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 Post subject: The Will Of God
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I have been thinking about --The Will Of God for some time now.

The UB states an admonition "Be You Perfect Even As I Am Perfect." this coming from the Universal Father.

God's Will, if you will.


But, in our world, which I define as....0:1.26 (3.13) 7. Absolute perfection in no attribute, imperfection in all.
How do we understand this will of God?

God has willed us to begin this everlasting journey in Absolute Imperfection. To me this must mean we are destined to FAIL....as our starting point, the platform upon which we jump into reality from. Failure as God's Will for us....for now.


During the life of Jesus himself.....the Universal Father did not intervene to remove Jesus from the results of his actions, he was to be murdered. He was to bear the full responsibility of his decisions/actions/methods/choices, etc.

As are We.
God does not intervene in our lives, we are to live out every choice, decision, action, and bear the burden of our failures without Divine intervention. In fact, I would say it is God's will that we "fall short of the Glory of God" that we error, repeatedly, until lessons are learned.

Therefore: I think that God wills evil (error as described by the UB). I think that God wills sin also. Which begs the question; does God will Iniquity? The UB states that the failures of Lucifer and Satan have brought with it immeasurable good. Jesus considered Urantia a planet of survivors. Blessed are We (Urantia Mortals) so says the UB over and over.

The Universal Father has allowed all subordinate personalities to handle the Lucifer Rebellion as they see fit, without intervention. We are on our own and God has allowed EVERYTHING, as disastrous as it has been, to transpire.

I think God is indifferent to our choices ("our" including all personalities) as we are gifted with free will and as God already knows our destiny. God does not really "WILL" anything specific other than the admonition "Be you perfect even as I am perfect."

For us I think the closest we get to being perfect (at this stage in our creation) is our choices to learn what Love is.
Finding love is finding God.
Finding God is loving your fellow man.

But on the way there, God wills whatever it takes to get us there.


All my life I have been burdened by the fear of doing "The Will of God" so much so as not to allow myself to fail, falter, mistake, err, etc.

Also, it seems that, try as I may, I have an extremely difficult time loving my imperfect self, and with that, my imperfect brothers and sisters here. Internal progress has been slow as sap, like a stopped watch. The quotes below ring true in my soul as a real down-home struggle.

My over-conscientiousness has reeked havoc on my soul and the only way I can reconcile "God's Will" for me is to come to grips with the idea that God allows any and all failure as part of our growth.
Rather than God being the "commander" unto my soul, God rather is my comfort, my hope, and eventually my destiny. I am okay with God being indifferent to my choices and I believe I am here for God to "experience" through me.


34:7.3 (382.3) The mortals of a normal world do not experience constant warfare between their physical and spiritual natures. They are confronted with the necessity of climbing up from the animal levels of existence to the higher planes of spiritual living, but this ascent is more like undergoing an educational training when compared with the intense conflicts of Urantia mortals in this realm of the divergent material and spiritual natures.

34:7.4 (382.4) The Urantia peoples are suffering the consequences of a double deprivation of help in this task of progressive planetary spiritual attainment. The Caligastia upheaval precipitated world-wide confusion and robbed all subsequent generations of the moral assistance which a well-ordered society would have provided. But even more disastrous was the Adamic default in that it deprived the races of that superior type of physical nature which would have been more consonant with spiritual aspirations.

34:7.5 (382.5) Urantia mortals are compelled to undergo such marked struggling between the spirit and the flesh because their remote ancestors were not more fully Adamized by the Edenic bestowal. It was the divine plan that the mortal races of Urantia should have had physical natures more naturally spirit responsive.




These are my thoughts and opinions and I make no claim to accuracy whatsoever.
As imperfect as I am I care not to espouse any certainty to what I state.


What do you think about God's Will?

Paul


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Paul,
I have not seen your posts before, but in my opinion your thoughts on the will of God are well developed and beautifully expressed. Thank you for sharing them. I will be interested to see what others post in response, but I would say that upon a first read, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

One thing you wrote that gives me pause is the statement that "God is indifferent to our choices". If by 'indifferent' you mean non-interventionist, then yes, I agree. But if by 'indifferent' you mean uncaring or uninvolved, then no, I do not agree. God has gifted us with free will, fully understanding that by doing so He has empowered us to make mistakes. When we make mistakes, we often suffer; and sometimes, others in our mortal family suffer due to our choices. I do not think God is uncaring or indifferent to our suffering. I think He knows that the overall/ net growth that will occur as the result of the suffering is worth the harm we feel when we experience suffering. 'The greatest good for the greatest number' perspective.

Quote:
86:2.1 (951.3) Anxiety was a natural state of the savage mind. When men and women fall victims to excessive anxiety, they are simply reverting to the natural estate of their far-distant ancestors; and when anxiety becomes actually painful, it inhibits activity and unfailingly institutes evolutionary changes and biologic adaptations. Pain and suffering are essential to progressive evolution.


Quote:
171:7.3 (1874.6) Jesus really understood men; therefore could he manifest genuine sympathy and show sincere compassion. But he seldom indulged in pity. While his compassion was boundless, his sympathy was practical, personal, and constructive. Never did his familiarity with suffering breed indifference, and he was able to minister to distressed souls without increasing their self-pity.


All that said, I can really relate personally to your feelings of
Quote:
Also, it seems that, try as I may, I have an extremely difficult time loving my imperfect self, and with that, my imperfect brothers and sisters here. Internal progress has been slow as sap, like a stopped watch. The quotes below ring true in my soul as a real down-home struggle.

My over-conscientiousness has reeked havoc on my soul and the only way I can reconcile "God's Will" for me is to come to grips with the idea that God allows any and all failure as part of our growth.
Rather than God being the "commander" unto my soul, God rather is my comfort, my hope, and eventually my destiny. I am okay with God being indifferent to my choices and I believe I am here for God to "experience" through me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Hi Paul,
This is a very courageous exposition and I like it very much. You bring up very important observations that obviously come from your higher Self.

xobeht wrote:
As are We.
God does not intervene in our lives, we are to live out every choice, decision, action, and bear the burden of our failures without Divine intervention. In fact, I would say it is God's will that we "fall short of the Glory of God" that we error, repeatedly, until lessons are learned.


Very true. It is by trial and error that we perfect. A cycle of error, repentance, forgiveness, and error again, etc. I draw heavily on the parable of the prodigal son. As brothers, we play the elder brother and the younger. The righteous elder brother must forgive. The younger brother has erred and than repented. The will of God is that we love one another. Father forgives before asking and loving Him comes naturally. Forgiving our brothers does not come naturally. Only by forgiveness can we come to know our brother and then come to love him.

xobeht wrote:
I think God is indifferent to our choices ("our" including all personalities) as we are gifted with free will and as God already knows our destiny. God does not really "WILL" anything specific other than the admonition "Be you perfect even as I am perfect."


I know what you mean by God as "indifferent" to our choices. God as infinite and eternal, see the end from the beginning. He KNOWS already so no action is required on His part, only ours. He is patient with us and to some this may appear as being indifferent, but that does not mean uncaring. Quite the opposite. His infinite love gave us free-will.

xobeht wrote:
Rather than God being the "commander" unto my soul, God rather is my comfort, my hope, and eventually my destiny. I am okay with God being indifferent to my choices and I believe I am here for God to "experience" through me.


I can only conclude that this is auto-revelation, a direct communication from your TA. I recognize it.

Thank you Paul


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Greetings Paul,

I think your original premise is in error and that naturally leads you to wrong conclusions about the will of God and the presence of evil, sin and iniquity. God does not will those things. In fact, he is so perfect that those things do not even exist as reality in his eyes. Recall that he strikes no personal attitude at all toward sin (2:6:8).

You wrote:
xobeht wrote:
But, in our world, which I define as....0:1.26 (3.13) 7. Absolute perfection in no attribute, imperfection in all.


That premise is not accurate. Yes there are seven conceivable types of perfection possible, but we humans are not #7 until we wholeheartedly abandon the will of God and choose nonexistence. Each of us has a nucleus of perfection living within us, called the Thought Adjuster, an actual fragment of God himself. That puts us at #3, "absolute, relative, and imperfect aspects in varied association". The Adjuster is absolute perfection, our souls are relative perfection (in the process of being perfected) and our material selves are imperfect.

However, even though your original premise is faulty, I like your conclusion, that God is your comfort and destiny. I think you nailed it right there.

Respectfully,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Hi Paul,

It is good to hear from you again. Sounds like your travels are being used of God.

I am so blessed by your post as I have been asking for insight into this ongoing difficulty of discernment. I see you saying just what Jesus said when he said we were to take the beam out of our own eye before we attempted to remove it from another. In this case I see you saying that removing the beam in our own is in fact the process of spiritual growth. I concur.

Some many years ago I had a thought picture of sorts wherein I saw a great room all prepared for a party. It was as if a King was going to celebrate his birthday. But the place was a mess. Someone had opened all the presents and eaten the icing off the cake and destroyed the presentation. It was awful. Many years later and after much personal anguish God again showed me a picture of the same room. I had cleaned up some of it, how much I don't know. He made it clear that cleaning up the room is my job, my soul building job. It was my mess. Every time I clean up more I see God more clearly, I understand his will for me more completely and I am able to share what I know of him (love my neighbor as myself) more sincerely.

Thank you for this.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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195:7.5 The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection"—a mere glorified daydream of the material mind. Such things are the spiritual forecasts of the indwelling Adjuster, the spirit of God living in the mind of man. And let not your dabblings with the faintly glimpsed findings of “relativity” disturb your concepts of the eternity and infinity of God. And in all your solicitation concerning the necessity for self-expression do not make the mistake of failing to provide for Adjuster-expression, the manifestation of your real and better self.

132:2.2 My brother, good and evil are merely words symbolizing relative levels of human comprehension of the observable universe. If you are ethically lazy and socially indifferent, you can take as your standard of good the current social usages. If you are spiritually indolent and morally unprogressive, you may take as your standards of good the religious practices and traditions of your contemporaries. But the soul that survives time and emerges into eternity must make a living and personal choice between good and evil as they are determined by the true values of the spiritual standards established by the divine spirit which the Father in heaven has sent to dwell within the heart of man. This indwelling spirit is the standard of personality survival.

132:2.3 Goodness, like truth, is always relative and unfailingly evil-contrasted. It is the perception of these qualities of goodness and truth that enables the evolving souls of men to make those personal decisions of choice which are essential to eternal survival.

132:2.4 The spiritually blind individual who logically follows scientific dictation, social usage, and religious dogma stands in grave danger of sacrificing his moral freedom and losing his spiritual liberty. Such a soul is destined to become an intellectual parrot, a social automaton, and a slave to religious authority.

132:2.5 Goodness is always growing toward new levels of the increasing liberty of moral self-realization and spiritual personality attainment—the discovery of, and identification with, the indwelling Adjuster. An experience is good when it heightens the appreciation of beauty, augments the moral will, enhances the discernment of truth, enlarges the capacity to love and serve one's fellows, exalts the spiritual ideals, and unifies the supreme human motives of time with the eternal plans of the indwelling Adjuster, all of which lead directly to an increased desire to do the Father's will, thereby fostering the divine passion to find God and to be more like him.


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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While I like and respect all who have contributed here, the long UB quotes sometimes grow tiresome. I would like everyone to interpret what they think the quote is saying as well. Don't loose the quotes just explain your take on them along with said passages.
Just give it a try, what's to lose? And it would help a brother out!
Of course there will probably be side-effects i'm sure. :wink:

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Slyde


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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TUB says what it says and it don't say what it don't say.

If you want a "ME HERE" moment, I suggest that you go and ask your brother Bradly. He can volunteer to research it for you if you are tired. Could be low T. You should have it checked out. The treatment, however, does have its side effects. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Greetings slyde,

I am so, so sorry to see you and Brad slimed in such a troll-like fashion. It is entirely uncalled for, and I believe a form of harassment which is contrary to forum rules. I just wanted to let you know that I support your sentiments concerning quotes. It is not only tiresome, but jejune. I prefer to see an attempt at interpretation by the poster, an indication of what it is about the quote that is germane, or at least the reason it was chosen.

Respectfully,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Rexford wrote:
I am so, so sorry to see you and Brad slimed in such a troll-like fashion. It is entirely uncalled for, and I believe a form of harassment which is contrary to forum rules.


I see that you and Slyde are conspiring to entrap me, attempting to get me expelled from the forum, and the two of you may well succeed. Perhaps as a trio with Bradly on board you will have a greater chance of success. How ridiculous and hypocritical that you should be so, so sorry.

Slyde tried to conflate my apologies to Agon with a wife-beater's apologies. Very nice. BTW, have any of you stopped beating your wives? And now he baits me into interpreting the quotes I provided and suggests, in veiled terms, that there may be consequences. "And it would help a brother out!" Perhaps put that on a card board and take it to the street corner, Slyde. Don't forget to wear your Rolex watch. You should not be out in the sun more than 1 hour. Just some brotherly advice.

This is trouble making of the first order and anyone with half a brain should know this. So, I squirted him with a little water, just to let him know I am on to him. And now his champion comes to the rescue. This gesture is so, so chivalrous, Rexford, yet so, so humorless.

You are very stealthy in your condescension and insults. Where did you perfect these skills and attributes? I am not offended but I will not be bullied!


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Greetings Paul,

xobeht wrote:
God has willed us to begin this everlasting journey in Absolute Imperfection. To me this must mean we are destined to FAIL....as our starting point, the platform upon which we jump into reality from. Failure as God's Will for us....for now.


This cannot be true, that failure is God's will for us. Why would he send a fragment of himself to help us if he wants us to fail? I think those who ignore the "inner voice" are destined to failure due to self-sabotage. If we fail, it is of our own making, not God's.

I agree that it may appear that we are faced every day with obstacles, disappointments and challenges which can be interpreted as God's will. But, we know from the story of Job that it is not so. Human beings are inherently lazy creatures. We need stimuli in order to keep us moving and progressing. It is up to us to choose which direction we want to go when faced with these difficulties of life, without which we might never seek to know God's will at all. I can think of a dozen or so quotes which shed light on this, but I am sure you already know what they are.

One of the biggest challenges we have is dealing with hateful, venomous people, especially when hostility is aimed directly at your personality. We are supposed to return goodness for such evil and show kindness in the face of insults and threats. We are supposed to be concerned about such a person's soul and make attempts to shine light for them to find their way. We might fail, but it would be worse not to try at all. I believe it is God's will to try our best to love, especially in the face of daunting evil.

Respectfully,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Rexford wrote:
This cannot be true, that failure is God's will for us.


It is God's will that evil be permitted, that failure be an option. That is what Paul is saying.


Rexford wrote:
I agree that it may appear that we are faced every day with obstacles, disappointments and challenges which can be interpreted as God's will. But, we know from the story of Job that it is not so.


The greatest affliction is never to have been afflicted.


Rexford wrote:
One of the biggest challenges we have is dealing with hateful, venomous people, especially when hostility is aimed directly at your personality. We are supposed to return goodness for such evil and show kindness in the face of insults and threats. We are supposed to be concerned about such a person's soul and make attempts to shine light for them to find their way. We might fail, but it would be worse not to try at all. I believe it is God's will to try our best to love, especially in the face of daunting evil.


Very stealthy insult directed at me, no doubt. Use my hate, venom and hostility to your advantage, if you will. Hypocrisy, however is useless to your progress.


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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Greetings,

Paul wrote:
xobeht wrote:
Therefore: I think that God wills evil (error as described by the UB). I think that God wills sin also. Which begs the question; does God will Iniquity?


Of course God does not will evil, sin or iniquity. These things exist only as potentials or possibilities. They are not real. God cannot will that which is not real. Jesus once explained this to Ganid:

Jesus said: "My brother, God is love; therefore he must be good, and his goodness is so great and real that it cannot contain the small and unreal things of evil. God is so positively good that there is absolutely no place in him for negative evil. 130:1:5

In the same quote, evil is described as the "misadaptation of immaturity" and the "distorting influence of ignorance". When evil is chosen consciously by someone it becomes sin. To consciously malign, injure, abuse and denigrate another personality is sin. It goes beyond immaturity and ignorance to deliberate immorality. We are all forced to suffer the consequences of this type of sin. Likewise, we are all asked by God to return goodness and love to the sinner, just as God would.

However, we know that God has his limits when it comes to iniquity, which is the persistent choice to consciously malign, injure, abuse and denigrate others despite being offered goodness and love in return. I believe he allows the individual to become unreal all on his own. The universe is progressing in reality manifestation. Unreality (sin) cannot exist in a real universe.

God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe. 2:6:8

Respectfully,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: The Will Of God
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To whom it may concern: Paranoia will destroy-ya!

"I believe He allows the individual to become unreal all on his own"
Agreed!

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Thanks to everyone for contributing.


I do appreciate all post regardless if you are in agreement with me or not. After all, we as UB readers are already the opposing viewpoint in many respects. I also find great comfort hearing from you who have similar ideas and or experiences, it helps me to realize that perhaps I am not so out of my mind at times.

My mind is a beast that chews on me constantly, relentlessly. Sometimes it feels like it chews me up and spits me out. I like to be a deep thinker, its like entertainment, I entertain myself sometimes with ideas that I might actually have a conclusion to something here or there. And then life throws me a curve ball that I didn't see coming and the ball hits me right in the head.

I also noticed that in the UB Jesus was in support of his apostles hashing their ideas out amongst themselves yet, he would never get involved in any sort of these debates. It makes sense to me because, although these men needed to do this, I think Jesus understood these activities as much less important to their spiritual growth than learning to love each other in spite of their differences.

I do like to hear from those who disagree, it helps me see things from another perspective. I like to try to think "out side the box" and the more ideas the better.


If and when we do disagree here on the forum, it is for all the world to see. I don't expect than many newcomers would understand all the disagreement and some might perhaps be turned off by it. Most people believe that to be of the same religion, like say--Christianity, its followers must be of the same mind.

It is refreshing that the UB specifically states that we can not have universal theological agreement, only a universal spiritual experience of brotherly love. This statement has been my experience, I have never found agreement amongst followers on specifics, there is always some tension and not a little bit of difference of opinion based on the vast differences in the way we each experience this life.


I also appreciate the UB paragraphs that you all have provided as they always speak to me in some fashion. You never know when something comes your way that is exactly what your soul needed to hear.

If you have more please post.

Thank You So Much

Paul


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