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 Post subject: The Right to Privacy
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If there's anything I've taken away from my studies of the Urantia Book it is this: As human beings, there is no such thing as privacy! Ever. Not only are we being observed 24/7 by our celestial mentors, they are also monitoring each and every one of our thoughts. And I like that. Without this understanding, I would be much farther behind in my personal spiritual development. Why? Because the notion that I'm constantly being observed eventually made it impossible for me to keep doing what I know is wrong. Especially those nasty little "secretive" things most human beings do sometimes. I know you know what I'm talking about.

There may be a "right" to privacy, but in reality no such thing exists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -accounts/


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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151:3.1 The apostles were parable-minded, so much so that the whole of the next evening was devoted to the further discussion of parables. Jesus introduced the evening's conference by saying: “My beloved, you must always make a difference in teaching so as to suit your presentation of truth to the minds and hearts before you. When you stand before a multitude of varying intellects and temperaments, you cannot speak different words for each class of hearers, but you can tell a story to convey your teaching; and each group, even each individual, will be able to make his own interpretation of your parable in accordance with his own intellectual and spiritual endowments. You are to let your light shine but do so with wisdom and discretion. No man, when he lights a lamp, covers it up with a vessel or puts it under the bed; he puts his lamp on a stand where all can behold the light. Let me tell you that nothing is hid in the kingdom of heaven which shall not be made manifest; neither are there any secrets which shall not ultimately be made known. Eventually, all these things shall come to light. Think not only of the multitudes and how they hear the truth; take heed also to yourselves how you hear. Remember that I have many times told you: To him who has shall be given more, while from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he thinks he has.”


70:9.1 Nature confers no rights on man, only life and a world in which to live it. Nature does not even confer the right to live, as might be deduced by considering what would likely happen if an unarmed man met a hungry tiger face to face in the primitive forest. Society's prime gift to man is security.

70:9.2 Gradually society asserted its rights and, at the present time, they are:

1. Assurance of food supply.
2. Military defense—security through preparedness.
3. Internal peace preservation—prevention of personal violence and social disorder.
4. Sex control—marriage, the family institution.
5. Property—the right to own.
6. Fostering of individual and group competition.
7. Provision for educating and training youth.
8. Promotion of trade and commerce—industrial development.
9. Improvement of labor conditions and rewards.
10. The guarantee of the freedom of religious practices to the end that all of these other social activities may be exalted by becoming spiritually motivated.

70:9.13 When rights are old beyond knowledge of origin, they are often called natural rights. But human rights are not really natural; they are entirely social. They are relative and ever changing, being no more than the rules of the game—recognized adjustments of relations governing the ever-changing phenomena of human competition.


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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nodAmanaV wrote:
If there's anything I've taken away from my studies of the Urantia Book it is this: As human beings, there is no such thing as privacy! Ever. Not only are we being observed 24/7 by our celestial mentors, they are also monitoring each and every one of our thoughts. And I like that. Without this understanding, I would be much farther behind in my personal spiritual development. Why? Because the notion that I'm constantly being observed eventually made it impossible for me to keep doing what I know is wrong. Especially those nasty little "secretive" things most human beings do sometimes. I know you know what I'm talking about.

There may be a "right" to privacy, but in reality no such thing exists.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/mor ... -accounts/


Seriously? You are equating the loving overcare and guidance of our unseen friends with modern day police state surveillance? Wow ....


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Treating everyone (Muslims) like they're saints and loving on them like you would your own mama is pearl before swine, when they can hide behind their secret to kill you. Allah Akbar!

Don't be like Prime Minister Chamberlain.


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Seriously? You are equating the loving overcare and guidance of our unseen friends with modern day police state surveillance? Wow ....


Police State?

Render unto Caesar.

70:9.13 When rights are old beyond knowledge of origin, they are often called natural rights. But human rights are not really natural; they are entirely social. They are relative and ever changing, being no more than the rules of the game—recognized adjustments of relations governing the ever-changing phenomena of human competition.

If you play the game you must follow the rules. Are you above the rules? The state has the right to defend itself. Are you willing only to follow the rules you like and benefit from the social contract of society? Are you an anarchist?


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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There's a *HUGE* difference between a "modern police state system" and a well intentioned and absolutely necessary security infrastructure that enables competent and honest security professionals to track extremely dangerous criminals and prevent them from causing major harm and to convict them if that becomes necessary. By "modern police state system" you mean essentially the Russian and North Korean political-military totalitarian systems, don't you?

How on Earth do people think France, Britain, Sweden, the Netherlands and Turkey, to name a few countries, are able to prevent severe destruction in many cases (but not enough obviously) by criminals and terrorists?

I know this conflict of values through and through as my dear brother also panders to the extremely self-privileged and self condescending attitude that citizens have an absolute right to absolute privacy in all things. My question is, are you who hold such an opinion willing to sacrifice your friends and family members for that pandered self-patronizing privilege? That is NOT a rhetorical question. If you lived elsewhere, such as Europe or the Mid East, you would feel the sting of the answer a bit more...


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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All attempts to intrude on an individual's privacy should be conditioned by the Golden Rule. If the intent is to protect from imminent harm, that is something one would have another to unto him. If the intent is to collect data that can be stored, accumulated, and used to mine information about individuals in order to facilitate the ability to persecute them based upon their personal choices, their lifestyle, or their religious beliefs, that would not be something one would wish to have done to them.

It is the intent that is important. Also to what extent is the invasion of privacy *directly related to* the protections being offered? Or are there additional motivations for the privacy intrusion and the resulting information/ data that is collected. Power? Money? Influence? Blackmail?


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
It is the intent that is important. Also to what extent is the invasion of privacy *directly related to* the protections being offered? Or are there additional motivations for the privacy intrusion and the resulting information/ data that is collected. Power? Money? Influence? Blackmail?


Are you projecting your own motivations?

Are you generous with other people's money?

Are you generous with other people's time?

Are you generous with other people's property?

Are you generous with other people's security?

Those that say yes to any of the above are thieves!

God may judge thieves with Divine Justice as to motive but Caesar judges them by the laws of this world and they will hang on the cross.

If you are not the thief that takes away my security then you are the thief that takes away my freewill choice. Either way, you are condemned, by Caesar or by the Divine.

BTW, are you subject to blackmail?


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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We are all subject to blackmail, whether real or contrived.


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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So should we protect against blackmail but not against suicide bombers?


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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MannyC wrote:


BTW, are you subject to blackmail?


Ah, the old 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' argument. I do not fear for myself, I fear for our society under invasive surveillance and lack of privacy. Living under the constant scrutiny of government surveillance can produce long-lasting social harm: if citizens are made to feel more and more fearful, they will be little less likely to freely associate, ane then a little less likely to dissent. The aggregate effect is chilling.


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Why is this posed as an all-or-nothing when clearly that choice is not the one we are confronted with? There are reasonable ways to ensure the safety of any population while maintaining dignity of the populace. Yes, we are open books to the celestial administration, but this does not need to be the case for our less perfect human rulers.

Besides, don't you guys remember? As a civilization progresses toward L&L there is LESS government, not more....


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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nodAmanaV wrote:
So should we protect against blackmail but not against suicide bombers?


We have TSA screenings at airports
We have police, FBI, CIA, DHS, NSA
We have our own wits and ability to sense danger
We have laws, courts, and justice systems
We have neighbors, friends, and strangers who look out for one another

We are protected against suicide bombers as best as it can be done. Risk is inherent in material life. There is no safety guarantee. Honestly, you take your life in your hands every time you step into an automobile WAY more than you are realistically ever going to be exposed to a terrorist attack or suicide bomber!

Should we banish all cars from the country? :badgrin:


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Maybe this is really a question of how free of corruption a government agency can be in this day and age?

That's certainly a problem that can be solved, if the agency charged with surveilance of the service is both given enough power and authonomy itself yet is likewise under surveilance of yet another agency... The division of power of the U.S. government into the legislative, judicial and executive branches is pretty effective (unless a sinister conspiracy is actually in place, and in that case, why would that conspiracy be allowed if it weren't in accordance with the will of the "Most Highs") ?


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 Post subject: Re: The Right to Privacy
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
MannyC wrote:


BTW, are you subject to blackmail?


Ah, the old 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' argument. I do not fear for myself, I fear for our society under invasive surveillance and lack of privacy. Living under the constant scrutiny of government surveillance can produce long-lasting social harm: if citizens are made to feel more and more fearful, they will be little less likely to freely associate, ane then a little less likely to dissent. The aggregate effect is chilling.


But you just made the argument to Fear Not! Perhaps the better question is; Will you succumb to blackmail out of fear?

How about tying the refugee question to the consent of the governed?


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