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Agon D. Onter wrote:
If by "redemption" you mean eternal survival then yes, I agree. That would be consistent with TUB.


Ok then. Old habits die hard and I went to kindergarten at "The Church of the Redeemer". My medical partner is a fundamentalist Baptist and we have had quite a few discussions about sacrifice, and the meaning of Jesus' death on the cross. He obviously thinks that I am a heretic and that TUB is the book of the devil, so I have stopped going there.

He recently called me an "enigma". I didn't know how to take that so I think it means that he is confused about me. I've played it safe with him for some time now and got him to agree that we are united in spirit but not uniform in thought. Him and I can agree on Jesus being our Lord and Savior. I often wonder if the words that matter, matter more than our relationships with our brothers. In other words, do words get in the way? Just thinking.


Louis


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toto wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
If by "redemption" you mean eternal survival then yes, I agree. That would be consistent with TUB.


Ok then. Old habits die hard and I went to kindergarten at "The Church of the Redeemer". My medical partner is a fundamentalist Baptist and we have had quite a few discussions about sacrifice, and the meaning of Jesus' death on the cross. He obviously thinks that I am a heretic and that TUB is the book of the devil, so I have stopped going there.

He recently called me an "enigma". I didn't know how to take that so I think it means that he is confused about me. I've played it safe with him for some time now and got him to agree that we are united in spirit but not uniform in thought. Him and I can agree on Jesus being our Lord and Savior. I often wonder if the words that matter, matter more than our relationships with our brothers. In other words, do words get in the way? Just thinking.


Louis

You know Louis, I think many of us have had similar situations occur with our friends and families. It's pretty much a deathnell when the "Jesus didn't die for your sins" cat gets out of the bag with Christians. Yeah, now your an enigma for good.

I look at it this way. If that's the worst of the discomfort I'll have to experience, well, it pales in comparison to what Jesus endured by speaking the truth. In fact it's sort of a badge of honor isn't it?

Eventually all of the truth about these things will be revealed. And, unless the sky opens and an elderly bearded man with a deep voice appears making proclamation of what's true and what's not; it will fall on us to do, one man and one woman at a time.

But then there's that pesky problem. What the left hand should know about what the right hand is doing.

Enno


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nodAmanaV wrote:
But then there's that pesky problem. What the left hand should know about what the right hand is doing.


I think that maybe we should harken back to what we learned in kindergarten. Mrs Pointer would tell us to bow our heads and fold our hands and pray. The right and left hands are both doing the same thing in mirror image. Afterwards we do our work and eagerly await recess.

Seems like it holds true today.


Louis


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toto wrote:
graybear13 wrote:
"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them".


Yes and that is why there exists redemption and forgiveness. Jesus is the redeemer.


Louis


Hi Louis,

I think there is a limit to forgiveness. "Had you not been told, then you would be without sin."

I applaud the thought adjusters of Plato and Socrates for helping create the allegory of the cave. I am a scientist so I see the allegory of the cave as a story of the creation of the matters. The light is the emergent energy, the puppet showmen on the roadway represent the disturbances in the flow of ultimatons caused in large part by gravity and the shadows cast on the wall are everything we see in nature and the cosmos. My thought adjuster gave me a true understanding of gravity over thirty years ago. I wasn't reading TUB at the time. It felt like an epiphany and caused me to set upon a scientific path to prove what I was given. So far I am just a Cassandra, not of disaster but of a golden age of physics. :smile:

regards, gray


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graybear13 wrote:
I think there is a limit to forgiveness.


Do you really think this Gray?

139:2.5 The one trait which Peter most admired in Jesus was his supernal tenderness. Peter never grew weary of contemplating Jesus' forbearance. He never forgot the lesson about forgiving the wrongdoer, not only seven times but seventy times and seven. He thought much about these impressions of the Master's forgiving character during those dark and dismal days immediately following his thoughtless and unintended denial of Jesus in the high priest's courtyard.

Is this the limit that you are referring to?


graybear13 wrote:
My thought adjuster gave me a true understanding of gravity over thirty years ago.


Do you understand that the electric motor is an inductor of linear gravity? Can you see that the field of linear gravity IS the electromagnetic field in disguise? There is only one field because TUB clearly states that gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.


0:6.11 ...Pattern may configure energy, but it does not control it. Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter. Neither space nor pattern are gravity responsive, but there is no relationship between space and pattern; space is neither pattern nor potential...

Louis


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toto wrote:
Do you understand that the electric motor is an inductor of linear gravity? Can you see that the field of linear gravity IS the electromagnetic field in disguise? There is only one field because TUB clearly states that gravity is the sole control of energy-matter.


0:6.11 ...Pattern may configure energy, but it does not control it. Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter. Neither space nor pattern are gravity responsive, but there is no relationship between space and pattern; space is neither pattern nor potential...


The electric motor is not an inductor of linear gravity. Linear gravity causes the electronic organization of matter, not the other way around.

The reason gravity is in sole control of energy-matter is because it is what creates the atomic fire and it is what feeds the atomic fire.

I agree with you that there is only one, unified field. In my view it is the emergent untimatonic field of zero point energy. Disturbances in this energy field begin with gravity and move through many guises to become all of creation. Linear gravity is the flow of emergent ultimatonic energy into matter. We are caught in the flow of ultimatons that is caused by the incessant pull of earth's linear gravity and that pushes us toward the earth.

regards, gray


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Hi Gray,

graybear13 wrote:
The electric motor is not an inductor of linear gravity. Linear gravity causes the electronic organization of matter, not the other way around.


A poor choice of words on my part. Yes, linear gravity is the cause, but the motor does not spin unless we set up a potential. The magnets are the linear gravity field and electronic organization is pushed through this field and rotation occur in this motor devise. Yes, the field comes first but then the motion of electrons in this field is a secondary cause of spin. As conversely, spin in this devise secondarily causes current.

Where do you suppose absolute gravity comes into play?

Louis


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toto wrote:
Where do you suppose absolute gravity comes into play?


Hi Louis,

I'm sure that God is in control of absolute gravity and the emergent energy field that he controls with paradise gravity. All of this is in the beginning and is what gives birth to linear gravity. The beginning of the field has to be taken on faith, but linear gravity can be understood by our primitive minds and proven to be a process that has absolutely nothing to do with electromagnetism. The out come of linear gravity-is-electromagnetism. Linear gravity lives in and around electrons and all atomic, subatomic and sub-nuclear particles, feeding them energy that allows them to perform their tasks of creative forces.

Back to the subject of the this thread. I do believe that there is a limit to forgiveness. Jesus said as he was dying on the cross "father forgive them for they know not what they do". If it happens again, Katie bar the door. That, of course, will include ignoring science that could save the lives of thousands if not millions of brothers and sisters who are being sacrificed because of an I don't care it's out of my hands, attitude. The release of the "papers" was delayed because of political considerations and now we are behind the eight ball trying to play catch up. I hear in this forum "don't worry about it, just relax and let time heal the pain. Tell that to those who suffer and die every day because of the struggle between world powers to capture and control the worlds fossil fuel reserves. If we do not make every effort to move to a gravity based energy source, as eluded to in TUB, I don't think we deserve forgiveness.

regards, gray


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graybear13 wrote:
Back to the subject of the this thread. I do believe that there is a limit to forgiveness. Jesus said as he was dying on the cross "father forgive them for they know not what they do".


Hi Gray,

I suppose that this forgiveness would require a fatherly love.


140:5.24 Fatherly love delights in returning good for evil—doing good in retaliation for injustice.

Do you think that returning good for evil is possible with a limit on forgiveness?


Louis


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toto wrote:
graybear13 wrote:
Back to the subject of the this thread. I do believe that there is a limit to forgiveness. Jesus said as he was dying on the cross "father forgive them for they know not what they do".


Hi Gray,

I suppose that this forgiveness would require a fatherly love.


140:5.24 Fatherly love delights in returning good for evil—doing good in retaliation for injustice.

Do you think that returning good for evil is possible with a limit on forgiveness?


Louis


Hi Louis,

An allegory on the second coming of Christ...If someone comes and tortures my son to death and I forgive them and help them repent their evil ways, good for me, but if they come back and torture my daughter to death, they would not deserve my forgiveness because they were told. "Had you not been told, you would be without sin."

At some point a judgment has to made by God whether the consequences of the sin outweigh any forgiveness, otherwise we will all move on to eternal life. I think that is unlikely.

regards, gray


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graybear13 wrote:
At some point a judgment has to made by God whether the consequences of the sin outweigh any forgiveness, otherwise we will all move on to eternal life. I think that is unlikely.



Is this not the point when the individual rejects reality altogether and can no longer receive forgiveness?


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The Memory of Mercy and associated mercy credit discussed in paper 28 are relevant here. "In revealing the Father’s pre-existent mercy, the Sons of God establish the necessary credit to insure the survival of all." ...


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
The Memory of Mercy and associated mercy credit discussed in paper 28 are relevant here. "In revealing the Father’s pre-existent mercy, the Sons of God establish the necessary credit to insure the survival of all." ...


God's love and tender mercy in the endless pursuit of the lost, no matter how or where or why, as exemplified in the parables has been a source of joy and inspiration and comfort since I was a lad in Bible School.  The UB elevates and amplifies this message in countless places and ways to open our minds to this fact of universe reality...the endless stream of love that saturates the universes of time and space.

This is why I am baffled by any student of the Papers who remains skeptical of our safe keeping in this friendly universe or fears for our planet's destiny or the absolute fairness inherent in the applications of mercy and judgement.  For mercy is endless, or nearly so, and judgement is but a function of personal free will and conscious rejection of reality....love and mercy must be rejected.  Forgiveness is not extended, it exists universally as a function of personal repentance, simply that personal desire to find God and become more and more like Him.

These parables illuminate that great love, endless patience, extended mercy, and the persistent pursuit of all who are 'lost' or mired and confused and anxious by their ignorance of reality itself.

The mythology of an angry God who is vengeful is so primitive. Not how the reality works at all. Did not the Master say... "Forgive them for they know NOT what they do."? One is never condemned by what they do not know. Sin carries the seed of its own destruction...it is not destroyed by God or eternal damnation and suffering...it is destroyed by its irrelevancy to reality and that requires a conscious, knowing, complete rejection OF the realities of love, mercy, and forgiveness. Or that is what the Papers teach...believe it or not.

(1850.8) 169:1.1 On Thursday afternoon Jesus talked to the multitude about the “Grace of Salvation.” In the course of this sermon he retold the story of the lost sheep and the lost coin and then added his favorite parable of the prodigal son. Said Jesus:

(1850.9) 169:1.2 “You have been admonished by the prophets from Samuel to John that you should seek for God — search for truth. Always have they said, ‘Seek the Lord while he may be found.’ And all such teaching should be taken to heart. But I have come to show you that, while you are seeking to find God, God is likewise seeking to find you. Many times have I told you the story of the good shepherd who left the ninety and nine sheep in the fold while he went forth searching for the one that was lost, and how, when he had found the straying sheep, he laid it over his shoulder and tenderly carried it back to the fold. And when the lost sheep had been restored to the fold, you remember that the good shepherd called in his friends and bade them rejoice with him over the finding of the sheep that had been lost. Again I say there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over the ninety and nine just persons who need no repentance. The fact that souls are lost only increases the interest of the heavenly Father. I have come to this world to do my Father’s bidding, and it has truly been said of the Son of Man that he is a friend of publicans and sinners.

(1851.1) 169:1.3 “You have been taught that divine acceptance comes after your repentance and as a result of all your works of sacrifice and penitence, but I assure you that the Father accepts you even before you have repented and sends the Son and his associates to find you and bring you, with rejoicing, back to the fold, the kingdom of sonship and spiritual progress. You are all like sheep which have gone astray, and I have come to seek and to save those who are lost.

(1851.2) 169:1.4 “And you should also remember the story of the woman who, having had ten pieces of silver made into a necklace of adornment, lost one piece, and how she lit the lamp and diligently swept the house and kept up the search until she found the lost piece of silver. And as soon as she found the coin that was lost, she called together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece that was lost.’ So again I say, there is always joy in the presence of the angels of heaven over one sinner who repents and returns to the Father’s fold. And I tell you this story to impress upon you that the Father and his Son go forth to search for those who are lost, and in this search we employ all influences capable of rendering assistance in our diligent efforts to find those who are lost, those who stand in need of salvation. And so, while the Son of Man goes out in the wilderness to seek for the sheep gone astray, he also searches for the coin which is lost in the house. The sheep wanders away, unintentionally; the coin is covered by the dust of time and obscured by the accumulation of the things of men.

:wink: :idea: 8)


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We are living in an angry time and the views of so many reflect this.


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See, but that's the problem. There will always be 'angry times'. Think of the politics and societal divisions that existed during Jesus' incarnation. But his perspective on the world didn't reflect that anger and division. He rose above all that and exemplified brotherly love, tolerance, tact, graciousness, kindness, empathy and patience.

The world will never reach the state of Light and Life if we all submit to the anger around us or allow it to create fear and doubt. We are agondonters! We press on and life's vicissitudes only make us stronger.


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