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@Ysmael

Circular simultaneity, as introduced in the UB, is referring to what Deity has already accomplished - ie. good wins 8)

As a planet, we are stuck in a place that is not a part of the circular simultaneity of Deity, so to speak,

and that is why so much of our personal time is circumscribed as "linear" for the benefit of someone other than you - linear is the perfect way to "short-circuit time"....the classic hamster spinning on a wheel....

If Agondonters could not pop into a soul vision (imagination?) of the circular simultaneity of truth beauty and goodness with origin purpose destiny while here on Urantia, we would not be Agondonters - those who can believe without seeing - which is a personal religious experience.


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I Must Speak wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=phi+spiral+in+golden+rectangle&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PUlqVKGGF-zuigL21oGwAQ&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=659


Thanks I Must Speak,

Please print the first phi spiral on the upper left and we will go through a thought experiment. This is a counter-clockwise motion as it is spiraling into zero radius. The spiral never reaches zero radius , but in real life there is a reflection and the spiral starts an outward spiral. I will refer you to the 'phi spiral in nature' (a Google site) to realize how this is the pattern for motion.

Let us spiral down, counter clockwise and notice that the first square has a radius and the arc is a 90 deg semicircle. This semicircle starts at a point at the upper left and circles to another tangent point at the end of the 90 deg arc. This arc is governed by ∏. Try to imagine that this square is actually a box. And imagine the red spiral goes from one vertex of the box to the diagonal vertex point (∛). We are now in 3D. The shortest distance between those two points is not a straight line but an arc shown in red. Time went from one instant (point) to another instant (point). Motion travelled (spiraled) to the next point where it suddenly, and in a quantum jump, reduced its radius of curvature instantaneously at that 'Point'. At the same time the space of the box instantaneously contracted. And so on and so forth. This is space contraction and energy is wound into mass.

Conversely, space expansion is the clockwise motion where mass is radiated into energy. Contraction and expansion is governed by φ, the Golden Ratio. This is a logarithmic spiral governed by Euler's number e, the base of the natural logarithm. Motion is governed by the three transcendental numbers.

Time is circular simultaneity, with space contraction and expansion. Time is succession of instants, or points of tangency with space. This is best visualized with the red spiral, motion and changing radius curvature at every 90 deg (orthogonal) of the spiral. Space is a system of associated points. Those points correspond to the points where spiral is tangent to the box and the radius of curvature changes in an instant, the eternal now.

Time exists by virtue of motion. Motion is a continuous spiral yet born of discrete quantum jumps in radius of curvature.

This is a good start but let me know if you have any comment or questions.

Regards, Louis


Last edited by loucol on Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:42 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Hi Ysmael,

YSMAEL wrote:
We will only see spatial time as circular simultaneity when we reached Paradise.


Not true Ysmael. I see it now. I see spirals everywhere in nature. I see nothing linear in nature. I see spiral galaxies, tornados, hurricanes, whirlpools, roses, trees, seashells, on and on.

Regards, Louis


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No, Louis, you don't see spatial time as circular simultaneity yet. What you are seeing are forms, not time. You've only known about time as circular simultaneity from the UB but you do not see or perceive it that way yet. That would be presumptous of you to say that. While we are still living in time and space universe, we will always perceive time as linear just like while we are still on the ground, we don't see the earth as round. We have to ascend upward until we see the curvature of the earth and be even higher to see the earth as round or circular. You have to be outside time and space universe to see the circularity of spatial time.


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Hi Ysmael,

12:5.1 Like space, time is a bestowal of Paradise, but not in the same sense, only indirectly. Time comes by virtue of motion and because mind is inherently aware of sequentiality. From a practical viewpoint, motion is essential to time, but there is no universal time unit based on motion except in so far as the Paradise-Havona standard day is arbitrarily so recognized. The totality of space respiration destroys its local value as a time source.

12:5.2 Space is not infinite, even though it takes origin from Paradise; not absolute, for it is pervaded by the Unqualified Absolute. We do not know the absolute limits of space, but we do know that the absolute of time is eternity.

12:5.3 Time and space are inseparable only in the time-space creations, the seven superuniverses. Nontemporal space (space without time) theoretically exists, but the only truly nontemporal place is Paradise area. Nonspatial time (time without space) exists in mind of the Paradise level of function.

12:5.4 The relatively motionless midspace zones impinging on Paradise and separating pervaded from unpervaded space are the transition zones from time to eternity, hence the necessity of Paradise pilgrims becoming unconscious during this transit when it is to culminate in Paradise citizenship. Time-conscious visitors can go to Paradise without thus sleeping, but they remain creatures of time.

12:5.5 Relationships to time do not exist without motion in space, but consciousness of time does. Sequentiality can consciousize time even in the absence of motion. Man's mind is less time-bound than space-bound because of the inherent nature of mind. Even during the days of the earth life in the flesh, though man's mind is rigidly space-bound, the creative human imagination is comparatively time free. But time itself is not genetically a quality of mind.

12:5.6 There are three different levels of time cognizance:

1. Mind-perceived time—consciousness of sequence, motion, and a sense of duration.
2. Spirit-perceived time—insight into motion Godward and the awareness of the motion of ascent to levels of increasing divinity.
3. Personality creates a unique time sense out of insight into Reality plus a consciousness of presence and an awareness of duration.

12:5.10 Unspiritual animals know only the past and live in the present. Spirit-indwelt man has powers of prevision (insight); he may visualize the future. Only forward-looking and progressive attitudes are personally real. Static ethics and traditional morality are just slightly superanimal. Nor is stoicism a high order of self-realization. Ethics and morals become truly human when they are dynamic and progressive, alive with universe reality.

12:5.11 The human personality is not merely a concomitant of time-and-space events; the human personality can also act as the cosmic cause of such events.


130:7.4 Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness. Time is a name given to the succession-arrangement whereby events are recognized and segregated. The universe of space is a time-related phenomenon as it is viewed from any interior position outside of the fixed abode of Paradise. The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon. In the universe of universes Paradise and its Deities transcend both time and space. On the inhabited worlds, human personality (indwelt and oriented by the Paradise Father’s spirit) is the only physically related reality which can transcend the material sequence of temporal events.

130:7.5 Animals do not sense time as does man, and even to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events.

This term "increasingly displace", is something that occurs way before arriving on Paradise. It can happen here and now. At any time, we can exchange our mind for the mind of the Master. And the Master said these words according to TUB.

130:7.6 There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. The confusion of the scientist grows out of failure to recognize the reality of space. Space is not merely an intellectual concept of the variation in relatedness of universe objects. Space is not empty, and the only thing man knows which can even partially transcend space is mind. Mind can function independently of the concept of the space-relatedness of material objects. Space is relatively and comparatively finite to all beings of creature status. The nearer consciousness approaches the awareness of seven cosmic dimensions, the more does the concept of potential space approach ultimacy. But the space potential is truly ultimate only on the absolute level.

130:7.7 It must be apparent that universal reality has an expanding and always relative meaning on the ascending and perfecting levels of the cosmos. Ultimately, surviving mortals achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe.

130:7.8 The time-space concept of a mind of material origin is destined to undergo successive enlargements as the conscious and conceiving personality ascends the levels of the universes. When man attains the mind intervening between the material and the spiritual planes of existence, his ideas of time-space will be enormously expanded both as to quality of perception and quantity of experience. The enlarging cosmic conceptions of an advancing spirit personality are due to augmentations of both depth of insight and scope of consciousness. And as personality passes on, upward and inward, to the transcendental levels of Deity-likeness, the time-space concept will increasingly approximate the timeless and spaceless concepts of the Absolutes. Relatively, and in accordance with transcendental attainment, these concepts of the absolute level are to be envisioned by the children of ultimate destiny.

Time as circular simultaneity is a perception that does not have to await the ascension to Paradise. On Paradise time-space concepts increasingly approximate the timeless and spaceless concepts of the Absolutes.

We can achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe while still in the flesh.

How do you know that I don't know? How do know that I cannot see?

Regards, Louis


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Hi IMS,

I Must Speak wrote:
Circular simultaneity, as introduced in the UB, is referring to what Deity has already accomplished - ie. good wins

As a planet, we are stuck in a place that is not a part of the circular simultaneity of Deity, so to speak,

and that is why so much of our personal time is circumscribed as "linear" for the benefit of someone other than you - linear is the perfect way to "short-circuit time"....the classic hamster spinning on a wheel....


Can you clarify these things you said? Deity is timeless and spaceless. Circular simultaneity is not an accomplishment for Deity. Deity is existential, they accomplish nothing, they are Absolute. We, on the other hand, must accomplish much. We can and do accomplish consciousness of circular simultaneity on this very planet.

What do you mean regarding "circumscribed as linear"? Is that a figure of speech? Because literally you are saying "circle as line". Please clarify.

The metaphysical fallacy is that a line is the shortest distance between two points. This is not true. As I have noted before, a line is an idea. It is not a physical reality. It is one dimensional and has no time or space. A line does not move, even if you put arrows at the ends. Nothing can move in a straight line. The only path from one point or instant to another is a circular arc. Motion must have a center. That center is unmoving Paradise.

There are no short-circuiting time. The hamster spinning on a wheel is motion. There is a center to the wheel. If the hamster where running on the floor, he/she would be spinning around the earth. That is motion also. The earth has a center.

Lucifer wished to short-circuit time. Look where it got him. To every thing turn, turn, turn. There is a season for every purpose under heaven. We must take our time. It is a gift from God.

Regards, Louis


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We can achieve identity in a seven-dimensional universe while still in the flesh.

How do you know that I don't know? How do know that I cannot see?


I admit, I do not know that you don’t know or that you cannot see time as circular simultaneity. I guess I will just have to take your word for it, but could you please illustrate what it is like seeing all events (in the past, present and future) happening all at once in the now? Could you please show how you see what I know as past, what I see as present and what I don't know as future events simultaneously in the now?


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Hi Ysmael,

YSMAEL wrote:
I admit, I do not know that you don’t know or that you cannot see time as circular simultaneity. I guess I will just have to take your word for it, but could you please illustrate what it is like seeing all events (in the past, present and future) happening all at once in the now? Could you please show how you see what I know as past, what I see as present and what I don't know as future events simultaneously in the now?


I never claimed to see all events happening all at once in the now. That would be silly. That is not what circular simultaneity means. This just means that time and space move as one. Events occur in time, not outside of time. Time is succession of instants. Time is not the instant itself. Motion is what happens between instants. Instants are the way stations between motions. Motions must have a contrasting motionless fulcrum. That fulcrum is Paradise. A seesaw must stop at instants before proceeding in opposing and simultaneous counter motion. A seesaw will not move without its fulcrum. At each instant, the fulcrum exerts it force of stillness. Every atom of the seesaw board has a center of motion, the fulcrum. Every atom in the seesaw board is moving is a circular fashion about that still center. At one side of the fulcrum that motion is clockwise, and at the other side it is counter-clockwise, simultaneously. Motion is a balanced, rhythmic, interchange happening in simultaneity.

Circular time and space in the time-space creations are inseparable. Time dilates and contracts simultaneously with space. Space is hyperbolic (hyper-cubic) and conditioned by circular time. They have an orthogonal relationship, because all relationships are orthogonal or right handed. A circle and a hyperbola are the only conic sections that can relate orthogonally. The ellipse is the only motion that can result from this relationship. I have explained myself on this before. There are infinite hyperbolas but only one that applies to motion, y=1/x. The is only one circle, r=1. There are infinite ellipses that can result from this relationship. There are infinite orbit possibilities.

No human has a past before their birth, and everyone knows the present as now. 'Now' keeps slipping into the future. Only God know the end from the beginning but we are blessed with the gift of foresight, to a degree.

Regards, Louis


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Addendum:

The earth and all rotating spheres of the cosmos rotate clockwise AND counter clockwise, simultaneously.

On earth, the northern hemisphere rotates counterclockwise while the souther hemisphere rotates clockwise, simultaneously.

The super universe level revolves around Paradise counterclockwise while the first outer space level revolves clockwise, simultaneously.

Regards, Louis


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loucol wrote:
I Must Speak wrote:
https://www.google.com/search?q=phi+spiral+in+golden+rectangle&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PUlqVKGGF-zuigL21oGwAQ&ved=0CB8QsAQ&biw=1366&bih=659


Thanks I Must Speak,

Please print the first phi spiral on the upper left and we will go through a thought experiment. This is a counter-clockwise motion as it is spiraling into zero radius. The spiral never reaches zero radius , but in real life there is a reflection and the spiral starts an outward spiral. I will refer you to the 'phi spiral in nature' (a Google site) to realize how this is the pattern for motion.

Let us spiral down, counter clockwise and notice that the first square has a radius and the arc is a 90 deg semicircle. This semicircle starts at a point at the upper left and circles to another tangent point at the end of the 90 deg arc. This arc is governed by ∏. Try to imagine that this square is actually a box. And imagine the red spiral goes from one vertex of the box to the diagonal vertex point (∛). We are now in 3D. The shortest distance between those two points is not a straight line but an arc shown in red. Time went from one instant (point) to another instant (point). Motion travelled (spiraled) to the next point where it suddenly, and in a quantum jump, reduced its radius of curvature instantaneously at that 'Point'. At the same time the space of the box instantaneously contracted. And so on and so forth. This is space contraction and energy is wound into mass.

Conversely, space expansion is the clockwise motion where mass is radiated into energy. Contraction and expansion is governed by φ, the Golden Ratio. This is a logarithmic spiral governed by Euler's number e, the base of the natural logarithm. Motion is governed by the three transcendental numbers.

Time is circular simultaneity, with space contraction and expansion. Time is succession of instants, or points of tangency with space. This is best visualized with the red spiral, motion and changing radius curvature at every 90 deg (orthogonal) of the spiral. Space is a system of associated points. Those points correspond to the points where spiral is tangent to the box and the radius of curvature changes in an instant, the eternal now.

Time exists by virtue of motion. Motion is a continuous spiral yet born of discrete quantum jumps in radius of curvature.

This is a good start but let me know if you have any comment or questions.

Regards, Louis


I do not disagree or have questions - it is an elegant discovery of the "process", for lack of a better way to put it, of creation - as mathematicians needed to discover it - LOL

I'm going to refresh myself with the discussion on "space" in the UB, because "space" is still being created for what will be the outer ring of creation that Agondonters will be administrating.

@Ysmael,

We are heading to Paradise, which is already a built home. That's what I meant by "accomplishment of Deity".

And I used the FIRST definition of circumscribed - cir·cum·scribe
ˈsərkəmˌskrīb/Submit
verb
past tense: circumscribed; past participle: circumscribed
1.
restrict (something) within limits.
"their movements were strictly monitored and circumscribed"
synonyms: restrict, limit, keep within bounds, curb, confine, restrain; More

Just an FYI, I tend to organize my meanderings into uncharted waters into the context of:

Origin, Purpose, Destiny

and I am immensely attracted to:

(spiritual) Truth, Beauty, and Goodness

How God - First Source and Center - creates IS "science", not "math". The sun shines on the just and the unjust....how God solved material and mechanistic problems for us was an act of love - spirit came first.


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Hi I Must Speak,

I Must Speak wrote:
And I used the FIRST definition of circumscribed - cir·cum·scribe
ˈsərkəmˌskrīb/Submit
verb
past tense: circumscribed; past participle: circumscribed
1.
restrict (something) within limits.
"their movements were strictly monitored and circumscribed"
synonyms: restrict, limit, keep within bounds, curb, confine, restrain; More


I am very glad that you presented this definition of circumscribed. It leads me to further explain myself. I use geometry as a tool of communication and understanding only. When you used the phrase, "circumscribed as linear" I responded by saying that this was a good as saying "circle as line"

Well, guess what? A circle of infinite radius is a line, geometrically (r=∞). The Infinite uses circular time to bound (curb, confine, limit) space in space-time creations.

In Euler's Identity formula e^∏i + 1 = 0.

e, Euler's number, governs space motion and it is bound by the power of ∏ which governs circular time. (i) is a term that tells us that this power pertains to their orthogonal relationship. Space is bound by unity on either side of zero, the fulcrum of +1 and -1.

Space, being hyperbolic (y=1/x) reflects at unity. This occurs when x and y are one. This is when energy and mass are equal (E/M = 1) This is when space-time reflects at full contraction. Space reflects at full expansion when the unpervaded space reservoirs are emptied. This is when energy is maximal in the universe and mass is minimal. The energy transmuting unpervaded space to pervaded space has ceased as unpervaded space which carries these forces and energies from Paradise is exhausted for this cycle.

Origin, Purpose, Destiny

Origin, Paradise, is purposeful in creation (motion) and creation's destiny is Paradise. Origin and destiny are one. Motion patterns this perfectly. Motion begins at a point and circles to the next point. All points are one point. Origin is destiny. Motion is the circle of life. Motion is the journey.

Regards, Louis


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@loucal,

I put quotes around the word "linear" when I said it was circumscribed because I did not want the "linear" we were discussing to be confused with linear gravity forces.

Page 136 of the UB - "....The universe is highly predictable only in the quantitative or gravity-measurement sense; even the primal physical forces are not responsive to linear gravity, nor are the higher mind meanings and true spirit values of ultimate universe realities...."

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about Origin and Destiny being Paradise - it's the "purpose" that will continue to be revealed in the space being created now.

same page, "....Qualitatively, the universe is not highly predictable as regards new association of forces, either physical, mindal, or spiritual, although many such combinations of energies or forces become partially predictable when subjected to critical observation. When matter, mind, and spirit are unified by creature personality, we are unable fully to predict the decisions of such a freewill being...."


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Space acting as a spiral is that space that is controlled by linear gravity.

Time is still used to measure the motion.


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I Must Speak wrote:
Space acting as a spiral is that space that is controlled by linear gravity.

Time is still used to measure the motion.


Hi I Must Speak,

130:7.6 There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space. The confusion of the scientist grows out of failure to recognize the reality of space. Space is not merely an intellectual concept of the variation in relatedness of universe objects. Space is not empty, and the only thing man knows which can even partially transcend space is mind. Mind can function independently of the concept of the space-relatedness of material objects. Space is relatively and comparatively finite to all beings of creature status. The nearer consciousness approaches the awareness of seven cosmic dimensions, the more does the concept of potential space approach ultimacy. But the space potential is truly ultimate only on the absolute level.

But also remember that TUB says that to totality of space respirations destroys motion as a local time source. What that means is the our cesium atomic clock is ultimately not reliable. So, space is measured by time but time cannot measure motion because motion cannot measure time. Time exists by virtue of motion.

Space is not gravity responsive. Gravity is the sole control of energy-matter. Space, however, is in matter and a property of matter. So, even though gravity controls matter, the space as a property of matter tags along, so to speak.

Regards, Louis


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Time is used to measure the motion inside the space that "tags along" with matter that is under linear gravity control.

There is no "time" inside the space of the ultimaton.

Page 141, "....The entire science of mathematics, the whole domain of philosophy, the highest physics or chemistry, could not predict or know that the union of two gaseous hydrogen atoms with one gaseous oxygen atom would result in a new and qualitatively superadditive substance, liquid water. The understanding knowledge of this one physiochemical phenomena should have prevented the development of materialistic philosophy and mechanistic cosmology...."

Should have, but didn't.

So where are we going with this space is a spiral motion discussion....are snowflakes a manifestation of spiral space under linear gravity control or an auto-generated fractal formula derived outside of space, time, and gravity...the primal energy not under gravity control but still in space in the Now?


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