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Here's a repost of my questions too...which were similarly ignored:

Is God simple?

Is Islam the religion of the rebel midwayers?

Are UB readers wicked? Is the Bible a "revelation"?

Is Urantia evil?

Are you expecting another "edition" of the 5th Epochal Revelation?

Have I and other UB readers rejected the Bible...or have we discovered new ways to appreciate its value to humanity BECAUSE of the UB?

And do I (and other students) suffer from "the inability to reason, lack of common sense, the inclination to exercise cruel and unjust tyranny over those who seek after justice and righteousness; and they readily flee from anything which they are incapable of refuting."?

Who are the "Ancient Fathers"?

What does it mean to have "Mastered" the Bible? What parts of the Bible are "salutary truths" and which are not?

What does it mean to "adopt the perfection of the Universal Father"?

nod - you began this discussion and even had the audacity to name the thread "The DANGERS of the UB". I assume this means, by your titling, that you believe in such dangers and specifically those listed by your cousin. Please stay focused on the claims made in your post and the discussion resulting thereby. Thank you.

:? 8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I hope you don't think this is a random quote Agon:

(155:6.5) The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you.


I thought it was only those who Mastered the Bible (and UB?) which know the "truth"? And those "sealed" by the Holy Spirit (whatever that might mean).

What is the value of knowledge nod? Can those without knowledge but with faith also find truth? How about those with knowledge but no faith? What's the UB say about faith and its transformative powers?


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I hope you don't think this is a random quote Agon:

(155:6.5) The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you.


This quote is not random in the context of the topic of this thread; it is very relevant and thank you for pointing out. I'm puzzled, though, why you did not post the entire quote? You cherry-picked one sentence from what is actually a very enlightening TUB teaching in relation to your cousin's FB post that you started this thread with.

Let's examine the TUB quote you are using, with more context.

Quote:
155:6.5 (1731.3) While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. My Father does not require of you as the price of entering the kingdom of heaven that you should force yourself to subscribe to a belief in things which are spiritually repugnant, unholy, and untruthful. It is not required of you that your own sense of mercy, justice, and truth should be outraged by submission to an outworn system of religious forms and ceremonies. The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. And who can judge — perhaps this spirit may have something to impart to this generation which other generations have refused to hear?


Me here, the next paragraph is even more relevant.

Quote:
155:6.6 (1731.4) Shame on those false religious teachers who would drag hungry souls back into the dim and distant past and there leave them! And so are these unfortunate persons doomed to become frightened by every new discovery, while they are discomfited by every new revelation of truth. The prophet who said, “He will be kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on God,” was not a mere intellectual believer in authoritative theology. This truth-knowing human had discovered God; he was not merely talking about God.


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It's all relevant. Very relevant. I'm going to have to get back to work now. But when I'm done I'll respond.


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When you get back nod it might be very helpful if you would post YOUR restatement of those points you find true at their core related to the original post. The discussion is between those of us who are here. It's a distraction to utilize a third party's words. I find nearly nothing in the original which is true or relevant to the UB at all. What, specifically, would you hope to communicate and please do utilize text as you can to illustrate your points.

For example, do you believe the UB is for only those who have Mastered the Bible? Is such knowledge and understanding critical to circle progress? As you know, the UB claims otherwise related to its target audience (the planet for many generations) and the "need" for knowledge, beliefs, creeds, etc. for circle progress. The basic premise of the treatise is the knowledge needed to appreciate, understand, and utilize the UB teachings by one who has not even read the book through (and once is hardly enough to even begin to grasp its contents and importance).

Thank you.

8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I've posted the following by permission. Although I don't agree with everything stated, what's at the core is resoundingly true.


The DANGERS of the URANTIA BOOK

The Urantia Book (UB) was published in the middle of the 20th Century after having been translated and edited, by God's permission, by fallen Midway Creatures, in order to ensure its publication.  For an evil world will not publish a good book.  The UB had to be so presented to the world so as to attract the wicked in society, those who reject the truths of the Bible, to publish it, as so by God's will to expose the world to the critical 1st section of the book.  The fact that the heads of state, by and large, are veritable rebels against God attests to the truth that this world (earth/"Urantia") is in fact evil, wherein evil is both out of control and in control.

The concepts of the UB are from God and are indeed wholesome and salutary, but the translation and edition do not proceed from Him, but are permitted by Him, or else the UB would NEVER HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED.  Convoluted, abstract, and philosophical language never proceeds from God.  God is simple and forthright.  God allowed evil Midwayers to edit out of the UB all references pertaining to the consequences of wilful evil in the afterworld.  And as they consider Islam to be their pet religion, they carefully removed all references denigrating Islam.  The UB does not consequently, in its present edition,  have the power of grace to transform lives into righteousness as the Bible in fact does.

The ensuing result is that Urantia Book readers (UBers) are, for the most part (in the event of those who virulently reject the Bible), quick and ready to identify themselves with the most wicked elements in society - - violent crime, perversion, Islam, rebellion, wilful ignorance, and strenuous opposition to justice and righteousness.  These UBers are characterized by the following: the inability to reason, lack of common sense, the inclination to exercise cruel and unjust tyranny over those who seek after justice and righteousness; and they readily flee from anything which they are incapable of refuting.

Therefore I say that the Urantia Book is only meant and intended by God for the benefit of those who have MASTERED and fully benefited from the Bible.  Those who profess the Bible to be 100% infallible true and accurate profess thereby that they do not really KNOW the Bible.  Therefore they are exceedingly few who have truly mastered the book and consequently come to admit that this book has its serious problems, as the Ancient Fathers likewise admitted.  God graced the world with the Bible for very many centuries as this is the Introductory Book to the ways of salvation.  And the Urantia Book is a book of ADVANCED revelation to supplement the Bible wherein it lacks.  Just as men were incapable of receiving ALL truth in past times, so are they today.  Both the Bible and the Urantia Book are, by the will of God, flawed books, because men cannot handle ALL truth.  Those who rashly reject the salutary truths of the Bible will not receive from God the grace to understand the Urantia Book correctly.  Therefore, unless you are confirmed by the sealing of the Holy Spirit and are transformed in Jesus Christ, I would caution you to regard the Urantia Book as a dangerous book, one which will not lead and guide you to the everlasting presence of God.  The UB in several places makes it EXCEEDINLY CLEAR that only those who adopt the perfection of the Universal Father will proceed on to the 2nd Mansion World and then on to Havona.  Men of good will can obtain truth only from the Father Within Who alone is infallible, and only those who love righteousness will hear Him.


You know, the more I read this the more it is apparent that the DANGER here is the deranged mind which has concocted this load of BS. Shows that a little knowledge can become dangerous indeed as the Tao points out.

According to the UB it is the mind poisons which are truly dangerous - fear, anger, prejudice, anxiety, impatience, intolerance, envy, suspicion, pride, etc. The distortions and falsehoods posted above are sourced from and evidence of several of these poisons.

The UB says that our world is not evil by design or result. Evil, we are taught, is the result of inexperience, immaturity, lack of wisdom, and by embracing the mind poisons listed; and that time and maturity and wisdom are evolutionary taking many Mortal Epochs to achieve. There was no fall of man and no original sin and no one must atone for the sins of others and that forgiveness and mercy are Divine attributes we all enjoy.

The UB has little to do with the Bible except that it explains the facts of our history and our creation and the role of Adam and Eve and Melchezidek and Michael in delivering epochal revelation of fact and truth to our world in the past. The UB endlessly contradicts the Bible's story and it's resultant creeds and doctrines as examples of the evolution of primitive minds and peoples through the process of that evolution. Certainly the rebels and their leaders receive harsh treatment in the text so to suggest they are the source of the Papers demonstrates an ignorance of gargantuan proportions.

The UB certainly has assisted in the transformation of my life - my religious life, my family life, my community life and my daily walk through life by providing a clarity of facts related to universe reality, my source and destiny, and all the wonderful elements and personalities of creation in this friendly universe. Danger indeed!! I recommend a reading of Paper 100 and 101 (the very first Papers I read) for any who wish to discover what the UB actually says about the life of the religionist and the importance of a philosophy of living that guides one every day and brings transformation and transcendence into our spirit identity and the transfer of the seat of identity from the material to the spiritual and how to balance and harmonize that effort and do so without DANGER!

The UB is also clear that knowledge/belief without faith is fruitless and that faith/love without knowledge is fruitful indeed, and further that faith with knowledge is by far the better option of the three....thus this gift of facts regarding reality and our place within reality. It is also clear that wrong beliefs are universal among evolutionary religion but that wrong beliefs which result in faith acts of sincere devotion and response to God within may be obstacles to some degree but will not prevent nor preclude the spiritization progress of the truth seeker and religionist. So, the good news is that no matter how screwy Benjamins' beliefs are, if he can rid himself of pride, arrogance, fear, and prejudice then the falsehoods he embraces still may be overcome by faith and love and service to others.

The main point I think is how very, very, very little, little, little Benjamins knows of the actual words within the UB. This is not an argument of interpretation, it is an obvious lack of knowledge which equals ignorance and is a substantial demonstration of prejudice (the love of and loyalty to one's own opinions and knowledge/understanding - a closed mind already made up and so so proud of itself!).

The UB says: " The chief inhibitors of growth are prejudice and ignorance."

I would suggest that no reader or student of the UB give any weight or consideration of anything Benjamins has to say about the Urantia Papers as it is obvious he knows nothing at all about the subject he has chosen for this latest diatribe. I cannot yet imagine what nod was thinking in his posting of such blathering insanity as posted. Just my opinion of course.

Brad 8)


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ah i think i get it...so this is supposed to be some sort of plea advocating the Source of all truth yet cleverly disguised as disjointed and half-baked poppycock? brilliant...


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SMH :roll:


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fanofVan wrote:
Here's a repost of my questions too...which were similarly ignored:

Is God simple? Yes, ever see Forrest Gump?

Is Islam the religion of the rebel midwayers? No.

Are UB readers wicked? Only Louis. Is the Bible a "revelation"? It certainly is.

Is Urantia evil? No, but Uranus is.

Are you expecting another "edition" of the 5th Epochal Revelation? Yes, the edition that will occur when many people share it by the manner of how they realize and live their lives.

Have I and other UB readers rejected the Bible Only you can know.
or have we discovered new ways to appreciate its value to humanity BECAUSE of the UB? I hope so.

And do I (and other students May I include myself?) suffer from "the inability to reason I have this problem sometimes, lack of common sense Obviously, I suffer from that, the inclination to exercise cruel and unjust tyranny over those who seek after justice and righteousness Only if you're a manipulating politician too; and they readily flee from anything which they are incapable of refuting."? Sometimes I see this.

Who are the "Ancient Fathers"? Very old men with too many kids?

What does it mean to have "Mastered" the Bible? I guess it means you're not its slave. What parts of the Bible are "salutary truths" and which are not? You become aware of this, when you're its master.

What does it mean to "adopt the perfection of the Universal Father"? It means you're on to the main thing in life. No book required. And it's dangerous to think that it is. At least it is for me.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Who are the "Ancient Fathers"? Very old men with too many kids?

As an example to a reference in the Bible one can assume the following verse from the KJV-Ezra 3:12:
Quote:
“But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:”

However, there is another reference, that can be applied from the "Book of Jubilees" that can be associated to the fallen angels where there children found human women pleasant to the eye, etc., etc., and as these children were dealt with the Father's had to watch.

_________________
The Reality of knowing what Wisdom is, is in the Experiencing of the Philosophy of using Knowledge.


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Thank you MidiChlorian for researching what the Bible says an Ancient Father is.

fanofVan wrote:
What is the value of knowledge nod? It's of great value. For example, I tend to suffer when, knowing the value of keeping my mouth shut, I don't. Can those without knowledge but with faith also find truth? Yes. Again, I'll point to Forrest Gump. How about those with knowledge but no faith? Without faith, true faith in God, knowledge can be dangerous. What's the UB say about faith and its transformative powers? For me, the following from the Urantia Book, is the best example of what the transformative powers of faith, can do.

(184:2.12) All too often one's own mind tends to justify continuance in the path of error when once it is entered upon. It requires a great and noble character, having started out wrong, to turn about and go right.


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Nod,
You have already stated who you belief Ray is talking about when he uses the phrase "ancient fathers".

nodAmanaV wrote:
Alright, you asked so I will do my best to explain.
...

Therefore they are exceedingly few who have truly mastered the book and consequently come to admit that this book has its serious problems, as the Ancient Fathers likewise admitted.
That's true too. Few of those who claim to have mastered the Bible don't also admit it has serious problems. Ray does. Who he's referring to when using the term Ancient Fathers? Probably people like Jesus, John the Baptist, and most if not all the prophets who came down hard on those who wanted to melt their gold into an idol to "worship" rather than being correct towards God's Will, to be more and more like him.


However, you have not addressed my question of which "Ancient Father" you were referring to when you said:

nodAmanaV wrote:
The Urantia Book is dangerous if you think that reading it is good enough, while waiting to apply what the Urantia Book says as an actual spiritual experience that has real value. Eternity is forever but time is limited. Limited in its value to identify with Godlikedness. In other words, just reading and not doing what the Urantia Book says is dangerous if you get caught having to dig it out of a hole it was buried in and hand it back to a demanding Ancient Father.


Who is this "demanding Ancient Father" who will require that we 'hand it back'? These are your words, not your cousin's, so you should be able to answer this question in a straightforward and factual manner. You are speaking of "danger" after all, so the very least you can do is clarify your meaning.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Nod,
You have already stated who you belief Ray is talking about when he uses the phrase "ancient fathers".

nodAmanaV wrote:
Alright, you asked so I will do my best to explain.
...

Therefore they are exceedingly few who have truly mastered the book and consequently come to admit that this book has its serious problems, as the Ancient Fathers likewise admitted.
That's true too. Few of those who claim to have mastered the Bible don't also admit it has serious problems. Ray does. Who he's referring to when using the term Ancient Fathers? Probably people like Jesus, John the Baptist, and most if not all the prophets who came down hard on those who wanted to melt their gold into an idol to "worship" rather than being correct towards God's Will, to be more and more like him.


However, you have not addressed my question of which "Ancient Father" you were referring to when you said:

nodAmanaV wrote:
The Urantia Book is dangerous if you think that reading it is good enough, while waiting to apply what the Urantia Book says as an actual spiritual experience that has real value. Eternity is forever but time is limited. Limited in its value to identify with Godlikedness. In other words, just reading and not doing what the Urantia Book says is dangerous if you get caught having to dig it out of a hole it was buried in and hand it back to a demanding Ancient Father.


Who is this "demanding Ancient Father" who will require that we 'hand it back'? These are your words, not your cousin's, so you should be able to answer this question in a straightforward and factual manner. You are speaking of "danger" after all, so the very least you can do is clarify your meaning.


Agon,

I will do my best to answer your questions. See my blue comments below embedded within the last part of the Parable of the Talents, which was what I had in mind when I made my comments about what might be buried in a manner of speaking, and who the Ancient Father is, which is a departure from how Ray used the term "Ancient Fathers" by the way.

(176:3.4) And then there came to the accounting he who had received the one talent The Urantia Book. This servant came forward, saying, 'Lord Ancient Father, I knew you and realized that you were a shrewd man in that you expected gains where you had not personally labored; therefore was I afraid to risk aught of that which was intrusted to me. I safely hid your talent in the earth; here it is; you now have what belongs to you.' But his lord answered: 'You are an indolent and slothful steward. By your own words you confess that you knew I would require of you an accounting with reasonable profit, such as your diligent fellow servants have this day rendered. Knowing this, you ought, therefore, to have at least put my money into the hands of the bankers that on my return I might have received my own with interest.' And then to the chief steward this lord said: 'Take away this one talent The opportunity to make what the Urantia Book says, real as a mortal from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.'


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So you mean God. Why didn't you just say so? Why say "Ancient Father" if you meant God? Now, please back up your claim by providing TUB quotes that show an example of God being "demanding". Any example will do. You said 'a demanding Ancient Father' and then you said that by 'ancient father' you meant Jesus or John the Baptist. But now you said you meant God.

Please show how God is ever "demanding". Also, just as an aside, how are we to carry out this action of 'handing it (our copy of the Urantia Book) back to a demanding Ancient Father (God)'? How, exactly, do we do that and why is it "dangerous"?

Thanks in advance for your thoughtful response to my attempts to follow your meaning. Again, with a subject line that includes the word "danger" I do expect you to respond seriously and sincerely.


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I think there are some REAL dangers being presented by nod. It appears (and this is the second time on this topic I've said so but it's been pointed out many times to nod and Louis and others here at TruthBook) that some are truly obsessed by what others are or are not doing with their "talent(s)". nod's accusations toward others is more obtuse and subtle, perhaps, than his cousin's blatant accusations, but it remains the elephant in nod's room. The list of who here voices their disappointment about others' life choices in the daily walk is thankfully short. Those who do not live in faith and confident happiness in this friendly universe only deprive themselves of such fruits. It is not any believer's burden to lecture others on what they should be doing or not doing. Plenty of danger is such choices.

Who do you accuse nod of burying their talents? How do you come by such intimate knowledge of others? What are you doing with your talent that gives you the right and the power and the ability to judge what others are doing (or not doing)? This is an ongoing theme of yours it seems. You have claimed before that there are specific things people need to be doing and make the claim as though you know what should be done by others.

The danger is to make false claims against others and make sly insinuations of your disapproval of the choices of others. The danger of reading the UB and doing nothing is far less than the danger of spiritual pride and smugness. And when a reader determines that they know what needs to be done by others, then the reader is not much of a student of this text book on reality. You have still refused to specify that which you find so compelling and true, at its core, about your cousin's accusations toward others and his display of total ignorance regarding the UB. Your obfuscations reveal a lack of conviction or an inability to simply say what's on your mind.

What's the DANGER again? Who is in such DANGER? How do you know that? And perhaps you could use the terminology we share here together regarding celestial personalities and universe leaders. Thank you.

8)

140:3.17 (1571.4) “You are commissioned to save men, not to judge them. At the end of your earth life you will all expect mercy; therefore do I require of you during your mortal life that you show mercy to all of your brethren in the flesh. Make not the mistake of trying to pluck a mote out of your brother’s eye when there is a beam in your own eye. Having first cast the beam out of your own eye, you can the better see to cast the mote out of your brother’s eye.

140:3.18 (1571.5) “Discern the truth clearly; live the righteous life fearlessly; and so shall you be my apostles and my Father’s ambassadors. You have heard it said: ‘If the blind lead the blind, they both shall fall into the pit.’ If you would guide others into the kingdom, you must yourselves walk in the clear light of living truth. In all the business of the kingdom I exhort you to show just judgment and keen wisdom. Present not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample your gems under foot and turn to rend you.

140:3.19 (1571.6) “I warn you against false prophets who will come to you in sheep’s clothing, while on the inside they are as ravening wolves. By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree brings forth good fruit, but the corrupt tree bears evil fruit. A good tree cannot yield evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is presently hewn down and cast into the fire. In gaining an entrance into the kingdom of heaven, it is the motive that counts. My Father looks into the hearts of men and judges by their inner longings and their sincere intentions.



What's the intention here again? How's it going managing your own talents I wonder? :roll:


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