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Hi I Must Speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
Time is used to measure the motion inside the space that "tags along" with matter that is under linear gravity control.


There is no "time" inside the space of the ultimaton.

Page 141, "....The entire science of mathematics, the whole domain of philosophy, the highest physics or chemistry, could not predict or know that the union of two gaseous hydrogen atoms with one gaseous oxygen atom would result in a new and qualitatively superadditive substance, liquid water. The understanding knowledge of this one physiochemical phenomena should have prevented the development of materialistic philosophy and mechanistic cosmology...."

Should have, but didn't.

So where are we going with this space is a spiral motion discussion....are snowflakes a manifestation of spiral space under linear gravity control or an auto-generated fractal formula derived outside of space, time, and gravity...the primal energy not under gravity control but still in space in the Now?



Motion IS space-time. Space-time IS motion. Motion is the same whether it is motions of space or motions of objects. Space contains matter and matter contains space. And space and time are inseparable. We cannot measure space, only space-time. They cannot be separated even in your analysis.


How can you say that there is no "time" in the space of the Ultimaton? Time and space cannot be separated.

Snow flakes are a results of space-time since motion is spiral and self similar. So, in fact, you could look at it as a fractal. Just consider that the phi spiral of Bernoulli is a self similar spiral governed by e, the base of the natural logarithm. Its formula equation is r = e^aθ. This is the same form as the curve y = e^x which is equal to its own derivative. Motion is self derived, existential even. Eadem mutata resurgo (Though changed, I shall arise the same).

The spiral is in time-space and all motions are time-space. There is no motion in the "now". This "now" is an instant and nothing can happen in an instant. Happenings are time dependent. An event can only occur in time-space. You can analyze the phi spiral and discern that the radius of curvature does "change" in a quantum jump in an instant. This radius jump in "no time" is possible only because you must step into eternity as time goes from instant to instant in order to change curvature. Motion must step out of space-time at every 90 degree turn to maintain the universe as an ongoing concern. Motion must return to its origin and destiny to maintain its purpose. This we have agreed on this before. Paradise is origin and destiny.

The Ultimaton cannot escape the absolute gravity of Paradise, but it can ann does escape time and space in those instants where it originates and arrives, from point to point; from eternity and projected on the screens of space-time (motion) and back to eternity. This only to repeat it all time and time again.

Regards, Louis


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@loucal, you wrote, in part, "The spiral is in time-space and all motions are time-space. There is no motion in the "now". This "now" is an instant and nothing can happen in an instant."

The creation of "Now" was something that happened in an instant, no? :lol:

The first instant created by Paradise - which is not a part of time and space but the origin, upholder and destiny of time, space, and gravity.

The ultimaton does not contain time and space if its motion responds to absolute gravity, I can agree with that. The ultimaton is the motion in an instant.

And we haven't gotten out of the linear rut by replacing it with a circular picture because that is mechanistic.

Circular simultaneity is the experience of "Now" which is all any of us own as "time"....

".....the past is past, the future is unknown, all we have is the here and now, that is why it is called the present..."

We all experience "time" in many different ways in the course of this short and intense human life - there needs to be as many words for "time" as there are words for snow among the Eskimos.

"In the zone" seems to be a common experience among creative types...spirit, mind and matter unified as motion in the Now.


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Hi I Must Speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
The creation of "Now" was something that happened in an instant, no?


No. The "now" is not a creation, eternity is existential. The "now" was never created, it just is.

I Must Speak wrote:
The first instant created by Paradise - which is not a part of time and space but the origin, upholder and destiny of time, space, and gravity.


Paradise is not a creator or upholder and there was never a "first" instant just like there will never be a last instant.

I Must Speak wrote:
The ultimaton does not contain time and space if its motion responds to absolute gravity, I can agree with that. The ultimaton is the motion in an instant.


The Ultimaton DOES contain time and space. It responds only to absolute gravity but not linear gravity. There is no motion in an instant, ultimaton or otherwise.

I Must Speak wrote:
Circular simultaneity is the experience of "Now" which is all any of us own as "time"....


I do not agree. Circular simultaneity is the experience of motion. "Now" is "no time". "Now" is what exists between time. Simultaneity means, 'at the same time'.

I Must Speak wrote:
And we haven't gotten out of the linear rut by replacing it with a circular picture because that is mechanistic.


I don't know what you mean by this statement. Mechanistic thinking is a denial of an uncaused cause. I do not know what that has to do with linear thinking.

I Must Speak wrote:
"In the zone" seems to be a common experience among creative types...spirit, mind and matter unified as motion in the Now.


The figure of speech, "living in the now" or "in the zone", is just that, a figure of speech. Strictly speaking, a "zone" is a spatial reference and cannot have anything with "now", a timeless reference. "Now" is what separates one radius of curvature from another in motion. It is a timeless instant. We cannot experience this instant until we are ushered into eternity in Paradise and stop being time bound creature. We can be only relatively time independent, and only in mind, before then.

Regards, Louis


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@loucal, you might have synthesized certain aspects of the UB in your own mind and found that they fit nicely into theories you already hold dear, but you have not taken into account what UB has to say about "creation":

Page 120 - "It appears to us that the First Source and Center has concentrated all absolute potential for cosmic reality in Paradise as part of his technique of self-liberation from infinity limitations, as a means of making possible subinfinite, even time-space, creation. But it does not follow that Paradise is time-space limited just because the universe of universes discloses those qualities. Paradise exists without time and has no location in space."

That's where I get the idea that the ultimaton is without time-space until it mixes in with time-space through the motion of creation.

If someone tells me about a time when they were "in the zone", I accept that that is what they experienced. What purpose does invalidating personal experience data with theorums have in the scientific method?

Take a look at the fruits they produced while interacting with Deity "in the zone" - truth, beauty, goodness....


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Hi I Must speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
@loucal, you might have synthesized certain aspects of the UB in your own mind and found that they fit nicely into theories you already hold dear, but you have not taken into account what UB has to say about "creation":


I do not deny that I have my out of the box theories, but they were formulated with TUB as the axioms that found those theories.

I Must Speak wrote:
Page 120 - "It appears to us that the First Source and Center has concentrated all absolute potential for cosmic reality in Paradise as part of his technique of self-liberation from infinity limitations, as a means of making possible subinfinite, even time-space, creation. But it does not follow that Paradise is time-space limited just because the universe of universes discloses those qualities. Paradise exists without time and has no location in space."

That's where I get the idea that the ultimaton is without time-space until it mixes in with time-space through the motion of creation.


Honestly, I do not understand that statement. Ultimatons are motion, they are creation. Ultimatons are time-apce creations.


11:9.5 Paradise is not ancestral to any being or living entity; it is not a creator. Personality and mind-spirit relationships are transmissible, but pattern is not. Patterns are never reflections; they are duplications—reproductions. Paradise is the absolute of patterns; Havona is an exhibit of these potentials in actuality.


42:6.3 Ultimatons function by mutual attraction, responding only to the circular Paradise-gravity pull. Without linear-gravity response they are thus held in the universal space drift. Ultimatons are capable of accelerating revolutionary velocity to the point of partial antigravity behavior, but they cannot, independent of force organizers or power directors, attain the critical escape velocity of deindividuation, return to the puissant-energy stage. In nature, ultimatons escape the status of physical existence only when participating in the terminal disruption of a cooled-off and dying sun.

42:6.4 The ultimatons, unknown on Urantia, slow down through many phases of physical activity before they attain the revolutionary-energy prerequisites to electronic organization. Ultimatons have three varieties of motion: mutual resistance to cosmic force, individual revolutions of antigravity potential, and the intraelectronic positions of the one hundred mutually interassociated ultimatons.

42:6.6 Ultimatons do not describe orbits or whirl about in circuits within the electrons, but they do spread or cluster in accordance with their axial revolutionary velocities, thus determining the differential electronic dimensions. This same ultimatonic velocity of axial revolution also determines the negative or positive reactions of the several types of electronic units. The entire segregation and grouping of electronic matter, together with the electric differentiation of negative and positive bodies of energy-matter, result from these various functions of the component ultimatonic interassociation.

42:7.10 The first twenty-seven atoms, those containing from one to twenty-seven orbital electrons, are more easy of comprehension than the rest. From twenty-eight upward we encounter more and more of the unpredictability of the supposed presence of the Unqualified Absolute. But some of this electronic unpredictability is due to differential ultimatonic axial revolutionary velocities and to the unexplained “huddling” proclivity of ultimatons. Other influences—physical, electrical, magnetic, and gravitational—also operate to produce variable electronic behavior. Atoms therefore are similar to persons as to predictability. Statisticians may announce laws governing a large number of either atoms or persons but not for a single individual atom or person.

Here I just point out that the ultimaton is a particle with axial revolutionary velocities. The ancestor to the Ultimaton is the puissant-energy stage. Electronic unpredictability is the hallmark of the confusion in QM as it concerns superposition. The spiral nature of motion allows for spin in three axes simultaneously. This affords infinite degrees of freedom! Nature is infinitely diverse because of this. We need no more than seven dimensions of time-space.

I Must Speak wrote:
If someone tells me about a time when they were "in the zone", I accept that that is what they experienced. What purpose does invalidating personal experience data with theorums have in the scientific method?


It was not my intent to invalidate anyone's personal experience, but "in the zone" is a non-specific figure of speech. It tells me little of the experience itself. These superficial colloquialisms are just that, superficial. This is a lazy cop out for what should be a sincere expression. I am unsure what "data with theorems have in the scientific method" means. Perhaps you could expand on this thought.

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
Hi I Must speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
@loucal, you might have synthesized certain aspects of the UB in your own mind and found that they fit nicely into theories you already hold dear, but you have not taken into account what UB has to say about "creation":


I do not deny that I have my out of the box theories, but they were formulated with TUB as the axioms that found those theories.

I Must Speak wrote:
Page 120 - "It appears to us that the First Source and Center has concentrated all absolute potential for cosmic reality in Paradise as part of his technique of self-liberation from infinity limitations, as a means of making possible subinfinite, even time-space, creation. But it does not follow that Paradise is time-space limited just because the universe of universes discloses those qualities. Paradise exists without time and has no location in space."

That's where I get the idea that the ultimaton is without time-space until it mixes in with time-space through the motion of creation.


Honestly, I do not understand that statement. Ultimatons are motion, they are creation. Ultimatons are time-apce creations.


11:9.5 Paradise is not ancestral to any being or living entity; it is not a creator. Personality and mind-spirit relationships are transmissible, but pattern is not. Patterns are never reflections; they are duplications—reproductions. Paradise is the absolute of patterns; Havona is an exhibit of these potentials in actuality.


42:6.3 Ultimatons function by mutual attraction, responding only to the circular Paradise-gravity pull. Without linear-gravity response they are thus held in the universal space drift. Ultimatons are capable of accelerating revolutionary velocity to the point of partial antigravity behavior, but they cannot, independent of force organizers or power directors, attain the critical escape velocity of deindividuation, return to the puissant-energy stage. In nature, ultimatons escape the status of physical existence only when participating in the terminal disruption of a cooled-off and dying sun.

42:6.4 The ultimatons, unknown on Urantia, slow down through many phases of physical activity before they attain the revolutionary-energy prerequisites to electronic organization. Ultimatons have three varieties of motion: mutual resistance to cosmic force, individual revolutions of antigravity potential, and the intraelectronic positions of the one hundred mutually interassociated ultimatons.

42:6.6 Ultimatons do not describe orbits or whirl about in circuits within the electrons, but they do spread or cluster in accordance with their axial revolutionary velocities, thus determining the differential electronic dimensions. This same ultimatonic velocity of axial revolution also determines the negative or positive reactions of the several types of electronic units. The entire segregation and grouping of electronic matter, together with the electric differentiation of negative and positive bodies of energy-matter, result from these various functions of the component ultimatonic interassociation.

42:7.10 The first twenty-seven atoms, those containing from one to twenty-seven orbital electrons, are more easy of comprehension than the rest. From twenty-eight upward we encounter more and more of the unpredictability of the supposed presence of the Unqualified Absolute. But some of this electronic unpredictability is due to differential ultimatonic axial revolutionary velocities and to the unexplained “huddling” proclivity of ultimatons. Other influences—physical, electrical, magnetic, and gravitational—also operate to produce variable electronic behavior. Atoms therefore are similar to persons as to predictability. Statisticians may announce laws governing a large number of either atoms or persons but not for a single individual atom or person.

Here I just point out that the ultimaton is a particle with axial revolutionary velocities. The ancestor to the Ultimaton is the puissant-energy stage. Electronic unpredictability is the hallmark of the confusion in QM as it concerns superposition. The spiral nature of motion allows for spin in three axes simultaneously. This affords infinite degrees of freedom! Nature is infinitely diverse because of this. We need no more than seven dimensions of time-space.

I Must Speak wrote:
If someone tells me about a time when they were "in the zone", I accept that that is what they experienced. What purpose does invalidating personal experience data with theorums have in the scientific method?


It was not my intent to invalidate anyone's personal experience, but "in the zone" is a non-specific figure of speech. It tells me little of the experience itself. These superficial colloquialisms are just that, superficial. This is a lazy cop out for what should be a sincere expression. I am unsure what "data with theorems have in the scientific method" means. Perhaps you could expand on this thought.

Regards, Louis


Everyone has their own "personal experience data", do they not? Can a theory presume to invalidate anyone's "personal experience data"? There is no scientific value in the invalidation of personal experience with math theories.

A common experience like "in the zone" is neither superficial nor lacking in sincere expression if you have had the same experience. So many people, obviously, have had such an experience that there is no need to say anything more - that's how "slang" takes hold - everyone has "been there and done that".

I never said that paradise is a creator, I was talking about creation (an instant?) and the quote I provided explicitly states what the First Source and Center accomplished with the Creation of Paradise:

Page 120 - "It appears to us that the First Source and Center has concentrated all absolute potential for cosmic reality in Paradise as part of his technique of self-liberation from infinity limitations, as a means of making possible subinfinite, even time-space, creation. But it does not follow that Paradise is time-space limited just because the universe of universes discloses those qualities. Paradise exists without time and has no location in space."

Paradise exists without time and has no location in space.

So a creation (Paradise) that exists "without time and has no location in space" is the generator of absolute gravity. You have to admit that is a "revelation" we humans would never figure out for ourselves - how could we?


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Hi Louis,

We appear to be speaking about the same thing and have the same desire to know the truth, but we are using vastly different languages. There is no thought in my mind as to which language is "superior" or "inferior" --- for I, like yourself, am merely trying to figure out how the Universe IS. And I am doing it by approximating the reality thereof with simple mathematical models. A pinch of intuition and a ton of mathematics, whilst you use a ton of intuition and a pinch of mathematics. Like I said, let me repeat: there is NO apriori reason why one or the other way should be superior. Each uses (and must use) the tools he is more familiar with.

Now, instead of a thousand words I'll show you two pictures. I will not add any explanations. But I do sincerely believe that you will figure out the connection between the two pictures without any explanation --- and when you do, you will see that the infinite Cartesian plane (and here the word "Cartesian" is essential as it canonically decomposes R^2 into a product of two R^1 lines) INHERENTLY contains motion and dynamics. And a beautiful one too --- if you see the beauty in the two pictures that follow:

Image

Image

I offer a hint: these curves are NOT mathematical idealizations of "zero thickness" --- they have specific thicknesses (each their own) and specific locations in this "square plane Universe" of 500x500 pixels. If either their sizes (inner radius and thickness) or positions on the first picture changes, then the result on the second picture will also be different. So, this is slightly more accurate than the modern physics based on absolutely homogeneous and isotropic space model --- it approximates the reality in that at the centre is actually Paradise (or my model thereof). Oh, if I say more I'll give away the puzzle, so I'll stop here... :)

I consider this my first glimpse into the reality of space transmutations "near Paradise", but I realize that this is still a very very rough model. From this to the workable theory of absolute gravity which would also contain a theory of linear gravity that we can verify experimentally here on Urantia is a long long way....

So, the puzzle really is this: how does the second picture come from the first? What is the mysterious force that converts one into another? Ironically, what I said in the above contains the answer, but will you see it? (and, more importantly, will you convince yourself of the truth thereof?)

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Hi I Must Speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
Everyone has their own "personal experience data", do they not? Can a theory presume to invalidate anyone's "personal experience data"? There is no scientific value in the invalidation of personal experience with math theories.


Yes, you are correct. But you must see that these geometries are my personal experience data. I do not presume to invalidate anyone else's experience. We all speak a little different dialects in a sense and there is more than one word symbol system or math symbol system. And remember that written words are twice removed from reality. They are symbols of symbols. I often bypass one set of symbols by speaking directly or thinking in geometries. To an artist a picture is worth a thousand words. If you write to me and say "I'm in the zone" it is superficial as compared to looking me in the eyes and saying, "I'm in the zone", and then giving me a joyous hug. Actions speak louder than words. This is what I meant about superficialities. WE must guard against this in our modern electronic, tweeting, texting culture. I sound really old now don't I? :smile: :(

I Must Speak wrote:
So a creation (Paradise) that exists "without time and has no location in space" is the generator of absolute gravity. You have to admit that is a "revelation" we humans would never figure out for ourselves - how could we?


I agree. Paradise is also the geometric center of infinity.

Regards, Louis


Last edited by loucol on Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:49 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Hi Tigran,

Fascinating diagrams you sent.

11:2.2 In form Paradise differs from the inhabited space bodies: it is not spherical. It is definitely ellipsoid, being one-sixth longer in the north-south diameter than in the east-west diameter. The central Isle is essentially flat, and the distance from the upper surface to the nether surface is one tenth that of the east-west diameter.[quote="tigran"]

Circles have a single focus. An ellipse has two foci and there are infinite ellipses possible depending on the distance between these foci. But of the infinite ellipses there must exist one that is of perfectly proportion.

The center of a circle is the origin of infinite directions. The center is the focus and destiny of infinite directions.

The circle represents time, the square represents space. Since time and space are inseparable then the perfect ellipse must be in proportion to a concentric circle and square whose center is pulled apart to have two foci. This pulling apart of center requires a force tension between the Deity Absolute and the Unqualified Absolute.

0:3.21 As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute.

0:4.5 This is the primal concept of original reality: The Father initiates and maintains Reality. The primal differentials of reality are the deified and the undeified—the Deity Absolute and the Unqualified Absolute. The primal relationship is the tension between them. This Father-initiated divinity-tension is perfectly resolved by, and eternalizes as, the Universal Absolute.



The Hyperbolic space is also pulled apart in equal proportion from its center (y = 1/x) at right angles (90 degrees).

In doing this you create two parabolas at the two foci.

The ensuing perfectly proportional ellipse retains its concentricity with the circles, the squares, the parabolas, the hyperbolas. You have all of the conic sections of Apollonius! And remember the Apollonian circles. Remember that the inverse of the hyperbola is the lemniscate, avery convenient geometry for the hourglass shaped unpervaded space reservoirs.

The ellipse retains it status as the geometric center of Infinity!

You're a genius Tigran! :smile:

Regards, Louis

PS Google "The Devil's Curve"


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Hi Tigran, More insights on your diagram.

The Parabolic space is the space of the Central Universe, Havona. The dark areas in the second diagram that separates the parabolas and the hyperbolas are the semi-quiescent mid pace zones which are "functional extensions" of Paradise.

The space of time-space is hyperbolic, but the space of Havona is parabolic. The is parabolic space cannot participate in space respirations. The perfect spheres of Havona do not rotate. The Havona day and year are the same. The Triata energies of Havona. Only the hyperbola can be orthogonal to the circle. Havona is not a time creation.

Where in God's green Earth did you get this diagram!? I could not put it together till now. Thank you, thank you, thank you!


Regards, Louis


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Thanks, Louis.

I can add that in my model the state depicted on the second diagram "instantly" follows the first one. But I would be very curious to know how it got there, i.e. to see the intermediate states. I can show you what happens on the third and fourth (and so on) "instants of time" (strictly speaking this is not about time per se, i.e. on this level time does not even appear yet, it could be called "an indicator of change" or "pre-time") but I cannot yet determine what was "before" the first instant and, more curiously, what is "in between" the two instants --- this would require a "square root" of a pseudo-differential operator (i.e. like differential operator but of infinite order) which at present is not yet a valid mathematical construction. I tried to approximate it with a series (using Mathematica 10.0.1) but the computer "hang" i.e. most likely the series diverges --- maybe we will never know what happens "between" two instants of "pre-time" :)

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Hi Tigran, I get the "feeling" that it is a transcendental function. I will work on it, intuitively, and get back to you.

Regards, Louis


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Looks like Tigran and loucal have shared an "in the zone" instant. 8)

The authors of the UB gave us great detail about the ultimaton, and they also told us that we have yet to discover an "unknown" energy.

So we are not expected to find the ultimaton, we are to discover new energy.

Transcendental or existential?


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I Must Speak wrote:
Looks like Tigran and loucal have shared an "in the zone" instant.


I'll accept that but I keep thinking about a commercial for an auto parts store named "Auto Zone". The jingle goes like this; "Get in the zone, Auto Zone". :lol:

Regards, Louis


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Hi Tigran,

This is what I've come up with so far.

(I don’t know why I cannot get graphics posted so I guess I’ll have to say 1000 words.)

A circle has one focus, the center.

The focus of the circle is pulled apart in the eternal past when the tension was created between the Deity Absolute and the Unqualified Absolute.

As you begin to have two foci, you instantly create an ellipse. At the boundary with the infinite, the ellipse becomes a parabola.

As the one of the foci of the ellipse goes to infinity, the parabola suddenly appears. The parabola has one foci at its focus and the other in infinity.

As the foci suddenly crosses over to the other side of infinity, inverse infinity, you have a hyperbola with it focus again at the center, Paradise.

In the eternal past, the three concentric circles, really one circle, exists has the holy Trinity.

Suddenly and also in the eternal past, he circle creates the ellipse as a tension repercussion between the absolutes.

Suddenly and also in the eternal past, the tension is taken further and the parabola appears.

The tension resolves as the infinite is taken to its absolute and there is a inverse of the infinite to again unify the foci into into one by the Universal Absolute. This creates the hyperbola that again can joint the circle (orthogonally) and permits time-space creations.

Since all this is an eternity function, it all "happened" (no time implied) in the eternal past in an instant and suddenly.

Because motion requires the quantum jumps of instantaneous change, the eternity function is indispensable to the quanta principle of energy emission and absorbing of energies in order to main the universe as an ongoing concern. So I have amended my previous thought about a transcendental function to now admit it could be an eternity function that "happens" between two instants of "pre-time"

I am guessing and hoping that we will only know when and if we get there. Are we there yet, are we there yet? :smile:

Regards, Louis


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