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 Post subject: Re: The Urantia Religion
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Hey Rex, you bumped ahead of me again!


Greetings Brad,

Yes, I was in the middle of responding earlier and suddenly my job as the local worm farmer (I have a lot of fishermen friends besides you all) took precedence.

Just kidding.

Like Jim George, I still work everyday.

I look forward to responding to you all real soon though. I hope you won't find what I have to say funny.

All kidding aside, I want you to know I appreciate you. I mean that.

In the Trenches with You my Brothers,
nodAmanaV


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Some Humor from the Trenches :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj60OAh7O5U


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Fellas,

If you dish it out, you can take it right?

Why do you have a problem with someone saying to you what you say to them?

Why do you react as if nobody has the authority to say something about the Urantia Book and its Movement except you?

What happened that you feel the need to tell people like Robert to "STFU" for expressing what he thinks is God's Supreme will?

When did you Goodfellas become the last word on what's right and wrong and why do you constantly do what you accuse others of doing when excuse me, they're not?

And when you don't like hearing what others say about this or that, and react as if you're being told to do something or how to interpret something, why then do you go right ahead and do the (supposed) same thing?

Does everything always have to be agreeable with you and if it's not, do you really need to let us know?

That's all I've been asking.


And BTW, I ask questions because it's a better way to communicate. Don't you think?


Sincerely,
The perfectly imperfect, nodAmanaV


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You talkin' to me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4d8PHDG4yE


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nod quips:

If you dish it out, you can take it right?

Why do you have a problem with someone saying to you what you say to them?

Why do you react as if nobody has the authority to say something about the Urantia Book and its Movement except you?

What happened that you feel the need to tell people like Robert to "STFU" for expressing what he thinks is God's Supreme will?

When did you Goodfellas become the last word on what's right and wrong and why do you constantly do what you accuse others of doing when excuse me, they're not?

And when you don't like hearing what others say about this or that, and react as if you're being told to do something or how to interpret something, why then do you go right ahead and do the (supposed) same thing?

Does everything always have to be agreeable with you and if it's not, do you really need to let us know?

That's all I've been asking.


And BTW, I ask questions because it's a better way to communicate. Don't you think?


Sincerely,
The perfectly imperfect, nodAmanaV


So.....no response then to your request for a response to your specific request for them which was proffered as requested? Instead, we are dished a broadside indictment of multiple opinions and posters. You've got quite the Jeckyll and Hyde thing going on there nod.

As to authority....my own comes strictly from what the UB says and doesn't say when compared to what other's may claim it says that it does not or does not say what it clearly does say. I guess a working knowledge of the contents of the UB might be called scholarship or time in the text. Anything I write which is not text posted is pure opinion....not authority, and is disclosed as such with much frequency.

As far as the "movement" is concerned, my experience with and knowledge of the history and current status of the process and progress made since the first book was printed to the current state of affairs is something that is easily and empirically verifiable. Anyone who claims there is no movement in the movement has an agenda or a bad case of ignorance. Whichever it may be, yours is on display on this thread. How long you been in the "movement"? In what capacity? Have you googled "Urantia" lately? Exactly how few of us are doing how little?

Right and wrong is for the individual to determine based on their knowledge, discernment, understanding,experience, and wisdom...and is often more a function of one's motive than a situation or circumstance. The divergence of opinion is hardly ever a right/wrong issue so much as a different perspective on reality or truth.

The science and art of argument depends heavily upon reason, evidence, consistency of logic, and the conflicts or contradictions to those demonstrated by either party so engaged. For example your claim that there is no movement in the movement...a most uninformed opinion lacking reason, evidence, and logic....the trifecta!! Or when you claim that the Parable of the Talents means something that it obviously does not mean...which is clearly provided in the text itself - read Nathaniel's understanding as posted by Rexford for that which confirms my opinion posted contrary to your own.

I will confess to many years of academic study of logic, philosophy, and competitive debating and a love for good argument. By the way, to be a tournament debater, one must argue equally well and persuasively for both sides of every argument, alternating sides round by round, or no trophies!! It's been a great education and skill throughout my life. The truth rarely is found on either extreme of argument but is most often found hiding in between...a most interesting truth itself. Lies are similarly difficult to discern....the better lie is at least half true but the best lie is all true and yet a lie nonetheless.

This is a study group site. We study....together. Agreement is not a prerequisite for discourse and learning. But the student who goes uncorrected makes for a lousy teacher to anyone else. This is an educational format as well as a socialization site for serious religionists engaged in the study of a lengthy and detailed textbook of knowledge. If you don't get that, what is the purpose for being here? Two plus two does not equal two. Shall we agree with those who say it does?

I learn much by many others here and have for four years now. My perspective has changed and my knowledge increased and many personal misconceptions have been remedied by the scholarship diversity here. If one cannot accept being wrong, one will learn nothing they don't already know....I believe the Papers call that prejudice....a mind poison.

Declarative statements are not questions nod....and you've made plenty of those clearly false declarations. Got a question? Ask away! But it would deliver better conversation and discourse if you would also respond to questions and respond to the responses you have requested rather than simply ignore them or crack ill-timed so-called "jokes".

Now a dish of disparagement for those you claim to "appreciate" so much. A very odd demonstration of being "in the trenches" with anyone. Whatever. Tadpole to tadpole....you might want to get a grip.

8)


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What a ya sayin?

https://youtu.be/F_Qj8VYizN8


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I'm going to attempt to take this topic a new direction in the hopes that we might consider one of nod's earlier questions about the inevitabilities to come in the planetary mortal epochs....which include one language, one government, one religion, etc.

I'd like to move away from (if possible) the discussion/debate on the claimed mandate and urgency for a church to arise from the gift of the UB and consider other possible trajectories and paths to the inevitable still to come. Let me reiterate my sincere respect and appreciation for Robert's and Jim's commitment to their own priorities and ministries based on and on behalf of the Urantia Papers...our disagreements are only about priority and mandate...not the value and meaning of the individual believer's personal motives, priorities, and strategies in serving others and the dissemination of the Papers as I am certain of their scholarship and good intentions. We must each choose for ourselves how best to serve God and the family of humanity and I have no quarrel with their choices of expression and service.

We are taught that it is the brotherhood of all humanity that must come prior to the early stages of Light and Life, so IMO, every social, political, and religious transition between now and L&L must, somehow, serve the unification or unity of all mortals on the planet....this is the goal....and it will take yet many centuries to achieve. And we are taught, that all mortal priorities are best served by a "time unit" perspective that employs patience and time to achieve meaningful change in a planet's mortal epochal progression toward L&L. Finally, as preface, we are taught that today the Christian religion is the cocoon which holds the metamorphic transition to the Jesusonian Era (not L&L) where all come to believe in the paternity of our Creator and the resulting family of ALL beings in creation. So, IMO, the final religion to come is hardly the next one.

Jesus gave us the example of exalting all truth shared in common...first! We are seeing many signs today of cross-fertilization and cooperation of many monotheistic religions as has been increasingly demonstrated at the Parliament of World Religions and disaster/crisis relief. Today there are hundreds of "Christian" denominations and dozens of other monotheist religions (even most Buddhists are such) which already teach the paternity of God and the brotherhood of humanity as basic tenets of shared faith...my estimate is this "group" comprises over 95% of the global population today (of course, racism and sexism and faithism and culturalism and nationalism and other ism's are still very common too). It is my belief that the Spirit of Truth has been extremely successful in this evolutionary process and result.

We also know that more and more, Christians are identifying themselves as spiritual beings who believe in God and the family of humanity but are unaffiliated with a formal church or religion. I wonder how these realities are working together to promote harmony and peace amidst hate and carnage and where such trajectories might lead?

The book of knowledge we have been given is slowly but certainly spreading its access and its influence and that every monotheist owes their religion to either the third or the fourth epochal revelation of fact and truth to the world which means the fifth is here to follow up and add impetus to the prior revelations to help us bridge from one mortal epoch to the next prior to the next Son's bestowal mission to come.

I look forward to consideration of how humanity moves forward from here and the role the Papers might have in this evolutionary processional through the Epochs to L&L.

8)

52:6.2 (597.3) Even on normal evolutionary worlds the realization of the world-wide brotherhood of man is not an easy accomplishment. On a confused and disordered planet like Urantia such an achievement requires a much longer time and necessitates far greater effort. Unaided social evolution can hardly achieve such happy results on a spiritually isolated sphere. Religious revelation is essential to the realization of brotherhood on Urantia. While Jesus has shown the way to the immediate attainment of spiritual brotherhood, the realization of social brotherhood on your world depends much on the achievement of the following personal transformations and planetary adjustments:


52:6.3 (597.4) 1. Social fraternity. Multiplication of international and interracial social contacts and fraternal associations through travel, commerce, and competitive play. Development of a common language and the multiplication of multilinguists. The racial and national interchange of students, teachers, industrialists, and religious philosophers.

52:6.4 (597.5) 2. Intellectual cross-fertilization. Brotherhood is impossible on a world whose inhabitants are so primitive that they fail to recognize the folly of unmitigated selfishness. There must occur an exchange of national and racial literature. Each race must become familiar with the thought of all races; each nation must know the feelings of all nations. Ignorance breeds suspicion, and suspicion is incompatible with the essential attitude of sympathy and love.

52:6.5 (597.6) 3. Ethical awakening. Only ethical consciousness can unmask the immorality of human intolerance and the sinfulness of fratricidal strife. Only a moral conscience can condemn the evils of national envy and racial jealousy. Only moral beings will ever seek for that spiritual insight which is essential to living the golden rule.

52:6.6 (598.1) 4. Political wisdom. Emotional maturity is essential to self-control. Only emotional maturity will insure the substitution of international techniques of civilized adjudication for the barbarous arbitrament of war. Wise statesmen will sometime work for the welfare of humanity even while they strive to promote the interest of their national or racial groups. Selfish political sagacity is ultimately suicidal — destructive of all those enduring qualities which insure planetary group survival.

52:6.7 (598.2) 5. Spiritual insight. The brotherhood of man is, after all, predicated on the recognition of the fatherhood of God. The quickest way to realize the brotherhood of man on Urantia is to effect the spiritual transformation of present-day humanity. The only technique for accelerating the natural trend of social evolution is that of applying spiritual pressure from above, thus augmenting moral insight while enhancing the soul capacity of every mortal to understand and love every other mortal. Mutual understanding and fraternal love are transcendent civilizers and mighty factors in the world-wide realization of the brotherhood of man.


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140:1.2 (1568.5) “The new kingdom which my Father is about to set up in the hearts of his earth children is to be an everlasting dominion. There shall be no end of this rule of my Father in the hearts of those who desire to do his divine will. I declare to you that my Father is not the God of Jew or gentile. Many shall come from the east and from the west to sit down with us in the Father’s kingdom, while many of the children of Abraham will refuse to enter this new brotherhood of the rule of the Father’s spirit in the hearts of the children of men.

140:1.3 (1568.6) “The power of this kingdom shall consist, not in the strength of armies nor in the might of riches, but rather in the glory of the divine spirit that shall come to teach the minds and rule the hearts of the reborn citizens of this heavenly kingdom, the sons of God. This is the brotherhood of love wherein righteousness reigns, and whose battle cry shall be: Peace on earth and good will to all men. This kingdom, which you are so soon to go forth proclaiming, is the desire of the good men of all ages, the hope of all the earth, and the fulfillment of the wise promises of all the prophets.

170:5.9 (1864.9) The kingdom of Jesus’ teaching, the spiritual ideal of individual righteousness and the concept of man’s divine fellowship with God, became gradually submerged into the mystic conception of the person of Jesus as the Redeemer-Creator and spiritual head of a socialized religious community. In this way a formal and institutional church became the substitute for the individually spirit-led brotherhood of the kingdom.

170:5.10 (1864.10) The church was an inevitable and useful social result of Jesus’ life and teachings; the tragedy consisted in the fact that this social reaction to the teachings of the kingdom so fully displaced the spiritual concept of the real kingdom as Jesus taught and lived it.

170:5.11 (1865.1) The kingdom, to the Jews, was the Israelite community; to the gentiles it became the Christian church. To Jesus the kingdom was the sum of those individuals who had confessed their faith in the fatherhood of God, thereby declaring their wholehearted dedication to the doing of the will of God, thus becoming members of the spiritual brotherhood of man.

170:5.12 (1865.2) The Master fully realized that certain social results would appear in the world as a consequence of the spread of the gospel of the kingdom; but he intended that all such desirable social manifestations should appear as unconscious and inevitable outgrowths, or natural fruits, of this inner personal experience of individual believers, this purely spiritual fellowship and communion with the divine spirit which indwells and activates all such believers.

170:5.13 (1865.3) Jesus foresaw that a social organization, or church, would follow the progress of the true spiritual kingdom, and that is why he never opposed the apostles’ practicing the rite of John’s baptism. He taught that the truth-loving soul, the one who hungers and thirsts for righteousness, for God, is admitted by faith to the spiritual kingdom; at the same time the apostles taught that such a believer is admitted to the social organization of disciples by the outward rite of baptism.

170:5.14 (1865.4) When Jesus’ immediate followers recognized their partial failure to realize his ideal of the establishment of the kingdom in the hearts of men by the spirit’s domination and guidance of the individual believer, they set about to save his teaching from being wholly lost by substituting for the Master’s ideal of the kingdom the gradual creation of a visible social organization, the Christian church. And when they had accomplished this program of substitution, in order to maintain consistency and to provide for the recognition of the Master’s teaching regarding the fact of the kingdom, they proceeded to set the kingdom off into the future. The church, just as soon as it was well established, began to teach that the kingdom was in reality to appear at the culmination of the Christian age, at the second coming of Christ.

194:2.8 (2061.6) Jesus lived a life which is a revelation of man submitted to the Father’s will, not an example for any man literally to attempt to follow. This life in the flesh, together with his death on the cross and subsequent resurrection, presently became a new gospel of the ransom which had thus been paid in order to purchase man back from the clutch of the evil one — from the condemnation of an offended God. Nevertheless, even though the gospel did become greatly distorted, it remains a fact that this new message about Jesus carried along with it many of the fundamental truths and teachings of his earlier gospel of the kingdom. And, sooner or later, these concealed truths of the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of men will emerge to effectually transform the civilization of all mankind.

:idea: :!: :smile: :wink: 8)



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Well.....perhaps this topic has come to a rest for now. For those so interested, the following link will take you to an even longer discussion about 7 years ago here on TruthBook with over 20 posters and 18 pages of posts for additional background on the issue.

Enjoy! viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3127

8) I look forward to further discussion as it may arise.


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Sorry Brad,

I haven't responded because I'm not sure what it is you want to talk about. Could you whittle it down to a sentence, or maybe two?

Thanks in advance,
Rexford


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Yes....wordiness....what was that term you used before? Guilty.

I hope to discuss the role the UB might play in the evolutionary epochal progress and its import, eventually, to religious unity as opposed to it becoming "a religion" as a replacement for evolutionary religions.

I don't think the Papers are a religion. But some parts of the readership do believe so and others will too. Not my bag but I know the epochal nature of this gift and its potential effect on progress.

8)


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Greetings Brad,

I think the Papers are a religious revelation, but not a religion. I'm not sure everyone understands the difference. I also agree that religious revelation is not meant to replace evolutionary religions, but to augment them. Revelation is an upstep, not a sidestep.

Revelatory religon, also known as true religion in the Papers, is meant to live as a part of current religious culture, not apart from it. I interpret this to mean my personal religion, augmented by revelation (epochal and personal), must find a way to integrate into the stream of religious culture we are all living it at this moment. That translates into living now, not in some dreamy future.

Jesus' Spirit of Truth delivered mankind from the custody of priests and other sacred classes of intermediary humans. He meant for true religion to manifest itself within the soul of man and overflow the life of every individual. True religion is invisible; it is spiritual. I think it is fine to organize religionists for the purpose of socialization, but not to organize religion.

True religion is the act of an individual soul in its self-conscious relations with the Creator; organized religion is man's attempt to socialize the worship of individual religionists. 143:7:2

The Papers tell us to get together to do something. I believe that means to socialize with one another. I think it is fine to make organizations that do that. But I don't think it's really possible to organize religion without creating conflict since each religionist has their own religion. And inevitably, these organizations would naturally be made up of like-minded individuals who agree on some level or another concerning their personal religion. In other words, they would have had similar personal religious experiences, which enable them to see eye-to-eye. But to spread such an organization over all religionists, would not really be possible. At least not in this current age.

I believe that the one, single religion we are supposed to attain when our planet reaches light and life is not an organized authoritarian religion as we understand it today. It is rather the invisible brotherhood of man, a recognition of the unity of spirit. True religion is a religion of the spirit, and such a religion must grow. I think one of the ways it grows is through socialization rather than organization.

The religions of authority can only divide men and set them in conscientious array against each other; the religion of the spirit will progressively draw men together and cause them to become understandingly sympathetic with one another. The religions of authority require of men uniformity in belief, but this is impossible of realization in the present state of the world. The religion of the spirit requires only unity of experience — uniformity of destiny — making full allowance for diversity of belief. The religion of the spirit requires only uniformity of insight, not uniformity of viewpoint and outlook. The religion of the spirit does not demand uniformity of intellectual views, only unity of spirit feeling. The religions of authority crystallize into lifeless creeds; the religion of the spirit grows into the increasing joy and liberty of ennobling deeds of loving service and merciful ministration. 155:6:9

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Thank you Brad for setting this thread in the right direction. For me Rex's last post put it in proper perspective. Thank you Rexford.

I look forward to participating in the growth of understanding that will help make this world better. Better for us. Better for everybody.

Albeit I probably won't do more than what I can with my family and friends, and that's good enough.

We have found the pearl of great price, the Urantia Book and it burns a great desire to share it with others.

In Brotherhood,
nodAmanaV


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fanofVan wrote:

I will confess to many years of academic study of logic, philosophy, and competitive debating and a love for good argument. By the way, to be a tournament debater, one must argue equally well and persuasively for both sides of every argument, alternating sides round by round, or no trophies!! It's been a great education and skill throughout my life. The truth rarely is found on either extreme of argument but is most often found hiding in between...a most interesting truth itself. Lies are similarly difficult to discern....the better lie is at least half true but the best lie is all true and yet a lie nonetheless.



What is the point of being a debating champion, when someone has suggested for you which way to argue??? I give a lot of credit to the person who tells you what to argue, because after that you might be able to justify pretty much any course of action!!

Why don't you give NodAdamAmadon some consideration? You have repeatedly emphasized that the cult of believers would needs grow naturally. Well, what if Robert Sarmast's own longing has naturally matriculated into his current course of action? What if this is the next stage in how humans attempt to bring about God's heavenly will on Urantia?


Brother Cooper has known Robert Sarmast for a long time. From his point of view, "Urantia Religion" is not new, but listen Robert has positioned himself to provide a perspective to outsiders about what it is like to be an individual who relies on "the Urantia Book" in the same way other religious cults rely on "Talmud" or "the Bible". He has decided to do so, and you know that his goals are not aggregiously controversial.

Think about some possible consequences of Robert Sarmast's endeavors:
a) He finds a convenient location for fellowship
b) Many person who had not even heard "Urantia" learn that it is the name of our world, and take an interest in the Urantia Papers
c) People who have already heard of the Urantia Book think of Robert Sarmast as "some nut"


I mean, you are talking about "the Urantia Religion". If you are a reader, there are multiple implicit meanings of the phrase, synonymous with Jesus' perspective & ethic. I have decided that Robert Sarmast is an intelligent teacher with motives to do the will of God. He is not someone who will defile the book or commit intentional crimes. It does not seem like a grab at power or attention.

Brother Cooper has shared his opinion justifiedly, but it is one that I do not share.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Thank you Brad for setting this thread in the right direction. For me Rex's last post put it in proper perspective. Thank you Rexford.

I look forward to participating in the growth of understanding that will help make this world better. Better for us. Better for everybody.

Albeit I probably won't do more than what I can with my family and friends, and that's good enough.

We have found the pearl of great price, the Urantia Book and it burns a great desire to share it with others.

In Brotherhood,
nodAmanaV


You're welcome nod!! I appreciate your sincere intentions to utilize the Papers in your philosophy of living and as illumination for your circle/spirit progress....I have found the UB most helpful for both to me over the years. Good on you....the Pearl of Great Price is not the UB but the personal relationship with God within and the family of all creation I think..."the kingdom is like unto"....but this book has been both my guide book to the cosmos and a lamp upon the pilgrim's path.

And yes indeed....when we are motivated to grow our understanding, the better to serve our world of brothers and sisters and our family and friends, we are empowered and energized to be a servant of love and in service to others....a most noble aspiration. Jesus taught that there is no high or low place in the kingdom of love...we are defined by believer or non-believer and by sincere or insincere in our motive. Whether you share the book itself or simply allow its truths to shine in your life, the fruits of the spirit attend and grow. It is a gladsome thing to know God and become a partner in love.

Peace nod....

8)

140:8.28 (1583.2) The right to enter the kingdom is conditioned by faith, personal belief. The cost of remaining in the progressive ascent of the kingdom is the pearl of great price, in order to possess which a man sells all that he has.

“‘The kingdom of heaven is also like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, and in this way it came about that all of the meal was leavened.’

“‘The kingdom of heaven is also like a treasure hidden in a field, which a man discovered. In his joy he went forth to sell all he had that he might have the money to buy the field.’

“‘The kingdom of heaven is also like a merchant seeking goodly pearls; and having found one pearl of great price, he went out and sold everything he possessed that he might be able to buy the extraordinary pearl.’

:wink: :biggrin:


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