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The Mansion Worlds are part of the doorway....not yet the kingdom of believers.

8)


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Ever ponder the sizes of the mansion worlds?

There are 1,000 mortal worlds in a system. How many mansions worlds, 49 right?

Big enough for everyone?

"of those who seek salvation, few can find entrance through this door."

From our perspective, it's a blink of an eye. From God's, it's long enough. Too long maybe for some?

112:5.9 This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all.


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:18 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I think we're mixing up a few issues here. Speculating on whether some do or do not make it here isn't the same as sitting in judgement of a specific person. We are obviously not equipped to do that. We do not know other people's hearts and do not have that capability. At the same time, we are told of many cases where mortals do not survive.

One thing that's always struck me is time and again, in a given Paper when the topic of survival comes up, the revelators are almost always making it conditional-- IF you survive, not when. In some ways this always bothered me, because inside I was saying "surely I will survive and so will most others?!"

But upon reflection, if it didn't matter much how far in spiritual progress you've made in life, then why did Jesus bother to come at all? Why did he speak of salvation with such immediacy and urgency? Why was turning mortals towards the Love of God his number one priority? Why so many warnings about NOT entering the kingdom? He made plenty of references to nonbelievers. He even gave us a parable about sowing wheat. But I want to point out, that parable he gave us was in THIS life. If it's pretty much a given we all go on, then why even warn us while we're here? It stands to reason that it MUST be possible for any individual to not go on!

I used to believe that pretty much everyone here gets a second chance, given the state of this world. And I do believe that anyone with the faintest flicker of hope in the goodness of the universe does.

What I don't think anymore is that we are totally ignorant of this choice and essentially get a free pass in this life. I think just as you can ascend into the kingdom, you can also descend into darkness. Both imply more awareness of The Choice. I'm not talking about those who don't think there is a God or who aren't sure. I'm talking about those who, in their hearts, know there is a Creator and actively reject his plan.

As far as this being "most" people or "some" people-- whether it's normal or rare, I dare not say. But based on everything on the text, it's pretty clear to me that it is very possible to make this choice for soul death while in the flesh just as it is possible in the next worlds. Those places are reserved for those who in some measure want to progress, even if they have to kick and scream the whole way.

We must accept that there are those here who have no desire for life at all beyond this existence.


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It's been a while Brad, but we are in full agreement.

I dare say, with all my lofty ideas of my own spiritual status, it may not be good enough. I may not find entrance to the narrow door because I have wasted too much time judging about it and what it looks like, and what it is.

Nature I think provides us with examples, if not shadows of reality. Consider sea turtles, when they hatch most are plucked by birds. Of those who enter the sea, most are eaten by predators. However, enough survive. God does not judge, we do.


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To followup up on the conditional-- the revelators saying if you survive.

I know I had, and I bet many other readers had this reaction: "What do you mean if I survive? I'm reading The Urantia Book!! How could I not survive?"

Obviously, to the revelators, reading the book is no guarantee. Ponder that they're saying if to a portion of the world that is very tiny (a million readers, maybe? half a million devout readers?) They're already counting on losses even in the readership. Even if it's a small percentage, stretch that proportion out to the entire world's population, and that's a lot of soul death on this planet.

I don't like it anymore than anyone else here does. And I wish it were not the case. I want everyone to survive. But we are told not to presume in God's grace.

Doesn't mean we should treat anyone differently. Nor should we obsess over our personal salvation (which would be selfish). Nor can we determine if any other specific person is 'saved'. Nevertheless, for one reason or another, those in authority and with the power deem it necessary that we must be aware of this fact.


Last edited by quil on Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:34 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Should I zig, or should I zag.

What does this exactly mean, "in the face of the rejection of a first"?


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166:3.4 “But herein is the danger to all who would postpone their entrance into the kingdom while they continue to pursue the pleasures of immaturity and indulge the satisfactions of selfishness: Having refused to enter the kingdom as a spiritual experience, they may subsequently seek entrance thereto when the glory of the better way becomes revealed in the age to come. And when, therefore, those who spurned the kingdom when I came in the likeness of humanity seek to find an entrance when it is revealed in the likeness of divinity, then will I say to all such selfish ones: I know not whence you are. You had your chance to prepare for this heavenly citizenship, but you refused all such proffers of mercy; you rejected all invitations to come while the door was open. Now, to you who have refused salvation, the door is shut. This door is not open to those who would enter the kingdom for selfish glory. Salvation is not for those who are unwilling to pay the price of wholehearted dedication to doing my Father's will. When in spirit and soul you have turned your backs upon the Father's kingdom, it is useless in mind and body to stand before this door and knock, saying, `Lord, open to us; we would also be great in the kingdom.' Then will I declare that you are not of my fold. I will not receive you to be among those who have fought the good fight of faith and won the reward of unselfish service in the kingdom on earth. And when you say, `Did we not eat and drink with you, and did you not teach in our streets?' then shall I again declare that you are spiritual strangers; that we were not fellow servants in the Father's ministry of mercy on earth; that I do not know you; and then shall the Judge of all the earth say to you: `Depart from us, all you who have taken delight in the works of iniquity.'

166:3.5 “But fear not; every one who sincerely desires to find eternal life by entrance into the kingdom of God shall certainly find such everlasting salvation. But you who refuse this salvation will some day see the prophets of the seed of Abraham sit down with the believers of the gentile nations in this glorified kingdom to partake of the bread of life and to refresh themselves with the water thereof. And they who shall thus take the kingdom in spiritual power and by the persistent assaults of living faith will come from the north and the south and from the east and the west. And, behold, many who are first will be last, and those who are last will many times be first.”


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Thanks nod...and quill.

I am reminded that we are not given name or recognition as achieving the "kingdom" until fusion occurs. The wheat is self-proving as nod says above...but the wheat is not considered such until fusion is achieved for us ascending mortals.

I am in the kingdom by my choice and will, but only as tadpole and potential for a long season of time still to come.

8)


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Greetings All,

Yes indeed! It is possible to reject the ascension career and allow your soul to die while still alive in the flesh. The Papers explain what happens to these people after their bodies do die. They sleep until a dispensational roll call when judgments are made concerning survivability. If the Adjuster does not show up at the roll call, then the individual ceases to exist because he or she lacks identity in the universe without the Adjuster or some other immortal spirit as part of the resurrection of personality. And all this takes place on the mansion worlds. When a non-survivable, soul-dead personality dies, he or she sleeps with all the other individuals awaiting a dispensational resurrection. The decision for extermination waits until then.(See both quotes below).

The technique of justice demands that personal or group guardians shall respond to the dispensational roll call in behalf of all nonsurviving personalities. The Adjusters of such nonsurvivors do not return, and when the rolls are called, the seraphim respond, but the Adjusters make no answer. This constitutes the "resurrection of the unjust," in reality the formal recognition of the cessation of creature existence. This roll call of justice always immediately follows the roll call of mercy, the resurrection of the sleeping survivors. But these are matters which are of concern to none but the supreme and all-knowing Judges of survival values. Such problems of adjudication do not really concern us. 113:6:8

Thus are the sleeping survivors of a planetary age repersonalized in the dispensational roll calls. But with regard to the nonsalvable personalities of a realm, no immortal spirit is present to function with the group guardians of destiny, and this constitutes cessation of creature existence. While some of your records have pictured these events as taking place on the planets of mortal death, they all really occur on the mansion worlds. 49:6:7


To understand soul death, I think you have to understand what the soul is and how it stays alive. Once it is created, it grows in and of itself, as long as its source of sustenance is not consciously, and knowingly, cut off or obstructed by the free will of the personality. I think Jesus called it, being connected to the vine, which is nothing more than the desire for God's will, however faint it might be. I do believe that some people are looking for God, but do not actually know it. They are looking for an "it" or a "power" rather than a person, and that constitutes a flicker, in some cases. At least that's my opinion.

Don't forget that the soul is born when the spirits of worship and wisdom make contact and the personality responds by choosing an unselfish act. Then there's no turning back unless no more unselfish acts are chosen and instead the individual changes heart and knowingly commits him or herself to total selfishness, in defiance of the urge to do otherwise. And that is because that urge comes from the Adjuster, through the soul to the mortal mind. Such an urge has to be constantly ignored and consciously despised and denied. There are people like that around. People who know better but willfully refuse to follow their moral urgings are killing their souls, sure as shootin'. It's called iniquity and iniquity destroys the soul. The soul can only survive if it is constantly changing and growing.

The personal (centripetal) consequences of the creature's willful and persistent rejection of light are both inevitable and individual and are of concern only to Deity and to that personal creature. Such a soul-destroying harvest of iniquity is the inner reaping of the iniquitous will creature. 67:7.1
13. Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change (growth) ceased, the soul would cease. 112:0:15


In Friendship,
Rexford


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quil wrote:
Obviously, to the revelators, reading the book is no guarantee. Ponder that they're saying if to a portion of the world that is very tiny (a million readers, maybe? half a million devout readers?) They're already counting on losses even in the readership. Even if it's a small percentage, stretch that proportion out to the entire world's population, and that's a lot of soul death on this planet.


We already know we think alike, you and me quil, but I wanted to highlight what you have said here. I have thought about it this way too. Even amongst readers of the Urantia Book, it's likely not all will survive, if I dare judge. Just go over there to Ron Besser's (serara) place to see how this is in action. :shock:


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Aside from the extreme example of psychopaths (those who were likely spiritually unreal before they were ever born), it's tough for me to comment what all this looks like in others. All I know is that the stakes are raised for me, personally. Every new level of awareness of spiritual realities also sheds light on the path forward and tests my willingness to keep going. School never lets out. I am beginning to understand what they mean by calling this life "short and intense."

As I gain each insight into my spiritual nature, I am shown more layers of selfishness that must be uprooted and discarded. I think it useless to have anxiety over the fate of my soul, particularly whether or not I get to immediately proceed on the third day (and I suspect I will not, but does that really matter? My perception will be the same either way: I die then I wake up, hopefully).

But at the same time, it seems like very dangerous territory to simply take it as a given that I will go on. Not in my current state, at least. The warnings of spiritual pride and spiritual stagnation come to mind. I know these maladies very well. I am spiritually sick and I must continue to seek to heal. As I go through this process, I do become more aware of others who are also sick. I guess if I could sum it up, this stuff requires persistent work. I don't think I can just hit a plane of spiritual satisfaction and continue on cruise control to the mansion worlds. Every single day I must work. Some days are great. Some are bad. Most are in between. Every now and then I have some reassurance from Our Father. And every now and then I am just utterly disgusted with myself. Growth is definitely a process. But progress ultimately boils down to decisions, and every day we are at risk of deciding to go off His Path and try to take over the show.

The Good News is that when we do consecrate our will to his, then the fruits spring forth. And there is pleasure, joy, and real happiness. There is also liberation. Everything that Jesus told us about. I've rambled, I know, sorry for getting off topic. I just used to think that this was something that you achieve like a certificate and then you move on to the phase, and what I realize now is that the work you did prior doesn't go away, it just transforms into more work. And it's our attitude toward this work that really matters.

And that in the spiritual kingdom, I'm closer to the end of the line. I am among those in the category "the first will be last."


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Greetings fanofVan,

fanofVan wrote:
The Mansion Worlds are part of the doorway....not yet the kingdom of believers.


You've mentioned the kingdom of believers before, but I don't think I understand what it is. I put the phrase into the search engine and only one quote came up, see below:

The kingdoms of this world, being material, may often find it necessary to employ physical force in the execution of their laws and for the maintenance of order. In the kingdom of heaven true believers will not resort to the employment of physical force. The kingdom of heaven, being a spiritual brotherhood of the spirit-born sons of God, may be promulgated only by the power of the spirit. This distinction of procedure refers to the relations of the kingdom of believers to the kingdoms of secular government and does not nullify the right of social groups of believers to maintain order in their ranks and administer discipline upon unruly and unworthy members. 178:1:2

It looks to me like they're talking about social groups on Earth. So I'm confused what you mean by the kingdom of believers being something beyond the mansion worlds. Could you explain what you mean?

Thanks in Advance,
Rexford


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Hello Rexford....actually, the "kingdom" concept is inferior to the better analogy of the "family" and "paternal" examples but the Master used the kingdom as an illustration in several ways; indeed, 5 different and specific ways. A key word search for "kingdom of heaven" will give far more results to study than kingdom of believers (which is incorporated in the former as well). A re-read of Paper 170 is recommended. As a lad with red-letter KJV, I discovered the Gospel of Jesus and was thrilled to find those verses and parables where the Master stated, "The kingdom of heaven is like unto...."; and how He presented the kingdom as here and now, not later and somewhere else. He challenged the mind to see the family of all and all of creation as accessible right now, where I am, wherever I may be....to quit waiting for something or sometime and that death is a transition but the doorway is open now, no death required to enter and join in the family fun!!

My personal philosophy of living has been profoundly changed by that seed and the tree which bloomed when I discovered the facts of universe reality revealed in the Papers. While I am in the kingdom and family, by my free will choice and sincere desire, the fact is the UB teaches that I am a probationary tadpole as mortal until such time I fuse with the Father fragment which seals the eternal adventure....but until then, I may be assured of that eventuation of potential by simple faith, loyalty, and sincerity. The mansion worlds are considered probationary, catch-up educational spheres for those with little knowledge of or experience in the spirit...frog school for tadpoles!!! Survival to the mansions is proof only of a flicker of potential that still resides within and not any measure of true spiritization. Circle progress is its own measurement and completely different from survival of soul.

We are also taught that as a System becomes settled in Light and Life that fewer and fewer mortal ascenders utilize these probationary spheres as on world of birth translation and fusion reduces the very need for this "doorway" or stairway to heaven. A few centuries on a L&L planet are normally sufficient for most of the population to utilize the sea of glass and seraphic transport to the morontia worlds to come.

I think some in this discussion do not appreciate the purpose of time and the mansion worlds to allow sufficient knowledge and truth to transform those in need of more education or significant rehabilitation. Nor do I think that some here give adequate consideration for the situations and circumstances, considered by Father and the mercy credits, for those who grow up and live on worlds without example or knowledge to be rejected....it requires a knowing and understanding and final and complete rejection of reality and love and mercy for the mercy credits to be exhausted. I would not even offer a name, no matter how notorious, of any person in history that is denied the extension of time and mercy and rehabilitation by the love, generosity, fairness, and mercy of our Father. I posted above that time itself is required evidence in all such considerations.

Some seem quite disappointed in others and have self defined the limits of mercy ministry for them based on some personal criteria that I have not found in the Papers. Do we know why anyone is who they are or the journey taken or the suffering suffered and the pain and anguish and betrayals along their path? Did they know their father or mother and what example of paternal love and love of others was provided them? I would not dare to reject anyone's chance to see better, to know better, to understand more, and be given the time to choose truth, beauty, and goodness for themselves....in time to come.

Certainly it is true that mere survival onto a probationary world is no proof of circle progress or eternal standing. And the Christian heritage would say that only those who are worthy of instant perfection pass safely on - but this is a falsehood of gargantuan proportion. The issue is complex to be sure. Especially when we consider the many shades represented by soul birth, born in the spirit, reborn in the spirit, soul growth and circle progress, etc., etc. I have much to learn still on all these issues and more.



4. Jesus’ Teaching About the Kingdom

170:4.1 (1862.9) Jesus never gave a precise definition of the kingdom. At one time he would discourse on one phase of the kingdom, and at another time he would discuss a different aspect of the brotherhood of God’s reign in the hearts of men. In the course of this Sabbath afternoon’s sermon Jesus noted no less than five phases, or epochs, of the kingdom, and they were:

170:4.2 (1862.10) 1. The personal and inward experience of the spiritual life of the fellowship of the individual believer with God the Father.

170:4.3 (1863.1) 2. The enlarging brotherhood of gospel believers, the social aspects of the enhanced morals and quickened ethics resulting from the reign of God’s spirit in the hearts of individual believers.

170:4.4 (1863.2) 3. The supermortal brotherhood of invisible spiritual beings which prevails on earth and in heaven, the superhuman kingdom of God.

170:4.5 (1863.3) 4. The prospect of the more perfect fulfillment of the will of God, the advance toward the dawn of a new social order in connection with improved spiritual living — the next age of man.

170:4.6 (1863.4) 5. The kingdom in its fullness, the future spiritual age of light and life on earth.

170:4.7 (1863.5) Wherefore must we always examine the Master’s teaching to ascertain which of these five phases he may have reference to when he makes use of the term kingdom of heaven. By this process of gradually changing man’s will and thus affecting human decisions, Michael and his associates are likewise gradually but certainly changing the entire course of human evolution, social and otherwise.

8) Bradly


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Bradly,

Just so I'm clear on your understanding (and for this purpose only do I ask): you think everyone makes it the first mansion world?


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Hello quil...no, that's not what I think. But I do not know how the despicable got that way nor if they are truly and consciously iniquitous or not. It takes the full embrace of sin I think to not survive this brief life and I've met few that I believe may so disqualify themselves for the trip....and I've met many, many people....so anecdotally only, I think the survival rate is quite high. Many embrace materialisms and fear based lives and are self centered and may be even stupid and brutish...this is all true. But many of them even know love and loyalty and compassion. Is that the flicker? I cannot say.

I do think it imperative to find the light within and seek its source and center and respond earnestly to the whisper. I do not live to survive....I live to penetrate the circles and seek enlightening and embracing the true, beautiful, and good. I think we move toward God or away from Father by every choice in every day and I would not impose upon my mercy credits willingly and knowingly myself as to do so would be disloyal and insincere....based on what I believe and know. Love is the way. Prayer and communion with God is the way. I know this. Others do not or not so much.

So, before I am accused again (never by you quil), let me be clear....such confidence in the mercy ministry and credits bestowed, I know I am to act to gain wisdom and insight and gain circle progress and I am obligated, by choice, to act in service to this world of birth and the Supreme and all fellow beings in the family of creation. I am not blasé or cavalier in my confidence in God's love and mercy or my personal standing as believer. Tadpoles go through many phases to become frog...why wait? We must transfer the seat of identity....here and there or there if not here or not completed here...fusion with Father within is the task at hand for all who hear the whisper and see the light. Such a life is a pleasure and happiness is the reward...to do right for right's sake is what makes right, both within and without.

May those poor souls who do not know this come to for their own sake. I will not judge such a life on such a world for others but I am constantly amazed by how many show so much love for so many others in their own way...the world is filled with kindness and self forgetting service....or the world I see is. There is far more light than shadow even on this world darkened by fear and ignorance. And I think the Son's Spirit has been miraculously effective at lighting the wick and feeding the flicker within all...to some degree or to a great degree indeed. I toil for the goodness in the garden of life and I see lots of fellow workers and much fruit upon this vine.

So, I offer no estimate or percentage, but I do think it higher rather than lower based on my experience in this world and based on the Papers which take much time to teach of God's love and mercy for all children born on the material worlds. I cannot know but I am confident in love and its patience and persistence over time to give shelter from the storms of materialism upon the shores of Mansonia.

8)


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