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(49:4.9) But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster's mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.

I think many and not just UB readers believe everyone has a soul, a soul from physical birth.

But Jesus said you must rebirth yourself in order to enter the kingdom.

Any thoughts about this?


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We are all offspring of our timeless, eternal father. Just as we are separated from our mother at birth, we are separated from our father as well. When we are born into this world of time, the connection to our timeless heart is broken. Our minds, in time, lead us away from our heart and toward ego, vanity and wealth, which are all just illusions. The "spiritual transformation of the material mind" is, turning away from the illusions of this world and waking up to the reality of our timeless heart and beginning the journey back home to the spirit of truth.

regards, gray


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the papers are clear on this topic...soul birth occurs with the arrival of the TA when the child makes their first moral decision around the age of 5


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49:4.9 But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster's mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.


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I think many and not just UB readers believe everyone has a soul, a soul from physical birth.


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(110.6.13) The seventh circle. This level is entered when human beings develop the powers of personal choice, individual decision, moral responsibility, and the capacity for the attainment of spiritual individuality. This signifies the united function of the seven adjutant mind-spirits under the direction of the spirit of wisdom, the encircuitment of the mortal creature in the influence of the Holy Spirit, and, on Urantia, the first functioning of the Spirit of Truth, together with the reception of a Thought Adjuster in the mortal mind. Entrance upon the seventh circle constitutes a mortal creature a truly potential citizen of the local universe.


And so, here it truly begins. This is not physical birth, it is not even soul birth, it is the potential of soul birth. But now let’s see if we can find a reference for true soul birth.

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111.2.4 There are three and not two factors in the evolutionary creation of such an immortal soul. These three antecedents of the morontia human soul are:
111.2.5 1. The human mind and all cosmic influences antecedent thereto and impinging thereon.
111.2.6 2. The divine spirit indwelling this human mind and all potentials inherent in such a fragment of absolute spirituality together with all associated spiritual influences and factors in human life.
111.2.7 3. The relationship between material mind and divine spirit, which connotes a value and carries a meaning not found in either of the contributing factors to such an association. The reality of this unique relationship is neither material nor spiritual but morontial. It is the soul.


Number 3 presents us with a most challenging proposition. The soul is the relationship between the mind and the spirit (thought adjuster). I cannot find any other humanly perceived reality that accurately represents this truth. Relationships are real, we believe, but real and representative of an actual, functional, literal value-based reality? I can’t even imagine such a thing. What I can do, though, is experience such a thing. But even this experience will not be realized by my mind unless I choose to realize it, to place my faith in it. When I do, I experience its truth, and that is the key to the mystery. The mind is only one participant in the creation of the soul, yet it is through our mind that we recognize the experience of it. This creative experience is not from within the mind but attached to and associated with the mind. How we know this, is that our minds are able to be willed to do things for our personality, but the spirit we cannot will. We can’t force or will the spirit to participate which simply means that we can’t control its development. All we can do is will to participate. That puts the spirit in the proper place and our will takes the hind seat.

So, now comes the last of the key constituent factors in our soul development. We must participate, decide to allow the spirit to control our direction, as the book says, be our pilot. I have found that this process is done unconsciously most of the time. This means that even inadvertent decisions to participate by individuals who have no knowledge of what is happening, are germane to our soul growth. God takes everything we allow as his materials to build our souls, even when we don’t consciously know we are participating. That is why our Thought Adjusters are heroes. This satisfies the requirement for the slightest flicker of faith.

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155.6.17 Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him.


But Jesus said we must experience rebirth ourselves in order to enter the kingdom and I for one, don’t believe he was talking about either our physical death or this possibly "feeble attempt to reach our for him" activity. There is more to all this. Much more.

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140:1.4 “But for you, my children, and for all others who would follow you into this kingdom, there is set a severe test. Faith alone will pass you through its portals, but you must bring forth the fruits of my Father’s spirit if you would continue to ascend in the progressive life of the divine fellowship. Verily, verily, I say to you, not every one who says, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but rather he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Jesus often referred to the kingdom of heaven. Frequently when he did, he spoke of what we now know as fusion. Jesus used the term born again as the point in human experience when the will of man consciously enlists in the adventure of spiritual growth; of seeking common ground with the thought adjuster where we will eventually “see eye to eye”. The only way all his pronouncements make sense is to think of physical death as inconsequential in our spiritual development. Other than to recognize the obvious and astounding reformation of our perspective we attain when we realize we are looking back, as ourselves, at death, the thing we feared the most, add this. Until we lose consciousness at death we have never experienced the complete and total lack of consciousness, ever. During the transition from physical to Morontial there is a period of this non-consciousness. Upon reawakening our consciousness reappears and we are again ourselves, complete with a new body, but conscious. We are aware of nothing in between, including being non-conscious. My contention and conclusion here is that while we exist in a conscious state, time awareness is how we measure the movement of reality. During the non-consciousness between here and Mansonia #1 we have a consciously measurable time period of nil; a moment, only the essence of separation of consciousness. Said another way, consciousness on this planet ends and the instant we lose that we reawaken, re-conscious-ize, in a new body; instant, zero awareness of the period in between. Literally, awake here, awake there, no other awareness; not one essential moment apart.

With this concept of instantaneous awareness, the presence of the “afterlife” becomes, experientially, a change in consciousness and nothing more. That is how close it is. Said like that it isn’t a “now and then” issue at all. It is a change of perspective in the continuousness of the ever present “now”.
As fantastic an experience as that resurrection will be, Jesus said we can know that reality “NOW!”. It is the reality of being “born again” and here is a great confusion. Being born again experientially transcends the experience of resurrection as a qualitatively spiritual action but it does not give us the same quantitative experience as the resurrection. The transition of one’s devotion from self-appointed to God appointed is so profound and life altering that it is an experience of eternal consequence; one that is feelingly experienced and never forgotten. Resurrection on Mansonia #1 does not provide the same quality of devotion and resulting personal experience in spirit reality, but it does provide us with an astounding change of both circumstances and perspective. So, resurrection on Mansonia and Born Again are not the same, and neither of them are necessarily fusion. But to attain fusion we must have made the devotional decision to commit all we are and will ever be to God. Somewhere along the path to that decision we each become born again. Simply said, our decision to commit is attended to by our Thought Adjuster and the connection is experiential, recognizable and unforgettable.

I know when I made that decision. The Urantia Book tells us the event is a definite experience. It certainly was for me. I also know and remember the earlier experience of deciding to find God, but that was not the same as having God acknowledge my decision to follow him, to trust him, to do his will.

Whether it happens suddenly or gradually we are still able to actively notice the change in perspective from being self-directed to willingly and willfully allowing God to direct and openly inspect our lives. It does not happen automatically. It happens deliberately. Apparently, it often doesn’t happen until we arrive on Mansonia. But whenever or however it happens it provides us with an unforgettable experience!

Soul growth is nearly automatic, at least to some degree, reference the faint flicker. As described, some humans decide to repudiate even the faint flicker and forego the whole adventure, losing their connection with the Thought Adjuster. Moreover, some get to Mansonia and decide not to participate in the “severe test”. Facing one’s selfishness on earth is hard but facing one’s selfishness without the benefit of procrastination must be truly intense. But the severe test is real for everyone who will follow God.

I don’t understand why so many of us apparently think living in heaven will be easier than here. The greatest challenges of life aren’t in process of learning about God; the greatest challenges are in the facing of ourselves on more sincere and deep levels, with God. The deeper we go, the harder it is to recognize our selfish errors and the more important and personal our relationship with God becomes. If we object to such deep sincerity here, why do we think we will find it so much more appealing after death? Life eternal is simply the consciousness of consciously sharing our deepest inner life openly with God; and then sharing that relationship with each other. If hiding from this process is our habit, then awakening to the removal of death as a means of putting things off will be not so pleasant. Breaking bad habits will be part of our severe test. Seeking direct confrontation with the dark depths of our inner being that we may willingly decide to allow God to enlighten us there is the epitome of bravery, according to the book. Sooner or later we will have to do it. I choose sooner.

To recap my thoughts which I admit are somewhat rambling, let me say this.

Souls are automatic but require effort to grow, ours and the adjusters. We can eliminate our souls individually if we choose. We awaken on the Mansion Worlds if we have a soul. We must embrace the great challenge of seeking, knowing, growing and living in relation to God deliberately and intentionally. Sooner or later we must be Born Again into that degree of commitment, i.e., the full hearted embrace of the path God has for us to follow. Fusion happens when we have finally made the final irrevocable decision to stay the course, to follow God. That is when we have passed the Great and Severe Test; when we have come to terms with God, His terms not ours.

And to think that Enoch and Elijah and who knows if any others have done that while on this planet is astounding. And they didn't have the Urantia Book either.

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Any thoughts about this?


Yea, a few! Thanks for the question Enno.

Jim


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nodAmanaV wrote:
(49:4.9) But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster's mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.

I think many and not just UB readers believe everyone has a soul, a soul from physical birth.

But Jesus said you must rebirth yourself in order to enter the kingdom.

Any thoughts about this?


Greetings Enno!

As Makalu points out, no UB readers with knowledge of the text believe we have a soul from birth. And I don't know that or even believe most others do either...I'll call this an unsubstantiated claim for now. In the church of my youth, we were taught that around age 7 was the age of first-discernment - the ability to know right from wrong...and no one might be baptized prior to such an age and the elder's interview confirming the ability to discern right from wrong - the age of morality. Looking back and seeing my own children and grandchildren receive their own TA's, it is indeed obvious when we are so endowed by this gift of the the God Fragment.

There is no soul prior to or without TA....and their is no TA within without the subsequent birth of soul.

The TA and the mortal mind are the parents of the soul and it is given birth by their joint, cocreative will and act of consumation. Soul is born....and then grows....and can do so of its own volition we are taught. The soul has self consciousness and TA consciousness....the mind with the TA within and the soul within may or may not be so conscious we are told. Fascinating. We are wired for spiritization and spiritualization in our dual nature and in many ways it is automated or relflexive.

Consider that children and barbarians and the ignorant and foolish and those with no beiefs and false beliefs can still experience and express faith...or so we are taught.

But as Jim points out....related to rebirth and being born again....there is a great difference in lighting the candle and growing the light sufficiently for fusion with our TA. Very big difference. And I agree that much of the teachings of Jesus has to do with Circle Progress and fusion. We are taught that the birth of soul is not truly the beginning of our eternal destiny...it is but the beginning of its potential. We are not reckoned by name and number until fusion and only then is our eternal destiny assured.

We cannot fuse reflexively or with a flicker. We must intentionally choose the Spirit and we must consciously and deliberately and completely transfer the seat of our identity. This takes experience and the growth of wisdom and time. Jesus did it in a short mortal life. People in the later mortal epochs often do so within a few centuries of material life. Those of us with such brief mortality but a flicker of light reach the Mansion Worlds where we must choose progress and spiritualization still. There's nothing automatic about spiritualization even though we are wired for it and receive so much loving ministry and sufficient time and mercy to achieve it = still it must be achieved and it must be chosen first to be achieved.

Our will is always the volitional element that is in control of the entire proces...and only our will. We are taught it is the only gift of value and meaning we might give to God within. Jesus taught it is to be our will that God's will be done....God's will has no meaning or relevancy to us until our will is aligned with God's....but it still must be our will. No one, even God and Michael, will coerce or demand or override our free will. Or so we are taught, free will is sancrosanct and is forevermore. All who assert or insinuate otherwise do so in contradiction to the Papers. God's will is simple love for one another and the experienctial perfecting of wisdom in the expression of that love whilst the fruits of the vine flow through the branch and grow upon the branch based on that love and wisdom experienced and expressed. But the attachment of the branch is only up to the will of the branch, not the will of the vine. Or so I understand it.

The "kingdom of heaven" spoken of by Jesus is described as having 5 distinct meanings dependent upon the context and audience of his many sayings and presentations on the matter....a great topic for study as each of the 5 is important for consideration....and none of the 5 are fusion with our Adjuster, or not so according to the UB itself. A study of Paper 170 is advised. The kingdom of heaven is within and is the brotherhood of all humanity and is the friendly universe of all Deity and created beings...it is community at every level and phase. And we are to join these kingdoms within long before fusion can even take place. The saying "the kingdom is at hand" means it is here and it is now...it is not distant or future.

170:1.13 (1859.6) At different times and in varying circumstances it appears that Jesus may have presented numerous concepts of the “kingdom” in his public teachings, but to his apostles he always taught the kingdom as embracing man’s personal experience in relation to his fellows on earth and to the Father in heaven. Concerning the kingdom, his last word always was, “The kingdom is within you.”

While i have always believed, since the moment of my TA's arrival, I too remember when I consciously decided and chose to be with God and to want his way in and for my life and dedicated my young will to his. And later, when I felt the power of the spiritization of my soul and experienced an understanding of doing right for right's sake and set aside all fear of punishment and evil, knowing that I was safe in the kingdom of love and mercy and cared for and guided into my destiny...and then came the early and budding fruits of happiness, contentment, assurance, patience, long suffering, kindness, and the love of others found by the discovery of their light within.

It's a process. It's ours to will and to manage....but then we're told we really simply need not resist for spiritization and the results delivered by our spirit ministers and angels! This life on this world is but the beginning of the eternal adventure...and starts with the birth of soul...and that's so easy a child can do it. Circle work takes more effort, time, and attention however!

Bradly 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:46 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Thanks for the topic Enno!!

Personally, I am confused and uncertain about the issues related to the beginning or origination of soul and the "gradual birth" described here and the meaning of rebirth and born again:

111:2.9 (1218.7) This supernal transaction of evolving the immortal soul is made possible because the mortal mind is first personal and second is in contact with superanimal realities; it possesses a supermaterial endowment of cosmic ministry which insures the evolution of a moral nature capable of making moral decisions, thereby effecting a bona fide creative contact with the associated spiritual ministries and with the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

111:2.10 (1218.8) The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation — the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.

The soul does have a beginning point and it is a cocreation of two parents - the adjutant mortal mind dominated by a human will and an actual fragment of the very God of all creation. But the soul evolves and grows...or can, based on the craving of the human mind....and the volitional will choices of that mind.

We also know there are factors of spiritization and spiritual growth which are less conscious and those that are and must be deliberate and intentional. And we are challenged by the terms rebirth and born again which describe, I think, this conscious and deliberate form of spiritualization. Can we transfer the seat of our internal identity unconsciously?? I don't know but I don't think so, no.

Always a pleasure to consider how we grow soul and traverse the Circles and prepare for fusion and the eternal destiny we share.

:wink: :biggrin: 8)


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Thanks for your thoughts gray, Makalu, Jim and Bradly. It's nice to see the ball rolling again around here at TB.

Cheers,
Enno


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Bradly,

I offer this comment relative to the quote you provided.

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111:2.10 (1218.8) The inevitable result of such a contactual spiritualization of the human mind is the gradual birth of a soul, the joint offspring of an adjutant mind dominated by a human will that craves to know God, working in liaison with the spiritual forces of the universe which are under the overcontrol of an actual fragment of the very God of all creation — the Mystery Monitor. And thus does the material and mortal reality of the self transcend the temporal limitations of the physical-life machine and attain a new expression and a new identification in the evolving vehicle for selfhood continuity, the morontia and immortal soul.


The gradual birth of the soul quote, I see as similar to the gestation period of a fetus. The soul is begun at the arrival of the TA but the gradual growth continues during our physical life leading to the actualization of it as our life vehicle upon our resurrection on Mansonia #1. I wonder if there is a condition where the soul, upon arrival on Mansonia, is barely sufficient to maintain life similar to a premature physical body born on earth. If there is some intentional degree of relationship required to facilitate continuing, it would explain Jesus' insistence that we take the whole process more seriously. In that case, born again may be really necessary. That is a decision to proceed is necessary, even in advance of death if our souls are so weak and immature.

Just a thought. What do you think?

Jim


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Hey Jim,

Hmmmmm...interesting. I think that souls are not so fragile or in jeopardy...or not most or even so many...or not since Pentecost anyway. And I think it is illogical (but not necessarily inaccurate) that those many believers who have indeed been reborn by conscious, deliberate will and choice during the mortal life here and who exhibit significant love response and loving service motive to others are weak or fetal forms or even infantile forms of kingdom dwellers and believers. I think Circle Progress is not so unusual....I know others feel differently and anguish over the peril they think our world and its people are in....but that's not me.

By my studies I am convinced that the soul, upon its birth, is fed many good choices of morality and spiritualized meanings and values and experiences and hopes and ideals (we are told children are born generous and gregarious and with a strong sense of fairness and must be taught to be otherwise). I think the soul can worship via the TA with but the consent of material mind and without the congnizant participation of that material mind. I think the TA can spiritize the soul and the material mind by the assistance of the Holy Spirit and Spirit of Truth and the angels who attend us in profound and mysterious ways that deliver effects and results that are not easily discerned or measured by mortals in our human judgements of others.

I think that to be reborn one is not so blind or weak but is seeking that bread and water that satisfies that yearning and hunger and thirst delivered by the TA's...it is responsiveness rather than desperation if you will. I think most people have this and respond to it...and I think almost everyone feels this early in life but some become too twisted by environment/home life or too distracted by materialisms to respond significantly early in life....but disappointment and frustration always comes to such ones....let us hope they too eventually respond to the endless voice of hope and love within.

I do think there are souls who survive and awaken with but a flicker and I do also think such souls arrive still in jeopordy and still in need of rebirth. And I do also think that consciously dedicating our life to the Spirit within here and now delivers acceleration of progress in the Circles and our personal spiritization by the TA and we begin the spiritualization of our life in the reality of God's Kingdom....and we are certainly blessed by such decisions and choices. We risk peril later by indifference to the spirit within today....no doubt.

But frankly I feel a great confidence in our Creator Son and in the Deities and Rulers and Servants of this universe and the universe of universes. I don't think Urantians are particularly peculiar nor are they in greater darkness, confusions, or jeopardy than people throughout time and space. I believe in the ascension plan and the power and wisdom of those in charge of that plan and believe that the UB spends a great deal of its contents on the love, patience, mercy, fairness, and incredible affection that every single mortal born person receives.

So I do not worry so much about my soul or destiny or that of any other. I do however strive to spiritualize my journey and myself and always encourage others to do the same...for thereby is happiness discovered and truth embraced and meaning and value discerned and derived. Jesus taught us to do right for right's sake and not to avoid any punishment or suffering or doom...we are to grow the fruits to enjoy the fruits as well as to share them.

Nearly all of the ire of Jesus was directed at the priesthood of hypocracy and the deception of their flock and much of the "narrow" path teaching was indeed about the way to fusion and eternal life to apostles, disciples, believers, and seekers. But I also notice how kind, patient, and gentle he was to the people he met and taught. Did Jesus shout warnings at people other than the priests? No. Was he impatient with any besides his own Apostles? No. And his teaching of the Apostles he did out of love and responsibility to prepare them for the keen disappointments and failures and torture and death they were to endure so soon - he had to steel them and gird them for the challenges to come and also to empower them for effectiveness in their crucial mission and ministry to come.

This is why we are told in the text to be particularly cognizant of the context and the audience of Jesus when considering his words and teachings. To each different person in each situation and to each audience to which he addressed is a personalization or situational message to be considered. Sometimes his audience was even the universe of Nebadon in scale and scope, sometimes the errant and iniquitous priesthood, sometimes the naïve and stubborn apostles expecting to share crown and glory and fighting over who was to sit where in their many immaturities, sometimes it was his siblings or pupils, sometimes it was folks as he passed by, and sometimes it was those seeking free bread and fish or miracles or deliverance, and sometimes it was those who could see and found faith, and sometime it was to dear John Mark or beloved friends who loved him and great personal affection was shared between close companions. We are told to discern to whom is Jesus talking and in what contest for very good reason. It is an error to simply generalize every word spoken without such awareness we are told.

Jesus was not filled with warnings or the need to berate and chastise us tadpoles - his voice and ministry was one of good cheer, encouragement, hope, and calm affection and regard for us mortals. Perhaps we should do the same? To me, Jesus did not seem to be overly concerned about the normal outcomes of normal people upon their death and genuinely held the common folk in high regard and with admiration....because he could truly see the light within, whether flicker or bright, and he could behold their/our better natures and hopes and aspirations and this was his measure of others...I sometimes wonder what is our own measure of others....for are we not taught that as we measure and judge others so we are and will be measured in our turn?

I think we must be very careful in our assessments of others and who we judge to be weak or strong in Spirit or in jeopardy...this is not for us at all to determine and there is even greater peril and jeopardy in such habits than in awakening with but a flicker on the Mansion Worlds I think. I am responsible only for me and only to share the light within and the fruits of the vine my branch might grow for the sharing. I do not find the Revelation a book of warning but like the life and teachings of our Master, I find it filled with generosity, hope, assurance, love, optimism, and kindness for our nurture and encouragement. My belly has more than been filled with the putrid and bitter threats of the evolutionary religions of my youth....no more of that for me!!

I am happy to find and post text in support of such opinions as may be requested. And thanks for asking what I think Jim.

8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
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(49:4.9) But mortal mind without immortal spirit cannot survive. The mind of man is mortal; only the bestowed spirit is immortal. Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster—on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards the Adjuster's mission of effecting the spiritual transformation of the material mind.

I think many and not just UB readers believe everyone has a soul, a soul from physical birth.

But Jesus said you must rebirth yourself in order to enter the kingdom.

Any thoughts about this?


Interesting statements above, however a little vague in relation to questions regarding “immortal soul”? Where, “immortal” and “soul” are separate entities, therefore a more appropriate question would be is ‘when does the soul become immortal?’ Being that the implication of the UB quote used in the OP, listed above, implies several aspects as to how “mind”, “spirit” and “soul” actually interact and evolve over time, or in this case a mortals life experience on Earth or Urantia?

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(8.7) 0:5.7 1. Body. The material or physical organism of man. The living electrochemical mechanism of animal nature and origin.

(8.8) 0:5.8 2. Mind. The thinking, perceiving, and feeling mechanism of the human organism. The total conscious and unconscious experience. The intelligence associated with the emotional life reaching upward through worship and wisdom to the spirit level.

(8.9) 0:5.9 3. Spirit. The divine spirit that indwells the mind of man — the Thought Adjuster. This immortal spirit is prepersonal — not a personality, though destined to become a part of the personality of the surviving mortal creature.

(8.10) 0:5.10 4. Soul. The soul of man is an experiential acquirement. As a mortal creature chooses to “do the will of the Father in heaven,” so the indwelling spirit becomes the father of a new reality in human experience. The mortal and material mind is the mother of this same emerging reality. The substance of this new reality is neither material nor spiritual — it is morontial. This is the emerging and immortal soul which is destined to survive mortal death and begin the Paradise ascension.


Based on the four levels defined above, the “body”, “mind”, “spirit” and “soul” are separate entities which may not relate to each other, in the sense of needing to be a prerequisite to each other. By this I mean that, is it necessary to have a “body” in order to have a “mind”, or a “mind” before one can have or experience “spirit” and, thereby assume that one has a “soul” in order that, that “soul” can become “immortal”, or as indicated above, the “immortal soul” becomes “morontial”, which is what “survives mortal death”.

Therefore, the “soul” as described above, would be a developing entity which is built or constructed as is a human who develops from the womb to be birthed by woman and takes on the “spirit” of life, through their first breath of life on their own, and every living experience from that point becomes a “soul”, capable of becoming “immortal”. However, as mentioned above the “spirit” will change as the “soul” experiences those things which are considered as being “the will of the Father”, whereby becoming a “new reality” but, this new reality could be considered the individuals personality.

Quote:

(9.1) 0:5.11 Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


Now, as mentioned above, the “personality” really becomes fixed to an individual upon “the survival of the morontial soul”, or “immortal soul” but, does this require death of the mortal or can it be received while living?
This also implies that this “morontial”/”immortal” “soul” has acquired their real personality, which was seeded with the arrival of the “Thought Adjuster”, or as this seed becomes the “Mystery Monitor”, or “the real you” as associated with the TA.

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(1193.5) 108:6.6 And as you are the human parent, so is the Adjuster the divine parent of the real you, your higher and advancing self, your better morontial and future spiritual self. And it is this evolving morontial soul that the judges and censors discern when they decree your survival and pass you upward to new worlds and never-ending existence in eternal liaison with your faithful partner — God, the Adjuster.


In the following UB quote, it mentions that the “human soul” is a liaison between the “mortal mind” and the “Adjuster”, where at this time the “spirit” has developed or grown into the “real you” through experience held within the “soul” or vessel created at birth.

Quote:
(1246.5) 113:6.1 Having told you something of the ministry of seraphim during natural life, I will endeavor to inform you about the conduct of the guardians of destiny at the time of the mortal dissolution of their human associates. Upon your death, your records, identity specifications, and the morontia entity of the human soul — conjointly evolved by the ministry of mortal mind and the divine Adjuster — are faithfully conserved by the destiny guardian together with all other values related to your future existence, everything that constitutes you, the real you, except the identity of continuing existence represented by the departing Adjuster and the actuality of personality.


Based on these narrations the real questions would be, in association with the individual, and their creation; where do these levels of “body”, “mind”, “spirit” and “soul” come from in relation to the “Thought Adjuster” choosing this person at a specific time, where it would also be necessary to know who the “real you” is or would be, prior to conception? So, if the TA is the “real you” later on in your developing life, then the “real you” would have existed prior to birth of your animal form?

Regarding "rebirth" as mentioned in the OP, the following UB quote would imply the need for understanding the rebirth of the individual while in mortal form.

Quote:
(1609.4) 143:2.3 “Verily, verily, I say to you, he who rules his own self is greater than he who captures a city. Self-mastery is the measure of man’s moral nature and the indicator of his spiritual development. In the old order you fasted and prayed; as the new creature of the rebirth of the spirit, you are taught to believe and rejoice. In the Father’s kingdom you are to become new creatures; old things are to pass away; behold I show you how all things are to become new. And by your love for one another you are to convince the world that you have passed from bondage to liberty, from death into life everlasting.


It would indicate that it is the "spirit" that is re-born, or in the previous narration, the realization of the "real you", as associated to your developing or developed personality.

_________________
The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.


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Jim George wrote:
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111.2.4 There are three and not two factors in the evolutionary creation of such an immortal soul. These three antecedents of the morontia human soul are:
111.2.5 1. The human mind and all cosmic influences antecedent thereto and impinging thereon.
111.2.6 2. The divine spirit indwelling this human mind and all potentials inherent in such a fragment of absolute spirituality together with all associated spiritual influences and factors in human life.
111.2.7 3. The relationship between material mind and divine spirit, which connotes a value and carries a meaning not found in either of the contributing factors to such an association. The reality of this unique relationship is neither material nor spiritual but morontial. It is the soul.


Number 3 presents us with a most challenging proposition. The soul is the relationship between the mind and the spirit (thought adjuster). I cannot find any other humanly perceived reality that accurately represents this truth. Relationships are real, we believe, but real and representative of an actual, functional, literal value-based reality? I can’t even imagine such a thing. What I can do, though, is experience such a thing. But even this experience will not be realized by my mind unless I choose to realize it, to place my faith in it. When I do, I experience its truth, and that is the key to the mystery. The mind is only one participant in the creation of the soul, yet it is through our mind that we recognize the experience of it. This creative experience is not from within the mind but attached to and associated with the mind. How we know this, is that our minds are able to be willed to do things for our personality, but the spirit we cannot will. We can’t force or will the spirit to participate which simply means that we can’t control its development. All we can do is will to participate. That puts the spirit in the proper place and our will takes the hind seat.

So, now comes the last of the key constituent factors in our soul development. We must participate, decide to allow the spirit to control our direction, as the book says, be our pilot. I have found that this process is done unconsciously most of the time. This means that even inadvertent decisions to participate by individuals who have no knowledge of what is happening, are germane to our soul growth. God takes everything we allow as his materials to build our souls, even when we don’t consciously know we are participating. That is why our Thought Adjusters are heroes. This satisfies the requirement for the slightest flicker of faith.


Yes, that may be challenging for us in 2 respects: On one hand we do experience that relationship and communication between the mind, soul and adjuster, even consciously. But those experiences are so very, very refined that they don't register so often in ways that we easily recognize or make use of. The second respect might have something to do with bridging the gulf between time and eternity. Our material minds surely live with a material clock ticking away, even providing our consciousness on the basis of that material sequence of events that is necessary for us to be conscious. But with adjuster contact there must be some kind of jump out of material dependency towards the spiritual and into eternity in a sense. So apparently the adjuster (and the angels with other ministering beings) sees the potential of the human mind and soul yearning to make that jump and reinforces or turbo-charges such a connection over the enormous hurtle that would make it impossible otherwise.


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well i've never interpreted the text about the father responding to the faintest flicker of faith as equating survival, but a lot of readers do. it just says god honors and fosters the attempted reach. a first step of faith is required to begin the quest though.

born again is when you identify as a child of god rather than just a child of your mortal mom and dad...its the transfer of identity


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Riktare's comment points to a significant and very important issue for us, I believe.
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Yes, that may be challenging for us in 2 respects: On one hand we do experience that relationship and communication between the mind, soul and adjuster, even consciously. But those experiences are so very, very refined that they don't register so often in ways that we easily recognize or make use of. The second respect might have something to do with bridging the gulf between time and eternity. Our material minds surely live with a material clock ticking away, even providing our consciousness on the basis of that material sequence of events that is necessary for us to be conscious. But with adjuster contact there must be some kind of jump out of material dependency towards the spiritual and into eternity in a sense. So apparently the adjuster (and the angels with other ministering beings) sees the potential of the human mind and soul yearning to make that jump and reinforces or turbo-charges such a connection over the enormous hurtle that would make it impossible otherwise.


Material mindedness is primarily quantitative so we naturally think of things in the manner and process that engenders. Spirit consciousness is qualitative; is enabled by consecration of will. Simply said, the human mind thinks about how much he or she loves God and tries to know him more so he can love him more. The spirit in us is attempting to teach us to see this desire as how well we love God, not how much. Each of us personally, can know that. The Urantia Book says we must love him to know him, not the other way around.

I have found the most trouble in my life comes when I forget this. Learning to love that which we do not yet know is really challenging for my human mind. The great divide Riktare talks about may be this difference in viewpoint from material to spiritual, but when seen from the spiritual it looks so obvious. If we learn to love God as well as we can, how much we are able to comprehend, will follow. How well we can love him is always personal and subject to our own willingness and desire.


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MidiChlorian wrote:
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(9.1) 0:5.11 Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


Now, as mentioned above, the “personality” really becomes fixed to an individual upon “the survival of the morontial soul”, or “immortal soul” but, does this require death of the mortal or can it be received while living?
This also implies that this “morontial”/”immortal” “soul” has acquired their real personality, which was seeded with the arrival of the “Thought Adjuster”, or as this seed becomes the “Mystery Monitor”, or “the real you” as associated with the TA.


That may be one of the reasons some celestial personalities call adjusters Mystery Monitors. They apparently bestow personality on the human they indwell. Or do the revelators claim that personality is bestowed upon physical birth?

I sometimes entertain the notion that personality is self-selected by the human at the point in time or eternity when they have been perfected. That perfected choice by the perfected person is reflected back in time by the adjuster. Such a scheme would seem to parallel the revelation or emergence of The Trinity of Trinities. It is an eternal fact that the Trinity of Trinities has always existed. It's only that the Cosmos and all of its inhabitants have prior to that point not developed to be able to see or understand the existence of The Trinity of Trinities.


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graybear13 wrote:
We are all offspring of our timeless, eternal father. Just as we are separated from our mother at birth, we are separated from our father as well. When we are born into this world of time, the connection to our timeless heart is broken. Our minds, in time, lead us away from our heart and toward ego, vanity and wealth, which are all just illusions. The "spiritual transformation of the material mind" is, turning away from the illusions of this world and waking up to the reality of our timeless heart and beginning the journey back home to the spirit of truth.

regards, gray


It has been my observation that the ones who "bridge the gulf between time and eternity" Riktare, in one big jump either end up alone on a mountain top or in a wheel chair drooling on their jammies. When I hear, so called, "born again" Christians say that they have made that jump and are self-assured that they are in harmony with the master I am a little skeptical. I hope, for their sake, that their proclamations are not coming from a vain and egotistical place. If it is, their journey back home has not even begun. They are lost in their mind, in time and the master cannot see them.

regards, gray


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