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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Therefore, in attempting to help someone, it is necessary to be prayerful and thoughtful, and not make presumptions about the person's needs or failings.

I agree Agon. That's what Louis did with his patient. He provided her with what he knew she needed, prayerfully and thoughtfully. It was spontaneous and came from love.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Therefore, in attempting to help someone, it is necessary to be prayerful and thoughtful, and not make presumptions about the person's needs or failings.

Maybe all that is needed, is to listen, but to listen one must also, assume that what a "person's needs or failings" cannot be determined until the entire story is heard? That is assuming that one has asked leading questions which allows the teller to see past their understanding of their own presumptions, and let them see the true underlying cause of their issue, thereby allowing for the ability to attain self-insight to their problems.

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MidiChlorian wrote:
Maybe all that is needed, is to listen, but to listen one must also, assume that what a "person's needs or failings" cannot be determined until the entire story is heard? That is assuming that one has asked leading questions which allows the teller to see past their understanding of their own presumptions, and let them see the true underlying cause of their issue, thereby allowing for the ability to attain self-insight to their problems.

That might be the key. It isn't what is done for another, it's what's done with another that stimulates awareness and insight of what to do to help oneself.

This works in two directions. It works perhaps more for the person who avails himself in assistance. It causes spiritual growth. It's another treasure that's laid up in heaven.

Isn't that one of the reasons why Jesus was always on the lookout to be of assistance?

Because he knew it was food for growth?


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MidiChlorian wrote:
Maybe all that is needed, is to listen, but to listen one must also, assume that what a "person's needs or failings" cannot be determined until the entire story is heard? That is assuming that one has asked leading questions which allows the teller to see past their understanding of their own presumptions, and let them see the true underlying cause of their issue, thereby allowing for the ability to attain self-insight to their problems.



Bingo!

But the key is to first ask Father what to ask and what to listen for. And if you lead a horse to water and he won't drink, you have made the effort, you have given the time, you have given love. Giving IS receiving; again, it's a two-for. It is not our place to make anyone drink. Leading the horse is the our only part to play. Jesus made no decisions without first consulting with Father. We are here to re-mind each other of our Father within. We must bear our souls in order to share our Father.

I am heartened by the discussion and arguments. We are spending the time to respond to each other. This time is love. It reminds me of siblings bickering and even coming to blows, but in the end, we grow up and cherish even the times when we're piggish towards each other. However, any thoughts of shunning or banishment is not what family does to a family member. Even the calls for it make me sad.

Self-insight, as Ewald said, is only possible if we serve as a mirror to Father within. This requires transparency into the Soul. Jesus said that we are the light of the world. Let us allow this light to shine through. Let the Sun shine in.

Louis


BTW, Enno, I was typing as you posted above; please forgive any redundancy.


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toto wrote:
But the key is to first ask Father what to ask and what to listen for. And if you lead a horse to water and he won't drink, you have made the effort, you have given the time, you have given love. Giving IS receiving; again, it's a two-for. It is not our place to make anyone drink. Leading the horse is the our only part to play. Jesus made no decisions without first consulting with Father. We are here to re-mind each other of our Father within. We must bear our souls in order to share our Father.

If one really knows our Father then we may know that at a certain point in time in our life, we may no longer need to ask because we know that Father is with us. However, each has their own understanding and belief of these things which may not be transferred to others merely through dictating. Nevertheless, in order to project insight of self to others, listening is one thing, observation can also be more useful when associated with one's known experience, where knowing one's self can show similar parallels to others.

Father gives us all opportunities to learn, through experience through living the circumstances of our lives, but they are not always equal associate's with other's who have experiences, therefore it is always necessary to pay attention to various details one is being shown, or in some cases details that are not present based on other known knowledge which may surround specific circumstances. This makes it possible to see what may be hidden in an other's distress.

Having had one opportunity, one in many, to observe a young person who was placed into a situation whereby his actions was misinterpreted by professionals to be of a homosexual nature, when it was truly something else. The implication by these professionals were constantly reinforced through their ignorance of the person being examined, thereby compounding or reinforcing the subjects resistance to reveal that which was the underlying problem. The subject was physically lame through an accident from an earlier time, which was compounded through additional events which tore his family apart, or so he thought. Prior to this accident he and his father were close being that his father was a coach of sports, which they both had partaken in and, after the accident this association was no longer available, whereby the young subject determined that because of him or his accident his father lost interest in family and him. Thinking that the subsequent dissolution of marriage between his parents was due to his physical infliction, that since he was not able to continue as before, he was the direct cause. Not actually understanding the real reason, the subject, now isolated himself and acted out in ways which would draw attention to himself in ways that were misinterpreted as other things but really a self-projection of guilt associated to his actions.
When the youth was made aware that these actions were misdirected thought from his previous thinking as guilt, knowing full well that he knew the underlying reason for his actions, he broke down with emotions and acknowledge the truth behind his actions. It was not so much that he realized what he knew but that someone else could see and understood the truth, even though it was pulled out of him through leading questions that he was most willing to answer. The question that started the series of questions and answers, was "how did you become broken", where broken was in reference to his lameness. The answer spawned additional questions and answers, which eventually lead to the truth.

At any rate the professional was surprised, and acknowledge that now they had a beginning to work from, yet all the learning this professional had acquired, was for knot, because he based his initial opinion on what he was told and assumed it to be correct, causing a wall between him and his subject. Therefore, we can assume that our Father was behind the outcome of this circumstance, yet it was not necessary to ask Him first how to proceed, where faith in knowing how our Father operates is prayer enough for some.

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MidiChlorian wrote:
At any rate the professional was surprised, and acknowledge that now they had a beginning to work from, yet all the learning this professional had acquired, was for knot, because he based his initial opinion on what he was told and assumed it to be correct, causing a wall between him and his subject. Therefore, we can assume that our Father was behind the outcome of this circumstance, yet it was not necessary to ask Him first how to proceed, where faith in knowing how our Father operates is prayer enough for some.


Please allow me to clarify my account further, for fear of being misunderstood. The two persons of which I have shared with all of you a spiritual connection just happened to be patients of mine. It was not the doctor/patient relationship at that point. That consultation was over and we were connecting as one person to another person. And she was never my "subject". As the professional interaction had ended, we stood as equals before Father, as persons of his creation. This was mile two.

I disagree with you on it not being necessary to ask Father first. He is our First Source and Center. I do not know how Father operates, only that He does, and I have faith that He will help me every time I ask Him.


Louis


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toto wrote:
I disagree with you on it not being necessary to ask Father first. He is our First Source and Center. I do not know how Father operates, only that He does, and I have faith that He will help me every time I ask Him.

There is nothing wrong in asking, or praying for assistance, from God. This becomes a personal understanding for the individual, therefore, may not be the same for every individual. It is with a mandate, that this is the only way, where it becomes absolute for all to follow, where it should only be absolute to the individual.

"toto", your experience is yours and may also reflect to others, through their own experiences, where my use of "professional" has or had nothing to do with your example or experience, where it was my experience that not all so called "professionals" use their spiritual understanding when applying their learning, which has not been amplified through experience, as they would know themselves. You got to know the person whom you interacted with therefore were you able to assimilate on a personal level. There are far to many, professionals who take what they have learned from books and schooling only to apply this to an individual that they have not attempts to know as a person.

If one is God-conscious, it is not necessary, to assume that He will not guide one to do His will, even when He is not asked. If you are self-assured that He is with you, then that should be sufficient. If it works for you, then that's great, but it doesn't mean that it works the same way for others?

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(999.8) 91:6.5 Do not be so slothful as to ask God to solve your difficulties, but never hesitate to ask him for wisdom and spiritual strength to guide and sustain you while you yourself resolutely and courageously attack the problems at hand.

(999.9) 91:6.6 Prayer has been an indispensable factor in the progress and preservation of religious civilization, and it still has mighty contributions to make to the further enhancement and spiritualization of society if those who pray will only do so in the light of scientific facts, philosophic wisdom, intellectual sincerity, and spiritual faith. Pray as Jesus taught his disciples — honestly, unselfishly, with fairness, and without doubting.

(1000.1) 91:6.7 But the efficacy of prayer in the personal spiritual experience of the one who prays is in no way dependent on such a worshiper’s intellectual understanding, philosophic acumen, social level, cultural status, or other mortal acquirements. The psychic and spiritual concomitants of the prayer of faith are immediate, personal, and experiential. There is no other technique whereby every man, regardless of all other mortal accomplishments, can so effectively and immediately approach the threshold of that realm wherein he can communicate with his Maker, where the creature contacts with the reality of the Creator, with the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

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MidiChlorian wrote:
There is nothing wrong in asking, or praying for assistance, from God. This becomes a personal understanding for the individual, therefore, may not be the same for every individual. It is with a mandate, that this is the only way, where it becomes absolute for all to follow, where it should only be absolute to the individual.


Perhaps it not the only way, but it is "the way, the truth and the life" that is Jesus. In a multiple choice of ways, I choose His way.


MidiChlorian wrote:
...where it was my experience that not all so called "professionals" use their spiritual understanding when applying their learning,


Ya think! We are spiritual beings and a secular educational and training system can burry the spirit leanings of any person. I have spent half my life shedding the attitude that a patient is a "case" or a subject.


MidiChlorian wrote:
There are far to many, professionals who take what they have learned from books and schooling only to apply this to an individual that they have not attempts to know as a person.


Precisely Midi. Would you include TUB as one of those books? That is the very potential danger of TUB that Enno has been warning about. The books are not the problem, the problem is to think that one can learn from a book what one needs to know about a living, breathing person.


MidiChlorian wrote:
If one is God-conscious, it is not necessary, to assume that He will not guide one to do His will, even when He is not asked. If you are self-assured that He is with you, then that should be sufficient. If it works for you, then that's great, but it doesn't mean that it works the same way for others?



Even if one is God-conscious it is vitally necessary to practice His presence. "Ask and it shall be given You". There is only one way to reach the center of a circle from the circle itself. There are infinite radii but they all converge at the center. There is only one direction and that is inward.


Louis


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Hey Louis, you brought it up the other day about feeling something was in the air. I've been feeling it too.

There's going to be a rare total eclipse of the sun next month and it will span across the USA from coast to coast.

It will occur on August 21.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Hey Louis, you brought it up the other day about feeling something was in the air. I've been feeling it too.

There's going to be a rare total eclipse of the sun next month and it will span across the USA from coast to coast.

It will occur on August 21.



195:9.2 But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master's life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.


We can only hope and pray and wait and live life.


Louis


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toto wrote:
I am heartened by the discussion and arguments. We are spending the time to respond to each other. This time is love.


I was raised in southwest Florida. My father, brother and I were born in Miami. My father, brother, me and my mother, who was a descendant of Turkish emigrants that picked cotton in the Carolinas, moved across the state to Bonita Springs around 1958. We were poor but I don't remember going hungry. I remember one time when we had nothing for dinner, dad went out and caught a 6' eastern diamondback rattlesnake (alive) that he sold to the local Everglades Wonder Gardens for a dollar a foot. We feasted on bologna and white bread for a while. Some might say we were poor white trash.

If this thread is an example of love, I'm sorry to say that I'm amazed at what passes for love. It's more like ego appeasement which is just a shadow of love. I refer you to the allegory of Plato's cave. The Urantia Book is of the material world so it is just a shadow on the wall. It contains timeless truth that is meant to help prisoners turn away from shadows and see the energy of God raining down on them. Some call it being born again. Make no mistake, it is a very difficult thing to do. It takes great courage. Much easier to dwell in the shadows and convince yourself that ego appeasement is light and love. If you don't turn away from shadows, God cannot see you.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them".

regards, gray


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graybear13 wrote:
If this thread is an example of love, I'm sorry to say that I'm amazed at what passes for love. It's more like ego appeasement which is just a shadow of love. I refer you to the allegory of Plato's cave. The Urantia Book is of the material world so it is just a shadow on the wall. It contains timeless truth that is meant to help prisoners turn away from shadows and see the energy of God raining down on them. Some call it being born again. Make no mistake, it is a very difficult thing to do. It takes great courage. Much easier to dwell in the shadows and convince yourself that ego appeasement is light and love. If you don't turn away from shadows, God cannot see you.



Hi Gray, this is why we are blessed with forgiveness.


What Socrates is suggesting is that, for the prisoners, the shadows themselves would constitute reality, not aware that these are mere projections, images, inspired by real humans and animals outside the cave. In addition, the prisoners would assign “credit and prestige” to those among them that could quickly remember which shadows came before, predict which shadows would follow and name which shadows were normally associated.

In the next supposition Socrates describes the release of one prisoner who is freed and forced to turn and look towards the fire. He is informed that what he has been experiencing all of his life has no substance and that what he is now seeing, the carried objects, is the greater reality. The former prisoner is now asked to identify some of the carried objects but he is unable to. He is confused and still believes the shadows to be more real. When the freed one is then compelled to look directly at the fire, his eyes cannot bear the pain and turns away to run back to gazing at the carried objects he was previously presented with. While still in pain, the liberated one is then dragged out of the cave, only to augment his pain and discomfort with the intense radiant light of the Sun.

As his eyes adjust to the light of the Sun, he is at first only able to see shadows of things. He then see the reflections of things in the water. Finally, he comes to see things themselves, as they are. In his freedom he is then able to look at the stars and the moon by night. He comes to be able to look upon the Sun. One may look upon this whole scene as a caveman’s movie theater at a matinee, where you are blinded by the afternoon Sun as you exist the dark and confront the reality of your daily life after seeing a fantastical film.

This freed soul comes to the realization the the sun is the “...source of the seasons and the years, and is the steward of all things in the visible place, and is in a certain way the cause of all those things he and his companions had been seeing.”

Socrates then asks Plato’s brother, Glaucon, to evaluate the state that this emancipation had affected this man.

“Would not he remember his first home, what passed for wisdom there, and his fellow prisoners, and consider himself happy and them pitiful? And would not he disdain whatever honors, praises, and prizes were awarded there to the ones who guessed best which shadows followed which? Moreover, were he to return there, would not he be rather bad at their game, no longer being accustomed to the darkness? Would not it be said of him that he went up and came back with his eyes corrupted, and that it is not even worth trying to go up? And if they were somehow able to get their hands on the man who attempts to release and lead them up, would not they kill him?”

The difficulty in acclimatizing to the light makes it equally difficult to return to the darkness of the cave. Those prisoners left behind would infer from one returning to the disorientation of the cave’s darkness that the upward journey out of the cave had injured him and serves as a warning that they should not undertake a similar journey. Socrates surmises that the prisoners, if they could, would lash out and even kill any one who attempted to snatch them out of the safety and comfort of the cave.

Regardless of the hardships one would face upon returning from the light, Socrates insists that the enlightened must return to the cave to dutifully share in the lives of the prisoners. He is implying that the enlightened philosopher must descend from a continuous intelligible contemplation of the good in order to share in the visible lives of his fellow citizens for the well-being of the whole.

Socrates reflects on what he had discussed previously regarding the Analogy of the Sun and the Analogy of the Divided Line. Namely, he likens…

“ The region revealed through sight” - the ordinary objects we see around us - “to the prison home, and the light of the fire in it to the power of the Sun. And in applying the going up and the seeing of what is above to the soul’s journey to the intelligible place, you not mistake my expectation, since you do desire to hear it. A god doubtless knows if it happens to be true. At all events, this is the way the phenomena looks to me: in the region of the knowable the last thing to be seen, and that with considerable effort, is the idea of good; but once seen, it must be concluded that this is indeed the cause for all things of all that is right and beautiful - in the visible realm it gives birth to light and its sovereign; in the intelligible realm, it itself sovereign, it provided truth and intelligence. I also think that the sight of it is a prerequisite for intelligent conduct either of one’s own private affairs or of public business.”

After “returning from divine contemplations to human evils,” a man,

“Is graceless and looks quite ridiculous when - with his sight still dim and before he has gotten sufficiently accustomed to the surrounding darkness - he is compelled in courtrooms or elsewhere to contend about the shadows of justice or the representations of which they are the shadows, and to dispute about the way these things are understood by men who have never seen justice itself?”.

In this discourse, Socrates makes a distinction between two realms. One is ethereal, ideal, and is the higher reality. The other is the projected reality of the cave wall. This is the reality of what we perceive with our senses and measure with our instruments, a lower reality. TUB says that the source of all realities is the Infinite. The Infinite or higher reality exists and projects the finites realities in shadowy images on the screens of space as they are actualized in time.


130:4.1 The night before they left Alexandria Ganid and Jesus had a long visit with one of the government professors at the university who lectured on the teachings of Plato. Jesus interpreted for the learned Greek teacher but injected no teaching of his own in refutation of the Greek philosophy. Gonod was away on business that evening; so, after the professor had departed, the teacher and his pupil had a long and heart-to-heart talk about Plato's doctrines. While Jesus gave qualified approval of some of the Greek teachings which had to do with the theory that the material things of the world are shadowy reflections of invisible but more substantial spiritual realities, he sought to lay a more trustworthy foundation for the lad's thinking; so he began a long dissertation concerning the nature of reality in the universe. In substance and in modern phraseology Jesus said to Ganid:

130:4.2 The source of universe reality is the Infinite. The material things of finite creation are the time-space repercussions of the Paradise Pattern and the Universal Mind of the eternal God. Causation in the physical world, self-consciousness in the intellectual world, and progressing selfhood in the spirit world—these realities, projected on a universal scale, combined in eternal relatedness, and experienced with perfection of quality and divinity of value—constitute the reality of the Supreme. But in an ever-changing universe the Original Personality of causation, intelligence, and spirit experience is changeless, absolute. All things, even in an eternal universe of limitless values and divine qualities, may, and oftentimes do, change except the Absolutes and that which has attained the physical status, intellectual embrace, or spiritual identity which is absolute.



graybear13 wrote:
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them".


Yes and that is why there exists redemption and forgiveness. Jesus is the redeemer.


Louis


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Louis,
Very interesting and helpful post! I appreciate the way you showed the parallels between Socrates' teachings and Jesus'. Pretty mind blowing!

I do want to make one comment about your statement, below.

toto wrote:
graybear13 wrote:
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them".


Yes and that is why there exists redemption and forgiveness. Jesus is the redeemer.


Louis


It's not really consistent with TUB to say that Jesus is the redeemer. I understand where you're coming from, but words matter, so perhaps the idea of forgiveness as something we do for our brothers and for ourselves. We forgive our brothers and ourselves and then we are also forgiven.

188:4.7 (2017.2) Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.

188:4.8 (2017.3) When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

170:2.23 (1861.5) Jesus taught that sin is not the child of a defective nature but rather the offspring of a knowing mind dominated by an unsubmissive will. Regarding sin, he taught that God has forgiven; that we make such forgiveness personally available by the act of forgiving our fellows. When you forgive your brother in the flesh, you thereby create the capacity in your own soul for the reception of the reality of God’s forgiveness of your own misdeeds.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
It's not really consistent with TUB to say that Jesus is the redeemer.


Very True Agon. I forgot that quote and erred in confusing my recalling my kindergarten Bible teachings.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
188:4.7 (2017.2) Though it is hardly proper to speak of Jesus as a sacrificer, a ransomer, or a redeemer, it is wholly correct to refer to him as a savior. He forever made the way of salvation (survival) more clear and certain; he did better and more surely show the way of salvation for all the mortals of all the worlds of the universe of Nebadon.


Words are very important and meanings even more. Even though Jesus is not a redeemer, we more easily find redemption in Him. Would you agree? Or do you think that this is also old time Christianity?


Louis


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If by "redemption" you mean eternal survival then yes, I agree. That would be consistent with TUB.


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