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fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Enno! Yes, some ponderments take longer than others! :D

Actually I am still keen to hear you articulate the "deeper meaning and purpose of this thread". And how I might have displayed those. I look forward to that. The topic has been a real trender these past two years!

Glad you are here! What are the "DANGERS OF THE URANTIA BOOK" again?

8)

Perhaps it's tied up with the struggle of discovering the deeper meanings of the Urantia Book's revelations vs the inclination to become overwelmed by taking too much of what it says literally instead of spiritually.

In my opinion, the most important thing about it, is learning how to become better and more effective in being an ambassador of the Gospel of the Kingdom in every facet of life. Which includes the activities of being a posting member of this online study group forum.


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Interesting treatise on TUB. Out of curiosity who is the author, nodAmanaV? Not that it really matters. I am just curious. If the person prefers to remain anonymous, I respect that.

I think, in a general sense, what this person proposes rings true. But one could apply his/her critique to any scripture or holy text, not just TUB. Religious truth is not always dependent on fact, and when it is not, it requires the believer to take a leap in faith into its words. TUB is no exception to this reality.

I do not find that TUB is a dangerous book. I have read far more dangerous materials to the mind than the revelations. In any event, how does the author know it was evil midwayers who made it possible for the book's publishing?

I can agree with this point:

Quote:
"Convoluted, abstract, and philosophical language never proceeds from God"


I think TUB does come off pretentious in writing style which leads me to believe either human agents influenced the language of the revelation (Sadler's writings have similar syntax as TUB's) or celestial agents have character flaws just like us.



nodAmanaV wrote:
I've posted the following by permission. Although I don't agree with everything stated, what's at the core is resoundingly true.


The DANGERS of the URANTIA BOOK

The Urantia Book (UB) was published in the middle of the 20th Century after having been translated and edited, by God's permission, by fallen Midway Creatures, in order to ensure its publication.  For an evil world will not publish a good book.  The UB had to be so presented to the world so as to attract the wicked in society, those who reject the truths of the Bible, to publish it, as so by God's will to expose the world to the critical 1st section of the book.  The fact that the heads of state, by and large, are veritable rebels against God attests to the truth that this world (earth/"Urantia") is in fact evil, wherein evil is both out of control and in control.

The concepts of the UB are from God and are indeed wholesome and salutary, but the translation and edition do not proceed from Him, but are permitted by Him, or else the UB would NEVER HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED.  Convoluted, abstract, and philosophical language never proceeds from God.  God is simple and forthright.  God allowed evil Midwayers to edit out of the UB all references pertaining to the consequences of wilful evil in the afterworld.  And as they consider Islam to be their pet religion, they carefully removed all references denigrating Islam.  The UB does not consequently, in its present edition,  have the power of grace to transform lives into righteousness as the Bible in fact does.

The ensuing result is that Urantia Book readers (UBers) are, for the most part (in the event of those who virulently reject the Bible), quick and ready to identify themselves with the most wicked elements in society - - violent crime, perversion, Islam, rebellion, wilful ignorance, and strenuous opposition to justice and righteousness.  These UBers are characterized by the following: the inability to reason, lack of common sense, the inclination to exercise cruel and unjust tyranny over those who seek after justice and righteousness; and they readily flee from anything which they are incapable of refuting.

Therefore I say that the Urantia Book is only meant and intended by God for the benefit of those who have MASTERED and fully benefited from the Bible.  Those who profess the Bible to be 100% infallible true and accurate profess thereby that they do not really KNOW the Bible.  Therefore they are exceedingly few who have truly mastered the book and consequently come to admit that this book has its serious problems, as the Ancient Fathers likewise admitted.  God graced the world with the Bible for very many centuries as this is the Introductory Book to the ways of salvation.  And the Urantia Book is a book of ADVANCED revelation to supplement the Bible wherein it lacks.  Just as men were incapable of receiving ALL truth in past times, so are they today.  Both the Bible and the Urantia Book are, by the will of God, flawed books, because men cannot handle ALL truth.  Those who rashly reject the salutary truths of the Bible will not receive from God the grace to understand the Urantia Book correctly.  Therefore, unless you are confirmed by the sealing of the Holy Spirit and are transformed in Jesus Christ, I would caution you to regard the Urantia Book as a dangerous book, one which will not lead and guide you to the everlasting presence of God.  The UB in several places makes it EXCEEDINLY CLEAR that only those who adopt the perfection of the Universal Father will proceed on to the 2nd Mansion World and then on to Havona.  Men of good will can obtain truth only from the Father Within Who alone is infallible, and only those who love righteousness will hear Him.

_________________
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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:53 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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"Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals." (146:3.2)

No sophistry, no argument, and no persuasion will ever sway me from the truth of the Urantia Book.

"The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained." (48:7.30)

"And so I give you this new commandment: That you love one another even as I have loved you. And by this will all men know that you are my disciples if you thus love one another." (180:1.1)


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the original essay not belonging to any sect or culture. The original contributor was expressing his own opinion, and the trepidation & denial intonated reflects nothing more than his own perspective.

there cannot be compromise in the attitude against Islam. Because it is for all the various religious beliefs, according to the discovery of Ganid, to come into the acceptance of the Urantia Book. You too maybe would like to assert Christianity as somehow more progressive?

when we look forwards, children shall find the urantia book more discipherable than the bible. there are more explicit lessons than implicit, after all. there is less mystery; its length does not pose as great a deterrent as in the 1960's when the urantia papers were being discovered. furthermore, there is none especial movement like the hippies who first read the urantia papers, none especial former religion to adopt its text and create better harmony

you will have to give up the bible in order to understand the urantia book. that is probably true. give it up and let the lessons you have gained resonate with your new experiences. in fact, there is less thumping, authoritarianism, doctrinal imposition in the past 100 years.

you have to understand the relationship that you have with the plethora of angelic beings who grace our world. if you can take the descriptions as nothing but the elucidations of pre-existing relationships, then you must called to operate within the higher and higher planes of existence, wherein you become aware of the colours and the forms of angeln.

older generations, always faced with the challenge of settled opinions. religion is not different. I do not understand how a church with a lock on its door 6 days of the week might survive. I have always wanted to be a porter, to welcome a person through the gates of the temple, but such profession has not existed for some time.


this world urantia is not evil. it is I who am evil, the human individual. I cannot in this wise blame my home for my failings and aversion to God's rule. I realise that what the original post, suggests that we must learn to live more righteously. I cannot fathom how jesus, or the appearance of jesus in the fourth gospel of urantia papers, would even disagree.

the one major difference between the character of Apostles in the Bible versus Urantia Book: Peter was a father. Mathew Levi was a father. Jesus from a large family, the accurate picture of a stable functioning household, who formed the alliance with Salome & David Zebedee house. you cannot depend on the hermetic vision of the master Jesus, any longer. this farm family of joseph & mary instructs the psychology of interdependency home life.

I think he is wrong Urantia Papers easier to read than Bible.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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To those of you who are constantly trying to find fault in the Urantia Book: Why?


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pethuel wrote:
To those of you who are constantly trying to find fault in the Urantia Book: Why?


Good question.

Enno??

BB??

nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Greetings Enno! Yes, some ponderments take longer than others! :D

Actually I am still keen to hear you articulate the "deeper meaning and purpose of this thread". And how I might have displayed those. I look forward to that. The topic has been a real trender these past two years!

Glad you are here! What are the "DANGERS OF THE URANTIA BOOK" again?

8)

Perhaps it's tied up with the struggle of discovering the deeper meanings of the Urantia Book's revelations vs the inclination to become overwelmed by taking too much of what it says literally instead of spiritually.

In my opinion, the most important thing about it, is learning how to become better and more effective in being an ambassador of the Gospel of the Kingdom in every facet of life. Which includes the activities of being a posting member of this online study group forum.


So....you feel overwhelmed? Or you think others are? All others? Some others? Which others?

You think there are deeper meanings than are described in a literal reading and study and understanding? And you think a literal reading, study, and understanding is not spiritual and spiritually transforming?

What does "the inclination to become overwhelmed" even mean?

You believe this declaration of yours as titled and defended here is effective as an "ambassador" of the Jesusonian Gospel? Really!!??

So then....you still believe this declaration that the UB is a dangerous book...as an ambassador of truth.

And defend it still. Hmmm.....

We shall see......and thanks for the clarification and update.

8)


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(140:10.4) This same evening Thomas asked Jesus: "Master, you say that we must become as little children before we can gain entrance to the Father's kingdom, and yet you have warned us not to be deceived by false prophets nor to become guilty of casting our pearls before swine. Now, I am honestly puzzled. I cannot understand your teaching." Jesus replied to Thomas: "How long shall I bear with you! Ever you insist on making literal all that I teach. When I asked you to become as little children as the price of entering the kingdom, I referred not to ease of deception, mere willingness to believe, nor to quickness to trust pleasing strangers. What I did desire that you should gather from the illustration was the child-father relationship. You are the child, and it is your Father's kingdom you seek to enter. There is present that natural affection between every normal child and its father which insures an understanding and loving relationship, and which forever precludes all disposition to bargain for the Father's love and mercy. And the gospel you are going forth to preach has to do with a salvation growing out of the faith-realization of this very and eternal child-father relationship."

What does that say spiritually about making literal all that the Urantia Book teaches fanofVan?


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SEla,

Thank you for your wonderful insight. What a pleasure to have you share this.

Jim

Quote:
the original essay not belonging to any sect or culture. The original contributor was expressing his own opinion, and the trepidation & denial intonated reflects nothing more than his own perspective.

there cannot be compromise in the attitude against Islam. Because it is for all the various religious beliefs, according to the discovery of Ganid, to come into the acceptance of the Urantia Book. You too maybe would like to assert Christianity as somehow more progressive?

when we look forwards, children shall find the urantia book more discipherable than the bible. there are more explicit lessons than implicit, after all. there is less mystery; its length does not pose as great a deterrent as in the 1960's when the urantia papers were being discovered. furthermore, there is none especial movement like the hippies who first read the urantia papers, none especial former religion to adopt its text and create better harmony

you will have to give up the bible in order to understand the urantia book. that is probably true. give it up and let the lessons you have gained resonate with your new experiences. in fact, there is less thumping, authoritarianism, doctrinal imposition in the past 100 years.

you have to understand the relationship that you have with the plethora of angelic beings who grace our world. if you can take the descriptions as nothing but the elucidations of pre-existing relationships, then you must called to operate within the higher and higher planes of existence, wherein you become aware of the colours and the forms of angeln.

older generations, always faced with the challenge of settled opinions. religion is not different. I do not understand how a church with a lock on its door 6 days of the week might survive. I have always wanted to be a porter, to welcome a person through the gates of the temple, but such profession has not existed for some time.


this world urantia is not evil. it is I who am evil, the human individual. I cannot in this wise blame my home for my failings and aversion to God's rule. I realise that what the original post, suggests that we must learn to live more righteously. I cannot fathom how jesus, or the appearance of jesus in the fourth gospel of urantia papers, would even disagree.

the one major difference between the character of Apostles in the Bible versus Urantia Book: Peter was a father. Mathew Levi was a father. Jesus from a large family, the accurate picture of a stable functioning household, who formed the alliance with Salome & David Zebedee house. you cannot depend on the hermetic vision of the master Jesus, any longer. this farm family of joseph & mary instructs the psychology of interdependency home life.

I think he is wrong Urantia Papers easier to read than Bible.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
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(140:10.4) This same evening Thomas asked Jesus: "Master, you say that we must become as little children before we can gain entrance to the Father's kingdom, and yet you have warned us not to be deceived by false prophets nor to become guilty of casting our pearls before swine. Now, I am honestly puzzled. I cannot understand your teaching." Jesus replied to Thomas: "How long shall I bear with you! Ever you insist on making literal all that I teach. When I asked you to become as little children as the price of entering the kingdom, I referred not to ease of deception, mere willingness to believe, nor to quickness to trust pleasing strangers. What I did desire that you should gather from the illustration was the child-father relationship. You are the child, and it is your Father's kingdom you seek to enter. There is present that natural affection between every normal child and its father which insures an understanding and loving relationship, and which forever precludes all disposition to bargain for the Father's love and mercy. And the gospel you are going forth to preach has to do with a salvation growing out of the faith-realization of this very and eternal child-father relationship."

What does that say spiritually about making literal all that the Urantia Book teaches fanofVan?


So....no answer then to pethuel's simple question??

Or to any of mine? Not surprising...your usual m.o. - nod's rope-a-dope...never answer questions except with a question; coy and clever if obtuse and lacking all meaning and value.

The quote you ask about means, to me, that Jesus employed parables, similies, stories, and other methods in addition to direct and factual teachings of knowledge to be understood literally.

We also know that the UB authors claim the UB is literally a factual book of knowledge of universe reality, origins, destiny, organization, and relationships given to us to literally reduce confusion and eliminate errors of concept and perspective.

Do you find something ambiguous about that fact and claim of the authors?

And it is written so that new meanings are discovered within the same facts by a maturing mind of discerment.

It is unfortunate you are so overwhelmed by the literal presentation of universe reality...or was that an accusation toward other believers and students?

It is also unfortunate that you defend this thread as the thoughts and acts of an ambassador of the Jesusonian Gospel by declaring this Epochal Revelation to be a dangerous book at a community of its students and believers.

8)


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In the forward we read,
Quote:
But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.


This Divine Counselor isn't imploring us to know simply the facts herein presented, but to willingly discover the reality of a "personal religious experience"; such an experience as will assist us in the appropriation of all truth which is spiritual, not merely a discernment of fact.

Literal understanding of facts isn't wrong, it is the right approach to facts, but it is only the base from which we must all venture inward to discover the reality of personal spiritual experience.


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Jim George wrote:
In the forward we read,
Quote:
But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.


This Divine Counselor isn't imploring us to know simply the facts herein presented, but to willingly discover the reality of a "personal religious experience"; such an experience as will assist us in the appropriation of all truth which is spiritual, not merely a discernment of fact.

Literal understanding of facts isn't wrong, it is the right approach to facts, but it is only the base from which we must all venture inward to discover the reality of personal spiritual experience.


As the Revelation so clearly, factually, and literally says and teaches itself. Papers 100-103 are recommended regarding our personal spiritualization and religious experience.

Indeed, the point and purpose of such a factual and literal presentation of universe reality by Epochal Revelation is its inherent relationship to and partnership with personal revelation...neither excludes the other and both depend upon the other...or so the discerning believer discovers to be true... and so the U B teaches us....literally!*


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:25 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I believe we're on the same page in that regard, Jim George. I too am of the opinion the literal text is but a baseline upon which truth, which is infinite in measure, rests. The baseline (facts) of the text could serve as a common ground for all readers of diverse views. But the revelation is more than facts, otherwise, what need would there be for a Father fragment to indwell the human mind?

The issue, I think, is there is a faction within the readership that wants to standardize both teaching and understanding of the text, and impose its will on all member readers of the online Urantia community. Evolutionary religion (organized religion) and its Churches operates in this manner. Authorities of these religions uniform the teachings and understanding of their respective Holy text, dispense them to the parishioners, and excommunicate those unwilling to deny themselves freedom of thought.

The Urantia Foundation and Fellowship are no Churches, thus, without a specific creed. If memory serves correctly (I may be wrong,) there was an attempt to organize a Urantia Church. At any rate, I contend the Celestials prefer not that the book takes that path. Placing limits on freedom of TA expression is antithetic to mortal ascension.

I wish the readership, as an aggregate, would see the benefits in individual, autorevelatory truth.

My two-cents.

Jim George wrote:
Literal understanding of facts isn't wrong, it is the right approach to facts, but it is only the base from which we must all venture inward to discover the reality of personal spiritual experience.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
I believe we're on the same page in that regard, Jim George. I too am of the opinion the literal text is but a baseline upon which truth, which is infinite in measure, rests. The baseline (facts) of the text could serve as a common ground for all readers of diverse views. But the revelation is more than facts, otherwise, what need would there be for a Father fragment to indwell the human mind?

The issue, I think, is there is a faction within the readership that wants to standardize both teaching and understanding of the text, and impose its will on all member readers of the online Urantia community. Evolutionary religion (organized religion) and its Churches operates in this manner. Authorities of these religions uniform the teachings and understanding of their respective Holy text, dispense them to the parishioners, and excommunicate those unwilling to deny themselves freedom of thought.

The Urantia Foundation and Fellowship are no Churches, thus, without a specific creed. If memory serves correctly (I may be wrong,) there was an attempt to organize a Urantia Church. At any rate, I contend the Celestials prefer not that the book takes that path. Placing limits on freedom of TA expression is antithetic to mortal ascension.

I wish the readership, as an aggregate, would see the benefits in individual, autorevelatory truth.

My two-cents.

Jim George wrote:
Literal understanding of facts isn't wrong, it is the right approach to facts, but it is only the base from which we must all venture inward to discover the reality of personal spiritual experience.


The literal presentations and the belief in and practice of the teachings clearly coordinates, harmonizes, and relies upon both forms of revelation - epochal and personal. Again, it is not one or the other- a false and blind choice. Otherwise you are a one-eyed believer lacking important perspective ignoring universe reality. Faith + knowledge is advised by those who should...and do...know! Why make such a self limiting choice....and preach it here?!

:roll:

Oh, and Jim has himself started a Urantia Church several years ago and is a minister/preacher. There's a topical thread about it here started by another church leader and partner of Jim's, Robert Sarmast. They have chosen a set of creeds and doctrines for their flock based on the UB. Been around a long time and relaunched a year ago with a new name and website. I hope for their success at winning souls for the Kingdom!

But am glad and prefer that the major organizations of dissemination have shunned all forms of religious authority and enangelism. There is work for all in the sowing of truth.


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:35 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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Returning to mu original question:


pethuel wrote:
To those of you who are constantly trying to find fault in the Urantia Book: Why?

Why are you saying these things that are apparently against the Papers and their authors. First of all, "fallen midwayers" do not have the authority or the ability to make the statements made in the early chapters of the revelation. For me end of discussion. I know experientially that the authority of the Urantia Book is superior to the Bible, although I owe many years of spiritual growth to the truth of God as presented in the Old and New Testament. My initial genuine contact with the Urantia Book was a new chapter in an unfolding story of ME.

I can now grow, freed from the fetters of evangelical interpretations of the message of Michael of Nebadon. If some of you have problems with the language, or Dr. Sadler then start your own fishing hole instead of looking for converts in the fertile fields of this fellowship.


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So BB now calls himself the UrantianGnostic...an oxymoron which actually defies and contradicts the UB.

According to wiki, Gnostics believe the material realm is evil, the world's creator is an evil, lesser Deity, God is unknowable, and salvation requires secret knowledge....salvation is knowledge based, not a function of faith, love, and mercy.

Perhaps BB has also redefined another word to his own purposes again?

:roll:


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