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'' coop you quoted quil:
''I'd rather assume the worst and hope for the best, always reminding myself of His mercy.''

This is what I'm trying to say, why not assume the best?

Here's one for ya. Can you live your life, let's say for an hour, without being sinful? What about a minute? A second? If you can do it for an hour, how about a day? Two days uninterrupted? If you do that, you will be doing God's will right?

Where in those two days will you need a credit of mercy?

Is it impossible to live sin free?''

Is it impossible to live sin free?

IMO For a mortal human being its impossible to live a sin free
life , but , But it depends just how you define sin ,
and if i recall correctly sin is but error .

Simply mistakes or bad choices .

Only our Our Creator son Jesus Christ michael
IS Sinless .


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nodAmanaV wrote:
My Brothers,

It's clear, I'm not making my point. So let me put it a different way and then I'm going to a porno bar for lunch.

Since it's all good, lot's of mercy credits, the book says so. Why not smoke my dope, drink my beer, fornicate my women, cheat my friends, etc. Do whatever I know is wrong, it doesn't matter, the mansions will fix it. It's all gonna be fine. I'll be forgiven. No need to worry. We're all friends!

Jesus died for my sins.


Hahahahahahha!!!! Appreciate the humor and reversion therapy!

I am afraid you are doomed nod....not by what you say or do or suggest above however. This is an excellent point for us philosophers to discuss actually and very Old Testament. Remember the Tree of Knowledge and the doom upon the couple for eating its fruit? Quite an awesome (and accurate) lesson, which the OT is riddled with (pun intended :wink: ).

You my friend, and most of us here have eaten the fruit. And while it is not poison, the fruit of knowledge most certainly does profoundly change things. Knowledge....oh dear! What to do with it?!

In my prior response to your similar question, I noted that I must do what I must do because what I have come to believe and know has changed me! Fundamentally and completely changed me. The religious experience of transferring the very seat of my identity to transform myself spiritually compels me to live my philosophy. To say it or even believe it and then do nothing about it, is simply to surrender to self interest, or at least self indulgence....and I know that I will suffer for it. Not by condemnation or damnation, but by the self deprivation of the fruits of the spirit and separation from the Spirits that guide and nurture me, helping me become that which I have chosen to be and yet become. It is a form of self-betrayal - not selfishness. I know my self interest is best served by circle progress.

Now, we may turn our back on such knowledge and succumb to the animal/materialistic nature and not be doomed I think. But the feelings brought forth by such self betrayal would not be easily endured. We cannot hide from what we know to be true any more than we can hide from God.

The rub in what you say is do whatever I "know is wrong". And by extension, one might presume such a statement suggests that you know what's "wrong" and "right" for others simply because you know what's wrong for you. So many subtle inferences to be found in this single example! You are you. I am me. All others are entirely unique persons with completely different experiences, beliefs, knowledge, and characters whose perspective on life has very little to do with your own. The Papers clearly teach that it is not what we do....but why we do what we do that matters. What we choose to do originates in our motive for daily living, by our intentions at every intersection of choice and relationship, by the priorities for living and choosing as we walk by, by the certainty (or complete ignorance) of origin and destiny!!! Not what....but why!

God and religion have suffered much by the failure of religious institutions to foster the religionist's personal relationship with our paternal creator and to know that all souls and all beings in all universes are family! They are fed behavioral codes and creeds of punishment and terror! They do not "know" what you know nod. They suffer and their reality suffers for it. People make choices based on fear and anxiety, or anger and self defense, or material comfort and pleasure. Are those who know nothing else condemned? Hardly. If people KNEW God existed and KNEW of the endless love and the eternal adventure, most would certainly make different choices....because their motive for living would be changed. One must know this to reject this. So, another discussion might be my claim that your sin is not mine and mine is not yours....sin, again, is not an act....it is a betrayal of what we know to be true. Evil is but the errors delivered by our material world and egocentric choices from our material nature....either as we transfer the seat of our identity - or those errors made because we are not transferring our identity at all....this is error only.

The quote you posted: 160:1.5 Animals respond nobly to the urge of life, but only man can attain the art of living, albeit the majority of mankind only experience the animal urge to live. Animals know only this blind and instinctive urge; man is capable of transcending this urge to natural function. Man may elect to live upon the high plane of intelligent art, even that of celestial joy and spiritual ecstasy. Animals make no inquiry into the purposes of life; therefore they never worry, neither do they commit suicide.

I fail to find the condemnation you presuppose here. It is but a fact that many people never do transfer their identity from material to spirit....it is a sad fact but it is not an unforgiveable one, thus the mercy credits and time lag of justice AND the mansion worlds. All are given sufficient time and knowledge to choose their own fate - it cannot come otherwise or before.

Too late for you my brother friend.....for you do know. Me too. But the yoke of the good news is light and the rewards are most tender and sweet. No worries....indeed! I grew up being taught that people would go to hell if I didn't save them - by scaring the hell out of them. The Master certainly did not bring a message of fear and condemnation, no matter how one reads either the red letters in the NT, and especially not by anything within the Urantia Papers. The very notion of fear is antithetical to the teachings.

Thanks nod...and everyone....a most exhilarating and illuminating discussion.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:59 pm +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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Coop said:
Only our Our Creator son Jesus Christ michael 
IS Sinless .


What about if we fuse? Will we still be sinners?


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:28 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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We will still suffer error/evil....certainly. As do the angels. Error is only reduced by experience. Finaliters will still face uncertainties and make mistakes....but not sin - which, still again, is NOT an act - it is a motive for act/choice. We are perfecting beings, perfecting by time + experience to learn the intricacies of cause and effect to make fewer errors by the same choices and become better prepared for those new challenges and decisions to come.

8)


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Then what does this really mean?

Be you perfect as the Father in Heaven is perfect.

Is this not what we are asked to be: perfect?


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Our goal and our ambition and our guiding light throughout all time and space in the eternal quest!!! :idea: :smile:

1:0.3 (21.3) The enlightened worlds all recognize and worship the Universal Father, the eternal maker and infinite upholder of all creation. The will creatures of universe upon universe have embarked upon the long, long Paradise journey, the fascinating struggle of the eternal adventure of attaining God the Father. The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect.” In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.

1:0.4 (22.1) This magnificent and universal injunction to strive for the attainment of the perfection of divinity is the first duty, and should be the highest ambition, of all the struggling creature creation of the God of perfection. This possibility of the attainment of divine perfection is the final and certain destiny of all man’s eternal spiritual progress.

1:0.5 (22.2) Urantia mortals can hardly hope to be perfect in the infinite sense, but it is entirely possible for human beings, starting out as they do on this planet, to attain the supernal and divine goal which the infinite God has set for mortal man; and when they do achieve this destiny, they will, in all that pertains to self-realization and mind attainment, be just as replete in their sphere of divine perfection as God himself is in his sphere of infinity and eternity. Such perfection may not be universal in the material sense, unlimited in intellectual grasp, or final in spiritual experience, but it is final and complete in all finite aspects of divinity of will, perfection of personality motivation, and God-consciousness.

1:0.6 (22.3) This is the true meaning of that divine command, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect,” which ever urges mortal man onward and beckons him inward in that long and fascinating struggle for the attainment of higher and higher levels of spiritual values and true universe meanings. This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.

8)


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Thank you brorther fanovan , Bradly

For sharing your wisdom n helping me to
learn n grow.

NAMASTE BRO 8)


Last edited by coop on Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:05 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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coop - my brother/friend. You have lifted my spirits and added light upon my path for 4 years now, both here and at UBRON. Happy I can return the favor from time to time. I'd storm the gates of hell with you my foxhole buddy....hahaha, if there were such a thing!

Bradly aka fanofVan! 8)


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Another lesson on the "why" as far more important than the "what":

100:4.5 (1098.2) In the mind’s eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times — a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them.

Maturity demands the realization that it is the motive behind the choice that is the imperative....not the act. Sin is not an act. It is a motive to act and choose. The acts take care of themselves when based on right motive. The Master taught this truth over and over again. To the horror of his apostles and family often enough....to the very cause of his murder/execution for violations of act contrary to the rules of acting. Got to get past this one to make much progress here. Evil is but an error in motive or strategy or tactic - we learn better by such error, sin is intentional and not a mistake in judgment/choice but is, rather, deliberate.


8)


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Greetings nod,

nodAmanaV wrote:
I never got the impression that Jesus went around telling people "don't worry, it'll all be ok". Quite the contrary. He was constantly inferring that if you don't get with the program, no dice.


A lot of Jesus' harsh words were for the Sadducees and Pharisees, the hypocritical followers of evolutionary religion. To his own followers he actually preached against worry, see quote below:

What he preached against was not forethought but anxiety, worry. He taught the active and alert submission to God's will.140:8:3

nodAmanaV wrote:
The nature parables he uttered always warned against the likelihood that few are bound to perceive the truth.

* The prodigal son - it's rare for humans to admit they're wrong and reverse themselves.

* The sown seed - relatively few (in nature) take root to maturity.

* Feeding the five thousand - after all was said and done, when he climbed down from the large stone, few kept with him.


It's a whole other topic, but the parable of the prodigal son is not about the rarity of admitting you're wrong. It's about God, a Father, who rejoices when a lost soul is found. The parable of the sower is about Jesus' own ministry, and feeding the five thousand isn't a parable at all.

nodAmanaV wrote:
(157:4.1) But hardly would such hopes spring up in their hearts than the Master would dash them to pieces by some crushing word or disappointing deed

(145:4.3) No sooner would the Master do something to cheer the souls and gladden the hearts of his apostles, than he seemed immediately to dash their hopes in pieces and utterly to demolish the foundations of their courage and enthusiasm

Why all this pointing to the seriousness of the business he was teaching us we ought to be about?


Jesus dashed the apostles' hopes in order to make them disappointment-proof. It was part of their training and discipline in learning how to recognize the difference between good and evil, right and wrong (see quote below). The only one who failed his training was Judas. He loved to wallow in disappointment.

The Master well knew that many of his followers were slowly but surely preparing their minds finally to reject him. He likewise knew that many of his disciples were slowly but certainly passing through that training of mind and that discipline of soul which would enable them to triumph over doubt and courageously to assert their full-fledged faith in the gospel of the kingdom. Jesus fully understood how men prepare themselves for the decisions of a crisis and the performance of sudden deeds of courageous choosing by the slow process of the reiterated choosing between the recurring situations of good and evil. He subjected his chosen messengers to repeated rehearsals in disappointment and provided them with frequent and testing opportunities for choosing between the right and the wrong way of meeting spiritual trials. He knew he could depend on his followers, when they met the final test, to make their vital decisions in accordance with prior and habitual mental attitudes and spirit reactions. 153:1:3

All of us who want to climb the psychic circles have to go through repeated disappointments in order to learn how to choose God's way. It's part of the program. Jesus says that it's tough to do, but the rewards are so great that you don't really mind. And that's the way it is in the kingdom. Once you're in it, you have to progress, and if you don't, God cuts around your roots to encourage growth until you either go his way or dig your own hole and crawl in it. All he wants from us is continued growth, because if we don't grow we die.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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89:10.2 (984.5) Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

89:10.3 (984.6) The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

89:10.4 (984.7) The possibility of the recognition of the sense of guilt is a badge of transcendent distinction for mankind. It does not mark man as mean but rather sets him apart as a creature of potential greatness and ever-ascending glory. Such a sense of unworthiness is the initial stimulus that should lead quickly and surely to those faith conquests which translate the mortal mind to the superb levels of moral nobility, cosmic insight, and spiritual living; thus are all the meanings of human existence changed from the temporal to the eternal, and all values are elevated from the human to the divine.

89:10.5 (984.8) The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession — sincere recognition of the nature of sin — is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

89:10.6 (985.1) The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent.


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Greetings nod,

I forgot to respond to this:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Mercy is provided when things go wrong.

When things go right, mercy isn't necessary.


I can't agree with that. In my life the only reason things go right is because of God's mercy. I beg God for mercy every conscious moment of every day. It's my subliminal prayer. What good would my life be without God's mercy? Mercy is God's love in action. Personally, I wouldn't want to live a life without God's love in action, or mercy, with me all of the time.

God is love, the Son is mercy. Mercy is applied love, the Father's love in action in the person of his Eternal Son. The love of this universal Son is likewise universal. As love is comprehended on a sex planet, the love of God is more comparable to the love of a father, while the love of the Eternal Son is more like the affection of a mother. Crude, indeed, are such illustrations, but I employ them in the hope of conveying to the human mind the thought that there is a difference, not in divine content but in quality and technique of expression, between the love of the Father and the love of the Son. 6:3:5

Rex


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AMEN 8)


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Sorry nod, I didn't even read this. Must have missed it.

nodAmanaV wrote:
It's clear, I'm not making my point. So let me put it a different way and then I'm going to a porno bar for lunch. Since it's all good, lot's of mercy credits, the book says so. Why not smoke my dope, drink my beer, fornicate my women, cheat my friends, etc. Do whatever I know is wrong, it doesn't matter, the mansions will fix it. It's all gonna be fine. I'll be forgiven. No need to worry. We're all friends! Jesus died for my sins.


Watching porn is not always a sin. Smoking dope and drinking beer is not always a sin. Fornicating is not always a sin. However, knowingly cheating your friends is a sin, and if you do that without conscience, you are on a slippery slope. It means that your personality trust is fading. There is nothing more destructive to personality as betrayal of trust to one's friends (see quote below). Such behavior is immoral and wrong and it is not okay to blow it off. It will cost you many, many mercy credits.

And of all forms of evil, none are more destructive of personality status than betrayal of trust and disloyalty to one's confiding friends. 67:1:3

nodAmanaV wrote:
Here's one for ya. Can you live your life, let's say for an hour, without being sinful? What about a minute? A second? If you can do it for an hour, how about a day? Two days uninterrupted? If you do that, you will be doing God's will right? Where in those two days will you need a credit of mercy? Is it impossible to live sin free?


Of course it is possible to live sin-free. Do any of us do it? I would say some, possibly many. To sin you have to know that what you're doing is a sin and do it anyway. And by sin, I don't mean what the Church says is a sin, like sex, booze and women. By sin I mean going against God's will. If you're not conscious of something being against God's will, if you're even unsure, it doesn't count as sin. You have to know that what you're doing is immoral, unjust, dishonest, unethical, vengeful, selfish or hateful and still do it just because you want to. Jesus' definition of sin is below:

Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed. 148:4:4

And as I said before, to live without sin all of us need mercy to accomplish it. We are imperfect beings and by God's mercy we are learning about perfection, which means growing a soul and attempting to realize increasing levels of divinity of our personalities.

I see you asked two more questions: Can we still sin after we fuse? What does it mean to be perfect like God is perfect? Two really great questions. I have some answers, but it would require essay writing. Are you really interested in answers?

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Thanks to my friends and brothers. I'm pushing hard today. I hope I haven't overstepped, but if I can't do it with you, then who?

I am trying to move the ball forward, that's all. I never felt comfortable with the "born sinner and always a sinner" bit. I know what's right and wrong. I also know why I justify not doing right, although at my age, I know a lot better to steer clear of that nonsense.

I understand that without repentance for wrong doing, and the request for God's mercy, attempting to "be perfect" in my very finite and mortal realm is futile. If there is such a thing as "being perfect" as a mortal being, it can't be accomplished without God's love and tender guidance. Amen

The main point I've been trying to articulate is this, contrary to what is by far the normal way of looking at things, that being human is fraught with tendencies to be sinful or evil, I look at Jesus and see him beckoning us on, on towards personal Light and Life, NOW not later. I am convinced he wants us to raise the bar, live according to the way he showed us, and thereby tell the Great Deceivers they failed. Prove that the truth, beauty and goodness of God has prevailed on little old Urantia.

Thank you all again. I learn a lot from all of you.


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