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I didn't say it was passive Manny...I said your description of a gesture of acceptance was passive....which I may have misinterpreted? We are taught to act to overcome evil with good - not with more evil and not by passive acceptance either. This goes I think to that teaching to be wise and innocent both. Something I find a bit of a challenge on occasion. I believe it was Ali McGraw in Love Story who said "love is never having to say you're sorry" (never did understand that line either).....not Jesus.....I must've missed that quote....sorry....and you're welcome! :wink:

8)


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Greetings,

They do tell us that divine love functions in association with divine wisdom. I don't think the two are entirely separable. Love without wisdom is really something else, something shallow and fleeting, or so I think.

But the love of God is an intelligent and farseeing parental affection. The divine love functions in unified association with divine wisdom and all other infinite characteristics of the perfect nature of the Universal Father. 2:5:10

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Louis,

It's nice to see you back, albeit not with your previous zeal nor forthrightness. Having Jesus there is so comforting isn't it?. Always when we think we are alone in our struggles and disappointments, after we look to him for solace we discover that he has already encountered the very same thing but more, and won. That's why we give it all to him.

141:7.12 (1594.6) The apostles were beginning to recognize the unaffected friendliness of Jesus. Though the Master was easy of approach, he always lived independent of, and above, all human beings. Not for one moment was he ever dominated by any purely mortal influence or subject to frail human judgment. He paid no attention to public opinion, and he was un-influenced by praise. He seldom paused to correct misunderstandings or to resent misrepresentation.


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I think there is value and meaning in love given even without wisdom....but there is far less power and effect with less wisdom. I am reminded, for example, of "false sympathy"....unwise sympathy and unwise love are not the ideal.

8)


155:3.4 (1727.4) Increasingly they learned from Jesus to look upon human personalities in terms of their possibilities in time and in eternity. They learned that many souls can best be led to love the unseen God by being first taught to love their brethren whom they can see. And it was in this connection that new meaning became attached to the Master’s pronouncement concerning unselfish service for one’s fellows: “Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of my brethren, you did it to me.”

56:10.12 (647.3) Goodness is the mental recognition of the relative values of the diverse levels of divine perfection. The recognition of goodness implies a mind of moral status, a personal mind with ability to discriminate between good and evil. But the possession of goodness, greatness, is the measure of real divinity attainment.

56:10.13 (647.4) The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth — the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

56:10.14 (647.5) Every impulse of every electron, thought, or spirit is an acting unit in the whole universe. Only sin is isolated and evil gravity resisting on the mental and spiritual levels. The universe is a whole; no thing or being exists or lives in isolation. Self-realization is potentially evil if it is antisocial. It is literally true: “No man lives by himself.” Cosmic socialization constitutes the highest form of personality unification. Said Jesus: “He who would be greatest among you, let him become server of all.”

56:10.15 (647.6) Even truth, beauty, and goodness — man’s intellectual approach to the universe of mind, matter, and spirit — must be combined into one unified concept of a divine and supreme ideal. As mortal personality unifies the human experience with matter, mind, and spirit, so does this divine and supreme ideal become power-unified in Supremacy and then personalized as a God of fatherly love.

56:10.16 (647.7) All insight into the relations of the parts to any given whole requires an understanding grasp of the relation of all parts to that whole; and in the universe this means the relation of created parts to the Creative Whole. Deity thus becomes the transcendental, even the infinite, goal of universal and eternal attainment.


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Greetings fanofVan,

You wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I think there is value and meaning in love given even without wisdom....but there is far less power and effect with less wisdom. I am reminded, for example, of "false sympathy"....unwise sympathy and unwise love are not the ideal.


I agree that nothing of value is ever lost. What I was referring to is the "wise as serpents and harmless as doves" metaphor. Wisdom and love are intertwined when put into practice. Indiscriminate loving is not always wise and wisdom without love is often mechanical.

Love as an emotion is not really love, it's something else. Love requires a thorough understanding of another person's motives and sentiments, which is where the wisdom comes in. Love requires a mutual regard of whole personalities - a thorough appreciation of one person by another, meaning wholehearted, whole-minded.

Love is personal and it requires personalities. Superficial love is not really love; it's something else - a feeling, intuition or emotion which can be had from all sorts of non-personal activities. Even the divine love which we feel as a result of the Spirit within us is a feeling of a presence. Jesus said to feel the presence of God, which means to thoroughly appreciate the company of another divine person within your soul, to regard his presence with your whole person, including your wisdom part.

In the true meaning of the word, love connotes mutual regard of whole personalities, whether human or divine or human and divine. 112:2:7

You cannot truly love your fellows by a mere act of the will. Love is only born of thoroughgoing understanding of your neighbor's motives and sentiments. 100:4:6


Love is also described as the coordination and comprehension of truth, beauty and goodness. A high order of love occurs when truth, beauty and goodness are coordinated by the whole personality and conditioned by wisdom as stated below.

Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty. 2:7:12

In Friendship,
Rexford


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fanofVan wrote:
I believe it was Ali McGraw in Love Story who said "love is never having to say you're sorry" (never did understand that line either).....not Jesus.....I must've missed that quote....sorry....and you're welcome!


It was Ali McGraw to Ryan O'Neal in "Love Story" (circa 1970). You're an aging tadpole to remember that one. :wink:

141:7.13 James was astonished at how Jesus seemed to see the end from the beginning. The Master rarely appeared to be surprised. He was never excited, vexed, or disconcerted. He never apologized to any man. He was at times saddened, but never discouraged.


If God is love and love is complex, is God complex? Is God a complex Person or a simple Person?


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Louis I know your asking the question honestly, but I believe this is at the very heart of our most confused mis-understanding about truth and lies. I'll even go so far as to say that it's at the base of what is so terrible about what our rebellious and traitorous fallen rulers put in motion. A lie is a worse crime than murder - period. When they said God is a lie (or whatever they said) they turned the most simple and beautiful thing into something "complex". When I hear some one tell me that I can't understand something because it's "complex" I know they're lying. Sophistication is a bad thing. The truth is ALWAYS simple! The truth may not be easy to discover sometimes but . . . lies are ALWAYS "complex".

I apologize, this one really burns in me.


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Is what the Urantia Book says complex or simple?


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Does one need to be a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon to understand the text of the Urantia book?


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Is what Jesus taught complex or simple?


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If we are the sons of God, is that complex or simple?


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Is simple complex?


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Complications and complexities and diffculties.....ahhhh, the need for priests, sorcerers, and wizards!!!! What are the two great commandments? How hard was that? Love is not complicated nor complex. It grows in power according to our participation in it and the wisdom applied but still is not complicated.....the fruits of the spirit are a response or an effect which leads to more fruit on the growing vine. We are to be as joyful as children because we are certain in the love of our Father, Mother, and Brother Creators and we live in a friendly universe of eternal fun and adventure. Not complex.

Now certainly the mysteries of the universes and time and space and eternity and infinity will require that education to come and many such details are presented in the UB by authors who themselves reveal their own wonder at creation and its many circuits and their workings. This does not make the Papers complex. It does make them comprehensive and some students appreciate different presentations more so than others according to their education and personal interests....this I think to engage more readers and give each that sense of wonder and appreciation for the interconnectedness of all reality and all truth.

We are presented with paradox however for our minds to appreciate and learn from. I gained so much insight and truth about such before finding the UB by Easternizing my Jesusonian beliefs. Jesus presented many such paradoxes in His teachings too - he who would be greatest must serve the least, he with some will be given more while he with none will have it taken, those who would be first, etc. As I noted above, the best way to serve self is through self forgetting...to be selfless propels the self into eternity, while being selfish prevents the very survival of self. I love such Koans for the material mind to seek resolution and find wisdom by appreciating that much which is apparent in its contradiction is actually a way to "see" reality by its unification within.

Learning to feast with confidence in our uncertainty and fatten joyfully upon our disappointments, undaunted and even invigorated in the endless learning adventure in which we live every moment. Not complicated....but a quest for the ages, the quest for Paradise! And any fool can do it no matter how ignorant or poor or.......whatever. Glorious. Thank God for life....and for love.

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Here's a paradox:
Is simple complex?
Yes.


James and Judas Alpheus

139:10.1 (1563.2) James and Judas the sons of Alpheus, the twin fishermen living near Kheresa, were the ninth and tenth apostles and were chosen by James and John Zebedee. They were twenty-six years old and married, James having three children, Judas two.

139:10.2 (1563.3) There is not much to be said about these two commonplace fisherfolk. They loved their Master and Jesus loved them, but they never interrupted his discourses with questions. They understood very little about the philosophical discussions or the theological debates of their fellow apostles, but they rejoiced to find themselves numbered among such a group of mighty men. These two men were almost identical in personal appearance, mental characteristics, and extent of spiritual perception. What may be said of one should be recorded of the other.

139:10.3 (1563.4) Andrew assigned them to the work of policing the multitudes. They were the chief ushers of the preaching hours and, in fact, the general servants and errand boys of the twelve. They helped Philip with the supplies, they carried money to the families for Nathaniel, and always were they ready to lend a helping hand to any one of the apostles.

139:10.4 (1563.5) The multitudes of the common people were greatly encouraged to find two like themselves honored with places among the apostles. By their very acceptance as apostles these mediocre twins were the means of bringing a host of fainthearted believers into the kingdom. And, too, the common people took more kindly to the idea of being directed and managed by official ushers who were very much like themselves.

139:10.5 (1563.6) James and Judas, who were also called Thaddeus and Lebbeus, had neither strong points nor weak points. The nicknames given them by the disciples were good-natured designations of mediocrity. They were “the least of all the apostles”; they knew it and felt cheerful about it.

139:10.6 (1563.7) James Alpheus especially loved Jesus because of the Master’s simplicity. These twins could not comprehend the mind of Jesus, but they did grasp the sympathetic bond between themselves and the heart of their Master. Their minds were not of a high order; they might even reverently be called stupid, but they had a real experience in their spiritual natures. They believed in Jesus; they were sons of God and fellows of the kingdom.

139:10.7 (1564.1) Judas Alpheus was drawn toward Jesus because of the Master’s unostentatious humility. Such humility linked with such personal dignity made a great appeal to Judas. The fact that Jesus would always enjoin silence regarding his unusual acts made a great impression on this simple child of nature.

139:10.8 (1564.2) The twins were good-natured, simple-minded helpers, and everybody loved them. Jesus welcomed these young men of one talent to positions of honor on his personal staff in the kingdom because there are untold millions of other such simple and fear-ridden souls on the worlds of space whom he likewise wishes to welcome into active and believing fellowship with himself and his outpoured Spirit of Truth. Jesus does not look down upon littleness, only upon evil and sin. James and Judas were little, but they were also faithful. They were simple and ignorant, but they were also big-hearted, kind, and generous. *

139:10.9 (1564.3) And how gratefully proud were these humble men on that day when the Master refused to accept a certain rich man as an evangelist unless he would sell his goods and help the poor. When the people heard this and beheld the twins among his counselors, they knew of a certainty that Jesus was no respecter of persons. But only a divine institution — the kingdom of heaven — could ever have been built upon such a mediocre human foundation!

139:10.10 (1564.4) Only once or twice in all their association with Jesus did the twins venture to ask questions in public. Judas was once intrigued into asking Jesus a question when the Master had talked about revealing himself openly to the world. He felt a little disappointed that there were to be no more secrets among the twelve, and he made bold to ask: “But, Master, when you do thus declare yourself to the world, how will you favor us with special manifestations of your goodness?”

139:10.11 (1564.5) The twins served faithfully until the end, until the dark days of trial, crucifixion, and despair. They never lost their heart faith in Jesus, and (save John) they were the first to believe in his resurrection. But they could not comprehend the establishment of the kingdom. Soon after their Master was crucified, they returned to their families and nets; their work was done. They had not the ability to go on in the more complex battles of the kingdom. But they lived and died conscious of having been honored and blessed with four years of close and personal association with a Son of God, the sovereign maker of a universe.



Considering the preceding, for folks like Lucifer, Satan, Caligastia and Daligastia, simple is complex.


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The buddhist walks up to the hot dog vendor and tells him to "make me one with everything."

...The vendor gives him a hot dog and the buddhist gives him a twenty dollar bill. After a moment of waiting, the buddhist asks, "Where's my change?" The vendor smiles and says, "Ahh, change must come from within." 8)


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