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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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"they would do better to reform it."
Yes, let's start in the church that Jesus fosters. Why not. Look at what's going on here between us. Nothing but conflict.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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I don't know about you but when I look to the future I don't see a Urantia religion that doesn't include or hasn't absorbed Christianity, or visa versa.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Rsarmast wrote:
Riktare we're encouraged to develop true religion, which is the religion of "personal spiritual experience." This isn't to say that we're supposed to just have a personal religion.

There's the inner experience, and then there's the socialized or organized religion, which is a product of sharing religious beliefs and combining energies toward a common purpose.


I think you're right in that. One big challenge and privilege is in discovering how the "personal spiritual experience" of others corresponds to our own. Certainly different people have different levels of intensity and affinity for that. Maybe you need to be super creative to be able to effect that in a public forum.

The closest thing to a definite sharing and recognition of shared spiritual experiences among a massive number of people that I've ever experienced has been arena concerts of a hyper-progressive spiritually focused rock band. There's something non-political and non-dogmatic about music, but also music has a conceptual and experiential depth that to my mind goes much, much further than any sermon I've ever heard.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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(87:7.6) Regardless of the drawbacks and handicaps, every new revelation of truth has given rise to a new cult, and even the restatement of the religion of Jesus must develop a new and appropriate symbolism. Modern man must find some adequate symbolism for his new and expanding ideas, ideals, and loyalties. This enhanced symbol must arise out of religious living, spiritual experience. And this higher symbolism of a higher civilization must be predicated on the concept of the Fatherhood of God and be pregnant with the mighty ideal of the brotherhood of man.

Okay Robert, this tells me that it's through religious living, spiritual experience that the new cult will arise. That will take time and cannot be manufactured in my opinion but will only develop as a consequence of more and more people finding each other while spiritually experiencing religious living. Isn't that what we're doing?



(170:5.19) Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming "the kingdom of God is at hand"—meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer—and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ. There must come a revival of the actual teachings of Jesus, such a restatement as will undo the work of his early followers who went about to create a sociophilosophical system of belief regarding the fact of Michael's sojourn on earth.

The revelators make it sound like this part of the evolution of the new cult will have to await another and greater John the Baptist. Who might this John be? Could it be that this new John will be like the last one, someone who's destiny will be tied up with the appearance of the next dispensational Son?


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Greetings,

What I absolutely love about being a Revelation Reader is that I am free, absolutely free, to socialize my personal religion in any way I desire. I can't think of a better thing for a sincere religionist than that. I don't have to be a member of any group, or I can choose to be a member of all groups. I can do whatever I desire. Such freedom is spiritually liberating.

The religion of the spirit leaves you forever free to follow the truth wherever the leadings of the spirit may take you. 155:6:5

This is precisely why I cannot support any effort to form a cult/church around the Revelation. In my opinion, this would stifle freedom and narrow choices. Unless the so-called cult/church is open to all religious beliefs and practices, I don't think it can really serve this world.

And, this is precisely why I don't think Robert's version of a revelatory cult/church will ever get off the ground. There is no air beneath its wings, no unity of Spirit source for liftoff. It's DOA, dead on arrival, especially if it attempts to rein in religion to fit one particular world view. And that's how I see it right now. It's entire hypothesis is based upon the imagination of just a few individuals, which incidentally have not been given the authority of leadership by the universe. At least I see no evidence of such.

All we need is the religion of the spirit as described in the quote below. In fact, a search for the phrase, religion of the spirit, gives a thorough description of what is expected of us collectively.

The religions of authority can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The religions of authority require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience—uniformity of destiny—making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration. 155:6:9

My opinion is go ahead, build your Tower of Babel and see what happens. If God loves it, it will thrive. If not, it will collapse under its own pretentious weight from the egos at the top.

Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Yes I agree Rex, all we need for now is this religion of the spirit which liberates us from so much, so much confusion.

I feel that the book is only one part of the revelation. Doesn't it seem like the book has been provided so that some will be prepared by its study to recognize the PERSON who is genuinely authorized to appear and lead us forward into the next dispensation?


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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It makes sense to me that instead of the dispensational Son appearing and then teaching the people like Jesus did, this time around the teaching comes before the Son appears.


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:16 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Greetings,

Jesus explained the difference between religion of the spirit and religion of the mind in Paper 155. I think Robert's religion would qualify as a religion of the mind because it is being designed to offer the security of conformity by establishing some sort of authority for religionists who read the Revelation; it protects them from the uncertainties of spiritual exploration. Although there might be many who would prefer this type of security of conformity, it will rob them of their liberties and stifle their growth.

While the religion of authority may impart a present feeling of settled security, you pay for such a transient satisfaction the price of the loss of your spiritual freedom and religious liberty. 155:6:5

I honestly think that those who desire to create a cult/church based upon the Revelation are really lazy cowards. That sounds harsh, I know, but even Jesus called them halfhearted. The religion of the mind requires very little effort since it is a safe and secure shelter from the uncertainties experienced by courageous seekers of unexplored truth, the religion of the spirit.

The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind — the theology of authority — requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul. 155:5:11

Oh, how I long for the freedom to experience uncertainty! There lies the challenge of the ages! Will I dare to reach out of my comfort zone and attempt to touch the hand of God? Or, will I be happy holding onto the high priest's offer of a cup of remembrance? Will I look forward and grow, or will I drink the cup of the past and be satisfied with memories of what was? Will I wimp out and curl up in a comfort bubble of like-minded members of a cult, or reach outside the bubble and take a faith voyage? I choose the open seas, the unexplored seas of effort, struggle, loyalty and faith, faith that there is more, always more, and I'm blessed to be free to find it, all of it!

In Friendship,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Thanks to everyone.....well said. I'm so confused now that my head is about to spin off.

Robert says the movement is on its knees and running on fumes and a "sorry sight"....but its not - not by any single measure....and now he refuses to acknowledge his false claims hidden is this personal opinion which indicts and criticizes many servants by group.

Robert says "we" have made an idol out of the Papers to venerate instead of embrace the teachings....a peculiar declaration and further false claim hidden within opinion that indicts and criticizes every single reader of the claim - we're all included in "we" I think.

Robert also declares the "we" (whoever the heck "we" is...which may depend upon what the definition of what is "is" :wink: ) are and have been burying our "talent"....further falsehood wrapped in opinion.

None of these opinions comes with any form of evidence, and of course, no such evidence of such blanket BS statements might be provided anyway.

He also says his new church/religion is not really for UB students but is rather a form of substitute for the Revelation for those sheep who are too uninformed, unenlightened, unmotivated, or not spirit led to actually live the good news and that a posse of ministers from the readership is urgently needed to herd these cats who are so desperate for religion but are unwilling to do the work of truth seeking and spirit progress.

Which is peculiar and very interesting due to the fact that Robert has claimed that there is a conspiracy of power and organizational authority which believes the UB is for some minority and to be held back or some other form of falsehood; but it is Robert who seems to think the UB is too big or too complex or too special for the masses and "we" (whoever the heck that is) need to form creeds and ceremonies and symbols - not for the readership - for all those who are not yet readers. So very peculiar.

I think I prefer the mission and ministry of book dissemination and the connectivity of the student body into educational and socialization groups that will organically and experientially self-determine what's next. Should not the revelation be revealed first? And substantially? And allow the student body to express itself related to how best to unite and share and care with one another. Living the teachings in harmony with all others, regardless of affiliations, is all that is asked of me or anyone by the Teachings in the Papers.

Robert's inverted logic is feeding on itself, self devouring its own premise and purpose.

And it is a unfortunate, if not so uncommon, psychosis that blames others for the troubles, disappointments, and frustrations of the one and also claims the solution to the disappointment is dependent upon others. The on our "knees", and buried "talents", the "sorry sights", etc., etc. is a sorry spectacle of blame, lament, frustration, and impatience...a rather immature display here by one who seeks a position of leadership amongst religionists...or sheep. Not shepherd material.

This is what's "bothering" me Robert. You've been given plenty of rope and respect. What you do with it is up to you.

But I now think it may be you are talking about and it is "you" on your knees and running on "fumes" and your talent has not delivered the return "you" hoped for and it is you who may be the "sorry sight" of the parable....I mean you is in we but "we" are not....please learn to speak for yourself and about yourself....and leave "we" out of it.

Best wishes herding cats and feeding sheep.

8)


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Greetings,

What I don't understand is why cults feel the need to convert people. Does anyone comprehend what makes cultists go out and force their religion on other people? Isn't that evidence of a power trip? Why entice people into a cult? Shouldn't they come of their own free will? Shouldn't spiritual fragrance be enough of a lure?

Why does Robert keep coming here trying to convert us? If there was a real cult forming, a cult worth joining, wouldn't it seem rational to come here to announce its existence and invite people to join in a gracious and fragrant manner? I'm really not getting this. All I see is threats and incessant whining that no one is building the cult, no one is joining the cult, no one likes the cult, no one is doing God's will because they're against the cult, yadayadayada (gonna go eat worms). It's all so tedious and vapid. I'm getting really, really bored with it. That's for sure.

Uninspired,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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fanofVan wrote:
The three major organizations...

Just because the Big 3... :


There are only two major organizations as far as I'm concerned, The Fellowship and UF. The IUA or UIA or whatever it's called is just an arm of UF.

I once contacted the Fellowship to ask why they don't defend the book against attacks on the credibility of the book from people, even from people who are readers and supposedly believers, and I was told, "We're not that kind of an organization." Well, why not? Why aren't they? I want an organization that will stand up for the book and defend the book when and if it's defensible. I'm in favor of a statement of basic Urantia Book beliefs if we can do it properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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What if we don't even use that dreaded word, "creed." Why can't we formulate a statement of beliefs derived from The Urantia Book that we all, or most all, agree on?

102:2.9 We are not blind to the fact that religion often acts unwisely, even irreligiously, but it acts. [/b]Aberrations of religious conviction have led to bloody persecutions, but always and ever religion does something; it is dynamic!

"Dynamic" does not describe the Urantia movement or the two main organizations thus far.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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How about this, lads and lasses? Comments? Corrections? Additions? Expansions?

Consider this a rough draft, but perhaps something to go on. In fact, this doesn't need to be a group statement of beliefs. Each of us can modify it to suit ourselves if that's what we want. I don't think there's too much that is controversial in it. Perhaps we don't need to declare our belief that TUB is an epochal revelation but I can't see the harm.

It might be nice if, when someone says, "Well, what do you believe?," if you can give them something concise rather than handing them The Urantia Book and saying, "Read it and you'll know."
********************************************************

A simple Urantian Statement of Beliefs

I/we believe in one God, a Trinity comprised of three persons, the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit.

I/we believe that Jesus is a divine Son of God.

I/we believe that "salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God." (188:4.9)

I/we believe that there is a pre-personal fragment of God the Universal Father within every normal human being over the age of 5 or 6. As Jesus said in the scriptures, and "probably the greatest pronouncement Jesus ever made," "..behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (Luke 17:20-21) Not "among you," not "nearby," not "around you," not "in your midst," but "within you." And that, should you someday choose to align your will perfectly with the Father's will, you will "fuse" with that fragment of God within you and it will acquire personality and you will acquire divinity, as happened to Elijah and Enoch in the Hebrew scriptures. (2 Kings 2:11) (Hebrews 11:5) And should this "fusion" with the Father fragment occur while you are here on earth, you will be "translated" directly to the "mansions" ("The Mansion Worlds" in The Urantia Book) that Jesus spoke of in John 14:2.

I/we believe that The Urantia Book is an epochal revelation from God's celestial government to our world, which the book calls "Urantia." The revelation of Jesus, 2000 years ago, was the last such epochal revelation. Prior to that were the epochal revelations of Melchizedek, Adam and Eve, and the Planetary Prince who is know known as The Devil.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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I LIKE IT!

I can do without the reference to the devil at the end however.

Thank you furchizedek


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Greetings,

I would never use the phrase, "taken for granted". The phrase has multiple meanings, most of them unsuitable. Sonship and salvation are precious gifts, too valuable to be taken for granted. Is it appropriate to take gifts for granted? I'd say never.

Credos are statements of beliefs. Beliefs are not what's important. Faith is. There is a big difference between the two. The Papers have revealed that faith is what moves us forward in our quest for God, not beliefs. Faith is centered on the person of God alone, while beliefs have to do with everything else. Beliefs belong to the group; faith belongs to the individual. I'd much rather make a statement of faith.

I have faith in a loving God and a friendly universe. I trust that I am a son of the living God whose will I dedicate my mind, heart and soul to for all eternity.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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