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 Post subject: Creed vs. Gospel
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Creed vs. Gospel and how the confusion about their difference has brought this movement to its knees:
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Hi Robert,

What you're pointing out is perhaps the great dilemma of the integration of the Urantia Book, and what it does for the individual and how it necessitates the need for its socialization.

Personally it's the place in life that is at the same time, most gratifying and dismally unsatisfying when I think of the obligation to share the Urantia Book with others. How best to share it has been and still is at the center of what motivates me everyday, besides implementing and experiencing its teachings personally, as a spiritual experience.

(196:3.34) The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man's greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness—contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.

The preceding is rather easy compared to what you're driving at Robert, and I fear it's because of this primarily in two ways, the old way and the new way:

(88:2.7) In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round.

Perhaps the Urantia Papers as an epochal revelation is quite unique in the universe. I will be surprised to find out that every world includes a book as an epochal revelation (if I survive to have this privilege).

Maybe the true purpose of the Urantia Book hasn't yet been determined by anybody who has one.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Or maybe the true purpose of the Urantia Book is that it's only one part of the Fifth Epochal Revelation. And the other part is going to be someone yet to appear on the planet, someone who will hearken the Urantia Book like "another John the Baptist" except that he will be of superhuman authority and origin.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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nod - I agree that a book of knowledge is likely a very rare form of Epochal Revelation. Paper 52 gives great detail as to the procession of successive Mortal Epochs on a world unaffected by a rebellious Prince and a failed/defaulted Garden - Urantia is pretty unusual in both circumstances. I do think that all the information given in the Urantia Book is normally contained in similar books of universe cosmology in the libraries of every inhabited planet...sooner or later, as such a book of facts, knowledge, and truths would be fundamental and elementary to the people on a world where the Prince and Garden and Magisterial Son have "normal" bestowals and successful epochal progress.

I do not find the purpose of the Papers to be particularly difficult to understand as it is thoroughly explained throughout the text itself. It has a twofold purpose but both are quite similar: the reduction of confusion and elimination of error regarding the reality and cosmology and relationship in the universe of universes for the individual believer/religionist to transform the inner life by personal relationship with our paternal creator; and by such transformation of the each, to infect all societies with the virus of love, brotherhood, and service one for another so that, over time, our world becomes ever more responsive to the ministering spirits within....over sufficient time, this would be evolutionary epochal world transformation...by the parts is the whole defined. Individual progress results in planetary progress through the generations of time.

Even a world without rebellion and default, Paper 52 describes the Planetary Mortal Epochs as taking a long, long time with many thousands, tens of thousands, of generations by near-glacial evolutionary speed - faster than geological progressions perhaps but very slowly when compared to any single generation of mortals. The UB clearly states that it is the seed of revealed knowledge planted for many generations to come. I think the Papers will have great global impact over time as such factual knowledge will be a significant fulcrum for the leverage and downward impact of the Spirit of Truth and the Thought Adjusters - increasing their effect upon the minds of believers in God with less confusion and error as obstacles to their ministries in mind.

Robert - a very interesting presentation of paradox....thank you. Best wishes in your own seed planting and ministry to uphold the value of the personal expression of our religious life and the value of like minded believers to gather solely for the purposes of song, ceremony, praise, and worship within groups for the benefits inherent to the group.

Long ago, I was asked to organize the program on Easter Sunday as the final "event" of a three day conference. As it happened the conference was at a religious retreat/campus so there was a lovely chapel available. I printed the words to several well known (and bloodless) hymns and had piano and organ players for our music. We also served a communion and I invited Meredith Sprunger to deliver a message or sermon if you will. Most all who attended were inspired and pleased. But there were some who felt somehow threatened and believed the program to be very inappropriate. This was a pretty large regional conference and the supporters far outnumbered the complainers.....so I empathize with your frustration.

However, and still again, I must rebuke your characterization of this movement as being on "its knees". Such a claim is not only false but it is completely irrelevant to your proposition(s). All you are doing thereby is destroying your own credibility. The three major organizations have historically record support by both donations and members and service ministries to disseminate the book and it's teachings through whole hosts of different ways. The organizations have faced challenges and failures and evolutionary, generational transformations to become far greater today than any time before. Our knees? Really? But the evolutionary seed has sprouted and the page has been turned so that today "the movement" has far greater breadth and depth in the readership and an exponentially growing diversity of dissemination and connectivity of the growing student body. By what possible measure do you declare the movement to have failed or fallen to its knees?

Why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot by such falsehoods? How does this help you?

Just because the Big 3 do not endorse a religion by creed, dogma, a list of beliefs, or otherwise...they certainly do promote unity and religious living and the inner religious life and its expression in service and love to others. Their mission is to disseminate the Revelation and its Teachings by publishing, translating, distribution, education, conferences, study groups, secondary works of art, literature, and commentaries, and the application of technologies and multi-media platforms to introduce the Revelation to the world and introduce the global readership to one another. And now, many besides the Big 3 are likewise engaged in all manner of strategies and techniques in their own ways.

Just sayin'........ 8)

For those so interested, the following links go to mission statements:

http://urantia-association.org/about-uai/

http://www.urantiabook.org/fellowship-p ... ement.html

http://truthbook.com/jesusonian-foundation

http://ubis.urantia.org/moodle/mod/page/view.php?id=70

:idea: :smile: :wink:
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Hi Brad,

fanofVan wrote:
I do think that all the information given in the Urantia Book is normally contained in similar books of universe cosmology in the libraries of every inhabited planet...sooner or later, as such a book of facts, knowledge, and truths would be fundamental and elementary to the people on a world where the Prince and Garden and Magisterial Son have "normal" bestowals and successful epochal progress.

Yes, I think you're right. These books on other worlds would be there as a part of one of the usual epochal revelations that appeared with some superhuman personality, not by itself. That's the point I'm trying to make. By itself epochally, it's missing something. That's how it feels to me, and always did.

What's apparently driving Robert, kind of gets me going too. For the life of me, where's the person (leader) who has what it takes to crack the nut? I don't see how any ordinary mortal can ever pull it off. In my opinion we need the presence of an authoritative person. Somebody like Machiventa Melchizedek. Lord knows we can use the help.

But I'm also fine with it going on like it has been, slow and off the radar.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Fano you said: "Their mission is to disseminate the Revelation and its Teachings by publishing, translating, distribution, education, conferences, study groups, secondary works of art, literature, and commentaries"...

Yes, that's been the sole mission of practically every organization that has been set up for the last eighty years or so. And that's the problem, because while those tasks are important, they don't include the most crucial task. The revelation asks us to set up a "new cult" or the socialized, official religion surrounding the "restatement of the religion of Jesus."

I had the strangest feeling after I made that video. Gave me the creeps really. Maybe you all can help me out here:

Who exactly was it that said that the main role of the organizations was to create thousands of study groups? You know, we hear about what the early contact individuals said should be done, supposedly relayed to them from celestials. We hear about how the celestials said that this should be the primary role of the organizations for a hundred years or whatever. Who exactly said that? And why did we just swallow this as fact?

That's not what the revelation itself says to do. Search it high and low and show me where it says that study groups and book publishing should be our century-long objective, or any kind of objective. Have we been duped?

Eighty years have passed and we not only have we failed to do as asked, but the organizations have actually fought against it. It's unconscionable.

I imagine that Cal is quite happy with the results. Imagine, the Fifth Epochal Revelation is out but its proponents have somehow come to believe that it's best to not share its teachings through a socialized religion for the masses, but only pass a 2000 page, nearly incomprehensible book for the average mortal, to the very few who can comprehend it. If it was me, I would be very pleased.


Last edited by Rsarmast on Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:29 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Why in the world, nodAmanaV, would you be fine with that? You know very well that we're supposed to be giving light to this sorry planet, not "flying under the radar." If that had been the attitude of the apostles we would have never heard of a Jesus.

nodAmanaV wrote:
Hi Brad,

fanofVan wrote:
I do think that all the information given in the Urantia Book is normally contained in similar books of universe cosmology in the libraries of every inhabited planet...sooner or later, as such a book of facts, knowledge, and truths would be fundamental and elementary to the people on a world where the Prince and Garden and Magisterial Son have "normal" bestowals and successful epochal progress.

Yes, I think you're right. These books on other worlds would be there as a part of one of the usual epochal revelations that appeared with some superhuman personality, not by itself. That's the point I'm trying to make. By itself epochally, it's missing something. That's how it feels to me, and always did.

What's apparently driving Robert, kind of gets me going too. For the life of me, where's the person (leader) who has what it takes to crack the nut? I don't see how any ordinary mortal can ever pull it off. In my opinion we need the presence of an authoritative person. Somebody like Machiventa Melchizedek. Lord knows we can use the help.

But I'm also fine with it going on like it has been, slow and off the radar.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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What I'm fine with Robert is doing God's will. If it's God's will that given the fine mess we have on our particular heavenly world, where we have taken the incarnated God and hung him on a tree like an animal, allowed a monster like good ole Cal to roam free and turn this fine world into the ISIS free-for-all that it is then good, I'm for it. If God needs us to flail about in the world with Jesus saves you by his blood and all you have to do is "believe it to be saved" then good enough. If it's God's will to send us a book for us geniuses to read and argue about without there being a framework or institution then good. Show me a leader. Show me where he is. If it's not God's will there be one then good. If it's God's will that we do something that's never been done before, like everyone man up and do God's will like we're supposed to, then good enough. I'm very fine with good enough. I'm not complaining.

Oh and btw, if the Apostles would have been better at what they were good at, this world might be like heaven by now instead of filled with people who think about nothing else but what kind of a car they'll be buying next.

And I'm fine with that too.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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I know that the key to success is tied up in being better parents to our kids. They have the ball. Teach them how to be all that we know they should be because of the book. If your kids are grown, it's too late. Take a nap and have a Margarita when you wake up because trying to teach each other like we don't already all know what to do is a big waste of time. Everyone has their teacher built in. All we end up doing is distracting each other.
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I don't see many who aren't trying there best to be and do what they should. This world is one big disaster. The blind are following the blind. Just ask Donald. We need LEADERSHIP! Not ideas.
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You're right that this mess is way too big for any human being to fix, and there's good reason to believe that a Paradise Son will soon appear. However, that doesn't mean we should sit on our hands in the meantime and watch the world circle the drain.

So let's see if you mean what you say about leadership. You stop looking at others and become the leader, and start the ball rolling on creating a socialized religion out of the revelation. Or if not, I'll take the lead and you join that religion when the time comes. Deal? I'm fine with it either way, but am also strong on the lead, follow or get out of the way approach.

nodAmanaV wrote:
I don't see many who aren't trying there best to be and do what they should. This world is one big disaster. The blind are following the blind. Just ask Donald. We need LEADERSHIP! Not ideas.
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Join what religion? I see no religion to join other than the one down the street at my church. Filled with sincere people who are too scared to follow anything but fear itself. No one is in your way Robert, and real leadership by a human being isn't good enough. All the people of the world are lost and going insane with distraction. I have done all the leading I can do. I lead and I follow. But I can't follow where there isn't REAL LEADERSHIP. Arguing about what the book says, who disseminates it for whatever reason or doesn't, what the contact people said or did won't lead us out of retardation. Until God resolves this problem with leadership from on high, there will only be tension. Especially with those of us who read the book. It's like before the moment the finger pulls the trigger.
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nod - like you I am not complacent about the ills of our world nor blind to them, however, and again like you, I have full faith and confidence in the Most Highs and their many agents and agencies of world ministry and also in the promise in the Papers that Light and Life is, in fact, an inevitability!!! Oh yea of little faith who doubt the certainty and skill of those who rule in the kingdoms of men.

I doubt there is a Son about to swoop in and change the world or save it from its own primitivisms by some revolutionary or armaggedon style "takeover" or any such thing. As only the 5th of Epochal Revelations whose ministry is to be measured, according to text, by centuries (or longer), such obvious impatience (a mind poison in its own right and duly listed as such) is the angst of the immature mind who sees only darkness and feels entrapped in an emergency rather than utilizing the time unit perspective that verifies the amount and the quality and the velocity of planetary progress we are witness to today!! There is much and many that cries out for the ministry of love, truth, beauty, and goodness...so let us be about the Father's business.

And so many have and are. There is no lack of leadership in the Big 3....or on our world. But none of the 3 have any interest in any presumption of power or authority or the elevation of any single person to any position of status. Thank God!!

Robert's constant whining and complaining about other organizations is truly what is outrageous and "unconscionable". No apocrypha is needed to know what to do with such a gift.....disseminate, translate, and connect the student body to share the gift one with another. The Charters and Bylaws of the Big 3 are public and were formed by their earliest members and amended over time according to the will of the membership and experience of the leadership...and hundreds have served as servant-leaders to the many thousands of members - voting members in the case of the Fellowship and Association and Brotherhood before. And it's only been 60 years since the first book was printed Robert....what "eighty" years has passed? And do you think 80 years to be a "long" time in the planetary mortal epochs of evolutionary progress - or 100 or 300 years? Some take hundreds of thousands of years friend....many thousands of generations. But I do think velocity is increasing and the ship has sailed and sometimes change does come suddenly....so let us hope for more progress, greater progress....and faster progress!

I wonder how the policies and priorities of the Big 3 and their thousands of members/donors/supporters around the globe today deliver any form of obstacle to Robert and those who agree with him? Hasn't your church and website been around for a decade or so? What's the membership? How's the traction? Is someone or any group responsible for your lack of either? Just not getting it. And if you're interested in gaining supporters from the groups supporting the Big 3, do you really think that accusations of failure, indifference, and incompetence of the organizations they support will win some over to you?

Anger, accusations, falsehoods, and impatience. Bad form and manners and strategy and tactics and motive....all within your intent to form a church or religion. Who's stopping you? Perhaps it is you who is the who? The sky is not really falling Robert and while some may take such bait...it is unlikely the student body of the Revelation will provide many sheep for such a fold. You might want to try a positive statement of your philosophy and your ministry as it now seems wrapped in anger, fear, disappointment, and accusation....hardly an attractive wrapper no matter what's inside of it. Just sayin'.

8)
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Okay well we're told to create a formal, socialized religion out of the revelation's teachings - the new and better cult. And if we follow their directions, that will need members and ministers. You know, just like Machiventa did things - actual members that "belong to something." So if we do that, and it's much better than the fearful church down your street. Would you join it?

nodAmanaV wrote:
Join what religion? I see no religion to join other than the one down the street at my church. Filled with sincere people who are too scared to follow anything but fear itself. No one is in your way Robert, and real leadership by a human being isn't good enough. All the people of the world are lost and going insane with distraction. I have done all the leading I can do. I lead and I follow. But I can't follow where there isn't REAL LEADERSHIP. Arguing about what the book says, who disseminates it for whatever reason or doesn't, what the contact people said or did won't lead us out of retardation. Until God resolves this problem with leadership from on high, there will only be tension. Especially with those of us who read the book. It's like before the moment the finger pulls the trigger.
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 Post subject: Re: Creed vs. Gospel
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Greetings,

Jesus said this about leadership:

In my universe and in my Father’s universe of universes, our brethren-sons are dealt with as individuals in all their spiritual relations, but in all group relationships we unfailingly provide for definite leadership. Our kingdom is a realm of order, and where two or more will creatures act in co-operation, there is always provided the authority of leadership. 181:2:16

Seems to me that if two people get together in a cooperative effort to do something worthwhile within "the kingdom," the universe always provides a leader with authority. If two will creatures in search of a cause are still looking for a leader, then there must be something wrong with the cause.

Also, we're supposed to socialize our personalities, not books. Books are not people. Books can't socialize, books cannot join cults. Inanimate things can't fellowship. The Urantia Papers cannot be a cult. And incidentally study groups are cults. They're groups of personalities socializing around a common cause. Seems to me that they're doing exactly what the Papers said would, or must, happen. This is basic common sense, in my opinion.

In Friendship,
Rexford
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