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The Hubble Deep Field (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Deep_Field) is an impressive display of the size and magnitude of outer space. Comprising only a microscopic angle of the visible sky, the series of images contains almost 3,000 galaxies.

Image

What is the Hubble pointing at here? Other galaxies within Nebadon? Galaxies outside of Nebadon? Another part of our own superuniverse? Another superuniverse altogether? What are we seeing in this phenomenal composite of images? Thanks!


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What are we seeing in this phenomenal composite of images?

"The universes of outer space, where we already are able to identify the clustering of at least seventy thousand aggregations of matter, each of which is greater than any one of the present superuniverses." 31:10.19


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How do we know this is a universe(s) of outer space and not another of the seven superuniverses?


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Personally I can only know one thing for certain, that God is more vast, more great, than I will ever imagine in time. When I think about what this Hubble image represents, I see love. I see the love of God which then leads me to look at Jesus, and see how great this love of God is for me, and for all of us.
Hallelujah!


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There are at least 2 UB references I can think of immediately that may be useful in this discussion:

15:10.23 (179.10) The superuniverses do not maintain any sort of ambassadorial representation; they are completely isolated from each other. They know of mutual affairs only through the Paradise clearinghouse maintained by the Seven Master Spirits. Their rulers work in the councils of divine wisdom for the welfare of their own superuniverses regardless of what may be transpiring in other sections of the universal creation. This isolation of the superuniverses will persist until such time as their co-ordination is achieved by the more complete factualization of the personality-sovereignty of the evolving experiential Supreme Being.

I'm sure this means that they cannot be in contact via broadcast or other means; but it *may* also indicate that they are situated in space such that we also cannot catch a glimpse of other superuniverse planets or galaxies. So I am thinking it is all our own local universe and/or perhaps minor and major sectors that we see in that composite image.

15:3.4 (167.20) Of the ten major divisions of Orvonton, eight have been roughly identified by Urantian astronomers. The other two are difficult of separate recognition because you are obliged to view these phenomena from the inside. If you could look upon the superuniverse of Orvonton from a position far-distant in space, you would immediately recognize the ten major sectors of the seventh galaxy.


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Greetings,

Am I having a Groundhog Day moment? Didn't we just discuss this very thing? The same picture even? Or, am I more senile than I think?

Rex


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Indeed. In October. See this post specifically viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5210&hilit=hubble#p64905


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Redtread,

As you review the other topic, the best I can say is you will have to draw your own conclusions. Personally, when I look at that image, I see the galaxies of the outer space levels, all of which are (as yet) uninhabited. God has created an unimaginably vast universe. The epoch we belong to is still just the first chapter of His story of the universes of time and space. It is a lesson in patience for me.


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Redtread wrote:
What is the Hubble pointing at here? Other galaxies within Nebadon? Galaxies outside of Nebadon? Another part of our own superuniverse? Another superuniverse altogether? What are we seeing in this phenomenal composite of images? Thanks!

These would all be outside the local universe of Nebadon, which is only a small patch (1:100,000) of the superuniverse level. They'd be far outside even the superuniverse level. These would be in what the book calls the "outer space levels".

Here are a few quotes to help with the scale of things...

"Practically all of the starry realms visible to the naked eye on Urantia belong to the seventh section of the grand universe, the superuniverse of Orvonton." 15:3.1

Almost everything you can look up and see in the night sky with the naked eye is in the superuniverse. Conversely, that also means, with the naked eye, you are able to see some objects that are outside the superuniverse of Orvonton. The most distant objects you can see with the naked eye are the relatively nearby galaxies of Andromeda, and, under most ideal conditions with exceptional eyesight, the galaxy Triangulum. I'm not sure there is anything further than that you can see. On the cosmic scale these are immediate next door neighbors. Yet, even these very close neighbors are already outside the superuniverse. The Hubble deep field image shows way way way distant galaxies at the edge of perception of technology, those galaxies are definitely outside the grand universe.

"From the outermost system of inhabited worlds to the center of the superuniverse is a trifle less than two hundred and fifty thousand light-years." 32:2.11

This and some other statements put superuniverses more at the scale of individual galaxies rather than anything much bigger.

"But in the master universe there are as many suns as there are glasses of water in the oceans of your world." 15:6.10

The same paragraph in the book is also where there's the statement "The superuniverse of Orvonton is illuminated and warmed by more than ten trillion blazing suns." In the other thread, Kelfuma was struggling with the idea of the superuniverses being so puny in the cosmic scale of things. He or she was right! They're pretty tiny compared to what the Hubble deep field shows as the true scale of the observable universe. However, that statement about there being "as many suns as there are glasses of water in the oceans" also lets us approach the question from that angle.

How many cups of water are there in the oceans?

With WolframAlpha you can pose the question:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=vo ... ns+in+cups

The result from their sourcing is 5.63 * 10^21 cups, which is:

5,630,000,000,000,000,000,000

Ok, what's the estimate of how many stars there are in the univers? Trying that also with WolframAlpha:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nu ... e+universe

The result is actually not especially far off, 3 * 10^23 which is a difference by a factor of about 50.

The Urantia Book really does teach that there is an absolutely unfathomably enormous master universe, very similar in scale to what modern astronomy shows, and that the inhabited portion of it is tiny in comparison.


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My understanding of the UB contradicts Quil and Tas' suggestion that the Hubble telescope image is showing the outer space levels. See the paragraph below.

12:1.14 (129.12) The Outer Space Levels. Far out in space, at an enormous distance from the seven inhabited superuniverses, there are assembling vast and unbelievably stupendous circuits of force and materializing energies. Between the energy circuits of the seven superuniverses and this gigantic outer belt of force activity, there is a space zone of comparative quiet, which varies in width but averages about four hundred thousand light-years. These space zones are free from star dust — cosmic fog. Our students of these phenomena are in doubt as to the exact status of the space-forces existing in this zone of relative quiet which encircles the seven superuniverses. But about one-half million light-years beyond the periphery of the present grand universe we observe the beginnings of a zone of an unbelievable energy action which increases in volume and intensity for over twenty-five million light-years. These tremendous wheels of energizing forces are situated in the first outer space level, a continuous belt of cosmic activity encircling the whole of the known, organized, and inhabited creation.

The grand universe is so vast that we are still only seeing sectors of Orvonton when we look at the Hubble image.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
The grand universe is so vast that we are still only seeing sectors of Orvonton when we look at the Hubble image.

The Hubble image really is a mind bender.

The patch of sky that was picked to observe was intentionally picked since astronomers wanted to see only very far distant objects. This is why it's called the "Deep Field" -- it's looking way far into the depths of space by design, without the view having anything close to us. The closest galaxy in the picture is about 1 billion light years away and the farthest is over 10 billion ly away. The scale of superuniverses is only a few hundreds of thousands of light years in comparison. For the distances involve, the picture really is of galaxies "an enormous distance from the seven inhabited superuniverses".

Also, just going from the UB's statement that a superuniverse is 10 trillion stars, this picture wouldn't be showing the superuniverse level since this one picture of a very tiny bit of the sky is already showing galaxies that add up to a lot more stars than that. The size of sky you're looking it is very small, it's like a grain of sand held up at arm's length. Yet zoomed in and stared at by the Hubble Telescope for 10 full days there ended up being 3,000 distant galaxies to emerge and become visible from the dim depths of far outer space. There's no reason to think this tiny piece of the sky is unique, so how many thousands or millions of grains of sand held at arm length would you need to cover up the sky? Take each of those grains of sand as representing 3,000 galaxies, and you get into the estimates that in the depths of outer space there are hundreds of billions of galaxies.

You also arrive at the estimate that in the "universe there are as many suns as there are glasses of water in the oceans of your world." This wasn't known at the time the UB was published as far as I know, this is only known by science relatively recently.


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Hello,

It has been a while since I last posted here, but this discussion has tapped my interest. Thank you for your participation in the forum.

I would like to add these links to the discussion, as they may be helpful and/or confusing to read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Deep_Field

http://www.sciteclibrary.ru/texsts/eng/ ... 303eng.pdf

http://www.squarecircles.com/articles/twoorvontons.htm

Also, in regards to previous posts, perhaps each one of these seventy thousand aggregations of matter may contain hundreds, thousands, or even more galaxies and star clusters.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5210&hilit=hubble&start=15

As we view this triune development, embracing creatures, universes, and Deity, can we be criticized for anticipating that something new and unrevealed is approaching culmination in the master universe? Is it not natural that we should associate this agelong mobilization and organization of physical universes on such a hitherto unknown scale and the personality emergence of the Supreme Being with this stupendous scheme of upstepping the mortals of time to divine perfection and with their subsequent mobilization on Paradise in the Corps of the Finality — a designation and destiny enshrouded in universe mystery? It is increasingly the belief of all Uversa that the assembling Corps of the Finality are destined to some future service in the universes of outer space, where we already are able to identify the clustering of at least seventy thousand aggregations of matter, each of which is greater than any one of the present super universes. 31:10:19


Jim :smile:


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