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brooklyn,

Again . . . . and your point is? Explain yourself please.

Rexford


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Rexford, does your post have anything to do with Urantia book discussion?

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Larry,

I'm sorry but I do not understand your point. I posted a response to a quote from the UB:

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100:4.4 "... If some one irritates you, causes feelings of resentment, you should sympathetically seek to discern his viewpoint, his reasons for such objectionable conduct. If once you understand your neighbor, you will become tolerant, and this tolerance will grow into friendship and ripen into love."

Yes, I agree that it is important to discern another's viewpoint, but that does not excuse the objectionable conduct. There is no excuse for objectionable conduct. And there is nothing wrong with pointing out another's objectionable conduct while you are sympathetically seeking to understand it.


I agreed with the quote but added that it doesn't excuse the offender's objectionable conduct which caused the irritation in the first place. Is that opinion against the Urantia Papers? Is this a comment totally unrelated to the Urantia Papers? I'm afraid I am at a loss to understand your question.

Maybe with more information from you I can find some quotes to support the idea.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Also Larry,

Another thought. I assume you are referring to the post in which I asked brooklyn to explain himself. Is that not precisely what quote 100:4:4 asks us to do? To seek to know the other person's motives?

Still wondering,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
brooklyn,

Again . . . . and your point is? Explain yourself please.

Rexford



Rex, never mind. It's cool.

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What is fascinating is the borderland between human associations and symbols, as far as Adjuster harmonization and guidance is concerned. Trances are very dangerous states to be reckoned with, and more depends on human willingness of cooperation. Have you ever interacted with someone in a trance, usually such persons lack the "presence" needed for adequate interaction. The "distance" and "objectivity" of such a person seems contrastive to our words "fusion" and "adjuster embrace", which imply that the soul approacheth divine reality.

It is in the harmonization of thoughts and symbols where we find the most probable aspects of Thought Adjuster dominance in human behaviour. This is where the spiritual induction pathways combine with the human intellect, such as would be made discernible to the conscious mind. However, where is the discernment or differentiation amongst normal human behaviours versus the Adjuster-dominated individual. If the Holy Spirit testifies "with your spirit" that you are the faith son, how could you truly even make such a distinction.

So often, we are told to pray so as to "speak to God", as another person. But what about the idea of God as "who I ought to be", seeing as that God is not hiding but simply the presence of God is preeminent.

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"Blessed are the pure in spirit, for they shall see God"

I am often reminded of the question that I read in the Tao te Ching, when I consider Adjuster Guidance:
"You have the patience to sit by the pond and witness as the waters become clear?"

The notion that any time a person would effort to interject his own thought in place of Adjuster-God, he/she would be "muddying the waters", as it were, seem accurate. The snowflakes crystallize in a perfect mold "made without hands" as they fall from the sky, how could human invention attempt such a standard.

The idea of Trance as necessary is really our question, Is necessary to suspend Reason in order to perform God's will. But my personal conclusion is that actually, is only necessary to allow faith to guide the human intellect inaswell as human action, in which case this faith supercedes some ideas as found within human intellect, inasmuch as God is performing actions through such persons.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
The idea of Trance as necessary is really our question, Is necessary to suspend Reason in order to perform God's will. But my personal conclusion is that actually, is only necessary to allow faith to guide the human intellect inaswell as human action, in which case this faith supercedes some ideas as found within human intellect, inasmuch as God is performing actions through such persons.

(143:2.2) At one of the evening conferences, Andrew asked Jesus: "Master, are we to practice self-denial as John taught us, or are we to strive for the self-control of your teaching? Wherein does your teaching differ from that of John?" Jesus answered: "John indeed taught you the way of righteousness in accordance with the light and laws of his fathers, and that was the religion of self-examination and self-denial. But I come with a new message of self-forgetfulness and self-control."


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"as the dazzling vision faded from before them" 158:1.9

^^ The anxiety of Peter Apostle after the Transfiguration.

What seasons of profound Adjustment Jesus underwent before able again to converse with the Melchizedek father and Gabriel. "Acting as if in the presence of the eternal", this is the idea that leads some to believe that trance is necessary in order to retain the impression/interaction of spiritual reality/originalities.

We would hope to have full discernment of the existences of all things relevent to our lives, without giving up the ability to interact with our peers. "Coming down from the mountain", meaning to return to an everyday modality of social interaction amongst other humans. However, it implies that there is a variegated inner life which each of us enjoys, as a prerogatory ability to "seasonally commune" with the father (I hope I am not overstating this).

Jesus' own Apostles were blessed by the service of celestial beings who adjusted their vision temporarily: "they beheld Jesus in intimate converse with two brilliant beings clothed in the habiliments of the light of the celestial world." 158:1.8. What would you say, that during this moment, what may have been an ordinary interaction for Jesus would require profound concentration, adjustment, or even the type of worship that would be described as "in a trancelike status" for another human individual. I feel from a disciplinary stance, it is necessary to offer that such interactions are possibilities, that through worship and perhaps in relevence to an individuals life-work, the mind becomes receptive to Adjuster Guidance while in a deepened spiritually receptive state.

We are not to be too materialistic to believe that physical, gravity-dominated forces, constitute the basis for our psychological existence. It is just as necessary to ascertain for onesself the basic morontial-spiritual needs that each of our families requires. We look to the developmental needs of the body knowing full-well that the body is a catylist for our spiritual developments. But would you regard this type of activity, while devoid of the mortal tabernacle, to be a "break from reality" constituting what the professional classes of the day would denominate trance or psychosis.

"Climbing the mountain", to go away alone for a season of meditation and refreshment, is seen as a leisure activity but doing so helps to eliminate typical human fears and anxieties. Therefore, it is seen as practical not just in alleviating stress but in gathering the type of insights we in this group may denominate "discerning the father's will", and how we may better serve society. In addition, it helps us to tolerate other humans more. Therefore, it should behoove us not to interfere with other individuals' methods of worship/prayer.

"I'm a dreamer" the idea that such prayer/worship is used as a means of self-gratification rather than as a supplement to self-maintenance type of activities is the real concern here. When we observe people resort to "short-cut" methods such as short-breathings or dietary supplements/restrictions should indicate that a person may be seeking "trance" as a means of escaping from duty. We should exhort such individuals to spend more time in the fellowship of others as a means of preventing the risks of self-isolation and resulting delusions.

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(100:5.3) It should be made clear that professions of loyalty to the supreme ideals—the psychic, emotional, and spiritual awareness of God-consciousness—may be a natural and gradual growth or may sometimes be experienced at certain junctures, as in a crisis. The Apostle Paul experienced just such a sudden and spectacular conversion that eventful day on the Damascus road. Gautama Siddhartha had a similar experience the night he sat alone and sought to penetrate the mystery of final truth. Many others have had like experiences, and many true believers have progressed in the spirit without sudden conversion.


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I think that out of trance one would be carried away, led down stream, allowing the universal forces of the universe to act upon the individual. Contrarily, the efforts within the human mind, that causes him to ascend, are often the clearest most poignant examples of how the will individuates within personal psychology. The point is even cosmic mind adjutant forces, every type of impersonal force the may be witnessed by the human mind, do not constitute a single effort of will by that human.

As fanofVan mentions, when men of great potential realise the frivolty, the dimunitive nature of earthly pleasures, there is a great fear. Man should no longer seek the baser pleasures after that point. He has usually become well-nigh despairing, and must seek after the source which provided such insights to his mind.

Or in the case of Jesus' first passover, "it becomes time simply to be about the father's business." And I think that you see some conjecture by the midwayers, how if Jesus went to his rabbinical college two years later, the risk is to revert, to enter a trance of the lower pleasures.

Do you know the type of insanity this is, moreover the risks of souls-morontials who after this life are continuing to seek after the physical pleasures of this life? One cannot have them. One must always seek better things if one is to survive.

As a drop of water flows down stream, it follows established grooves in the earth much as the preestablished methods which have been etched into the pattern of the Supreme Being through the efforts of other spirits and creatures. There is a known pathway which leads ultimatons to return to Nether Paradise through the deepened hollow at the bottom of the center of the universe.

So there are common methods of return to the ocean for waters and return to the paradise for ultimatons. This is a force, which at its centre obliterates the human for, a deluge.

The risk in believing in a spirituality that relies upon universal forces is that by the end of your life, there would be no single effort attributable to yourself as an individuated creation Son of God. Salmon are remembered by their upstream ascent into the freshwaters of their spawning, their carcasses float downstream and are eaten by the Bear.

Within personal remembrance, the search of how to apply oneself in the wisest manner, we are often confronted by images of sensory input which we have seen before. These things have no life but to contain the energies which have been impressed upon our bodies and morontial bodiys. The efforts of seeking widom, perhaps, created a reaction that recalled such details and images. But if we are to become reliant upon these images, seeking these of themselves, we are engaged in a form of idolatry which is now associated with trancelike status.

The idea is that you must super the efforts of all other individuals while creating a "new mold" a new pattern of reference fromwithin the Supreme Mind. It is easy to access the previously saved files of other altruistic beings, but it always requires effort to advance with the Supreme Being. Even when we are devising new methods of self-preservation, does this not require ingenuity the efforts are always worthwhile.

You will see "when you are standing on the mountain", the revelation of all the work that is to be done in the universe. But this hypothetical omni-perspective can only be attained after the journey is finished. When you are looking up at the mountain, you are not on top of the mountain, and yet the mountain is a symbol of your ascension goal. This the mountain is not the symbol of God himself, but His universe.

We must transcend the universe in order to find God, even His Revelation. We cannot be satisfied with attainment of the universe itself but only attainment of Him who has created the universe.

Look at the world of spiritual mystics and the trancelike status the pleasure seeking motive has destroyed clans. These individuals profess to have found something truly meaningful but do they go and begin the efforts of rearing children of their own. They will not have their gains in life because they did not bestow their gains upon their own children. They tried to teach themselves, not accepting revelation but denying universe Signs and cosmic adjutant in the attempt of insisting on a partial truth.

Trancelike status is only temporary. When you are conscious, you must break free and begin anew human efforts to be of utmost benevolence to your family. I am not trying to warning of the dangers of trance but of seeking trance as a means of revelation.

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