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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Robert says above: "We've done something very similar ourselves, by replacing the religion of the UB with the veneration of the UB itself."

Me here: We have? Who is "we"? I haven't. Don't know a single serious student who does so. What serious student could ever do so? What is the teaching that would make one forsake their religious life to instead cling to a book about the religious life and philosophy of living to experience the eternal adventure? Is the book the adventure? Who thinks that?

Simple Definition of venerate

1 : to feel or show deep respect for (someone or something that is considered great, holy, etc.)

Me here: I will confess a deep respect for what I believe to be this gift of Michael's to his Shrine of Nebadon. Should we not? Is epochal revelation trivial or immaterial or something to be taken lightly? Would you have others forsake this textbook of universe fact and truth, this gift of knowledge to propel the mind into the path of ascendancy? The Papers tell WHO to respect, honor, and love....all others.

I am perplexed by your disrespect for those who for decades now have worked to provide this gift to our fellow mortals, tirelessly and without ceasing, working alone, in teams, and by organization to disseminate the Papers, create a student body, connect that readership to one another, socialize the readership into relationships, develop scholarship and teachers and curriculum of the text itself, and provide manifold vehicles and devices for sharing, caring, and expressing the Spirit within. It is the readership - past, present, and future - who will determine the importance of the Papers for themselves and will respond to the great opportunity to serve our world by dissemination of this gift, primarily by living such a life that the fruits of the spirit come forth, and secondarily for some, to make the Papers themselves as common as The Cat in the Hat.

Robert...so long as you accuse others, especially falsely so, and raise/puff yourself up to such a position of judgement and authority....you will fail. You don't speak for "we" nor do you speak for me. There's a little saying about worrying about the beam blinding your own eye rather than going about pointing out the saw dust in the eye of others. Your stone casting is your downfall. Not attractive. Not productive. Not real. Not welcome.

:roll: :!: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Riktare we're encouraged to develop true religion, which is the religion of "personal spiritual experience." This isn't to say that we're supposed to just have a personal religion.

There's the inner experience, and then there's the socialized or organized religion, which is a product of sharing religious beliefs and combining energies toward a common purpose.

The evolutionary religionists, or those who prefer the "religions of authority," focus only on the latter and not the former. This community has thus far focused on the former but not the latter. We've never had an official religious organization, or anything resembling what the revelators suggest and ask for.

It's the combination of the inner and outer that hits the mark, not just one or the other. I'm not sure how either one can be considered "spewing dogma."

Blessings,
Robert

Riktare wrote:
Aren't we really incited to develop and grow a personal religion? And to facilitate in ways that are right and natural that process in others?

Families and friends seem like the natural outgrowth or sphere of influence for people who are growing in that way, aren't they so? Nonverbal communication and mutual recognition of meanings and values goes a million miles further than spewing dogma (or what feels like dogma to others).


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Now, now, negative Nancy. Everyone here is having a civil discourse except for you. Just chill out and take it easy.

fanofVan wrote:
Robert says above: "We've done something very similar ourselves, by replacing the religion of the UB with the veneration of the UB itself."

Me here: We have? Who is "we"? I haven't. Don't know a single serious student who does so. What serious student could ever do so? What is the teaching that would make one forsake their religious life to instead cling to a book about the religious life and philosophy of living to experience the eternal adventure? Is the book the adventure? Who thinks that?

Simple Definition of venerate

1 : to feel or show deep respect for (someone or something that is considered great, holy, etc.)

Me here: I will confess a deep respect for what I believe to be this gift of Michael's to his Shrine of Nebadon. Should we not? Is epochal revelation trivial or immaterial or something to be taken lightly? Would you have others forsake this textbook of universe fact and truth, this gift of knowledge to propel the mind into the path of ascendancy? The Papers tell WHO to respect, honor, and love....all others.

I am perplexed by your disrespect for those who for decades now have worked to provide this gift to our fellow mortals, tirelessly and without ceasing, working alone, in teams, and by organization to disseminate the Papers, create a student body, connect that readership to one another, socialize the readership into relationships, develop scholarship and teachers and curriculum of the text itself, and provide manifold vehicles and devices for sharing, caring, and expressing the Spirit within. It is the readership - past, present, and future - who will determine the importance of the Papers for themselves and will respond to the great opportunity to serve our world by dissemination of this gift, primarily by living such a life that the fruits of the spirit come forth, and secondarily for some, to make the Papers themselves as common as The Cat in the Hat.

Robert...so long as you accuse others, especially falsely so, and raise/puff yourself up to such a position of judgement and authority....you will fail. You don't speak for "we" nor do you speak for me. There's a little saying about worrying about the beam blinding your own eye rather than going about pointing out the saw dust in the eye of others. Your stone casting is your downfall. Not attractive. Not productive. Not real. Not welcome.

:roll: :!: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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I'm all for civil discourse Robert. Is it civil to blame your frustrations on others? Is it civil to broadly characterize the movement and its organizations as failures on our knees? The larger question for you is....how's that working for you?

I wish you well Robert and have, repeatedly, admired your scholarship, your contributions to dissemination, and your sincere desire to bring the teachings to the world in your own way. I sincerely believe you will have far greater success, and I wish for yours, if you would simply stop blaming any others for anything at all and cease to categorize those who walk a different path with different priorities than your own. To each their own.

I would hope that such discourse as you encounter here might contribute to those insights, experience, perspective, and wisdom which would serve your own sincerity and inner journey....as well as whatever service ministry you may choose for yourself. I wish you peace, happiness, success, and all good things!!

Negative Nancy signing off........ :wink: :biggrin: 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Mar 08, 2016 4:15 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Smmsh ,...

Wasnt the Forum , contacts commissioned
After the UB Papers were Finished / done / complete
Told to simply Publish IT?

And that WE Were on our OWN !

I Suppose that the, They / the celestials
Thought us to be Wiser than we are , than to Start
a New Religion / cult From This FER Revelation !

Lots of Angels shakin their heads me thinks over
OUR Devolution , ....


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Negative Nancy :roll:

Brother , IM In total agreement with you ,
And Albeit our Brother Robert may mean well and
Strive to do what HE Feels is the Right Thing ,
Yet for many reasons IMO As youve pointed out
Its Off Base n not needed [my words]

NO Cult/ creed / religion or so called leader or
minister of the FER IS Or will ever be needed ,

Those that may think think so simply misunderstand
or twist the text,

... Actual Living and Shareing it IS ...

The Key .


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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'' It is the readership - past, present, and future - who will determine the importance of the Papers for themselves and will respond to the great opportunity to serve our world by dissemination of this gift, primarily by living such a life that the fruits of the spirit come forth, and secondarily for some, to make the Papers themselves as common as The Cat in the Hat. ''

AMEN


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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fanofVan it's called constructive criticism. The celestials call the proclivity to shelter or hide the truth (talent) for safety and honor etc. a "sorry sight." Would you call that frustration? If so, then yes I am frustrated.

The organizations have done perfectly fine in what they were set up to do - distribute the book, make translations and the rest. I'm not sure where you're getting that I'm frustrated with those organizations. What I've been saying that there needs to be OTHER organizations, religious organizations, that do the other, even more important things the FER asks for. Now if the previous organizations, or readers, or any groups, get in the way of direct requests from the revelators - what I consider to be Michael's wishes and God's commandments - then you better believe they're going to get an earful from me. But that's only if they dare to do such a thing.

Some people are going to disagree, even when quote after quote is displayed showing they want more from us than just personal religion. That's fine. Stay out of it. Leave others to do it.

blessings,
Behz

Stop being offended at everything. I grew up in New York

fanofVan wrote:
I'm all for civil discourse Robert. Is it civil to blame your frustrations on others? Is it civil to broadly characterize the movement and its organizations as failures on our knees? The larger question for you is....how' that working for you?

I wish you well Robert and have, repeatedly, admired your scholarship, your contributions to dissemination, and your sincere desire to bring the teachings to the world in your own way. I sincerely believe you will have far greater success, and I wish for yours, if you would simply stop blaming any others for anything at all and cease to categorize those who walk a different path with different priorities than your own. To each their own.

I would hope that such discourse as you encounter here might contribute to those insights, experience, perspective, and wisdom which would serve your own sincerity and inner journey....as well as whatever service ministry you may choose for yourself. I wish you peace, happiness, success, and all good things!!

Negative Nancy signing off........ :wink: :biggrin: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Robert - So it's constructive criticism when YOU say it but something else when it is offered to you then? I would say that those who serve dissemination have never buried any talent and are anything but a "sorry sight". We've had that discussion about your general disparaging disposition toward those of us who have served dissemination and still do today in the organizations...for me it was the Brotherhood and then the Fellowship and now The Association. I've known those who received their first book from the hands of Forumites and the only reason the Papers are available today in ANY form is by the noble and might efforts of thousands of such disseminators since.

We are not on our knees, we have not failed, we have hidden no talent, and we work in loving service to others who hunger for truth, the reduction of confusion, and the elimination of error by this gift of Revelation in this precious life upon this precious world. We are not "in the way" of the revelation or the revelators....or you. The seed planted 60 years ago has branched and blossomed into an accelerating wonder of fruitful results which today can be witnessed by any who care to see.

I've heard nothing "constructive" about your criticisms and disappointments Robert. It's not up to you to judge and determine who is or is not a "sorry sight"...way above your pay grade. Your frustration and impatience is only of your own making. You'll choke on it soon enough if you don't stop gorging on it so much. It certainly wins you no friends nor improves your potential to influence any others. And New York has nothing to do with it...some very well mannered people there who don't feel the need to throw stones at those they disagree with. See to your own talents brother. I'll see to mine.

8)


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I just said there's no resentment towards those organizations and they've done fine with what their role has been. What's wrong with you? Something else bothering you?

fanofVan wrote:
Robert - So it's constructive criticism when YOU say it but something else when it is offered to you then? I would say that those who serve dissemination have never buried any talent and are anything but a "sorry sight". We've had that discussion about your general disparaging disposition toward those of us who have served dissemination and still do today in the organizations...for me it was the Brotherhood and then the Fellowship and now The Association. I've known those who received their first book from the hands of Forumites and the only reason the Papers are available today in ANY form is by the noble and might efforts of thousands of such disseminators since.

We are not on our knees, we have not failed, we have hidden no talent, and we work in loving service to others who hunger for truth, the reduction of confusion, and the elimination of error by this gift of Revelation in this precious life upon this precious world. We are not "in the way" of the revelation or the revelators....or you. The seed planted 60 years ago has branched and blossomed into an accelerating wonder of fruitful results which today can be witnessed by any who care to see.

I've heard nothing "constructive" about your criticisms and disappointments Robert. It's not up to you to judge and determine who is or is not a "sorry sight"...way above your pay grade. Your frustration and impatience is only of your own making. You'll choke on it soon enough if you don't stop gorging on it so much. It certainly wins you no friends nor improves your potential to influence any others. And New York has nothing to do with it...some very well mannered people there who don't feel the need to throw stones at those they disagree with. See to your own talents brother. I'll see to mine.

8)


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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'' Now if the previous organizations, or readers, or any groups, get in the way of direct requests from the revelators - what I consider to be Michael's wishes and God's commandments - then you better believe they're going to get an earful from me. But that's only if they dare to do such a thing.

Some people are going to disagree, even when quote after quote is displayed showing they want more from us than just personal religion. That's fine. Stay out of it. Leave others to do it.''

Chezzus Robert
So YOU Know just what ...
''[what I consider] to be Michael's wishes and God's commandments ''

ARE ?

OR IS IT Simply your Own Ego ?

Personaly i dont think so tho

Although i think you could share your passion in
more fruitful ways .IMO As You have already done in the past.
Rather than trying to Form a New Urantia religion or ministry ,

I Know whatever i say or others say wont change your mind
or thoughts about what you feel is your mission ,
and that you will ignore or dismiss me an others .

Be Well n May GOD Bless you n yours Brother .


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''Stop being offended at everything. I grew up in New York''

Brother Robert you seem to be the one offended
and on the defense , an as per usual your true colors
come out as in the past n get ... well ...

BTW I Grew Up In Detroit

But Who cares eh


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Wait is this really about this quote?

"This has ever been the error of the religious leaders: Seeing the evils of institutionalized religion, they seek to destroy the technique of group functioning. In place of destroying all ritual, they would do better to reform it."

Is that what this is? Just some bizarre psychological reaction that we were forewarned about? Fascinating. Well I'll pray that you two can break out of it. It'll take more than anonymous trolling to stop spiritual evolution. It's already a done deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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NO
Brother Robert

Your missing the point

YOU Speak but Dont listen .


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You Want a ministry of

Sheep that Will only listen an follow

but not those that CAN And will think for themselves eh

Best wishs to you Paula n anton thee trinity ...


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