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:51 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
So Louis...and Mannie/loucol/JohnnyBones, and the rest of your ankle biting pack....you do not choose to challenge Jim when he claims Al to be insincere? Why so?


Jim did not question Al's sincerely, he ask for more of it.

Jim George wrote:
Come on engineer Al, you can tackle this statement by Jesus with more sincerity than with this near cliché.


Do not ask me to bear false witness against a brother.


fanofVan wrote:
Hypocritical of you, don't you think? Makes your comments (endless comments) about me very personal, don't you think?


fanofVan wrote:
All asked in good humor and anticipation of further discussion.


Do you want to discuss this further?


fanofVan wrote:
So Louis...and Mannie/loucol/JohnnyBones, and the rest of your ankle biting pack....you do not choose to challenge Jim when he claims Al to be insincere? Why so?


fanofVan wrote:
My "puffed up" comment was directed at any and all who think they can measure another or tell another what to do and was not directed at Jim personally....it was a class indictment of whoever fits the class.


Are you trying to tell me to challenge Jim?

fanofVan wrote:
Use your brain....and let go of my ankle and stop your yap, yap, yapping.


Are you telling me what to do? Does the shoe fit you?


fanofVan wrote:
Call yourself whatever you want Louis...I'm sure you consider yourself far more special than a tadpole. Yes indeed I do.


I'm sure God loves me more than a tadpole. Yes indeed I do.


fanofVan wrote:
So this is how you choose to 'contribute' to such an interesting topic? How do you reconcile the two comments by Jesus, that he who is not with us....and then the he who is not against us?


But I already gave my interpretation.

toto wrote:
If you see an arrow on end, can you tell if it coming towards you or away from you? If you shot the arrow from your bow, you would know. If you do not have a bow in hand, you would also know. So why are these two statement from Jesus an inexplicable contradiction? If you have doubts, you are either the perpetrator or you are the victim.

What Jesus is saying is to give our brothers the benefit of the doubt. Do not be the perpetrator nor the victim.



fanofVan wrote:
Back off Louis....looking to get kicked off here for the 4th time are you....such an example of God's will, you can't maintain a name more than a few weeks.


Is this a threat?


fanofVan wrote:
So you're the will of God huh?


Yes, and so are you.


Louis


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So....no deal then? Okay, your choice.....toto the ankle biter it is then.

Oh I see, Jim was saying Al was not being sincere enough? Not insincere? You crack me up toto.

And still off topic....to be expected.

:roll:


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fanofVan wrote:
So....no deal then? Okay, your choice.....toto the ankle biter it is then.

Oh I see, Jim was saying Al was not being sincere enough? Not insincere? You crack me up toto.

And still off topic....to be expected.

:roll:



You are twisting words Bradly. Never was it written that Jim accused Al of insincerity and he never said that Al was not being sincere enough. He merely asked for more sincerity.

So, you are not with me, but against me. Just trying to stay on topic.


Louis


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nodAmanaV wrote:
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(153:4.3) You compel me to declare that he who is not with me is against me, while he who gathers not with me scatters abroad.

What did Jesus mean when he said this exactly?

Interesting question, where when someone reads this it might imply or infer that Jesus said this to be what He actually believed, but not necessarily so, because when one looks up various words used and applies the different definitions, it would seem He made this statement as to have a derogatory meaning.

If one were to replace the words "compel", "declare", "gathers" and "scatters", with a version of their possible alternate definitions, it might change this statement to read as follows:

You cause Me by force to announce officially that "he who is not with me is against me," while he or those who take by selection from among other things which I say to separate and drive off in various directions those who are in doubt.

Those who were learned among them might understand this as an admonishment but, those more common would be puzzled, but would take to heart that Jesus meant what He said.

Or, so I think?

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The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.


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"he who is not with me is against me"

This can be broken down into three groups.
Group 1 = those who are with him.
Group 2 = those who are not with him.
Group 3 = those who are against him.

The context here, when he said this, was that he said it to those who wore the robes of religious authority. Those who put on a show of being with him, while in their hearts they were against him. They even plotted to kill him mind you. Being with him (or not) has nothing to do with anything a man can see and judge about another man, but God can. Being with him does require a wholehearted choice though. Otherwise, your in Group 2.



"he who is not against us is for us"

This can be broken down into two groups.
Group 4 = those who are with him, and for us.
Group 5 = those who are with him, aren't us, and aren't against us.

The context here, when he said this, was that he said it to those who chose to work with him to establish the kingdom of heaven, his ambassadors and close associates, who did not consider others who taught in his name to be a part of "us" when actually they were.




(196:3.24) The unity of truth, beauty, and goodness can only be realized in the spiritual experience of the God-knowing personality.



Bradly, why are you against us?


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