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nodAmanaV wrote:
I apologize, this one really burns in me.


No need for apologies, nod. But it is best to keep calm.


nodAmanaV wrote:
Is what the Urantia Book says complex or simple?


TUB is complex because it speaks of creation and not just the creator.


nodAmanaV wrote:
Does one need to be a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to understand the text of the Urantia book?


No. But one does need a certain degree of relationship to ones Adjuster and the will to understand.


nodAmanaV wrote:
Is what Jesus taught complex or simple?


Simple. "Our Father"


nodAmanaV wrote:
If we are the sons of God, is that complex or simple?


God is One. He has no particulars. We are complex for we are creations of His imaginings. God is not what He imagines. The Infinite is Unity, creation is multiplicity and finite, therefore, complex.


nodAmanaV wrote:
Is simple complex?


No. The complex is a projection of the simple.


nodAmanaV wrote:
Here's a paradox:
Is simple complex?
Yes.

nodAmanaV wrote:
Considering the preceding, for folks like Lucifer, Satan, Caligastia and Daligastia, simple is complex.



I do not believe that there is a paradox between simple and complex.

The complex is a creation of the the simple, not the other way. They are related by a projection. They do not touch and, therefore, cannot be the same. One is not the extension of the other, one is the the projection of the other. The projector does not touch the screen. Paradise does not directly touch space-time. Gravity acts at a distance.

The folly of the rebels is attempting to make the complex, simple.


Last edited by MannyC on Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:56 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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When the cows come home, will they arrive via Burlington Northern and Santa Fe, or in the back seat of a Fiat?


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fanofVan wrote:
As Rexford stated already, love is a complex concept with many levels of perception and application.



fanofVan wrote:
Love is not complicated nor complex.


Brad, can you explain the difference between the concept of love and love?


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Sure Manny....consistency is important.....what I mean is the "mortal" concepts of love are all over the map, including self indulgence (I love to eat, etc.), romantic infatuation, passion for a school or team or candidate, etc., self adoration, celebrity worship, et al.

Pure love of the selfless or self forgetting form is not complicated. In its purity however are multiple levels of appreciation or utilization...it's all the same love, but its form applied by mind in maturity, experience, and wisdom may be less or more in power and effect. But that love given to any other without self-gratification at its center is pure regardless of its voltage (power of effect), Or so I understand it.

Sorry for the apparent contradiction.

8)


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If one attains the fullness of being self forgetting, would one end up in the hospital for not remembering how to breathe?


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Breathe in. Breathe out.
Breathe in. Breathe out.
Forget this and attaining Enlightenment
will be the least of your problems. :lol:

coop wrote:
The buddhist walks up to the hot dog vendor and tells him to "make me one with everything."

...The vendor gives him a hot dog and the buddhist gives him a twenty dollar bill. After a moment of waiting, the buddhist asks, "Where's my change?" The vendor smiles and says, "Ahh, change must come from within." 8)


"Things are not what they seem; nor are they otherwise.”

"Q: Why can't a Buddhist vacuum under the sofa? A: Because he has no attachments.”

A student is on one side of a raging river. There are no bridges. He has no boat. He shouts out to the master on the opposite bank. “How do I get to the other side?” The master shouts back: “You are on the other side.”

Love me some Zen in the morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to love.......and its critical and functional role in enlightening and attainment!

143:1.4 (1608.1) “I have come into this world to do the will of my Father and to reveal his loving character to all mankind. That, my brethren, is my mission. And this one thing I will do, regardless of the misunderstanding of my teachings by Jews or gentiles of this day or of another generation. But you should not overlook the fact that even divine love has its severe disciplines. A father’s love for his son oftentimes impels the father to restrain the unwise acts of his thoughtless offspring. The child does not always comprehend the wise and loving motives of the father’s restraining discipline. But I declare to you that my Father in Paradise does rule a universe of universes by the compelling power of his love. Love is the greatest of all spirit realities. Truth is a liberating revelation, but love is the supreme relationship. And no matter what blunders your fellow men make in their world management of today, in an age to come the gospel which I declare to you will rule this very world. The ultimate goal of human progress is the reverent recognition of the fatherhood of God and the loving materialization of the brotherhood of man.

143:2.7 (1610.2) “Your sonship is grounded in faith, and you are to remain unmoved by fear. Your joy is born of trust in the divine word, and you shall not therefore be led to doubt the reality of the Father’s love and mercy. It is the very goodness of God that leads men into true and genuine repentance. Your secret of the mastery of self is bound up with your faith in the indwelling spirit, which ever works by love. Even this saving faith you have not of yourselves; it also is the gift of God. And if you are the children of this living faith, you are no longer the bondslaves of self but rather the triumphant masters of yourselves, the liberated sons of God.

143:6.4 (1615.5) The theme of Jesus’ teaching on Mount Gerizim was: That he wants all men to see God as a Father-friend just as he (Jesus) is a brother-friend. And again and again he impressed upon them that love is the greatest relationship in the world — in the universe — just as truth is the greatest pronouncement of the observation of these divine relationships.

196:3.29 (2096.5) Religious insight possesses the power of turning defeat into higher desires and new determinations. Love is the highest motivation which man may utilize in his universe ascent. But love, divested of truth, beauty, and goodness, is only a sentiment, a philosophic distortion, a psychic illusion, a spiritual deception. Love must always be redefined on successive levels of morontia and spirit progression.

117:6.10 (1289.3) All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.

156:5.11 (1739.6) You are destined to live a narrow and mean life if you learn to love only those who love you. Human love may indeed be reciprocal, but divine love is outgoing in all its satisfaction-seeking. The less of love in any creature’s nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need. Love is never self-seeking, and it cannot be self-bestowed. Divine love cannot be self-contained; it must be unselfishly bestowed.

156:5.12 (1739.7) Kingdom believers should possess an implicit faith, a whole-souled belief, in the certain triumph of righteousness. Kingdom builders must be undoubting of the truth of the gospel of eternal salvation. Believers must increasingly learn how to step aside from the rush of life — escape the harassments of material existence — while they refresh the soul, inspire the mind, and renew the spirit by worshipful communion.

156:5.13 (1739.8) God-knowing individuals are not discouraged by misfortune or downcast by disappointment. Believers are immune to the depression consequent upon purely material upheavals; spirit livers are not perturbed by the episodes of the material world. Candidates for eternal life are practitioners of an invigorating and constructive technique for meeting all of the vicissitudes and harassments of mortal living. Every day a true believer lives, he finds it easier to do the right thing.


8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Sure Manny....consistency is important.....what I mean is the "mortal" concepts of love are all over the map, including self indulgence (I love to eat, etc.), romantic infatuation, passion for a school or team or candidate, etc., self adoration, celebrity worship, et al.

Pure love of the selfless or self forgetting form is not complicated. In its purity however are multiple levels of appreciation or utilization...it's all the same love, but its form applied by mind in maturity, experience, and wisdom may be less or more in power and effect. But that love given to any other without self-gratification at its center is pure regardless of its voltage (power of effect), Or so I understand it.

Sorry for the apparent contradiction.

8)


Please, Brad, no apologies are needed. Remember that love means never having to say you are sorry. 8)

So, as I understand what you have written, there are higher loves and a lower loves, in degrees. The higher the love being in inverse relation to the selfishness and self-gratification. Yes?

We can agree that God is Love. Also, God's love is perfect and pure. My question is, do you think that God is not gratified by His love for His creation?

Does God gain anything from our worship of Him? Is God selfless? Does He regard Himself? Is God perfectly satisfied?

Is seeking joy through loving ministry a form of self-gratification? Should love be questioned as to motive?


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I look forward to your opinions Manny and that text which relates. Certainly God the Supreme "gains" by every experience and expression of love. And I don't think love, the essence of pure love, comes in degrees, no. But the wisdom of those who express love does moderate its effect in degrees of wisdom perhaps. 6 volt is as pure as 220 but it does not have the same force or effect - still pure current though. God is the original "turbine" of love creation and we are the grid-end "outlet"....the wiser and more experienced is our love, the greater the current applied. (this metaphor is entirely inadequate of course to illustrate the love circuit or mind or spirit gravity circuits)

As to God's self regard, etc., I'll let others speak to that. God needs no justification however and should never be made into the image of man as is our historical preponderance and error. We cannot truly fathom God or His nature or His purpose or His plan....but we may be assured of our standing as children in one family in love with and service to one another. I am sure of that much. He has created a system where the lowliest attain the highest and the highest attain/serve the lowest in a universe of experiential evolution into perfection by free will choice over time. And that eventuation/result will bring about entirely new levels of experience and ministry in the eternities to come. Glorious.

8)


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I simply love you.

"sont des mots qui vont tres bien ensemble tres bien ensemble"


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fanofVan wrote:
[. . .] God needs no justification however and should never be made into the image of man as is our historical preponderance and error. We cannot truly fathom God or His nature or His purpose or His plan....but we may be assured of our standing as children in one family in love with and service to one another. I am sure of that much. He has created a system where the lowliest attain the highest and the highest attain/serve the lowest in a universe of experiential evolution into perfection by free will choice over time. And that eventuation/result will bring about entirely new levels of experience and ministry in the eternities to come. Glorious.

Eloquent words "fanofVan" where I can agree with your statement above, which I have underlined.
But, is it possible that there are other's who believe in specifics when it comes to God's Plan or a Plan for Salvation?
Would you say that the following could also be interpreted within the Urantia Book text similar in its context?

Image
"The Plan of Salvation, as illustrated by some within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (not doctrinal)"

So love is not limited to just the Urantia Book, or how it may be interpreted?


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fanofVan wrote:
I look forward to your opinions Manny and that text which relates. Certainly God the Supreme "gains" by every experience and expression of love. And I don't think love, the essence of pure love, comes in degrees, no. But the wisdom of those who express love does moderate its effect in degrees of wisdom perhaps. 6 volt is as pure as 220 but it does not have the same force or effect - still pure current though. God is the original "turbine" of love creation and we are the grid-end "outlet"....the wiser and more experienced is our love, the greater the current applied. (this metaphor is entirely inadequate of course to illustrate the love circuit or mind or spirit gravity circuits)

As to God's self regard, etc., I'll let others speak to that. God needs no justification however and should never be made into the image of man as is our historical preponderance and error. We cannot truly fathom God or His nature or His purpose or His plan....but we may be assured of our standing as children in one family in love with and service to one another. I am sure of that much. He has created a system where the lowliest attain the highest and the highest attain/serve the lowest in a universe of experiential evolution into perfection by free will choice over time. And that eventuation/result will bring about entirely new levels of experience and ministry in the eternities to come. Glorious.

8)


God Is Love but love is not God. This is because love is multiple and God is One.

Are you saying that pure love is qualitatively superior to immature mortal love? If not a question of degrees is it a question of quality? What makes all of these loves different? Is it a matter of motive? Does selfishness nullify love?

God needs no justification from His creatures but must He justify Himself to Himself? Is the Trinity a technique of self justification? Is the Trinity a technique of self-gratification? Three is company and company is gratifying.


Can God be satisfied? Does Infinite love satisfy Him? If so, why must He continue to create?

Just food for thought. I like nod's summation.


nodAmanaV wrote:
I simply love you.

"sont des mots qui vont tres bien ensemble tres bien ensemble"


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“Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.”
― Lao Tzu


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The New Commandment

180:1.1 (1944.4) “When I enacted for you a parable indicating how you should be willing to serve one another, I said that I desired to give you a new commandment; and I would do this now as I am about to leave you. You well know the commandment which directs that you love one another; that you love your neighbor even as yourself. But I am not wholly satisfied with even that sincere devotion on the part of my children. I would have you perform still greater acts of love in the kingdom of the believing brotherhood. And so I give you this new commandment: That you love one another even as I have loved you."

180:1.2 (1944.5) “When I give you this new commandment, I do not place any new burden upon your souls; rather do I bring you new joy and make it possible for you to experience new pleasure in knowing the delights of the bestowal of your heart’s affection upon your fellow men. I am about to experience the supreme joy, even though enduring outward sorrow, in the bestowal of my affection upon you and your fellow mortals."

180:1.3 (1944.6) “When I invite you to love one another, even as I have loved you, I hold up before you the supreme measure of true affection, for greater love can no man have than this: that he will lay down his life for his friends. And you are my friends; you will continue to be my friends if you are but willing to do what I have taught you. You have called me Master, but I do not call you servants. If you will only love one another as I am loving you, you shall be my friends, and I will ever speak to you of that which the Father reveals to me."

180:1.4 (1945.1) “You have not merely chosen me, but I have also chosen you, and I have ordained you to go forth into the world to yield the fruit of loving service to your fellows even as I have lived among you and revealed the Father to you. The Father and I will both work with you, and you shall experience the divine fullness of joy if you will only obey my command to love one another, even as I have loved you.”


***

142:5.4 (1601.4) “You, then, who hear this message and believe this gospel of the kingdom are the sons of God, and you have life everlasting; and the evidence to all the world that you have been born of the spirit is that you sincerely love one another.”


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fanofVan wrote:
I look forward to your opinions Manny and that text which relates.


Brad, I look forward to your opinion. I want to know what your TA is saying through you. I want to hear from Father through my brothers. I need to here from you and not so much from text.

Who of TUB authors have a TA? Why to the authors of TUB use as many human sources as they can? Because Father is in our human minds. God knowing men have important Truths to tell us. I would prefer hearing what you think.

Us mortals have Father at hand. Father is love. Tell me what you think and I will tell you what I think. We may not perfectly transmit our TA but what does come through is recognizable by others who are listening to their TA.

Us lowly mortals have a fragment of infinite love within. The last shall be first.


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Greetings fanofVan,

fanofVan wrote:
And I don't think love, the essence of pure love, comes in degrees, no. But the wisdom of those who express love does moderate its effect in degrees of wisdom perhaps.


It's my understanding that God's "pure" love, as you call it, does come in degrees, according to the soul's capacity for receptivity and the personality's devotion to God's will. God's love is personal and comes as a spiritual presence which is felt within the soul.

The spiritual presence of Divinity must of necessity be differential in the universe. It is determined by the spiritual capacity of receptivity and by the degree of the consecration of the creature’s will to the doing of the divine will. 5:2:1

I'm wondering if the Father's personality circuit is his the avenue for his love expression, personality to personality.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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