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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Rexford wrote:
Greetings nod,

nodAmanaV wrote:
Anyone who has studied the Urantia Book already knows what the words say, they're in black and white, fixed.


Obviously long time readers of the Papers already know the words, but it's abundantly obvious to me that not everyone understands what they mean. And how can they if understanding is looked upon with such resentment.

Yet, I agree that meanings may differ from person to person, age to age. What I don't agree to is altering the text to suit the meaning you've attached to the words. Jim George did that very thing in his last post.

For example, the first quote below is Jim George's version, the second is the real quote.

Jim George wrote:
The more of science you know, the less sure you can be; the more of religion you have attained through personal spiritual experience, the more certain you are.


Quote:
The more of science you know, the less sure you can be; the more of religion you have, the more certain you are. 102:1:3


I don't think Jim has the right to rewrite the revelation and give it an entirely new meaning to suit himself. I understand why he did that, but it doesn't make it right. It's another example of the ends justifying the means.

The quote doesn't say that you become more certain through personal spiritual experience. The next paragraph explains that religion gives more certainty than science because it involves more than just intellect, but it does not exclude intellect. Jim's rewrite excludes intellect and throws all his apples in the personal spiritual experience cart. The authors say we're supposed to use our personality to unite body, mind and spirit. Mind and body cannot be ignored as Jim suggests with his rewrite.

Jim also embellished Jesus' words "Seek first the kingdom of God." Jim added the words "then apply yourself to its realization".

Jim George wrote:
Jesus made it very clear to those who had ears to hear. Seek first the kingdom, then apply yourself to its realization.


Jesus never said that and it's not written in the text. I understand why he wrote that too, but that's not at all what Jesus meant when he said those words. The "then" that Jesus added was "all other things essential to eternal survival shall be secured therewith". It's another version of "seek and ye shall find". Jim's rewrite states that we seek and then give. Jesus' words state that we seek and then get. There's a huge, huge, huge difference there. Do you think Jim has the right to change the meaning of Jesus' words to suit himself? He can do that, but in private, not in a public forum where there are readers who are trying to learn from the Revelation.

Do you get it? That's why I'm here, to point out these little quality control issues that if not attended to will eventually hamper the entire mission. I worked on some of the equipment for the first lunar landing. None of the materials I was responsible for had a problem on that mission, I can tell you that. If you don't like nitpickers, too bad. We have a role in this enterprise.

You, Jim, Robert and Manny can all put your apples into the cart and go with it, but who knows where that apple cart is really going. What road are you on? I don't know. The wise thing to do is examine the cart, the apples and the road before selling the farm. Be wise as serpents, he said.

Rex


Thanks for this Rex. You are an exemplary scholar, student teacher, and friend to the Revelation. I value your attention to detail and to meanings and to the actualization and personal realization of the teachings. You require me to think, reconsider, re-evaluate, study, and challenge my own perspective in a most helpful way. You're a big help to this tadpole! Thanks for being here.

:wink: :smile: :idea: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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nodAmanaV wrote:
The Urantia Book is not the revelation, you are.


Ahhhhhh........yes, I got that proposition. But the Papers will be here far longer than I, in "black and white" as you say. It is true the book has no value to me or any other without living the truths discovered and learning to respond better and wiser at every intersection of experience. Does the study of the teachings prevent the living of them? Or activate them?

The authors claim the Papers are the revelation of fact and truth to reduce confusions and eliminate errors in our efforts to understand and activate the spirit relationship into our mortal experience and to embrace the spirit within as the pilot for our ascendant adventures.

Could it not be both rather than one or the other I wonder? While I may give the light of love and service to others and reveal the fruits of the spirit as I grow in experience, am I or can I be a revelation to others? An epochal revelation compared to the celestials' gift to us? For there are only two forms of "revelation", according to the black and white text you know so well nod - there is epochal and personal. Are you claiming that I can give personal revelation to another? Are not the spirits of the Father, Mother, and Son those who bring personal revelation to the each? And the Papers the latest epochal revelation?

What should I be doing....that I am not already doing? I disagree that I am a revelation or can be - but I can live the revelation of truth within as best I understand it and sincerely express it in my daily walk.

8)


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Say what nod?

nodAmanaV wrote:
The Urantia Book is not the revelation, you are.


I think you should add a caveat to that. None of us can be a revelation unless we let the Spirit do his own work as explained in the quote below:

When man yields the "fruits of the spirit" in his life, he is simply showing forth the traits which the Master manifested in his own earthly life. When Jesus was on earth, he lived his life as one personality—Jesus of Nazareth. As the indwelling spirit of the "new teacher," the Master has, since Pentecost, been able to live his life anew in the experience of every truth-taught believer. 194:3:1

And you're completely wrong about the Urantia Papers not being the Revelation. They are the Fifth Epochal Revelation. You, as a human person, can only be an example of personal revelation. Huge, huge, huge difference there.

Sorry to be such a nitpicker, but you can't just throw statements like that around and expect people to swallow them hook, line and sinker like stupid fish. I love fishing, but fish are not wise, which is why I can catch them.

Rex


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Alright nitpicking Rexford, I'll rephrase it for you:

You are the applecart.

Rexford wrote:
Do you get it?


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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fanofVan wrote:
I disagree that I am a revelation or can be
One day my good friend and brother Brad, you and I will meet each other, look each other in the eye. One thing I can predict about that moment, you will most certainly be a revelation to me.

(140:8.20) Could you have had but one look at him, you would have known that Jesus was a real man of great experience in the things of this world.


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Greetings nod,

nodAmanaV wrote:
You are the applecart.


Did you know that The Applecart is a play by George Bernard Shaw? It's about depriving a king of the right to influence public opinion through the press.

And, if it's true as you say, if I am the applecart, why aren't you getting onboard? Why aren't you helping me move it along?

Anyway, don't answer that. I'm not sure I want to be the applecart if the apples are rotten, as I suspect. Your attempt at metaphor really isn't impressing me much. Sorry. Don't give up your day job.

Rex


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Greetings,

Nod asked a good question. He wants to know what I'm moving along. Well, let me continue explaining. (Don't forget, you asked for this.)

Jim George has said some things which desperately need clarification. I'm here to do that. One of the things he said is that he has had visions. He also claims to have direct spirit contact, communication with his Adjuster. He has stated more than once that God showed him what is planned for Urantia. Here are some of his quotes:

Quote:
In 1970, before I had ever heard of the Urantia Book I was clearly shown that the next version of Life, a completely new operating system was about to come upon the planet.

First let me again state that while I categorically state that my insight is real and comes from real spirit contact, any explanation I might proffer is false.

It doesn’t say we can’t achieve real communication with our Thought Adjuster, it says we can! So, those of us who have should be of like mind, shouldn’t we?

God showed me very clearly in 1970 that these things will happen.

I seem to perceive reality as pictures (picturizations from my Thought Adjuster) and attempt to qualify them through personal confrontation of my self-centeredness.

A few days later in a completely separate situation, God showed me what he is planning for Urantia.


Do you think it is wise to to accept Jim's visions and Adjuster communications without questioning them? Even Jim admits that his explanations are false (see above quote). Personally, I don't trust people's visions and spirit contacts. Even Paul and John's visions were twisted. What makes you think that Jim's visions aren't twisted too? It seems logical to me and I'm not even Spock. So there's no reason to push this apple cart down whatever road it's on, because it looks to me like it's possible that the road might end at the cliff.

And there's more. Jim wrote the following:

Quote:
The main issue here is that I experienced a spiritual transformation in conjunction with God which was permanent and complete and which enables me to use the Urantia Book as an explanation of what HAS HAPPENED to me rather than merely presenting a hope of what could happen if I desired.


I don't know if you're picking up on this, but his whole schtick is about him and his personal religious experience. He says that his spiritual transformation was permanent and COMPLETE. What does that mean? Is he a perfected person? Since when is a spiritual transformation complete? Maybe he meant something else, but I find this statement troublesome. Transformation is supposed to be an ongoing affair. I think he must know that, but his words say otherwise. This is why I question. How many false messiahs do we have to suffer before people come to their senses? I'm not saying that Jim is a false messiah, I'm saying we have every right to be concerned about such things. After all, isn't he trying to start a church? I think church leaders, cult leaders, need extreme scrutiny. We have been bamboozled by so many charlatans that it's time to get wise about it.

Jim made another comment that piqued my curiosity about his motives. Here it is:

Quote:
He did ask us to take the beam out of our own eyes that we might the better remove the splinter from our neighbor. I have found that taking the beam out is a lot of deep personal work and it takes a major commitment and a long time. I have also found the results to be just what he said.


In essence, what Jim is saying here is that he has done all the work of removing the mote in his own eye, so now he has the liberty to remove the motes in your eyes and mine. That takes a lot of chutzpah. He is giving himself the authority to tell us what we should and shouldn't be doing, because he has reached a point of clear vision. Don't you have a problem with that? I do, especially if he's a cult leader, or wants to be one. Perhaps there are some here that might have clearer vision than he. Then what? Will he accept that? Will he allow someone else to take the mote out of his eye? It works both ways.

Okay, I'm not done. Not even close. Remember, you asked for this. Jim asks:

Quote:
-wait a minute, are we being told that dishonesty and insincerity are sin? We are being told that delay is the result of even honest and sincere doubt. What must that mean?


Why do you suppose he asks these questions in regards to the following quote?

But honest doubts and sincere questionings are not sin; such attitudes merely spell delay in the progressive journey toward perfection attainment. 102:1:1

What he is implying there is that any doubt as to the validity of some of the things he is saying is delaying progress, progress of God's will on earth. It's a direct attack on questioners as though their honest and sincere doubts are really dishonest and insincere, therefore sinful. That's what cult leaders do; they shame people who don't believe them. They accuse them of being sinners. Now isn't that something to be concerned about nod? Truly you must be able to see where the door is open there for real mischief.

Jim also wrote this:

Quote:
Jesus repeatedly demands we use personal experience as the supreme validation and authority of our spiritual life.


On the surface, such a statement seems innocuous. But it implies that any person's personal experience (he left out the word religious) has authority in our spiritual life. That would include his own personal religious experience validates his spiritual life and he's using it to influence mine. Not so. Revelation is required for validation of personal religious experience (see quote below). Not all personal religious experiences are valid.

For example. When I was a kid I had a friend who claimed he saw angels who were telling him God's secrets. He was an artist and painted all the angels he saw. They were all humans covered in feathers, large man-birds. I lost contact with him when he entered the state psychiatric hospital. He told me some of those secrets and they scared the crap out of me back then. My friend's personal religious experiences were bogus. It took me a while to shake it all off, to tell you the truth. So now I'm careful with that, very careful, as you should be. Anyone who tells me that I should disregard reason for personal religious experience, particularly his/her own, has my sincere and honest doubts.

Reason, through the study of science, may lead back through nature to a First Cause, but it requires religious faith to transform the First Cause of science into a God of salvation; and revelation is further required for the validation of such a faith, such spiritual insight. 101:2:3

Personally, I don't doubt Jim's or anyone else's faith. I'm sure everyone here is God-conscious and God-loving. That is not the issue. I also think that Jim has good intentions. I admire his devotion to his beliefs. But I don't necessarily agree with him on everything. My guess is that you, nod, would prefer that I keep my disagreements to myself. But I can't. Sorry. I live in the real world.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: LIFE 5.0
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Thank you very much Rexford, for your honest and gracious reply. I definitely appreciate the tone and I will give you a like response soon. I hope that we will continue to discuss Jim''s topic as well as others from now on with this constructive timbre. I too, can tone it down.

Yes, in Friendship,
nodAmanaV


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nod - I am confused about your words "....from now on....", as if Rex or anyone else here needed to "tone it down"....besides you. I'm glad you're feeling more in control of your emotions and your emoting both. So far as I can tell, Rexford has been patiently trying to understand the proposition proffered here by Jim as have others.

It is not Rex's proposition being considered here and given comparative reflection to the text. It is not Rex who has shown an obsession with what others "are doing" or "not doing" here nor Rex that has accused others of being apple shiners and arrangers and unhelpful with pushing the apple cart....whatever that might be. There has been no obstruction to or departures from the conversation but that offered by you. Jim's proposition deserves evaluation and discussion which often leads to disagreement and/or adjustment to elements of the proposition or the very premise of such a proposition. It is unfortunate you find such study, reflection, discussion, and disagreement to be so disagreeable to you.....but that's you and your problem. Rex needs no absolution for his excellent research and honest perspective here.

For my part, I remain quite interested in the original topic focused on the increasing magnification and amplification of planetary upliftment mortal epochs and successive epochal revelations. But that was but part of Jim's proposition. At the very core, is the issue that seems to often capture you as well as others, perhaps Jim as well - and that is this preponderance of some believers who express dissatisfaction, frustration, and opinions as to who is doing what and not doing whatever and what they/we should be doing that we're not related to learning from the Papers and living those teachings embraced into the personal journey of spiritization and ascendance.

Frankly nod, I tire of your obsession on the matter....it is simply none of your business what anyone else is doing and your criticisms only shine a light on this point....over and over. To assume others do nothing or too little or something other than you might wish or deem important is very immature and unhelpful in every conversation and topic where it comes up....whether by you or any other. We may assess and discern another's fruit, agenda, intentions, and sincerity based on our experience and wisdom - but it is baseless and dangerous judgment to tell any other what should have been done, what should be done, what will be done, and who should do what and compare the value, worth, and meaning of what one believer chooses as an expression of the inner life and journey over another.

Get over it!! I find such piety and superiority truly disgusting and hardly worthy of any true student of the "black and white" or the Jesusonian gospel. So very apostolic as opposed to the foot washing we are taught instead. So, if you think someone to be misunderstood, I look forward to your contributions to better understanding. If you agree with something but disagree with something else, I look forward to your reasoned and substantiated perspective. Your tone is but the one problem here and your focus on what others are or are not doing is but one other.

This nonsense you post about the Papers being but ink on paper and people being the revelation to others is another one, a big one. You belittle the gift of the 5th and those who study it, here and everywhere, by such claims. This is precisely why the Big 3 plus TruthBook plus UBIS are dedicated to dissemination of the Papers, as gifted, and the teachings within. Paraphrasing from memory leads to misstating and misunderstanding of the gift given to our world. Even scholars depend upon the text book of that which they are scholars. It is not a holy book or the word OF god...but it is a critical text book of knowledge - fact and truth - for a whole world for many, many generations to come. You say you believe that and then you disparage it and those who study it. Not getting it.

Those who attend here, and both learn and teach, are pushing the dang apple cart nod. We are taught we have not learned what we cannot teach and that all of life forever is a school of experience with that which is learned. I am here to learn what the text says, to discuss what it says, and to discover what that means to others and to their daily walk as mortal ascenders on the glory trail to Paradise. I presume every believer with faith demonstrates their faith in very unique and personalized ways, as is intended, and have no need for any other to "measure up" or "follow me". Each are given our talents and we will each answer for the stewardship we give to our own talents so issued. Tadpoles measuring tadpoles is too sublimely ridiculous to behold without a big belly laugh. I offer this rebuke as one brother student concerned for another nod. I have often deserved such admonitions myself for multiple reasons.

The following link is to a written version of a presentation a few years ago in Australia at an Association conference entitled:

We Are What We Teach http://urantia-association.org/2012/05/ ... -we-teach/

Enjoy 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Mar 24, 2016 2:17 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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102:6.5 Convictions about God may be arrived at through wise reasoning, but the individual becomes God-knowing only by faith, through personal experience. In much that pertains to life, probability must be reckoned with, but when contacting with cosmic reality, certainty may be experienced when such meanings and values are approached by living faith. The God-knowing soul dares to say, “I know,” even when this knowledge of God is questioned by the unbeliever who denies such certitude because it is not wholly supported by intellectual logic. To every such doubter the believer only replies, “How do you know that I do not know?”


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Nice quote Manny - I'm pretty sure it is about one's personal conviction of and relationship with God. The certainty of that relationship is a treasure like the pearl of great price and is all the guide one needs to grow in the spirit. Such personal revelation and conviction remains very personal I think. But it is hoped that such assurance is expressed in the believer's daily walk and at every intersection of experience. Only the believer and God knows the heart, motive, and intention of their own life and choices. None here has questioned anyone's faith or conviction or denied anyone's certitude as to Father within....we all celebrate that fact here at TruthBook. We are taught we may be far more certain of and in God and his love for us and guiding pilot than in our understanding of God. Wisdom takes time. Perfection takes forever...or near enough.

:idea: 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
None here has questioned anyone's faith or conviction or denied anyone's certitude as to Father within....we all celebrate that fact here at TruthBook.


None here has cast any stones. I wrote this quote in the sand with my pointed finger. By some miracle it appeared on this forum. 8)


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:smile: :D :lol: 8)

Well none but one....and not you. :wink:


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102:4.1 Because of the presence in your minds of the Thought Adjuster, it is no more of a mystery for you to know the mind of God than for you to be sure of the consciousness of knowing any other mind, human or superhuman. Religion and social consciousness have this in common: They are predicated on the consciousness of other-mindness. The technique whereby you can accept another’s idea as yours is the same whereby you may “let the mind which was in Christ be also in you.”


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(196:3.17) Personal religious experience consists in two phases: discovery in the human mind and revelation by the indwelling divine spirit. Through oversophistication or as a result of the irreligious conduct of professed religionists, a man, or even a generation of men, may elect to suspend their efforts to discover the God who indwells them; they may fail to progress in and attain the divine revelation. But such attitudes of spiritual nonprogression cannot long persist because of the presence and influence of the indwelling Thought Adjusters.


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